EAA Witness


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CCantu357
November 4, 2012, 04:58 AM
Looking to buy a 10mm, considering a G20 or EAA Witness. Not very familiar with these, are they simply just CZ-75 knock offs or good, trustwrothy guns?

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oldironsights
November 4, 2012, 06:16 AM
Hard to go wrong with either pistol.
Here are both of mine;

Thompsoncustom
November 4, 2012, 08:28 AM
are they simply just CZ-75 knock offs or good, trustwrothy guns?

Pretty much, the parts aren't interchangeable but the design is basically the same with some small changes here and there.

Kind of depends what you plan on doing with the gun before I could recommend which one would be better for you tho both would be fine. I would say if reliability is your top concern than the glock would probably get the edge tho part of the increased reliability comes from loose chambers so if you plan on running a lot of full power loads the Witness would be the way to go. Also if you reload both would work but I would again go with the witness because of the standard rifle and you won't have case bulge that glocks sometimes have.

Either way both are good gun tho they are like comparing apples and oranges. Go to a store and fondle them both a good amount and if you can rent and shoot them that would be even better.

Japle
November 4, 2012, 10:26 AM
Google "Witness" and "cracked slide".

Then buy the Glock.

wally
November 4, 2012, 10:30 AM
Your happiness with the Witness 10mm will largely depend on your luck with the magazines.

Oldironsights is showing the Witness "Limited" which will set you back about 2X the Glock. You can get the EAA Witness Elite Match for a bit less than the price of the Glock.

My EAA 10mm mags are not reliable enough for anything beyond casual range use. YMMV. I've hear Meg-Gar is now making a Witness 10mm mag that holds 14 instead of 15 rounds, perhaps this solves the issues, but I've not ran across one to try yet.

Thompsoncustom
November 4, 2012, 10:59 AM
Google "Witness" and "cracked slide".

Then buy the Glock.

That's not very constructive if you were to google "kaboom" and Glock" you probably wouldn't buy one of those either, doesn't mean it's a bad weapon.

As far as the mags go they did fix that problem, seems that most of the mags with the red followers were causing the problem but they are now sold with black followers stamped K10 and from what I have read run flawless.

wally
November 4, 2012, 11:11 AM
As far as the mags go they did fix that problem, seems that most of the mags with the red followers were causing the problem but they are now sold with black followers stamped K10

And before the red/orange followers they had black followers. That's the problem too many minor variations among the guns and the mags and EAA customer support is not very helpful in getting it straightened out.

If you get mags that work, you'll love the pistol, if not, good luck! The Mec-Gar may be your only hope.

Thompsoncustom
November 4, 2012, 11:19 AM
Not sure if EAA is still doing it or not but they had a "send us your red follower and will send you the new ones".

Also the new K10 mags are made by mec gar for tanfoglio

3leggeddog
November 4, 2012, 11:49 AM
a 10mm EAA with cracking slides is a well know issue!! Do a search in a few gun fourms... There's many,many good 45 cal out there,lots of parts to be had and easy to fix..just saying.

gotime242
November 4, 2012, 12:13 PM
It was my understanding that they corrected the issue with a new slide design. I recently bought a Witness Elite Match and i absolutely love it. I think a great deal at less than 527 bucks. Adjustable sights, match trigger, barrel...etc.

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/54981/EAA+Witness+Match+10mm+15+%2B+1+Two+Tone

http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x79/njbphotography/EAA%20ELITE%20MATCH/IMG_0932.jpg

Edarnold
November 4, 2012, 02:15 PM
Looking to buy a 10mm, considering a G20 or EAA Witness. Not very familiar with these, are they simply just CZ-75 knock offs or good, trustwrothy guns?
My current manufacture full-size steel 10mm Witness has been both accurate and reliable. The only change I made was a 20# Wolf recoil spring, which I consider necessary if full power loads are to be used.
I had the choice of the Glock 20 and the Witness for the same price. Because of the bulky grip and extreme top-heavy balance of the Glock, it just did not pass as a gun I could shoot well. The added problem that many Glocks have had with poor chamber support and bulged fired cases was another big negative. The chamber problem can be fixed by investing in a third-party replacement barrel, but why can't the manufacturer issue a gun that is safe to fire with the same commercial ammunition that works in other guns?
I consider the Witness line by Tanfoglio to be a sound modern design at very reasonable prices.

