If you shoot sub-MOA at 25 yds offhand with handguns, do not bother to read


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Impureclient
November 6, 2012, 03:18 PM
I've only been in the gun community now for a couple years but one thing that has always perplexed me is people claiming that they can shoot groups that are extraordinarily small compared to what is seen in real life.
It happens in every gun forum. Somebody will complain about how they're "only" shooting 1/2" groups at 50 yds with their rimfires, so they need to find what is wrong. Then another's handgun will shoot 1" offhand
standing all day long at 25 yards. The best part is, this type of consistent shooting does not exist in reality. There are no videos of it to speak of and I've never seen anybody do it in real life. If confronted, claims
of not having a camera or other "great" excuses fly until whatever is written/posted is forgotten and the subject has moved on.

What really set me off today was somebody claiming they are shooting better at 50 yds with irons than I am seeing at 25 yds with a scope on the same exact gun. That and every range visit I come away seemingly
short(along with the rest of the hundreds of people I see there) from what people are claiming on the internet. So for those who have been in this rodeo for a while, is there a reason other than being a braggart?
We aren't earning points here for our shooting skills so what does this bring for the person claiming this? I mean eventually these people have to back their claims up and it should end but there seems to be an endless
line of these crack shots online.

Sometimes it's so hard to decipher what you should expect out of a gun when all you hear is nonsense. If you get one great grouping, then hooray for you. Just don't come online and start going on how you do this all day
long and brush it off as it's nothing out of the ordinary. Is there something factual written that outlines what to expect from different calibers at different length barrels or do we all have to rely on manufacturer claims and
internet heroes for this? I research guns I want by way of what I hear about their quality and accuracy from other users. I try to get this information by looking through the "more adult" forums out there which are calmer
and all the "operators" have no interest in but lately it is getting harder to separate. I guess ultimately what I'm asking is how do you weed out fact from fiction on accuracy when purchasing a new firearm?

If you enjoyed reading about "If you shoot sub-MOA at 25 yds offhand with handguns, do not bother to read" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Certaindeaf
November 6, 2012, 03:26 PM
They want to make you disgusted with your Colt Python and sell it to them for fifty cents.

brboyer
November 6, 2012, 03:27 PM
The best part is, this type of consistent shooting does not exist in reality.

Spend some time hanging around good shooters in IDPA, USPSA, Bullseye, Steel Challenge, SASS, 3-Gun, GSSF, among others, and you will see it is quite common.

holdencm9
November 6, 2012, 03:33 PM
There are some really good shooters out there...

Actually THR is what has inspired me to up my game. For the first few years of shooting I felt satisfied because I shot better than 90% of people at the (public) range, and on TV when you see the cops shooting at the range they are lucky to group 8" at 8 yards. So I thought my 5-6" groups at 7 or 8 yards weren't too shabby. First time I heard someone brag about a 3" group at 25 yards, I thought, total BS. But it is possible. Not for me (yet) but some people out there do it.

Of course I am still skeptical anytime someone says they shoot absurd groups all the time, even when posting pictures of targets, you can't verify range, but I'd say at least at THR, 90% or more are telling the truth.

Go to youtube and do some browsing, there are plenty of people making trick shots and awesome groups on video. Hickock45 is crazy hitting this gong at 100 yards with almost-boring regularity. I saw another guy shoot a .22LR through the hole of a soda can tab, from about 7-10 yards. He readily admitted it took 4 tries, but still, that is impressive!

WNTFW
November 6, 2012, 03:38 PM
I agree with what you are saying. The flip side of it is if I say I shot a or even a couple 1/4 MOA group with my rem 700 some people read into that that I claim I have a 1/4 MOA rifle and can do it all the time. Where the rubber meets the road for me is 'Context' and 'Matches'. Matches are a good place to compare what you can you in a given environment and fairly equal conditions. Context is also a factor. No Wind vs Constant Wind or Tricky Wind all matter.
FWIW I think as a shooter you need to savor the better results and acknowledge poor performance for what it is. You have to own both if you are honest with yourself. I think the key to becoming better is being honest with ones self.
I can tell you at one range I go to there are a lot more "A" game shooters than at others.

*NOVA*
November 6, 2012, 03:42 PM
I think the OP is not referring to match grade firearms using match grade ammo. He's talking about regular Joe Schmuckatellies bragging about unrealistic shooting ability using standard equipment. I think there are plenty of folks whose shooting ability / accuracy is not extraordinary and as such they feel no urge to post their results. You only hear from the ones who amazed themselves out of pure luck and of course the story gets better by the time the get home to write about it. I have impressed myself after trying different techniques, barrels, ammo, etc. and showing slight improvement, but have figured out the really good shooters out there have been at it for years and literally thousands of rounds

Halal Pork
November 6, 2012, 03:47 PM
I've seen some amazing marksmen do their thing. Unfortunately, I'm not one of them.

Some of the detailed online reviews of firearms I've come across are far better than anything I've read in any gun magazine. I sift through those pretty often. If I'm seriously thinking about something or other, I'll also ask some folks I know whose opinions I respect and are usually far more knowledgeable than me. Sometimes they have good points and otherwise I get the shoulder shrug.

Is there any particular type of firearm (or category) you're interest in? Maybe there are specific sites you can be pointed to for reviews and info.

Here's an example of a search I've done a million times using Google:

CZ 550 review site:thehighroad.org

RJTravel
November 6, 2012, 03:50 PM
"sub-MOA at 25 yards" would be pretty hard to do given that MOA at 25 yards is 1/4 inch. They would all need to be in one hole. Perhaps the bragger hit the target only once and assumes all bullets did indeed go through the same hole. That really makes sense.

mljdeckard
November 6, 2012, 03:50 PM
It's gibberish. It's very rare to find a handgun/ammo combination that is even that accurate. When they are, it's usually a revolver. The best guarantee I know (that can be verified) is Nighthawk guarantees 1" @25 yards out of the box, on a rest. (I got my Kimber to do 2" one day.) MOA @ 25 yards is 1/4". Good luck.

JohnBT
November 6, 2012, 03:51 PM
"If you shoot sub-MOA at 25 yds offhand with handguns"

I've known some good shots, but I don't recall any of them shooting 1/4" groups or smaller at 25 yards.

"Then another's handgun will shoot 1" offhand standing all day long at 25 yards."

That's 4 MOA rounded off. Good shooting, but not sub MOA.


"Somebody will complain about how they're "only" shooting 1/2" groups at 50 yds with their rimfires"

Heck, almost anybody can shoot that well with a couple of my rifles - a Cooper, a Rem 541S, a Finnfire Hunter and maybe a few more. On a good day my father's Model 17-4 with a 2x scope and 8.375" barrel might manage it off a rest. Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it's all a fantasy.

John

MrBorland
November 6, 2012, 03:59 PM
As mentioned, there are some really good shooters out there - yet, for a variety of reasons, you're unlikely to see (or notice) them at your local range (and on forums like this, they tend to be relatively quiet). But your perception of what's good and do-able is largely based on your experience (e.g. your local range), so anything beyond that must be BS, it seems.

