no brainer kiss nfa trust thoughts


PDA






kimbershot
October 29, 2012, 04:32 PM
i am not a lawyer but i can read. my home state of south carolina permits folks to "craft" their own trust language as long as it meets certain criteria (trust code sections). nfa has criteria for "legal trusts". as long as you marry the criteria of both entities, --what's the issue?

i keep on seeing many caveats issued in the forums about situations making the trust illegal--and the boogey man usually has some kind of dog in the fight (read fee based lawyer). so--if you can read and write--keep it simple. if the trust is state legal--what the heck?

i would design a trust that was nfa specific--ie sbr builds. i would be settlor/trustee, a relative would be successor trustee and another relative would be beneficiary. all parties would be legally able to maintain control of the weapon (nfa legal acquisition--disposition) and of course, the weapon would be legal in sc. i could also stipulate the criteria for disposition (ie. convert weapon to street legal) and sell it, with proceeds going to the beneficiary.

my wording again, would conform to the trust code criteria, but i could dispense with much of the gobbledgook filler that you might find in willmaker or legal beagle boilerplate. :evil:

If you enjoyed reading about "no brainer kiss nfa trust thoughts" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Aaron Baker
October 29, 2012, 06:22 PM
Well, I'm sure you won't be interested in anything I have to say, since I'm a "fee-based lawyer." On the other hand, I can't legally practice in South Carolina, so I couldn't craft a trust for you for a fee, even if I wanted to. Also, I went to law school, where I studied things like trusts. And you clearly did not.

I'm not trying to be a jerk, but the reason that you might want to consult a lawyer is that this statement:

"all parties would be legally able to maintain control of the weapon"

is entirely wrong. And could land someone in federal prison for a lengthy sentence.

Not all lawyers are qualified to advise you regarding NFA and trusts. I'd say there are very few who understand both sets of laws.

With all of that said, there is no reason that a layperson can't craft their own trust. But you need to understand the potential pitfalls of both proper trust crafting and the NFA statutes, and it doesn't appear that you do.

Aaron

kimbershot
October 29, 2012, 06:52 PM
my trust would be dedicated for a sbr build.

"all parties" means i control who in my family can control a weapon via my trust. as single trustee--i alone would have access to a weapon (sole trustee). my "relatives" (son-successor trustee and my wife-beneficiary) can fill out a 4473 with no qualms--and would legally qualify to purchase a handgun-which would be a precursor to obtaining a nfa weapon.

should i become incapacitated or die--i would set the trust up to direct that the sbr configuration be immediately returned to a standard rifle (16"-26"). the rifle could either be sold or parted out--it would be removed from the registry.:eek:

i do understand the ramifications of nfa statutes and have several "toys" on form 4's.

i am not trying to cramp anyone's style for pride of authorship but if it's legal?

2000Yards
October 29, 2012, 06:56 PM
Kimbershot - what you suggest, that you can read the statutes and therefore should be able to craft a trust according to that, is a nice idea but there is at least one issue with that. The issue is that a very great amount of what makes a trust valid (or invalid) is not what is in the statute (or code), it is what has occurred in the courts of that state for many decades. It's not like a building/electrical/plumbing code - if you have the correct code section and you follow what's written then you're good to go. With any legal document there is a basic foundation in statutory language, but the rest is court doctrine and judge-made law borne from hundreds or thousands of cases. You don't go to an attorney to get him to read the code for you, you go because the attorney reads every relevant case that arises in their area of law and has been doing that since they started practicing, and understands how to apply all of that to your situation.

Regardless, best of luck with your trust.

2KYDS

Aaron Baker
October 29, 2012, 07:34 PM
Sorry for the confusion. In context, it sounded like you were saying that the grantor, trustee, successor trustee and beneficiary could all possess the NFA item in the trust.

If you understand trust law and NFA well enough, there's no reason not to draft your own trust. Unfortunately, the items you already own on a Form 4 would have to be transferred to the trust by paying another $200 tax. I'm not sure that I would start a trust if I already owned a number of NFA items.

Aaron

Girodin
October 29, 2012, 11:09 PM
I'm an attorney. I do not currently do trust work. It is my opinion that it is worth the money to pay an attorney with expertise in the area to craft your trust. Generally speaking, there are often a lot of traps for the unknowing in the law. Words don't always mean what an untrained person would take them to mean. There can be issues you wouldn't even think of. I'm an attorney, I graduated magna cum laude from law school, I got an A in Trusts, and I would still pay someone to do a trust for me. Sometimes the more you know the more you realize what you don't know.

Case books are chuck full of cases in which people thought they had created a trust that was legal and/or would accomplish their objectives but unwittingly made one with issues.

Just my opinion, take it for what its worth.

Flyincedar
October 29, 2012, 11:30 PM
I used to have a link saved to an article where ATF approved a transfer, then later decided the trust was not valid, which put the person in unlawful posession of an NFA item, even though they had initially approved it. Unfortunately, after getting a new computer, I no longer have that link. Maybe someone else does. Not something I would wanna play with.

