Is there anything odd with this test reload I did?


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gfanikf
November 5, 2012, 11:44 AM
It has no powder in it, but otherwise it's the real deal. It's for 30-06 using a 150 FMJ HPBT bullet from Hornady.

Now I just can't shake the fact that something just looks off, all the measurements are within spec. I don't have any factory rounds to compare it to, but the way it's seat is just looking odd to me. I just the touch the shell and lock it in place.

I used the crimp die from Lee too, but for the hell of me I have no clue if it did anything at all.

This is pretty much the last roadblock to cross before I can start up full scale reloading...well and a tumbling question, but that's for another thread.

http://i.imgur.com/SyeJ1.jpg?1
http://i.imgur.com/EVCrY.jpg?1
http://i.imgur.com/pdUIz.jpg?1
http://i.imgur.com/BEb2m.jpg?1

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7075-T7
November 5, 2012, 11:48 AM
The bullet does look to be seated deeper than I would think for a 150gr. But, you mentioned that all the measurements were in spec, so I assume you checked the OAL. :confused:

Certaindeaf
November 5, 2012, 11:51 AM
That's the shortest looking 150 grain 30-06 cartridge I've ever seen.

ArchAngelCD
November 5, 2012, 11:54 AM
That bullet is seated too deep into the case. The bullet should not be seated below the point where the bullet starts it's taper, that bullet is.

You said "everything is within specs" so I'm guessing your sating you are following the OAL listed in a manual. Well, unless you are using the same exact bullet they use in their recipe the OAL is useless to you. That bullet is too deep and under certain circumstances can be dangerous. (if the bullet sets back)

TFL
November 5, 2012, 12:02 PM
Two ?
Did you remove the primer crimp ?
Did you trim the case to 2.484"

Certaindeaf
November 5, 2012, 12:03 PM
If it has no powder in it why does it have a live primer in it? DO NOT DO THAT!

gfanikf
November 5, 2012, 12:07 PM
If it has no powder in it why does it have a live primer in it? DO NOT DO THAT!
The primer had a scratch on it after seating it.I had no intention of ever using it.






Two ?
Did you remove the primer crimp ?
Did you trim the case to 2.484"
Primer crimp was removed before.

Some of the cases were already less than 2.484.


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gfanikf
November 5, 2012, 12:08 PM
That bullet is seated too deep into the case. The bullet should not be seated below the point where the bullet starts it's taper, that bullet is.

You said "everything is within specs" so I'm guessing your sating you are following the OAL listed in a manual. Well, unless you are using the same exact bullet they use in their recipe the OAL is useless to you. That bullet is too deep and under certain circumstances can be dangerous. (if the bullet sets back)

The data I was using was the one listed in the info with the lee dies. I didn't get a chance to check the OAL with my hornady book yet.

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Certaindeaf
November 5, 2012, 12:11 PM
The primer had a scratch on it after seating it.I had no intention of ever using it..
It doesn't matter what your intentions were. If that round gets mixed up with live rounds there's no way to tell if its got powder in it save weighing it.
When making dummy rounds, use a fired primer or better yet, no primer at all.
That's an accident waiting to happen. Pull that thing now.

Rogue35
November 5, 2012, 12:14 PM
If it has no powder in it then pull the bullet as soon as possible. You don't want that round accidentally getting mixed in with any other live rounds.

ArchAngelCD
November 5, 2012, 12:24 PM
The data I was using was the one listed in the info with the lee dies. I didn't get a chance to check the OAL with my hornady book yet.

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Right there is your problem. Like I said above, any listed OAL is useless unless the recipe uses the same EXACT bullet you are using.

I also agree any dummy round should not have a live primer installed.

gfanikf
November 5, 2012, 12:41 PM
It doesn't matter what your intentions were. If that round gets mixed up with live rounds there's no way to tell if its got powder in it save weighing it.
When making dummy rounds, use a fired primer or better yet, no primer at all.
That's an accident waiting to happen. Pull that thing now.

I dont have a bullet puller. It was kept in a separate bag and I marked it up later with a marker to make it obvious not to use.