Case in point: I recently went to the range with a friend of mine. Both of us are competitive revolver shooters, so he knows a thing or 2 about shooting. The topic of marksmanship came up, and he confessed he's read my forum postings (that, IMO, honest and consistent 3" 5-shot groups at 25 yards is good, but not exceptional shooting) and thought "BS". So, right there at 20 yards, I shot a 2" unsupported group on demand. Even better, after offering him a few tips, he raised his revo and shot a 2" group himself. Far and away anything he'd achieved earlier. He was blown away and shook his head, saying "I guess I thought it was BS because it was beyond my experience".

So for those who have been in this rodeo for a while, is there a reason other than being a braggart?

Shooting well takes practice, but if reasonable and achievable standards seem unreasonable and out of reach because most others say they're merely the products of "liars, braggarts and keyboard commandos", you'll never achieve anything close to your potential. I can't speak to anyone else's motivation, but IMO, those who demonstrate good marksmanship skills often do so in an attempt to show their forum buds what is do-able and reasonable.

Go to youtube and do some browsing, there are plenty of people making trick shots and awesome groups on video. Hickock45 is crazy hitting this gong at 100 yards with almost-boring regularity. I saw another guy shoot a .22LR through the hole of a soda can tab, from about 7-10 yards.

... or balancing a nickel on it's edge on the barrel while cycling the action:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmy5mkjpUNI&feature=channel&list=UL

Hunterdad
November 6, 2012, 03:59 PM
I shoot 3-gun comps with a guy that can consistently (8 out of 10) hit a bowling pin with his SA 1911 at 90yds. I chalked it up to being very farmiliar with his gun until he picked up my Dan Wesson 15 and hit that same bowling pin 4 out of 5 times at 90yds.

Some people are just that good.

SSN Vet
November 6, 2012, 04:31 PM
I suspect that many who use the term M.O.A. do not even know what a minute of angle is.

Because 1 MOA at 100 yds is (approximately) equal to 1", you'll hear a lot of talk about 1" groups..... So I'm convinced that some of the less mathematically inclined will assume that 1 MOA at 50 yds also = 1", and so on .... and so on.

Whatever....

I've shot BB guns, shotguns and 22s since I was a kid. I've had firearms instruction in the Navy and qualified Expert pistol. I've hunted some (mostly bow) and have now been "really into" guns since ~ 2006. I consider myself fairly proficient and have (with the exception of shooting while moving)... out shot my USMC reservist buddy (who was a Marksmanship Coach) every time.

Yet, for the record, I have never shot a bonifide 5 shot 1" group at 100 yds.

Still trying.... came close the other week.... but no cigar.

I have a rifle that I think holds promise .... but not there yet.

Jason_W
November 6, 2012, 05:24 PM
I'd settle for minute of paper plate at 25 yards with a handgun.

Handgunning is not among my natural talents, though I still can't wait to get back into that game soon.

whtsmoke
November 6, 2012, 05:32 PM
I go out everytime to the range trying to get that sub moa target and work hard at it and expend alot of ammo doing it to no avail, oh well just another excuse to go to the range:rolleyes:

Pete D.
November 6, 2012, 06:32 PM
I, too, have often wondered about the veracity/accuracy of some of what is said here and on other forums.
To wit: "Then another's handgun will shoot 1" offhand standing all day long at 25 yards."
That is a good example. A one inch group at 25 yards is good enough to give the shooter ten Xs on a Bullseye slow fire target. So....why is the shooter not the national champion? If he can shoot the timed and rapid stages as well, the trophy is his for the taking.
With talent like that, if it were real, not competing is a waste of a remarkable ability.
Some of the difference can be, I am certain, chalked up to what a shooter means by "offhand". For me, it means shooting with one hand, unsupported. To another, both hands are on the gun. Quite a difference there.
For the record, the National record for 25 yard slow fire with a .22 pistol is 199 9x.
For the .45, it is 199 8x. Twenty shots.

k_dawg
November 6, 2012, 06:56 PM
People often talk about that one magic grouping, and not the others. I also shoot different firearms differently. I am not going for maximum bullseye targetting with my defense weapons.

For example, yesterday I got some great groupings on my Kimber .22lr Conversion. I was sighting in my JPoint [ have to remove the sight to change the battery ]. Once dialed in and at 20 yards, I shot a 5 target sheet 5 rounds per target.

First two have a group of ~7/8" (center to center, offhand standing). Last two have a group of ~1/4" (center to center, standing with shoulder/weakside against partian). Middle one? Well, lets not talk about that one.

With the .45acp upper, I am not shooting for maximum precision. I'm shooting semi-rapidly. As long as I can hit a 9 on a police silouette at any reasonable range with both eyes open, I'm happy.

By and large, for most firearms and ammunition, I am the limiting factor.

KAS1981
November 6, 2012, 07:02 PM
Twenty-five yards? Are some folks just that good?

This is how I shot at 25 feet a few days ago:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y240/KAS300/shooting11-4-122.jpg

At 50 feet my groups opened up to about the edges of the 8 ring. I hate to think what they'd be at 75 feet.

mls
November 6, 2012, 07:05 PM
I do understand the op's question. This is the internet, however. The truth, is Camp Perry, if you want to take a road trip and see for yourself. True, not your out of the box guns or ammo, but try it on with the wind, sun, rain and noise and pressure. If you are not shooting high ninety percent at fifty yards, you are not going to show up on the board.

Take pleasure in what you are doing and trying to accomplish. Test yourself every time at the range and don't worry about anyone else or what they brag about..

I see all the time, people so proud of their groups at 7 to 10 yards. Well, good for them. If that is what their goals are then more power to them. Practice and more practice. If you are going longer...a lot, as in a lot, more practice...

readyeddy
November 6, 2012, 07:05 PM
I just wouldn't get worked up over it. Who cares if the guy can shoot tight groups or if the guy is being dishonest? Now if the fella was selling me his gun and claimed that it can shoot "one ragged hole" all day long, well then it's probably time to go to the range and see for myself.

blarby
November 6, 2012, 07:10 PM
The best part is, this type of consistent shooting does not exist in reality.

I cant do it, my wife does it all the time.

Thats not bragging, its envy.

wgaynor
November 6, 2012, 07:22 PM
Don't believe what you see on tv or read on the internet... It's good to remain skeptical but always challenge yourself to do extraordinary things.

Hardtarget
November 6, 2012, 07:27 PM
Some years ago I shot with a club called Nashville Matchmasters. I only shot for fun while some were serious competitors. Walked in one evening and Mr. Riggle wanted to show me a set of targets. After work on his Colt .45 he was working up new loads to shoot matches with. Useing a Ransom Rest, at 50 yds. ,he showed five targets. Groups went from about 6" to 3" to just under 2"...then opened up as more powder was used. He laughed and said the 2"er was his load and he had no excuse when he missed at 25 yds. It would be him...not the gun. He was a good shot but he couldn't hold tight enough to repeat that group consistantly. I saw him shoot a few "ratty hole" groups but not on every target.