I have friends who have crafted their own trusts, but thats not for me. i use the LLC route for personal stuff, but if I were to ever use a trust, I would pay someone to do it.

wacki
October 29, 2012, 11:45 PM
At the very least use the trust software to create a trust. A NFA trust cost me $300 through a specialized lawyer. If you look around you can find a similar price. If you can afford a tax stamp you can afford that.

I know just enough about the law to realize it's dumb to mess with federal agencies.... they have their own legal systems that seem to work outside of the U.S. Constitution. I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying it's the ugly reality.

kimbershot
October 30, 2012, 05:45 AM
i have will maker--it's an outline. i know the state code (sc) as it pertains to revocable living trusts and i am familiar with nfa requirements.

i have seen the posts that the aft could/would "declare" a trust as invalid--but nothing concrete as to why--hence the boogeyman. my take is that someone involved did something after the fact that wasn't kosher.

so what makes a nfa trust invalid after a stamp is issued? that is the key to the discussion.:what:

tnelson31
October 30, 2012, 09:16 AM
i have will maker--it's an outline. i know the state code (sc) as it pertains to revocable living trusts and i am familiar with nfa requirements.

i have seen the posts that the aft could/would "declare" a trust as invalid--but nothing concrete as to why--hence the boogeyman. my take is that someone involved did something after the fact that wasn't kosher.

so what makes a nfa trust invalid after a stamp is issued? that is the key to the discussion.:what:
Did you read 2000Yard's post?

Bubbles
October 30, 2012, 10:50 AM
IANA attorney. I'm an FFL/SOT and we do a lot of NFA transfers since our fees are the lowest around.

For trusts, the only F4's that have ever gotten kicked back for being in a "problem status" have been for the DIY'ers. If there's a problem you - not me - have 30 days to fix it or you start the transfer process all over again.

Pay a few hundred and have an attorney draft it. It'll be cheaper in the long run.

NOLAEMT
October 30, 2012, 11:01 AM
That gobbledgook filler as you call it is there for a reason, so to omit it from a trust because you don't understand it is akin to my patients that don't take their medicine because they don't understand their condition.

It is a case of "what you don't know can hurt you."

2000Yards
October 30, 2012, 02:05 PM
i have will maker--it's an outline. i know the state code (sc) as it pertains to revocable living trusts and i am familiar with nfa requirements.

i have seen the posts that the aft could/would "declare" a trust as invalid--but nothing concrete as to why--hence the boogeyman. my take is that someone involved did something after the fact that wasn't kosher.

so what makes a nfa trust invalid after a stamp is issued? that is the key to the discussion.

The consensus - actually the only advice you're receiving - is to hire an attorney. You seem intent on doing this yourself, and that's your right. I've certainly dabbled in areas of law far outside my expertise, knowing that if I screwed up I'd face the consequences. That's only ever meant I'd be out of pocket some amount of money, and I accepted that.

To others who may consider this path: you aren't risking just money, you risk your freedom. When non-trust lawyers say they would hire a trust attorney for this - weigh that very carefully. Do you think a lawyer doesn't want to save a few hundred dollars by doing something him or herself, unless there is a very good reason not to?

dprice3844444
October 30, 2012, 02:29 PM
if you screw it up,you have nobody to sue.laws change.pay the money to do it right the first time.lawyers fees to defend against atf will cost you way more.

google nfa trusts

jmorris
October 30, 2012, 05:38 PM
I did a quicken trust then had two lawyers look at it. No change and no problems...yet.

FWIW if every lawyer were perfect, there would be a lot less of them.

medalguy
October 30, 2012, 08:13 PM
I am not an attorney although we have two in the family. I paid an attorney who specializes in NFA trusts to do my trust. I could have gotten it done for free from an oil and gas attorney and a family law attorney, but they are not specialists in trusts. Believe me, it's worth paying a few bucks for it to be sure it's done right, and you have someone to go back to when (not if) there are any questions about the trust.

By the way, to the OP, do you do your own dental work? You can read a book and understand how it's done, but practice and experience is another thing entirely.

PBR Streetgang
October 30, 2012, 08:53 PM
The cost of a trust is well worth it if you plan to purchase multiple NFA items.

I could have done my own but I wanted a pro to do it so there were no problems....
In cases of specific use get a attorney that knows the ins and outs of NFA trusts

I worked with a lot of lawyers in my time and all of them said the same thing. "as an attorney never defend yourself if you are the defendant. A attorney that defends himself has a fool for a client."

jmorris
October 30, 2012, 09:01 PM
I guess none of you guys did a form 1.

Aaron Baker
October 30, 2012, 09:39 PM
I did a quicken trust then had two lawyers look at it. No change and no problems...yet.

FWIW if every lawyer were perfect, there would be a lot less of them.

Quicken Willmaker will make valid trusts. And if you used valid people/parties as settlor/grantor, trustee(s) and beneficiaries, then the attorneys that looked at it won't have anything to complain about.