IMHO

intercooler
November 4, 2012, 04:37 PM
Kind of funny. Glock: Kaboom, smiley, plastic, blocky, 2x4, performance loss... LOL


Cracked slide happens in the low end models and not all. Nothing wrong with a Glock but I skipped around it for the others.

ds7br
November 5, 2012, 11:58 AM
Purchased a new Witness Match in July. Fired one mag of Win 175gr Silver tips and all of the cases were so blown out just above the web at the ramp area that they had to be thrown away. Customer service informed me that it met specs. Sold it...Bought a Glock 20. Works great with factory ammo(NOT hot botique loads) Purchased a Storm Lake barrel and I can load as hot as safety allows. Some people have had good luck with the Witness pistols; I havent.
Dennis

jmr40
November 5, 2012, 01:15 PM
I know of 5-6 guys who bought EAA's in 10mm. Every one had reliability issues they were never able to resolve. All have sold them in favor of Glocks. The EAA's in other calibers have been better.

floydster
November 5, 2012, 02:18 PM
Just amazing, my whole family shoots Witness Match and Limited pistols in competition, over the last four years and 30,000 rounds not nary a prob---BOY I guess we are lucky!!

Smokeyloads

Dave P
November 5, 2012, 02:36 PM
I have had a Match for 6-7 years now. Wonderful pistol for the priced! Accurate, powerful, reliable.

But ... no cracked slides, although the frame did crack . EAA sent me a new pistol this fall - cool beans! Under warranty, of course.

My previous mags do not fit - that bites!

I'm an idiot --- 10mm

floydster
November 5, 2012, 04:40 PM
Dave P, what caliber was that??
Thanks.

Smokeyloads

Dakotared
November 5, 2012, 04:58 PM
I have the full size steel witness in 10mm. Put a little over 1000 rounds this summer and my slide and frame are fine. In the past they did have some slide / frame cracking but that has been worked out. It is more of a internet story the glock fanboys keep up to try to make their own look better.

I too put in the 20# spring as the one it came with was on the weak side.

As far as reliability goes the only time it gave me troubles is when I loaded up some simi wade cutter's it would give some FTF. Went back to cone, round, flat, and HP pills and it eats them right up.

Long story short get the witness you will love it.

intercooler
November 5, 2012, 05:10 PM
I have never heard of case bulges in a Witness. Pictures or it didn't happen!

ATLDave
November 5, 2012, 05:25 PM
As I've posted before, the EAA Elite series (Match and above) are like Italian sportscars. They take a little love, and are not the world's most reliable machines, but when they're running right they're some of the most fun guns on the planet and WAY more enjoyable to shoot than Glocks. If I were going to carry something into combat and leave it in the mud and feed it cheap, mid-powered ammo, I'd go with the Glock. If I were buying something to enjoy shooting, it would be a Witness Match or better.

MachIVshooter
November 5, 2012, 10:45 PM
Google "Witness" and "cracked slide".

Then buy the Glock.

:rolleyes:

My little 2003 compact 10 has I don't know how many thousands of rounds through it, most full power handloads (and I do mean full power, 1,300-1,400 FPS, 180 or 200 gr. IMR 800x loads). Nary a problem. My Limited has a lower round count, but same story. My light target load is a 180 gr. FMJ or plated bullet over 9.5 grs. 800x with CCI 350 primers; 1,240 FPS from a 5" gun. I just see no point in wussifying the round, even for practice.

My G20 has also handled my loads just fine, but has proven that Glocks don't quite deserve the reliability reputation they have. They can and do jam, just as any autoloader will.

The only 10mm I own that has never jammed is my S&W 1006. Incidentally, it's also the strongest 10mm platform you'll find.