So, I see what you mean. Some of these super shooters should be winning all these competitions...every time!

Every shooter gets a surprise once in a while. That really great small group...just not on command.:D

Mark

MrBorland
November 6, 2012, 07:33 PM
"Then another's handgun will shoot 1" offhand standing all day long at 25 yards."

That is a good example. A one inch group at 25 yards is good enough to give the shooter ten Xs on a Bullseye slow fire target. So....why is the shooter not the national champion?


Well, part of the problem is exemplified right here. The first claim is about the gun itself. Nonetheless, that little detail often gets missed, so it's interpreted as a statement about the shooter's ability.

browningguy
November 6, 2012, 07:42 PM
Some of you are just hanging with the wrong crowds. If you want to see itty bitty groups with handguns go to your local Bullseye match. Want to see tiny groups with rifles then the NBRSA matches will make you happy.

The problem is the vast majority of people have neither the skill, or the inclination to practice enough, to shoot really tiny groups consistantly. And don't go comparing your factory built Remchester to what folks are shooting in competitions, not the same animal, even in Hunter class it's not at all a facotry gun. The same with pistols, the winners are shooting pretty darn good guns and your factory glocks, colts, CZ's, whatevers won't shoot with them.

Nuclear
November 6, 2012, 07:55 PM
I'm better than a lot of shooters at the ranges I go to, but I'm nowhere near as good as a lot of people. I used to shoot with a group of bowling pin shooters. They started with a table of full sized pins at 45 feet, and ended up with a table of the top half of pins at 45 feet. And some of those guys could clean that table as fast as you could pull the trigger 10 times. Some with a .22lr, some with a 45ACP, one guy used a revolver because semi-autos weren't a challenge. I just shot for fun with that group.

45_auto
November 6, 2012, 07:56 PM
I've only been in the gun community now for a couple years but one thing that has always perplexed me is people claiming that they can shoot groups that are extraordinarily small compared to what is seen in real life.

Read what browningguy said. How many Bullseye, Steel Plate, Benchrest, IDPA, or GSSF matches have you participated in?

If you're just observing what the typical non-competitive local yokels can do, then you have no idea of what can be seen in real life.

wanderinwalker
November 6, 2012, 08:18 PM
It's all relative to who you're shooting with and what you're shooting.

I've shot a few Highpower rifle matches (see my signature line) and I have shot some pretty small groups with iron sights using my AR Service Rifle. Somewhere I have a cut-out of a target with the first 5-shots through my new barrel last season. It's 2" at 200-yards, shot prone. No load work-up, no testing, no "barrel break-in", I just dug out some "scrap" ammo and went to the range.

At the same time, I've seen some incredible shooting by others that makes me shake my head in wonder. And enough to know some claims truly are absurd.

(Oh, and on a good day my 25-yd handgun groups hover around 4".)

Kendahl
November 6, 2012, 09:56 PM
My wife and I admit to being mediocre shooters. Our handguns are a 6" model 19 S&W, 4" Colt Diamondback, High Standard .22 and Colt Gold Cup. The black bullseye in our targets is 5.5" in diameter. We shoot slowly at 25 yards, cocking the revolvers between shots. Holding with one hand or both, but not a rest, we are pleased when we can keep all our shots in the black. Results are about the same for all of our guns. We have seen shooters who are better, especially those who compete in bullseye, but many who are not as good.

bushmaster1313
November 6, 2012, 10:33 PM
I can guarantee that this 57 year old gun shot this well at 100 yards with American Eagle .357 ammo and the shooter's wrist resting on a sand bag:

http://i1270.photobucket.com/albums/jj603/bushmaster1313/CIMG1118.jpg

http://i1270.photobucket.com/albums/jj603/bushmaster1313/CIMG1122.jpg

TreeDoc
November 6, 2012, 10:42 PM
I just take this BS with a grain of salt and move on.

jim243
November 6, 2012, 10:47 PM
The best part is, this type of consistent shooting does not exist in reality.

Yes it does, but you have to handload your own ammo just for your own rifle or pistol.

Get into reloading and see how much better you will be able to shoot.

This is a stock Savage Model 110 package gun in 270 Wichester with no special work on it, standard stock that came with the rifle, scope has been changed and handloaded 130 grain Hornady SST's at 100 yards 5 shot group. It takes pratice more pratice and even more practice.

Jim

This is one of my less accurate rifles.

http://i620.photobucket.com/albums/tt284/bigjim_02/SAM_0447.jpg

http://i620.photobucket.com/albums/tt284/bigjim_02/image0.jpg


I no longer use the bullseyes with this rifle, I just use the cross haches on my targets since the bullseye is too large a target at 100 yards.

http://i620.photobucket.com/albums/tt284/bigjim_02/SAM_0245.jpg

You have to WANT to shoot small groups to be good at it and take the necessary work to get there.

bushmaster1313
November 6, 2012, 11:03 PM
100 yards with a .243 Winchester 88 off a bag with Federal 80 Grain Soft Point (the cheap stuff):

http://i1270.photobucket.com/albums/jj603/bushmaster1313/CIMG1199.jpg

http://i1270.photobucket.com/albums/jj603/bushmaster1313/IMG_0780-1.jpg

BLB68
November 6, 2012, 11:11 PM
Nice rifles. But I think the OP was mostly concerned with claims of handgun accuracy, as indicated by the thread title.

For my part, I'm not a great shot, but not a terrible shot. I remember when 100 yard targets seemed like they were right on top of me, but my eyes have aged to the point that 25 yards seems pretty far away. So it goes.

bushmaster1313
November 6, 2012, 11:32 PM
Try a diopter when shooting handgun

PedalBiker
November 6, 2012, 11:40 PM
My shooting improved a lot when I got glasses. It improved a lot more when I got a Savage in .243.

On the other hand my cousin shot 1 hole groups at 300 yards with his M-16 when he was in the Marines. He did use his glasses. I didn't believe him.

It's not just the internet.

After a while you'll learn to ID those who can vs those who talk. Quite a lot of amazing stuff is done by those who take the time to perfect the art.

Fotno
November 6, 2012, 11:45 PM
I am not a great shooter, but I'm getting better.

When I first started seriously shooting handguns about 10 years ago, I was doing good to keep my groups in an 8" pie plate at ten yards. The last time I went to the indoor range I frequent, I took a couple of semi-autos and a 6 shot snubnosed revolver cause I like shooting it. Towards the end of my session, I got out a box of .38 special, loaded up the snubbie, and cranked the target all the way out to 25 yards. With that gun, I can now consistently keep six rounds inside a 2 inch circle at that range firing off hand.

If someone had told me that I would be able to do that when I first started shooting, I'd have called them a liar. If my vision will hold out, I think I can get better yet. I still have weaknesses I'm working on.