But Quicken will also make a completely invalid trust. Since you ran it by two attorneys, you know yours was valid. If someone uses Quicken to make a trust and doesn't also run it by two attorneys, what guarantee does he have?

Beyond that, an NFA trust doesn't have to have language that's specific to NFA issues, but if you don't know whether your successor trustee(s) and beneficiaries are familiar with the requirements of federal firearms laws, having language that directs them on how to remain complaint with the law isn't a bad idea.

As for the original topic of the post, I'll just say this: if you think you know enough to write your own NFA trust, go for it. You've got no one to hurt but you and your family if you're wrong. But don't expect experienced NFA trust attorneys to give you all the information you need over the internet. Most attorneys can only practice in one state where they're licensed, don't want to risk their own professional liability by giving out free legal advice, and aren't gonna spell out everything you need to know to do something they went to three years of law school to learn.

Aaron

Zane
October 31, 2012, 10:17 PM
i keep on seeing many caveats issued in the forums about situations making the trust illegal--and the boogey man usually has some kind of dog in the fight (read fee based lawyer). so--if you can read and write--keep it simple. if the trust is state legal--what the heck?

When I wanted to set up an NFA trust, my attorney wife told me find a lawyer to draw it up. She simultaneously whipped off 3 differences between my state's trust law and other states. At least one of those differences wouldn't invalidate the trust, it was just that the same wording means something very different in this state than it does in most. She has never done trust work and she recalls those difference from her bar prep class. Her point was that there are potential mines out there and that a few hundred bucks was short money in the grand scheme of it and helps reduce risk.

Jim Watson
November 1, 2012, 12:13 AM
i hope the op can find his shift key when he writes up his own trust for the batf.

lefteyedom
November 3, 2012, 02:42 PM
Just build it and don't worry about... who is ever going to know?.. . It is not like your cousin's daughter's boyfriend's uncle won't keep his mouth shut when he gets busted with 3 grams of cocaine and a underage hooker and needs to make a deal....


Spend the money do it right and then you won't have to worry about it.

Aaron Baker
November 3, 2012, 04:12 PM
Lefteyedom, I don't think anyone in this thread, including the original poster, was suggesting doing anything illegal, like building SBRs without a tax stamp. We were just discussing the finer points of whether you draft your own trust or have an attorney do it. Both are legal options.

So I don't know what cocaine busts have anything to do with this thread.

Aaron

sig228
November 3, 2012, 07:19 PM
.....should i become incapacitated or die--i would set the trust up to direct that the sbr configuration be immediately returned to a standard rifle (16"-26"). the rifle could either be sold or parted out--it would be removed from the registry....


Is this possible? I always thought that since the NFA applies to the receiver, once an NFA, always an NFA unless its destroyed. I didn't think you could undo it.

Aaron Baker
November 3, 2012, 07:37 PM
It is possible to remove items from the NFA registry by returning them to non-NFA configuration and then notifying the ATF.

With an SBR'd AR15, my understanding is that the NFA statutes only apply when it's in NFA configuration. So you can take your registered AR15 across state lines without filing the ATF form as long as you have a 16"+ upper on it. Basically, it's not an SBR when it's not an SBR. But as long as you don't notify the ATF that you want it removed from the registry, you can swap the upper back and forth between short and regular barrels.

Aaron

kimbershot
November 4, 2012, 06:44 AM
stamp is in hand, sbr banging away. like i said in my original post--kiss.

how difficult is it to make a sbr--remove the 16" barrel and install an engraved sbr barrel.

my trust is set so that when i go to that target range in the sky, the original barrel will be reinstalled. the sbr barrel decommissioned, the rifle will then be removed from the registry. my "beneficiary" may then sell the weapon in it's original configuration. :neener:

MasterSergeantA
November 4, 2012, 11:41 AM
Changing barrels on an AR is no real chore, just takes the right tools. Might be easier to just swap uppers and if you ever want to go back to the "original configuration" you just but the upper back on and it is exactly as you bought it.

kimbershot
November 4, 2012, 02:06 PM
one always assumes ar's. swapping an ar barrel is maybe 10min. total. think of other guns that can be swapped out. :evil:

Lee Roder
November 4, 2012, 09:43 PM
stamp is in hand, sbr banging away. like i said in my original post--kiss.

WOW, only six days for your stamp. Mine took 8 months almost to the day! Guess I was one of the "unlucky" ones, too cheap to pay for expedited processing

kimbershot
November 4, 2012, 10:56 PM
whoever said 6 days--try 6 months. :D

Aaron Baker
November 5, 2012, 08:05 AM
whoever said 6 days--try 6 months.

Your original post is worded in terms of what you "would" do, not what you have already done, and it sounded like you had a question to ask the forum. Apparently not. Apparently you've already made your own trust and used it to get a tax stamp, so you didn't really need anyone's advice.

That's why it sounds like you decided to make a trust and then got a tax stamp approved in 6 days.

Aaron

If you enjoyed reading about "no brainer kiss nfa trust thoughts" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!