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n117/Hunter2506/101_1124-1.jpg

Lerk
November 6, 2012, 08:43 AM
Love my 10mm Witness Match :)

Like others, a little spring work and thats it and she'll run the full power loads no prob. I have red followers in all three of my mags and besides one particular brand of bullets my guns just happens to hate, I've never had any feeding issues. But I did take the time to ensure that my reloads I make for it do just what I want with them and realibility was high on the list (along with a consistent short ejection distance). Haven't shot any factory ammo in a long time as I can reload right now for about 1/4 the price of factory (and that's not even cast bullets).

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w175/Lehrke91/IMG_0281.jpg

Dave P
November 6, 2012, 09:11 AM
Floyd - my Match is in 10 mm. Frame cracked in 2 places, one each side, just behind the mag release. Very strange.

And if any body wants red follower mags, drop me a line - I may have 2 available.

ATLDave
November 6, 2012, 10:44 AM
Dave P, there was a thread a while ago on that. EAA says that particular crack is not really a problem, and that it is anticipated with a stress cut on certain other Witness models, but not on the Match.

Mine developed the same crack, though only on one side. I also got a crack at the very bottom of the grip on one side of the magwell. EAA sent me a new gun without hassle. I had a thread about that, too.

Dave P
November 6, 2012, 05:45 PM
"EAA says that particular crack is not really a problem,"


Oh boy - that's a new one!

Ash
November 6, 2012, 06:13 PM
I had a 10mm Witness and liked it fine. It had a square-slide and I sold it only because I have no more 10mm's and never warmed up to the caliber.

intercooler
November 6, 2012, 07:08 PM
Yes that was me who posted the picture of the crack near the mag release. It is a factory cut they put in on other models. It's something they should have done on the Match as well but didn't. The meat there is just very thin and I think sliding full mags into the well causes the crack there. No biggie!

MachIVshooter
November 6, 2012, 09:11 PM
"EAA says that particular crack is not really a problem,"

Oh boy - that's a new one!

Actually, it's not new. They've been putting the relief cut on the elite models for some time. My 2007 Limited has them.

The meat there is just very thin and I think sliding full mags into the well causes the crack there

No, it's frame flex that causes it. And no, it's not a problem. It either develops after use, or is put there from factory.

Incidentally, the shorter frame of my compact seems to have resisted this tendency. Still no crack, gun is almost 10 years old with many, MANY hot loads down range.

dcarch
November 6, 2012, 09:23 PM
Get a Ruger GP-100. :evil::evil::evil: Just kidding. That's a toughie. It really depends on the intended purpose of the gun. Is this going to be for competition, or self defense? Is this a range gun or a nightstand gun? For a purely functional self defense gun, I would go with the gun. On the other hand, if this is going to be more of a "for fun" gun, I would probably go with the Witness, as I've had a running love affair with CZ pistols for a very long time. My advice regarding the Ruger still stands if you're worried about reliability, btw.

Seer792
December 24, 2012, 10:07 PM
I'm glad to see others have learned that their Witness 10mm's need 20# springs. My compact Wonder Finish (Tenifer) slide cracked several years ago but after EAA replaced it I went to the 20# Wolff springs and no more problems. I now have a new 10mm full size frame, the slide is much beefier on this one but I still installed a 20# Wolff spring, it makes it a little hard to rack but it's worth it.

Buck13
December 25, 2012, 12:25 PM
I now have a new 10mm full size frame, the slide is much beefier on this one but I still installed a 20# Wolff spring, it makes it a little hard to rack but it's worth it.

Is that the standard model, or one of the higher versions? I have a full-sized "base model" Witness 10 mm on order. I'm planning to load and shoot mostly moderate ammo (around 550 FP ME). Not sure if that warrants replacing the spring?

Weevil
December 25, 2012, 02:40 PM
Most of the cracked slide issues started when they went to the more streamlined rounded slides like the one Seer792 posted.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=176593&d=1356401151


This was never an issue with the older squared slides.

http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n200/srebough/witness10mmjp8x6_edited.jpg


Had a Witness 10mm and a G20, still have the G20 sold the Witness.

My only real gripe with the Witness was the mags, that and it weighed a ton. With good mags they'd probably be a great pistol but at the time they weren't.

While the G20 is not as nice ergonomics wise it has quality mags available, and much better support as far as parts and accessories for it.