JohnKSa
November 7, 2012, 12:08 AM
Sub-MOA at 25 yards with a handgun shooting offhand would be pretty awesome! Quarter inch groups with a handgun at 25 yards is some good shooting, even from a rest with a decent optical sight.

Getting down to an inch at 25 yards (4MOA) is still very good, although more within the realm of possible.

I've shot a couple of 25 yard groups down around an inch in my entire shooting career, but that's definitely not the norm for me. Best I can do these days is more like 10-14MOA (2.5"-3.5") for a 5 shot group. I might shoot 5 or 6 careful 25 yard groups trying for maximum accuracy in the course of a range trip and end up with two or three "bragging" groups to bring home.

BLB68
November 7, 2012, 12:11 AM
Try a diopter when shooting handgun

I've considered it, but I don't really attempt much precision shooting with a handgun nowadays. I'm down to just my CCW, and manage OK at typical SD distances.

What I really need to do is get in to an optometrist and get my eyes examined and get some glasses. Unfortunately, my eyes started to go right before I had another major medical issue that I'm not fully recovered from.

FROGO207
November 7, 2012, 01:43 AM
I shoot with one of our Bullseye competitors at the local range and he is a fair shot. He can use his race gun and selected batch of ammo to shoot a 10 shot group at the 50 foot NRA target that you can cover with a quarter, or on a good night a nickel----and do it all night long. Helps that at Camp Perry each year he is at least in the top 15 shooters year after year. He said it is not the group size that wins or looses it is group placement that is king. He he It helps to have a goal to aim for and I want to at least match him once.:D I was at the gun club last weekend sighting in a new scope and there were a couple late teen--20's fellows shooting at torso targets and at 15 feet they missed the targets more than they hit them. I thought one guy was going to hit his boot with a bullet one time. I let them both try my crappy NEF SB2 in .223 that I had just sighted in and they both hit the plastic peanut butter jar cover I had tacked on the target backer at 100 YDS within 2 shots using my reloads. They both thought that rifle was really a good one.:)

I can shoot OK but have lots of room for improvement.:)

murf
November 7, 2012, 01:48 AM
there are no guarantees. there are $2,000 lemons out there. there are $200 tack drivers out there.

you pay your money and take your chances.

murf

BigN
November 7, 2012, 03:33 AM
I believe some shooters are better than others, some guns are inherently more accurate than others. Things here are imbellished a bit, stretched a bit and written for the entertainment of the reader. This is the internet, and afterall, we're all tough guys here, we're all doctors & lawyers here. You can be whatever you want to be here. It's a dream world and if you're just going to be your boring old self, what's the point? :evil:

Cosmoline
November 7, 2012, 03:54 AM
Best I've ever managed consistently is quarter size (not quarter inch!) 20 yard groups with a very nice Official Police shooting 158 grain LRN's. But these days I focus on 15 yard rapid fire going for fist-size groups. I try not to waste much time aiming.

but you have to handload your own ammo just for your own rifle or pistol.

Yes but are you shooting those big, scoped rifles with bipods off hand? It's not difficult to get consistent groups when your rifle or handgun is rested.

Sav .250
November 7, 2012, 08:14 AM
If you stick long enough, somebody will say,they put all 10 shots into the same hole. Plus,they can do it at 1000 yds.......off hand using a 22 cal using only "shorts" for ammo. More power to them...I say.
Seems some shoot way better than trained snipers according to them. :)

WNTFW
November 7, 2012, 10:36 AM
I used to race bicycles, motorcycles and dabbled in car racing. Recreational people thought they knew what fast was. Going to an event would shock them. A ride in a car with a fast driver could be a terrifying epiphany.
Going to any handgun match will do it for a shooter. I live in Louisiana and recently had 2 guys from out of state tell me the level of shooters in LA is pretty high.
Seeing anything at a competitive level gives you a chance to be astounded. Local model building competitions proved some people were just head & shoulders above the rest. If you ever attend a duck carving show you might be wowed by what you see.
People are just awesome in general. A hardworking obsessed human being is a force of nature. The work part is often under appreciated.

CountryUgly
November 7, 2012, 10:47 AM
I'll say it's a 50/50 split. There are some amazing shooters out there and a ton of really good average ones. With that said there are an equal number of "mall ninja operators" who claim 100yrd DNs accuracy while barrel rolling and finishing with a slew of "quickscoping" shots with their airsoft AR that no collective group of bandits could ever escape. If you are at the range tell 'em to put up or shut up and if you are online just tell 'em to shut up. Don't be surprised when a few leave you with your jaw hanging at the feat of extreme speed and accuracy you just witnessed though. Practice with any one or number of guns enough and anyone can get really really good.

holdencm9
November 7, 2012, 11:09 AM
I think it is just like anything else. You can be pretty darn good in your own right, but there is almost certainly someone out there that can blow you out of the water.

I consider myself a really good ballplayer, but I am still not even close to the same level as college players or minor leagues, much less the majors. That's how it is with shooting.

Now, if all you ever knew was your co-ed recreational softball league, and you were the all-star, you'd probably be pretty dismissive of someone saying they could jack a 500' homer. But if Jim Thome stepped into the box and did just that, and you saw it with your own eyes, you would believe it.

The public range is the rec league. The high-level competitions are the major leagues. It's hard to even compare.

MrBorland
November 7, 2012, 11:32 AM
I guess ultimately what I'm asking is how do you weed out fact from fiction on accuracy when purchasing a new firearm?

By now, you should've gotten the message that one answer is to start competing.

For one thing, if you're soley shooting at the "rec league" (the local stand-n-shoot range), you're wholly dependent on the internet for the info you seek, and you're now finding that unreliable. And once you start competing, you'll see what's do-able with practice, while the competition will up your own game. And you'll be able to talk firsthand with good shooters about what really works and what doesn't. You might be surprised when you do, though - compared to many on these forums, competitive shooters seem to obsess less on gear and more on shooting. That's why they're good shooters, after all.

Malamute
November 7, 2012, 11:47 AM
It's been pretty well covered, but I'll reiterate a few points.

Few are willing to spend the time, money and effort (read work) to become above average, let alone very good or exceptional. Many competitive shooters are very good or exceptional. Read up on the old time exhibition shooters, they were just flat stunningly amazing, and they did it in front of hundreds of people at a time on a regular basis. Hitting small objects tossed in the air isnt "trick" shooting (and no, the real deals dont use shot loads), its outstanding shooting, and it's real. Jordan was reportedly able to hit 5 asprin tablets thrown in the air. Other exhibiton shooters have been able to consistantly shoot through the hole in a washer thrown in the air, with tape over the hole to prove it. Some people are also just real good at certain things, having a natural aptitude for some thngs, and having outstanding eyesight helps.

Just because the local crowd, or any individual can't do it doesnt mean it can't be done. Spend enough time and effort getting good at somethng, and you may amaze even yourself, but be prepared for others that can't do it to call you a liar.

