30-06, Cast Bullet, Unique


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Hungry1
October 27, 2012, 11:29 PM
Anyone have information about 165 gr RNFP Cast Bullet, plain base, over Unique in 30-06?

I bought some Missouri bullet .309s for my Marlin 336 Micro Groove. I need .311s and am considering loading these up in my Springfield 30-06. The Powder I have on hand is Unique.

Any information appreciated.

Thanks.

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blarby
October 28, 2012, 12:16 AM
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=679754&highlight=unique+rifle

35 Whelen
October 28, 2012, 03:24 AM
Anyone have information about 165 gr RNFP Cast Bullet, plain base, over Unique in 30-06?

I bought some Missouri bullet .309s for my Marlin 336 Micro Groove. I need .311s and am considering loading these up in my Springfield 30-06. The Powder I have on hand is Unique.

Any information appreciated.

Thanks.
I've loaded gobs of 30-06 with cast bullets and shotgun/pistol powder (Bullseye, Red Dot, AA#7, AL2400), and they all worked very, very well, but never used Unique. I have however loaded quite a bit of it in the .303 British with cast and jacketed bullets. 12.0 grs. gave really good accuracy. That load will be quite light in your 30-06.
My RCBS Cast Bullet manual for the 30-06 lists a 175 gr. bullet with 15.0 grs. of Unique for 1607 fps and 17.0 grs. for 1735 fps.
Good luck

A Pause for the Coz
October 28, 2012, 05:30 AM
I use Unique some and it works fine. But If I may suggest, try 2400 with cast.

I have used Unique, Universal, Bluedot, Herco, pistol powders in my 30 cal rifles and have found useful loads to shoot.
But none of them compare to the groups I get with 2400.
Ok maybe I should not say groups. i get real tight groups with my 30-30 using 8.5 gr Unique. But they only go about 1200 fps.
I get the same group with 16gr of 2400 but they are zipping in the mid 1700 fps range.

One other thing to note. What is the hardness of those cast bullets you have?
I have some 170 gr .310 lazer cast. They are 23bn.
I could not get a hard cast bullet to fly with any pistol powder loads. The bullets just dont expand to fill the bore properly.( too hard)
They shoot just fine gas checked ahead of Rifle powder like H4895 Just need to kick them in the butt.

They do shoot accurately ahead of Trail Boss. Trail Boss has some VOODOO going on for cast bullets.
It blasts hard but pushes soft.

I have found the same results with what ever rifle I have tried.
30-30, 308 win, 8mm Mauser, 7.62x54 and 7.62x39

Softer lead, WW's works good for pistol powders,
Harder lead for Rifle powders.
Trail Boss is the wild card. it shoots them all well, just not fast.

wgaynor
October 28, 2012, 11:51 AM
Load Data from Lyman's Cast Bullet Handbook:

160 gr (#2 Alloy) 3.050" OAL BC .245
Unique 18grains @1853fps starting load
MAX LOAD IS 24 GRAINS AT 2182FPS

170 gr (#2 alloy) 3.013OAL BC .202
Unique 12 grains@1508fps starting load
MAX LOAD IS 16.5 GRAINS @1842

Hope that helps. It will give you a place to start.

I recommend slugging your barrel first because an undersized projectile can cause leading (along with other contributing factors.

Hungry1
October 28, 2012, 12:33 PM
Thanks for the info fellas. I appreciate the powder recommendations too. :)

A Pause for the Coz, the box is labeled Brinell 18, optimized for .30-.30 lever guns.

Gunnerboy
October 29, 2012, 01:11 PM
Awesome just what i was gonna ask about, i got a bannerman mosin in 3006 and have unique and cast bullets laying around.....

wgaynor
October 29, 2012, 08:00 PM
I can't recommend enough the importance of slugging your barrel first. It saves you from experiencing an exercise in futility and in scrubbing lead out of a barrel.

Hungry1
October 29, 2012, 08:15 PM
I can't recommend enough the importance of slugging your barrel first. It saves you from experiencing an exercise in futility and in scrubbing lead out of a barrel.

Too late, thanks though. :)

All part of my learning curve I guess. The brush wrapped in Chore Boy helped. :D

Question:

I'm thinking of using a different powder. One that will give me a little more velocity and help seal the bore. I'm thinking 2400 or maybe IMR 4198. I have no experience with either.