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JohnM
November 5, 2012, 12:45 PM
Now is a good time to get a puller then. You'll end up wanting one eventually anyway. :)

USSR
November 5, 2012, 01:10 PM
gfanikf,

Assuming you have a set of calipers (which you should), from the point in which your bullet starts to go from being full width (.308") to start being the boattail, measure up (towards the bullet tip) .250" to .300" and mark the bullet there. If you don't have a set of calipers, use a ruler and measure 1/4 inch up. Then seat your bullet so that it stops there and you will be fine.

Don

gfanikf
November 5, 2012, 01:13 PM
Now is a good time to get a puller then. You'll end up wanting one eventually anyway. :)
I keep meaning to but I always forget.


More on point how does one fix or test seating depth?

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gfanikf
November 5, 2012, 01:15 PM
gfanikf,

Assuming you have a set of calipers (which you should), from the point in which your bullet starts to go from being full width (.308") to start being the boattail, measure up (towards the bullet tip) .250" to .300" and mark the bullet there. If you don't have a set of calipers, use a ruler and measure 1/4 inch up. Then seat your bullet so that it stops there and you will be fine.

Don

Thanks!

Bullet Seating just seems like this bizarrely under described part for something so important in my books I have.

I should see what the ABC book has on it.

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Certaindeaf
November 5, 2012, 01:49 PM
What OAL is your first test round? Don't all current Hornady 150gr .308 boat tails have a big cannelure in them?

homatok
November 5, 2012, 01:57 PM
No puller??? Just take the die out of your press, run the cartridge up until the bullet is sticking out above the press-top, grab the bullet with a pair of pliers, vice grips etc. and lower the ram----bullet out!

Kyle M.
November 5, 2012, 02:05 PM
No puller??? Just take the die out of your press, run the cartridge up until the bullet is sticking out above the press-top, grab the bullet with a pair of pliers, vice grips etc. and lower the ram----bullet out!

I did this once I recieved 150 reloads with a model 94 in 7-30 waters I purchased several years back. Being an unknown load by an unknown someone I pulled the bullets with vice grips, threw out the powder, and loaded them myself.

Chawbaccer
November 5, 2012, 02:21 PM
If the bullet has a canalure, it should be at the case mouth. Also you need to chamfer the case mouth, looks like a big burr on the outside.

gfanikf
November 5, 2012, 02:50 PM
If the bullet has a canalure, it should be at the case mouth. Also you need to chamfer the case mouth, looks like a big burr on the outside.

Yeah that was something I realized yesterday. I hadnt chamfered using the point facing outward method.

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gfanikf
November 5, 2012, 09:16 PM
Okay I futzed around with the knob on top and didn't full pull the lever down and I got one to 3.182 as the COL vs 3.185 per Hornay specs for the bullet. Is that better? Not sure exactly what I did or do to repeat it...yet lol


Looks a lot more lik regular ammo now. Crimp still not sure on....but I feel a hell of a lot more confident I'm on the right path.

jcwit
November 5, 2012, 09:44 PM
Just wondering, whats the big deal with a scratch on the primer?

morcey2
November 5, 2012, 10:06 PM
I've loaded about 50 using the same bullets. OAL is 3.2" and that's right at the cannelure. The OAL that you referenced seems too short for that bullet and is either a misprint or is for a different bullet.

Matt

ETA: looked up the hornady data on loaddata.com and it does list 3.185" as the OAL. I'd look at that as minimum OAL, not max.

Certaindeaf
November 5, 2012, 10:44 PM
.Looks a lot more lik regular ammo now. Crimp still not sure on....but I feel a hell of a lot more confident I'm on the right path.
On that crimp, don't. Don't bother.. it's unnecessary and could perhaps complicate things for you.

gamestalker
November 5, 2012, 11:19 PM
Don't crimp, don't prime dummy rounds, and don't seat up on the olgive or deeper than necessary.

Use data that is speciific to the bullet you are loading. But if you are having difficulty finding such data for that bullet, the use dial calipers to measure the bullet length and then seat the bullet .308" into the case mouth and you should be good to go.