Some people also simply aren't intereted in competition. Just because they can do something well doesn't mean they are interested in playing that particular game with it. They dont have to prove anything to you or anyone else, they know what they can do, and enjoy it for its own sake. I knew one such shooter. He was quite capable of hitting silver dollars thrown in the air, making 300 yard hits on rocks the size of a gallon jug, and shooting cigarettes out of people mouths, and I'd seen him do those things, as had many others. He did some local exhibiton shooting over the years, but had absolutely no interest in shooting competions of any sort (and he would have cleaned house had he wanted to), he simply loved shooting, and the history associated with it. He shot everything with a Colt SAA 45, all one handed. He was probably not quite as good as some of the well known exhibition shooters, but to say he was pretty good may be an understatement. I shot with him a few times, and saw some of is exhibtion shoots. He inspired me to try harder, and at things I hadn't pushed myself to do before. For my part, I take the naysayers with a grain of salt, not the other way around.

I agree with Mr Borland, competition can be a very good motivator and teacher. It doesnt appeal to some, tho if they have the motivation, can become very good, if not outstanding.

TrueTexan
November 7, 2012, 11:57 AM
I'm a fair shot. I shot rife team in High School ROTC and was okay. Now shooting very many years later I'm happy shooting 100 rounds and keeping my shots within the inner part of the 9 ring on a silhouette target at 15 yards with my 686 3 inch. Some day I'll do it at 25 yards. What is sad is I see other people at the range that think they are doing great when the target looks like it was hit with multiple rounds of birdshot.

tomrkba
November 7, 2012, 12:05 PM
25 yards is approximately 1/4 MOA which translates to approximately 1/4".

I cannot shoot handguns that well and am happy with 4-6" groups.

Impureclient
November 7, 2012, 12:15 PM
Wow, now that I looked it up there are a ton of videos shot nonstop of consistent amazing grouping at 25 yards and beyond.

natman
November 7, 2012, 02:09 PM
Wow, now that I looked it up there are a ton of videos shot nonstop of consistent amazing grouping at 25 yards and beyond.
There are hundreds of guys who can actually do it.

There are hundreds of thousands of guys who claim they can actually do it.

SloChicken
November 8, 2012, 02:08 AM
I believe some shooters are better than others, some guns are inherently more accurate than others. Things here are imbellished a bit, stretched a bit and written for the entertainment of the reader. This is the internet, and afterall, we're all tough guys here, we're all doctors & lawyers here. You can be whatever you want to be here. It's a dream world and if you're just going to be your boring old self, what's the point? :evil:
This is the,
Best,
Post,
Ever ...

MyGreenGuns
November 8, 2012, 05:21 AM
When I first started shooting, I was happy shooting paper at close distance at a range. I got better than the average range shooter with my primary handgun and moved outdoors.

Out in the sticks I met a group that is scary-good. I shoot with them and I am a student. Theyre shooting at coins and beercaps while I shoot cans at half the distance. They view my ability as "better than average".

I also shoot with a group that are all novice, and I am the teacher. They see my ability as "amazing".

I like shooting with the pros, it makes me try harder. I like shooting with the noobs, it lets me feel like a pro.
:cool:

Trent
November 8, 2012, 09:50 AM
I sold a 9mm G19 to a guy because I wasn't shooting well with it. I couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. (Well, it wasn't THAT bad, but it WAS bad enough that I had no interest in the firearm any longer.)

A month later, I ran in to him at the range during a match. He went on to beat me in Minor Auto so profoundly and thoroughly that I about cried. He was using my old gun, as is, no changes made. He set the course record that day.

I don't regret selling the firearm; in fact it's the first and only time I was 100% sure that I'd sold a gun to the "right home." Some people are just a natural match for certain firearms.

He's a hell of a shot, we run in to each other sometimes at the range and trade pieces for a few strings; he invariably kicks my behind no matter what we're using on the pistol range. Rifle range... different story. Not many locals can keep up with me on rifles. :)

Sheepdog1968
November 8, 2012, 02:00 PM
I tend to find folks obsess about group size. From a practical perspective, if you can shoot a 4" group that is usually good enough for that distance for hunting or self defense applications. Often I tend to shoot about 3 MOA with my rifles and I'm satisified with that most of the time. Pistols, the furthest I shoot is usually 15 yards. I can do better than 4" groups if I want to slow down.

Impureclient
November 8, 2012, 04:16 PM
My title only had handguns in it but this subject is not just handgun related. I figured since I mentioned rimfires at 50 and scopes in the original post that this would have been construed as any gun. It was a general question which came about after reading about a .22 rifle elsewhere.

Dnaltrop
November 8, 2012, 04:23 PM
With Pistols, once I'm familiar with the gun/load, 4" at 50' is fairly standard for me if I take any sort of time with the shots. (Opens up at speed, but still decent on silhouettes)

With a .38, .40, 9mm or .45, at 7-10 yards I pick off empty .410 shells, stuck onto the ends of twigs and blades of grass with decent consistency.

The Schofield replica tends to get very inaccurate past 7 yards,

I can't quite cloverleaf the Blackhawk. (still working loads and sight adjustments, but it's CCW worthy, just not hunting-worthy yet)

The High Standard .22 M Frame is a great gun.

First shot is high speed, Second photo is VERY Slow fire, both unsupported at 50'. (edit, and yes, that is probably the best grouping that I've ever shot, hands down. )

Vern Humphrey
November 8, 2012, 04:34 PM
I have a Colt Woodsman, made in 1938, that can shoot 3/4" groups at 25 yards -- if I really concentrate. But that's the only handgun I have (out of 13 in my gun safe) that will do that.

armoredman
November 8, 2012, 06:58 PM
This is about average for me. From the holster I don't get quite so good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4M-i8dO6I0U&feature=g-upl

armoredman
November 8, 2012, 07:04 PM
This one is longer and more fun, plus you see I miss some of the time, too. :)
I consider myself to be above average as a pistol shot as compared to my coworkers, and about average compared to the gun owning public.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-_5S6-1zyU&feature=context-gau

BLB68
November 9, 2012, 02:37 PM
What are Thugly's dimensions?

Vern Humphrey
November 9, 2012, 03:32 PM
A little slimmer than Fugly, but not so tall.:p

armoredman
November 9, 2012, 03:53 PM
Thugly, (goofy name that popped into my head when it arrived in the mail), is 14 1/4" tall at the "head", and 8 7/8" wide, 3/8" thick AR500.

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b13/armoredman/range%20trip/IDPA2.jpg

The company that sent it to me no longer exists, but a new local outfit is making steel targets, ShootersElement.

ljnowell
November 9, 2012, 04:26 PM
I shoot bullseye competitvely, so yeah, I can really shoot some nice groups, and know lots of guys that can. I also see lots of people on here make some pretty crazy claims. Its normal in the gun world though.

There was a local guy that hung around the gun shop and bragged about how good his groups were, always at 25 yards. Finally one day me and another guy took him to the range with us. He went out and put a target out at about 12 yards. Then proceeded to brace himself on the shooting bench and shoot from rest. When I asked him what he was doing, he said he was getting in his 25 yard practice.