I'm not using gas checks with these bullets.

Any advice, criticism or suggestions?

Thanks

wgaynor
October 29, 2012, 08:39 PM
I wouldn't worry about switching powders yet. First, do you know your bore size? Did you size your bullet (if cast yourself)? If you cast your own, did you apply the right type and amount of lube?

Keep in mind that an undersized bullet is one of the biggest factors in barrel leading. The others are: too much pressure/velocity, copper fouling in barrel, out of round bullet, wrong type or not enough bullet lube.

Edit: Just reread your original post. Did you slug your barrel?

Hungry1
October 29, 2012, 08:50 PM
I wouldn't worry about switching powders yet. First, do you know your bore size? Did you size your bullet (if cast yourself)? If you cast your own, did you apply the right type and amount of lube?

Keep in mind that an undersized bullet is one of the biggest factors in barrel leading. The others are: too much pressure/velocity, copper fouling in barrel, out of round bullet, wrong type or not enough bullet lube.

Edit: Just reread your original post. Did you slug your barrel?
Yea, I got a measurement of .3095. I ordered some Hunter Supply .311 bullets to try out. I haven't started casting my own yet.

Reason I'm asking for powder recommendations is that I ordered some Unique from Midway a while back that was "lost" (stolen) in transit. They'll most likely end up sending a replacement out after UPS "looks" for it :rolleyes: and I'm thinking of giving another a try as I'm set with about 4.5 lbs of Unique.

wgaynor
October 29, 2012, 09:49 PM
You'll have good results with the .311 sized bullet. Give me a few and I'll look in my load book for you on the powders. I'm casting bullets right now.

Hungry1
October 29, 2012, 10:11 PM
You'll have good results with the .311 sized bullet. Give me a few and I'll look in my load book for you on the powders. I'm casting bullets right now.
Thanks. No rush. Appreciate the input. I've got a couple books too. :)

wgaynor
October 29, 2012, 10:23 PM
160 grain #2 alloy 3.050" OAL
IMR 4198
Starting Load: 27.0 grains @ 1940 fps with 19,600 pressure
Max Load:37 grains @2421fps with 36,000 pressure
No loads with 2400 listed under this one

170 grains #2 alloy 3.013" OAL
IMR 4198
Starting Load: 25 grains @1729 fps
Max Load 38.5 grains @2501 fps

2400
Starting Load of 18.5 grains@ 1635 fps
Max Load of 29.5 grains @2296 fps

Some friendly advice here... If you are using a plain base bullet (no gascheck), you'll want to keep your velocities below 1500 fps for the best success of having no leading and good accuracy. If your velocity is above that, the bullet construction is not strong enough to keep it from just skidding down the barrel instead of having a spin put upon it.

Another school of thought is that the increased pressure that is associated with those velocities above 1500fps will deform the base of the bullet too much and cause gas to pass along the side of the side of the bullet. This can also cause leading.

Rule of thumb... plain base should be kept below 1500fps

I also highly recommend the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook. While it is not the complete source for cast bullet loads, it is more than enough to get you started with techniques, info, and load data.

GLOOB
October 30, 2012, 01:54 AM
I'm evaluating Unique with 130 gr cast WW's in 7mm-08. No leading, at all, so far. But accuracy has been pretty sucky. Not sure if it's the velocity or the lack of gas check. I've tried from 4 gr - 12.5 gr. The min suggested on Castpic for a 168gr bullet is 13 gr, or so, so maybe I just need to bump it up a bit. But then I'd probably start using a gas check, and I already have a good load for that; 24.0 gr H335 groups nice and tight.

But I hear ya. Even though I have way more H335 on hand than Unique, I'm tempted to continue playing with Unique. Even with a gas check, 14-16 gr of Unique is a lot cheaper than 24 gr H335. :)

wgaynor
October 30, 2012, 08:40 AM
I don't see any load data here for the 7mm-08 remmington. I'll have to look in the other books. Do you know the velocity that you're pushing the bulelt?