Torian
February 10, 2013, 11:23 AM
The new production 10m Elite Match's (serial numbers in black) seem to be fine. I have one of these with the new K10 magazines (black follower), and don't have any issues.

I don't like shooting the 10mm full power loads out of a Glock. It is just not comfortable shooter for me when you ramp up the recoil with underwood loads.

I can't speak for older Elite Match 10mm. I would not have purchased the one I have unless it was a new production. The new 10mm Elite Match series are pretty hard to come by these days.

Walt Sherrill
February 10, 2013, 07:37 PM
I now have a new 10mm full size frame, the slide is much beefier on this one but I still installed a 20# Wolff spring, it makes it a little hard to rack but it's worth it.

It MAY be worth it, or it may unnecessary extra effort. The fact that you have the NEW design slide is arguably the most important thing you've written.

I doubt that a heavier recoil spring protects either the frame or the new- or older-design slide on these guns. The recoil spring's main function is to close the slide, not to reduce the shooter's experience of recoil or protect the slide or frame. When a weaker recoil spring is used, the force not stored in the spring goes into the shooter's hand and arm.

We should note, too, that when Tanfoglio made some earlier changes to their guns in response to slide cracks, they made stress cuts in the slides, but didn't really go to heavier recoil springs. (I think Beretta did some similar in-field fixes to a bunch of Army and Marine M9's around the time of "Desert Storm" when those guns had similar slide problems.)

1911Tuner, a participant here and on other gun forums, has demonstrated that firing 1911s without recoil springs doesn't damage either the shooter or the gun; the slide just doesn't load the next round. While Witnesses aren't 1911s, the basic functions of these locked-breech, short-recoil Browning style guns are the same.

A heavier recoil spring STORES more of the force of the fired round, and then later passes that extra stored force back through barrel, slide and slide-stop to the frame as the slide slams shut. A heavier recoil spring is more likely to damage a slide stop than protect a slide or frame.

A heavier hammer spring will also slow the slide as it cocks the hammer but that stored force will be returned to the frame later than usual -- when the hammer falls, not when the slide slams shut. That means that the total force being returned is the same, it is split up differently, with a bit less hitting the slide stop when the slide first closes, and a bit more hitting later.

If I had a 10mm Witness -- I did once, but later sold it -- I'd go with the factory-recommended 14 lb. recoil spring and make life a bit easier when racking the slide. (Jumping from 14 lbs to 20 lbs is a roughly 40% increase, and that's big!)

wally
February 11, 2013, 08:37 AM
Just amazing, my whole family shoots Witness Match and Limited pistols in competition, over the last four years and 30,000 rounds not nary a prob

In 10mm? My .45 ACP Witness pistols have been wonderful and problem free, IMHO the Witness Elite 45 is what the CZ97 should have been.

I recommend the Witness 45, but in other calibers (9mm .40S&W, or 10mm) your happiness will depend on your luck of the draw with magazines. Futzing around with followers, extra power magazine springs and tweaking feed lips have gotten all my mags to work reliably except in 10mm.

The 9mm & .40S&W mags with the spacers (to make the internal length of the mag better match the OAL of 9mm & .40S&W rounds) seemed to fix the mag issues in 9mm & .40S&W so if these are all you have and 100% of what EAA is supplying now, then I probably would recommend the 9mm & 40S&W versions.

IdahoSkies
February 11, 2013, 04:46 PM
I have a witness in 9mm, and a Glock 29. So not totally on point to your question, but close. Both the witness and Glock platforms can handle the 10mm. The Witness is a heavier gun, and the polymer frame of the Glock actually really does a good job of managing the 10mm recoil. You first have to decide:

1) Do I want a striker fired pistol, or a DA/SA hammer fired pistol,
2) Do I want a manual safety?
3) Does the pistol fit my hand?

Answering those questions will answer which one you should get. They both handle 10mm round.

The larger frame (10mm) witness has the advantage of being able to go from a .22lr all the way up 10mm (including .45ACP), by swapping out the slide and barrel, and using the correct magazine. Its a very versatile gun.