CraigC
November 9, 2012, 04:31 PM
Some folks need to get out more. I've shot sub-MOA at 25yds with a scoped pistol. One time. It was not off-hand but over sandbags.

I have several revolvers that will do 1"@25yds but again, this is over sandbags. If I hold my mouth just right, those sixguns will do 2" at 50yds. Which is the gold standard.

I wouldn't keep a fixed barrel .22 auto like the Buckmark or Ruger MK-series if it did not shoot "@25yds, again, benchrested.

That said, there is a lot of BS on the internet. There's also a lot of shooters with a broad range of experience. There is also seemingly a lot who think that because they can't do something, no one can. I don't post anything that is not true. If there were extenuating circumstances, I share that. My numbers are almost always benched. For I really don't care how any other shooter can do on his hind legs, so I don't bother to bore others with my off-hand shooting results. I just want to know what the guns are capable of. Those are facts that are actually useful, to me.

armoredman
November 9, 2012, 04:37 PM
I've seen some really good shooters who just blow me away without thinking about it. Having run both indoor and outdoor ranges in my time, I've also seen some that were so bad standing in front of them was almost the safest place to be! I especially loved the ones who shot "gangsta" sideways style, and would thrust the gun forward at the moment of the shot, perhaps to pick up another 2 or 3 FPS? They usually were very proud of hitting a full size B-27 at 3 yards. I'd be proud to, trying to shoot like that...:what:
I was out with a buddy not too long ago who was shooting Pugly, (looks like a pig's head, from the same company, hence the name he chose),

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b13/armoredman/range%20trip/LarrysteeltargetPUGLYat100yards.jpg

...and hitting it with a Ruger Redhawk at 200 yards, benched, no optics. He shrugged it off. Note the hit on the stand to the right - I think I did that when I tried to copy his feat with his permission...oops. That was probably as close as I got...the hole at the top was him, I swear it. Really.

Ankeny
November 9, 2012, 06:22 PM
Spend some time hanging around good shooters in IDPA, USPSA, Bullseye, Steel Challenge, SASS, 3-Gun, GSSF, among others, and you will see it is quite common. I do spend a bit of time hanging around some good shooters. Still, I see plenty of claims on the Web (including this forum) that exceed the accepted limits of human ability. This especially true when you read some of the posts that combine accuracy with speed. Internet BS isn't worth getting all torn down about. But I have to admit it is fun to raise the BS flag from time to time (maybe a little troll deep down inside). ;)

mls
November 9, 2012, 06:23 PM
Beware the offer to bring your gun, ammo and cash...you will leave with two if you are lucky.

Vern Humphrey
November 9, 2012, 06:48 PM
I do spend a bit of time hanging around some good shooters. Still, I see plenty of claims on the Web (including this forum) that exceed the accepted limits of human ability.
Look at the title of this thread, minute of angle at 25 yards. That's a 1/4" group!

With my most accurate gun, the one I shoot best (a 1938 Colt Woodsman), I can shoot a 3/4" group if I do everything right. A 1/4" group shot from a standing unsupported position? I'd have to see it to believe it.

kwhi43@kc.rr.com
November 9, 2012, 07:05 PM
This is a target I shot in competition at 25 yds. One hand free standing.
10 shots. This is not fourm BS, but the real thing. And yes I do shoot at
the Nationals each year and I do win sometimes. The kicker here is that
this is Black Powder Muzzleloading shooting.
http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o127/prizzel/SmallS.jpg

45_auto
November 9, 2012, 07:16 PM
Well, you're obviously not shooting sub-MOA (which would be 1/4 inch) at 25 yards, so you've proven that you meet the OP's requirement to read this thread.

If I posted one of my targets, I wouldn't be allowed to read this thread. ;)

Vern Humphrey
November 9, 2012, 07:49 PM
I think we have some confusion. "MOA" means "Minute of Angle" In other words, group size is proportionate to range. A minute of angle subtends about 1" at 100 yards. At 25 yards, a minute of angle would subtend 1/4". At 200 yards, it would subtend 2" and so on.

snakeman
November 9, 2012, 07:54 PM
I get what you're saying. I am a good shot with my rifles and off a bench I can produce one hole groups given my gun can. However, with a handgun 1" at 25 yards isn't impossible, again off a bench. Offhand I can usually hover around 3" at 25 yards with my 357 and m&p 9mm. I can get about 2" with my buckmark.

Vern Humphrey
November 9, 2012, 08:12 PM
However, with a handgun 1" at 25 yards isn't impossible
A 1" group at 25 yards is a 4 MOA group.

To achieve a MOA at 25 yards, you'd have to shoot a 1/4" group.

armoredman
November 11, 2012, 12:33 AM
The day I shoot a 1/4 inch five shot group at 25 yards with any of my handguns, is the day I'm going to go buy a lottery ticket on the way home, because that will be the luckiest day of my life. :)

mjsdwash
November 11, 2012, 01:33 AM
around here, many people confuse yards with feet, and consider one shot to be "all day"

1911Tuner
November 11, 2012, 06:45 AM
Got here late, and haven't read every post...so this may have already been covered.

I've noticed in a few examples that some people will brag about an amazingly small group that they've shot once, and ignore the others that weren't nearly as impressive. As to that, I once fired a 3/4-inch 3-shot group at 200 yards with a .308 Ruger Ultralight from the sitting position...and the rifle had never done better than 1.25 inches from the bags at half that distance. I considered that group to be a fluke...then and now.

If you shoot enough, anything can happen. Once.

Whenever I hear claims of that sort of accuracy, I wonder if it was a one-time thing. Depending on how prickly I'm feeling on that particular day, I may ask...or not...how many such groups the shooter has produced, because I'm not impressed by what has been done once, or even occasionally. The question is whether that shooter, using that rifle or pistol and that ammunition can do it on demand. If I'm in a particularly persnickety mood, I'll simply say: "Show me. Do it now. No warm-up shots. No alibis. Just load the gun and do it."

JohnBT
November 11, 2012, 10:00 AM
"I'm not impressed by what has been done once, or even occasionally."

I am a little. After all, look at all the many guns and shooters who've never had even an accidental small group.

Would you rag on a guy who bragged about rolling a perfect 300 after 40 years of trying?

John

1911Tuner
November 11, 2012, 10:12 AM
Would you rag on a guy who bragged about rolling a perfect 300 after 40 years of trying?

Not unless he used that one incident as proof of his superior skill.

I once hit a junk license plate at an estimated 400 yards from standing/offhand with a field grade rifle and a fixed 4-power scope.
Could I do it again in 10 tries? I seriously doubt it.

i.e.

"Anybody can do it once. Impress me. Do it three times in a row...with a witness."

TAKtical
November 11, 2012, 10:17 AM
Its similar to the fishing forums where everyone that you talk to has caught a 100lb+ fish. The best I can do at 25 yards is a 3" group shooting very slowly with a highly customized glock 17. I rarely shoot for that type of accuracy. Normally I will shoot as fast as possible and try to keep all 17 shots on a 6" shoot-n-c. Bullseye shooting to me is the most boring thing you can do with a pistol. I would rather run-n-gun in the woods and get 12" groups than stand pefectly still at an indoor range wasting ammo trying to get "sub MOA groups" just for internet bragging rights.