GLOOB
October 30, 2012, 04:38 PM
http://www.castpics.net/project2/CastDatalist.php?start=6181

This was the hardest data I was working off of, and it doesn't list my bullet weight or my powder. I don't have a chrono. With my H335 load, I'd guess 1800-1900 fps, mebbe? That seems to be the sweet spot, looking at these figures. When I bumped the charge up to 25.5 gr, I couldn't even keep them on a 10"x10" box at 40 yards. (And curiously, there was no leading at all, even though I shot up all 40 of these duds). At 24 gr, I was pegging golf balls out to 40 yards. I only put up one paper target at roughly 35 yards, to verify POA. I was shooting from a chair, no bench. First two shots were touching, a half inch below the bullseye. Third shot was right on the upper center of the bullseye, but I thought it was a flyer, so I took a fourth shot; it cloverleafed with the first two.

With Unique, they only list a load for a 168 gr bullet, 13-15 grains. (NOT 145 gr boolit! Sorry, bad memory/info on my previous post. Edited). That might give you a clue for your rifle. At 12.5 grs, I was probably well short for a 130gr boolit. But like wgaynor recommends, I was trying to keep my velocity low, using no checks. At 4 gr, I can't even start to guess velocity. I was just trying to see if I could shoot without ears on, but I chickened out and never found out. I still remember that one time when I thought to myself, "how loud can a 22 pistol possibly be without ears..."

Check out the 7x61 Unique load on that page. 2016fps! It looks like Unique can be used for full velocity cast loads in the right chamberings.

trixter
October 30, 2012, 07:22 PM
I have the 155gr version of that same boolit, and I have been using 12 gr of Unique. So far so good.

wgaynor
October 30, 2012, 08:14 PM
Unique is a unique powder isn't it :neener: !

Hungry1
October 31, 2012, 07:43 PM
Unique is a unique powder isn't it :neener: !
It sure is! I'm new to reloading and have used it exclusively for .45 acp, 9mm, 38/357 and .30-.30.

I got my .311" 30 cal bullets in today, they worked great in the Marlin .30-.30. Had to crank up the elevation and still don't have enough though. Needed to use some "Kentucky Elevation" by aiming at the orange sticky :)

50 yards sitting at a picnic table, iron sights, hasty sling.

http://i1125.photobucket.com/albums/l585/wormsaw/001-13.jpg

wgaynor
October 31, 2012, 08:39 PM
Looks good. What kind of sights are you using? Peeps or irons? How much Unique did you use? I currently have an 8lb jug of military surplus powder similar to unique that I use. Will probably take me a long long time to use it up. Great for reduced loads, plain based cast loads, and pistol loads.

GLOOB
October 31, 2012, 08:50 PM
Might be of interest you y'all. I was cleaning up and found a Lyman guide for 270 and 7mm calibers. At a quick glance, it looks like they list a Unique loading for cast bullets in all of the cartridges. It's a little booklet the previous owner gave me when I bought the rifle. I dunno, but it looks like a free guide that might have come with some Lyman dies/molds or something.

Now that I mention it, I wonder if Alliant's free guide doesn't also have this kind of load info. Sadly, I just put in an order at PW and I forgot to add the free guides to my cart, like I've been meaning to. They cost $0.01 cent each, provided by the powder manufacturers. I was thinking it would probably be just the same stuff they post online, but who knows?

Hungry1
October 31, 2012, 08:59 PM
Looks good. What kind of sights are you using? Peeps or irons? How much Unique did you use? I currently have an 8lb jug of military surplus powder similar to unique that I use. Will probably take me a long long time to use it up. Great for reduced loads, plain based cast loads, and pistol loads.
Thanks
I've got a set of Skinner Guide Sights on it. http://www.skinnersights.com/1895_sight_4.html

That load was:
8 gr Unique
Hunter Supply 165gr RNFP
CCI 200 Primer
COAL 2.50
Mixed brass trimmed to 2.030

I'm expecting my 30-06 dies to come in this week. I'll give both the .309s and .311s a try in my 03 Springfield and see which is more accurate.

Hungry1
October 31, 2012, 09:04 PM
Might be of interest you y'all. I was cleaning up and found a Lyman guide for 270 and 7mm calibers. At a quick glance, it looks like they list a Unique loading for cast bullets in all of the cartridges. It's a little booklet the previous owner gave me when I bought the rifle. I dunno, but it looks like a free guide that might have come with some Lyman dies/molds or something.