ATLDave
February 11, 2013, 05:39 PM
1) Do I want a striker fired pistol, or a DA/SA hammer fired pistol,
2) Do I want a manual safety?
3) Does the pistol fit my hand?

Good questions, except that #1 should also include SAO options, since quite a few Witness Elite models have SAO triggers.

PGT
February 11, 2013, 05:50 PM
I love the feel of these....I just got mine. Need to add a front fiber sight at some point.
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y124/PatagonianGT/GunStuff/3c03b37e17da9bd930d8c8d28fb62a26.jpg

wally
February 11, 2013, 11:37 PM
I just got mine. Need to add a front fiber sight at some point.

Dawson Precision makes ones that fit.

PGT
February 11, 2013, 11:39 PM
I was looking at the Henning kit.

saturno_v
February 12, 2013, 04:26 AM
Even if they fixed the 10mm issue...you still have to deal potentially with EAA if you get the occasional lemon which is a distinct possibility.......a good enough reason to stay away from these pistols.

I will never get tired to repeat that I would not trust EAA to manage a hot dog cart let alone selling firearms...

My suggestion...stay away from EAA products....

carbonyl
February 12, 2013, 05:54 AM
WOW, just googled both. I'll take finding a crack in the slide to finding my fingers in the grass any day!!!!:eek:

Torian
February 12, 2013, 08:35 PM
Guys... The slide issue was tracked down to a bad batch of steel that EAA used to manufacture slides a few years ago. It was prevalent in the Elite Matches too. New production Elite Matches do NOT have the slide issues that the older models had, nor do they have the mag issues either.

Of course, EAA really screwed the pooch when they failed to ensure quality control on the older models. Even though they offered to replace slides, it was still an aggravating process for many, and many of those just lost faith in the company entirely. They caused a lot of grief for buyers, and on the internet, none of this stuff is going away any time soon. Imagine loving a gun that you can't shoot because the company can't make a magazine that works? I know, crazy.

For us newer 10mm EAA buyers, I love the weapon, particularly the Elite Match. Great trigger, tight action, very accurate (the most accurate shooter I have next to my 5 in 627 PC), and double stack. I would choose it over a Glock ANY day. I would not recommend buying an older one, but if you get a chance to shoot a new production, please do. If the serial number is in black, at least for the 10mm Elite Match models, it is a new production model

Walt Sherrill
February 12, 2013, 10:34 PM
The slide issue was tracked down to a bad batch of steel that EAA used to manufacture slides a few years ago...

While this may be a valid explanation, but it is the FIRST time I've heard it, after years of hearing horror stories about the slides. Not saying it's false, but....

1) do you have a source for this information?

2) Makes me want to ask, if it was bad steel, why they changed the slide design. That change was supposedly done in response to the problem. (Maybe it wasn't?)

3) EAA doesn't manufacture anything -- it's an importer. They just import their Witness guns (from Tanfoglio). That being the case, has anyone heard of Tanfoglio building other guns, under their own brand, that demonstrated the same problem?

As I've noted in earlier responses, I've had a bunch of Witness guns over the years, and no real complaints. The only one that gave me problems was a Sport Long Slide in .45 (for which I also had a 10mm shorter slide.) Those problems were expensive, but not frame or slide related -- and I had bought the gun used so didn't look to EAA to fix them.

A real jerk or two works at EAA in key positions (or did work there), and has/have done more damage to that company than they will ever understand. I like their guns, but not the company.

bltmonty
February 13, 2013, 07:41 PM
My witness P carry--polymer--was not strong enough to handle normal 10mm loads. The frame flexed considerably with the trigger pin coming out and the magazine catch only working sometime.

However, I have a witness elite in 10mm that's the best handgun I have--and I have the glock 29, sigs, cz's , ect.

Dakotared
February 15, 2013, 05:34 PM
A real jerk or two works at EAA in key positions (or did work there), and has/have done more damage to that company than they will ever understand. I like their guns, but not the company.

Truer words have never been spoken. The guns are some of the best out there. Too bad they have a bad importer. I had to deal with them not to long ago, they did fix the issue but it was a frustrating experience.

dcarch
February 16, 2013, 01:12 AM
^This.

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