Buck13
November 11, 2012, 10:22 AM
Even better, after offering him a few tips, he raised his revo and shot a 2" group himself.

What are these tips of which you speak? My 5-6" groups at 25 yards and I would like to hear them.

tuj
November 11, 2012, 10:24 AM
My best, (true off-hand, 1-handed), 5.4MOA at 20 yards, 10 shots.

http://renkucorp.com/jf/pics/guns/izh35m/clean_target_sm.jpg

MrBorland
November 11, 2012, 12:38 PM
Quote:
Would you rag on a guy who bragged about rolling a perfect 300 after 40 years of trying?

Not unless he used that one incident as proof of his superior skill.

JohnBT's got a point Tuner. We all shoot around a bell curve, so statistically, to get such a small group by chance is vanishingly small if it's more than about 3 standard deviations from his norm. IOW, it may be a small group, and it may be well above his norm, but his baseline is pretty high. It would take someone of lesser skill several lifetimes to get such a group.

If I'm in a particularly persnickety mood, I'll simply say: "Show me. Do it now. No warm-up shots. No alibis. Just load the gun and do it."


"Anybody can do it once. Impress me. Do it three times in a row...with a witness."

Yowzer - your criteria is creeping up. It was "once, on demand", now it's gotta be 3 times...in a row...with a witness. Still, simply demanding a demo is low risk for the demander. Persnickety moods can be tempered if, say, the shooter gets his choice of 1911s from your safe if he does, in fact, back up his claim on your demand.


Originally Posted by MrBorland
Even better, after offering him a few tips, he raised his revo and shot a 2" group himself.

What are these tips of which you speak? My 5-6" groups at 25 yards and I would like to hear them.

Interestingly, I offered no tips on his trigger control or sight picture. The tips I offered were about avoiding the common traps that undermine our own ability. Generally, they fall into 2 categories:

1. Forget about the target. Shooting well isn't about shooting small groups - it's about the fundamentals. The target is merely a recording device. You can look at it after you're done, but until then, each and every shot is about sight picture, trigger control, and mental management. Get those right, and the target takes care of itself.

2. Take your time. A 5 shot group is a 5-shot group. Unless mandated, no one said it has to be on a silhouette target, a continuous string of 5 shots, or within the span of a few seconds. So use an appropriate bullseye-type target, and abort the shot if anything isn't quite right. You held too long, you suddenly had an "idiot thought", you grip changed slightly, etc etc. Lower the gun and your eyes (i.e., don't look at the target), get your mental focus back, relax, breaths, raise the gun & try again. Abort again, if necessary.

1911Tuner
November 11, 2012, 01:47 PM
Yowzer - your criteria is creeping up. It was "once, on demand", now it's gotta be 3 times...in a row...with a witness.

Not really. If he can do it 3 ties in a row, I'm satisfied that he can do it on demand.

And I'm not really taking about the bell curve that we all labor under. I'm referring to a shockingly good performance that occasionally happens with mediocre shooters and mediocre guns...and then holding that up as representative. All of us have occasionally made a phenomenal shot. Most of us, however, don't pretend that it proves anything except that it was a phenomenal shot that we probably couldn't replicate.

i.e. If you shoot at a running antelope a half-mile away with a 4-inch revolver, and drop it in its tracks, you...as a reasonable human being...wouldn't go around making the claim that you can kill running antelope a half-mile away with a 4-inch revolver.

So...When I hear somebody make fanciful claims...I say: "Show me."

Persnickety moods can be tempered if, say, the shooter gets his choice of 1911s from your safe if he does, in fact, back up his claim on your demand.

I'm afraid that my 1911s are fairly pedestrian in the accuracy department. Surely none would present a serious threat at a Bullseye match. Intrinsic accuracy has never been my primary goal. Reliability is. At 25 yards, from the bags with good ammunition, my best one might stay inside 2 inches, but I wouldn't bet on it.

JohnBT
November 11, 2012, 04:52 PM
"Anybody can do it once"

Funny thing is, in my experience most of them never do. The majority of people I've seen rarely make a lucky shot, much less ever shoot a lucky group.

This subject reminds me of a quote in a Harlan Ellison book:
There are 10,000 species of fish in the sea... "I caught one, I caught one."

John

Mike OTDP
November 11, 2012, 09:18 PM
http://i1132.photobucket.com/albums/m571/Mike_McDaniel/KuchTgtSmall.jpg
Best work I've ever done. Shot at 25 yards, offhand. Both targets are 13-shot groups.

guyfromohio
November 11, 2012, 09:23 PM
Lol... I can't see a 10 ring at 25 yards, let alone group at 2" offhand.

Mike OTDP
November 12, 2012, 12:40 AM
You don't need to. Focus on sight alignment.

Pete D.
November 12, 2012, 04:23 PM
Nice shooting, Mike.
Tell us about the gun and the load.
Pete

tipoc
November 13, 2012, 02:54 AM
Below is some average shooting.

I shot this group at 25 yards leaning on the door of my vehicle. 38 Super Winchester White box 130 gr. FMJ. About 2 seconds between rounds. I do better off sandbags and worse off hand.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v432/tipoc/Colt%201961%2038%20Super/38sup3.jpg

Here is a J frame S&W 640 at 15 yards, 15 rounds from a rest. Speer Lawman ammo 158 gr. FMJ.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v432/tipoc/K%20and%20J%20Frames/m6404.jpg

S&W M13 at 25 yards resting on a shooting box slow double action. Speer Lawman ammo 158 gr.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v432/tipoc/K%20and%20J%20Frames/snub251.jpg

Colt GM at 25 yards from a Weaver. 29 rounds of Fiocchi 230 gr. ball.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v432/tipoc/Clark%20Custom/ccus3.jpg

Colt Commander and a Detonics Combat Master from a Weaver stance 15 yards Remington 230 gr. ball.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v432/tipoc/Commanders/twoguns8.jpg

A rapid fire drill with two Hi-Powers at 8 yards. Some one handed, double taps etc.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v432/tipoc/BHP/hpdrills.jpg

The above is average shooting. Some days I do better some worse. I tend to anticipate the shot and push into it.

tipoc

Mike OTDP
November 13, 2012, 09:31 AM
Pete - The gun is a percussion underhammer pistol made by Andreas Baumkircher. .36 caliber. Load is .350 RB/.010 patch / 12.5 grains Swiss #1 powder. Deep sub-six hold.

Trent
November 13, 2012, 12:13 PM
Pete - The gun is a percussion underhammer pistol made by Andreas Baumkircher. .36 caliber. Load is .350 RB/.010 patch / 12.5 grains Swiss #1 powder. Deep sub-six hold.

Wait.

You did that offhand at 25 yards with a muzzleloader?