Now that I mention it, I wonder if Alliant's free guide doesn't also have this kind of load info. Sadly, I just put in an order at PW and I forgot to add the free guides to my cart, like I've been meaning to. They cost $0.01 cent each, provided by the powder manufacturers. I was thinking it would probably be just the same stuff they post online, but who knows?
I just got that Alliant guide with my last PV order. The cast boolit loads are limited to cowboy action pistol. :)

wgaynor
October 31, 2012, 10:05 PM
I have a bunch of files on PDF format for reloading jacketed and Cast bullets. If you want them, send me a pm and I'll send them to you.

Also, check out http://www.lasc.us/Brennan_6-1_CastBulletReloading.htm

Look at the "cookbook loads for any gun" section.

popper
November 1, 2012, 05:56 PM
My results with unique & RD 170 gr PB is about the same as yours. I'm trying 2400 but it isn't much better. I could get cloverleafs @ 50 with 18-19 gr H4895 - but it feels like a real rifle load, not a 22LR. Need to cast more PB with softer aloy.

Hungry1
November 1, 2012, 07:51 PM
I just loaded up 50 rounds of the .309"s in 30-06 cases with 10 each of 8-12 gr of Unique. Going to shoot them tomorrow from my 03 Springfield. That rifle is a tack driver with commercial jacketed rounds.

We'll see what we see. :)

Hungry1
November 2, 2012, 01:01 PM
I just loaded up 50 rounds of the .309"s in 30-06 cases with 10 each of 8-12 gr of Unique. Going to shoot them tomorrow from my 03 Springfield. That rifle is a tack driver with commercial jacketed rounds.

We'll see what we see. :)
Results: Disastrous :barf:

... Back to the drawing board. I'll give the .311"s a try next.

wgaynor
November 2, 2012, 08:29 PM
... happens with cast bullets. A bit more time intensive in finding the right load, but once you do, it's a great feeling.

Hungry1
November 2, 2012, 08:46 PM
Got the .311"s loaded up and just removed about a pound of lead from my barrel. :rolleyes:

dardascastbullets
November 2, 2012, 09:00 PM
Get some 4831 and Dacron filler. From memory I used to use 48 grains of 4831 and .5 grains of Dacron. The Dacron tuft was placed on top of the powder column. My old time shooting buddy showed me how to do this successfully. We would shoot 10X's prone at 200 yards with our 30-06 highpower over the course guns. It was a blast to shoot offhand also and clean the target! This is one setback when shooting into a head wind though - you will see the fine 'snow' coming back at you. It is no problem though. Make sure that you size your bullets to at least 0.002" over the groove diameter. And use a proven cast bullet lubricant. Oh, and use the Lyman 2 Step M Expander Die - do not flare the case mouths! This is the most important thing to remember for loading cast bullets successfully!

Hungry1
November 2, 2012, 09:53 PM
Get some 4831 and Dacron filler. From memory I used to use 48 grains of 4831 and .5 grains of Dacron. The Dacron tuft was placed on top of the powder column. My old time shooting buddy showed me how to do this successfully. We would shoot 10X's prone at 200 yards with our 30-06 highpower over the course guns. It was a blast to shoot offhand also and clean the target! This is one setback when shooting into a head wind though - you will see the fine 'snow' coming back at you. It is no problem though. Make sure that you size your bullets to at least 0.002" over the groove diameter. And use a proven cast bullet lubricant. Oh, and use the Lyman 2 Step M Expander Die - do not flare the case mouths! This is the most important thing to remember for loading cast bullets successfully!
Thanks for the info.

I am expanding the case mouths with a Lee expander die and then roll crimping.

Were you shooting gas checked bullets? I'm not.

I'm using Unique, which I've read is not position sensitive. Any input on that?

wgaynor
November 3, 2012, 04:37 AM
I've used small charges of unique in .30-.30 and 7.62x54r when shooting plain base bullets and have not had problems with the position of the powder in the case. Doesn't mean I won't in the future, but hasn't happened yet.

GLOOB
November 3, 2012, 04:51 AM
Were you shooting gas checked bullets? I'm not.
Well, I hoped you'd have better luck. I think I've given up on non GC'd in my 708.

I've loaded up a bunch of GC'd at 12,13,14,15, and 16 Unique. If that don't work, I guess I'll have to give up on Unique, too.

I am expanding the case mouths with a Lee expander die and then roll crimping.