GS

foxtail207
November 5, 2012, 11:49 PM
Seating instructions are on the back of the Lee data sheet that comes with their die sets. Follow those instructions, and back the top nut out on your first seat. That will make the OAL long. Then slowly, in increments, tighten down the top nut a little and by trial and error push the bullet in more until you reach the required OAL. Use calipers to measure OAL on each "re-seat". The end of the brass will usually fall within the cannalure when it's the right OAL. If you don't have a set of calipers, get one. Harbor Freight has some inexpensive ones, and using one of their coupons makes it even cheaper. It just takes some trials to get it bullet seat right. Make sure the die is tight in the press. When you get the OAL right, you can load away at that setting. You might want to recheck the length on a few as you go thru a big batch.
Good luck and have fun with it.

Still Shooting
November 6, 2012, 12:59 AM
I keep a set of pages from SAAMI in my reloading notebook - A 3-ring book that contains:

1- A set of log sheets for my reloading activity,

2 - The SAAMI spec sheet for each of the calibers I reload,

3 - A list by caliber of "Min/Max/Trim To" case lengths,

4 - A spreadsheet with the RCBS, Lyman, Redding, and Hornady shell holder numbers for each caliber/case,

5 - Calibration instructions for my digital scale, and

6 - A list of the overall cartridge lengths at which each bullet by brand/catalog number I load touches the rifling lands of the rifle I load it for.

I still use my reloading manuals (Hornady, Lyman, Nosler, Sierra, and Speer) as a "check reference" before I load. I am loading for 15 rifle calibers, so having this data available at the loading bench makes life easier!

I have used clear plastic adhesive laminating sheets on all of the reference pages to keep them in good shape.

Here is a copy of my "Activity Log" sheet (NOT laminated):

gfanikf
November 6, 2012, 08:17 AM
Foxtail thank you so much. That's exactly what I needed to see laid out. The lee instructions can be a tad sparse at times and sometimes the best thing is having some explain things themselves. I actually do have a set of Cabelas digital calipers.

Still shooting thanks for the tracking sheet and the layout. I think I'll set one up today amd start working from it.

I just have one question with trim to length. What does one do when all your rounds are smaller then the trim to length? Just leave it as is?

Thanks again everyone!

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morcey2
November 6, 2012, 09:47 AM
Foxtail thank you so much. That's exactly what I needed to see laid out. The lee instructions can be a tad sparse at times and sometimes the best thing is having some explain things themselves. I actually do have a set of Cabelas digital calipers.

Still shooting thanks for the tracking sheet and the layout. I think I'll set one up today amd start working from it.

I just have one question with trim to length. What does one do when all your rounds are smaller then the trim to length? Just leave it as is?

Thanks again everyone!

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The first question is how did they get that short? From the burr around the neck on that one, it looks like it was trimmed to that length by someone. I know that a lot of formed cartridges are slightly shorter than spec, like forming 8x56R from 7.62x54R and, while not optimal, it works. That's about a 2mm difference or about 0.075".

How much shorter than 2.484" are they? Was the crimp removed prior to you getting the brass? How much do you trust the person from which you got the brass?

Matt

gfanikf
November 6, 2012, 11:52 AM
The first question is how did they get that short? From the burr around the neck on that one, it looks like it was trimmed to that length by someone. I know that a lot of formed cartridges are slightly shorter than spec, like forming 8x56R from 7.62x54R and, while not optimal, it works. That's about a 2mm difference or about 0.075".

How much shorter than 2.484" are they? Was the crimp removed prior to you getting the brass? How much do you trust the person from which you got the brass?

Matt

I wish I could recall offhand, but some were .020, most were less, none close to the trim limit at all (not like when I measured some of my own once fired). I know they were once fired Lake City, that were tumbled, clean, and the deprimed with the crimp removed. In terms of trust the, found via the CMP forums, the guy shipped before I even sent him the check. Was really nice and even chatted on the phone about the stuff.

ArchAngelCD
November 6, 2012, 03:31 PM
You are checking the length AFTER you resize, right?