This is one thing I'm not sad to leave behind. Using GC, at least you don't have to do all that.

dardascastbullets
November 3, 2012, 07:29 AM
Again, if you want to have success with your cast bullets, do not flare your case mouths! And do not crimp! There is no need to crimp! The bullets will be held in the case neck via neck tension providing of course that you are using the correct bushing. Slow burning powders such as 4831 produced excellent results for me (this was a result of great teaching from world class high power shooters). I was taught to use the Lyman 411366 with the Hornady gas check. And we weighed each bullet to maintain a Standard Deviation of 0.5 or less. It was meticulous but the results were worth it. Again, do not flare the case mouths and get the Lyman 2 Step M Expander Die. You too will realize excellent results.

wgaynor
November 3, 2012, 06:02 PM
Care to give a reason why. Most of us are nerds and like to know the reason behind things.

GLOOB
November 3, 2012, 11:31 PM
I would guess expanding the case with the M die and not crimping prevents the bullet from being swaged down.

I wonder if that is why my non GC loads didnt group and all my loads with unique and GC shot well today. Even though the charges overlapped. I dont have an M die. The check may be protecting the base of the bullet during seating.

FTR i flared my nonGC with a punch. No crimp. I didnt do either with my GC bullets and they seated fine using a Hornady seating die.

Hungry1
November 4, 2012, 10:41 AM
I had much better results today with the .311"s and 8-12 gr of Unique.

I found that as the charge increased, the impact was lowered.

A few flyers, but most grouped well with a group of about 3 1/2" at 50 yards. No significant change other than elevation with charges of 9-12 gr.

My next goal is to try and get out to 100 yards.

Duckdog
November 4, 2012, 11:11 AM
I am wondering why you would not want ot flare the casemouth a tad?? I use a Lee universal expander and have excellent results. I also do put a crimp on every round I shoot.

I shoot some '06' with Unique and have pretty good results, but for hunting I use 31 gr of XMP 5744 and a Lee 170 gr LFNGC bullet at 2100 fps with outstanding results.

Keep messing with it and you'll get the load you want. Unique will work with pretty much any cast bullet you can come up with and it will almost always perform very well. I load and cast for over 25 calibers and shoot Unique in most of them. If I were to only get one powder, it would be the one.

GLOOB
November 4, 2012, 11:25 AM
I don't wanna do it because it's an extra step! And if you overdo it, then you need to crimp. And that's another extra step!

BTW, Duckdog. How do you crimp your rifle rounds? Is there any other game in town for bottleneck rifle rounds other than the Lee FCD?

Dardascastbullets mentioned using an M die. So he is recommending a different kind of flare. That die does a differential flare that helps the bullet seat straight. I'd like to give that a try, but it is caliber specific and it still requires an extra step.

I find Hornady's New Dimension rifle seating die does a really good job with my cast bullets. It has a sleeve that drops down and holds the bullet straight. This keeps the gas check squarely over the case mouth, and it has seated every one of my GC boolits, beautifully, without any flare. I actually thought it was gimmicky when I was using only jacketed bullets, but it's pure gold for my cast bullets. With my Lee die, I need a little flare to keep the bullet from tipping inside the die.

Duckdog
November 4, 2012, 11:52 AM
An M die is nothing more than a caliber specific die to put the same flare the Lee universal expander does. You can roll crimp those rounds lightly with the seating die. I do that and also use the LFC depending on the caliber. I am a believer in trying to get the same starting pressure if possible, and crimping helps that, IMO. The Lee dies have a floating seating stem to help keep the bullet straight. You are correct in that a flare dramatically helps keep the bullet square, as well as prevents shaving. I always slightly flare my cases to help seating, seeing that I crimp. I actually bought an M die before my Lee expander and I can't say I liked it, so I went to the Lee die. All you can do is mess with it and do what ends up working for you.

GLOOB
November 4, 2012, 11:58 AM
Well, the M die has a step in it. It's supposed to expand the mouth of the case into a diameter just big enough to accept a bullet. But not with an angled flare. So it is supposed to be technically different than the flare you get from a Universal expander.

All I knows about the Hornady seating die is it works for my particular 7mm boolits with no flare. And my Lee die doesn't work with my particular 223 boolits, unless I flare. The boolits quite often tip and then a lot of very obviously bad things follow. When I can keep the bullet balanced just right, it seats fine, just like the Hornady does every time. When it tips, the gas check can gouge the case mouth and boolit scraped and "seated"... at a 20 degree angle. Yeah, that bad!

Thanks for the tip on crimping with regular seating dies. I dunno how I didn't know that.

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