GLOOB
November 6, 2012, 03:36 PM
I agree with the others stating to never make a primed dummy round. Pounding out a jacketed rifle bullet can be very difficult. In the least, it will ruin a range day. You don't wanna intentionally create something that might inadvertently do that.

gfanikf
November 6, 2012, 03:53 PM
You are checking the length AFTER you resize, right?

Hmm, I wanna say before and after I resized. Guess I can double check tonight.

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ArchAngelCD
November 6, 2012, 03:56 PM
Hmm, I wanna say before and after I resized. Guess I can double check tonight.

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The full length resizing is what stretches the brass so you should measure the length after you resize to find out if you need to trim. Measuring before us useless because the resizing is what effects the case length.

JohnM
November 6, 2012, 04:33 PM
Sounds to me like reading a reloading manual is in order.
To understand the steps taken and when and why.

ozo
November 6, 2012, 05:11 PM
This is scary to me.....
Meaning no disrespect, but for your own
safety, I think you need to take a step or two backwards.
You should get your tools in order...so you have them
at hand if needed, and do much, much more reading and
research before running the press.
Have a clear understanding of each step in the process.
Reloading is not rocket science, but there are many facets
involved to make good, safe, and reliable ammo.
Please don't take me wrong, but I don't think you are ready.
Much data to be had for loading is incomplete.
A good manual is still the best, but you MUST use the EXACT
components that are listed....exactly as listed.
From your pics.....
Brass looks bad
Seating looks bad
Primer looks bad
___From your posts.....
Responses look bad...ie.
Don't remember...
Maybe, not sure
Hmmmm, I will check....
Just be safe.....Take it slow.....line up your ducks first.

agd1953
November 6, 2012, 06:27 PM
The scratch on the primer is not the problem with putting a live primer in a dummy round. The problem is that if it gets in with live rounds you may fire the thing and with just the primer in there and no powder it will get stuck in the barrel and when you scratch your head on what may have happened you may try another round and it will hit the bullet stuck in the barrel and you will be history!!!

foxtail207
November 6, 2012, 08:40 PM
A question for Still Shooting...
Ref: "A list of the overall cartridge lengths at which each bullet by brand/catalog number I load touches the rifling lands of the rifle I load it for."

How does one go about measuring the point where the bullet touches the lands?
I've never heard how this is done. Can you offer an explanation, or refer us to a "how to".

Certaindeaf
November 6, 2012, 09:26 PM
Barely neck size and seat the bullet (you want a firm slip fit) in an empty unprimed case long and gently chamber it and then unchamber it. Measure it.

Sport45
November 6, 2012, 10:30 PM
You've been given good advice on the seating depth, case length and primer issue.

I'll add that I go a step further and cross drill the cases of my dummy rounds. That makes identifying them much more obvious. But in truth the only dummy rounds that wind up in my range bag are for the M1. Most of my dummy rounds (without primers) stay at the reloading bench for use in setting up crimp/seating dies.

Leaving a spent primer in a dummy round makes it look like a dud that may still have powder inside.

Andrew Leigh
November 7, 2012, 01:00 AM
To the OP.

I don't think this was mentioned but based on the scuff marks on the case neck it would appear as if you only sized 2/3rd's of the neck (see your second picture). This means that if you are FL sizing brass not fire formed in your rifle that you have not sized the case at all but merely squeezed 2/3rd's of the neck. If you have fire formed brass and were neck sizing then your die was not seated deep enough and you may experience chambering difficulty.

I would strongly encourage you to get a reloading manual (if you do not have one) and to study this at length. Reloading is not a complicated process but it is a critical process which requires attention to detail, lots of checks and balances and an overall respect for safety.

As fellow hand loaders we are concerned for you safety. Take a step backwards and understand the fundamentals first.

Good luck, it wont take long.

PS: Meant to add, is the primer seated below the level of the base of the case? It does not appear so, my primers tend to flatten slightly when seated correctly as it requires extra pressure. I find that primer seating attachments on a press are poor. If you were priming with the press then consider buying a Lee priming tool, they are remarkable bits of kit for their price.

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