Excuse me, I'll be back. I must vacate the internet space and go practice marksmanship.

Pete D.
November 13, 2012, 06:58 PM
Mike : not to hijack the thread. Have an underhammer also. marvelous gun. Great trigger. No groups like those, though. Not yet.
Pete

fastest45ever
November 14, 2012, 05:27 PM
Accuracy?

I guess ultimately what I'm asking is how do you weed out fact from fiction on accuracy when purchasing a new firearm?

Depends on who you are, what God gave you, and how much money you can spend.

Funny, but it also depends on what you are given to start with.

I thought all rifles shot under 1" at 100 yards my first day at the range.
All it takes is the guy taking you being an armourer for the Navy, building two matchgrade M1A's, and, two match grade AR-15's, with custom hand loads for both rifles and the best parts available, put together by an unmatched gunsmith.

Off the bench it was really easy to shoot under an inch. I spent the next
30 years trying to find a bolt action rifle that would do that.

I've had revolvers, and most of my autos, that are hyper-accurate.
Simple, either buy Freedom Arms revolvers, or have your guns built by
a top flight custom gunsmith.

I sold an FA 83 252. Guy put it in a Ransom rest, and it shoots 3/8" at 50 yards, with the right ammo. Never could do that with the gun, but I'm getting old.

The answer to your original question is do your research. It's not rocket science, and it's only money.

The range is a pretty good place to start. I've found that I can shoot certain guns well, even though I can't shoot the majority of their guns well.
Glock 34 and 35 come to mind.

The easiest way to get hyper-accurate guns is to become a gunwriter. Freedom Arms test fires every gun that goes out the door. I suspect the most accurate ones are sent to people to test, such as gunblast.com
.
The results are the guns, at their absolute highest potential. YMMV with the gun you get. I suspect almost all test guns are similarly picked.

Problem is you might get one that's really sloppy, made at the end of a production run, that shoots 3 times bigger groups then the one tested.

You pay your money, and take your chances. The more you spend, the more likely you are to get a tack driver, if you spend wisely, and pick a caliber that has inherent accuracy.

Some forums are for your average gun owners. Look at the thread
that asked what the best, most accurate gun you've ever shot was in this forum. That should give you an idea of who is on the forum.

You might ask that question of all the forums you frequent, and get back to us on who has the highest % of shooters that shoot hyper-accurate guns.

There is a .22lr forum I used to check out, but the stuff they shot was so exotic, and the groups pretty much so fantastic it was just amazing.

tuj
November 14, 2012, 05:30 PM
but the stuff they shot was so exotic

:-)

http://renkucorp.com/jf/pics/guns/pardini/pardini_sp.jpg

Pete D.
November 15, 2012, 08:26 AM
Earlier this year, Pat Franks set a new National record for a 2700 match at 25 yards for what is called conventional pistol - three stages of 90 shots each, .22rf, CF, .45.
Franks shot an aggregate score of 2673 - 153X/2700 - 270X. Interpreting a bit....out of 270 shots, on average, 243 were 10s, though the actual distribution may have been different. The two Xrings involved, slow fire and sustained fire, are 0.67" and 1.69" in diameter respectively. Of course, one can score an X without the shot being completely inside the ring. The ten rings are approximately double that in diameter.
Individual records for 20 shots precision shooting at 25 yards are all 199s. The best X count is John Zurek's CF score earlier this year at 199-10X.
Not bad shooting...one hand unsupported.

Hangingrock
November 15, 2012, 11:35 AM
http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc277/lowflash/IMG_4461.jpg
http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc277/lowflash/IMG_4270.jpg
http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc277/lowflash/IMG_4030.jpg
http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc277/lowflash/IMG_4695.jpg
Typical 25yd targets.

fastest45ever
November 15, 2012, 06:02 PM
Can't tell from the pictures the kind model of the guns.

Hangingrock
November 15, 2012, 06:19 PM
Glock G21, Springfield 1911-A1, S&W MP9 & Glock G17

Peter M. Eick
December 10, 2012, 09:24 AM
My only comment is about 30 years ago, I started shooting in earnest. I was terrible with a handgun.

I started at 5 yrds until I could keep all 50 of my shots in the black.
I then moved the target back to 7.5 yrds until I could keep all of my shots in the black.
I then moved the target back to 10 yrds until I could keep all of my shots in the black.
I then moved the target back to 15 yrds until I could keep all of my shots in the black.

Now 30 years later.....

I am at 25 yrds and I cannot keep all of my shots in the black.


Yet.


But it does not keep me from trying every time to keep all of my shots in the black.

5Wire
December 10, 2012, 12:17 PM
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_ICZrdEniubM/TH-yse0xUSI/AAAAAAABoLw/rhk8OqIPfEg/Picture%203.jpg

http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/nra/ssusa_201009/#/22

http://www.nrablog.com/image.axd?picture=2012%2F7%2Fnra_45_caliber_2012_target.jpg

http://www.nrablog.com/post/2012/07/17/NRA-45-Caliber-Championship.aspx

otasan56
December 10, 2012, 12:36 PM
I used to shoot well, but now the best I can do is keep 17 rounds of 9MM Parabellum on a target paper at 25 yards I figure that my 25 foot groups are still less than 4 inches. Good enough for SD purposes with my G17 at age 56.

Pete D.
December 10, 2012, 03:35 PM
5Wire: Nice, clean, targets. Both of them. Camp Perry?
Zins...almost magical. In fact, just about any of those high masters (you?) share that magic. Amazing to watch.
Easy to score too
Pete

beex215
December 10, 2012, 04:39 PM
i can shoot sub moa at 10 feet. yes, im that nice.

esheato
December 10, 2012, 05:34 PM
I've got a plaque of pins from IDPA, have lots of USPSA results with my name in the top 5, took 2nd at my first local benchrest match, placed middle of the pack at a 1k BR event, even have a trophy for a shotgun ironman tournament.

When I think of all the different gun games and genres I dabble in, I'm impressed.

I don't know if I'm genuinely good, and I know there are people better and worse but at the end of the day I am happy where I'm at.

Doesn't mean I'm not dry firing and practicing at night when you're not looking though. :neener:

45_auto
December 10, 2012, 06:20 PM
i can shoot sub moa at 10 feet.

Sub-moa at 10 feet will probably still be real close to sub-moa at 25 yards. As they say, pics or it didn't happen. Sub-moa at 10 feet would be about a .030 group (30 thousands of an inch).

MrBorland
December 10, 2012, 06:42 PM
As they say, pics or it didn't happen.

okey dokie :cool:

Unless noted, all shot unsupported, with revolver groups shot double action:

25 yards, 5 rounds, stock 4" S&W 617 .22LR, 0.95":
http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp239/becke016/GunsTargets/SW617B-16Freestyle.jpg

10 yards, 3 rounds, DAO 4" 686, benched (bottom, 0.25") and unsupported (top, 0.26"):
http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp239/becke016/GunsTargets/May2012Postal686.jpg

10 yards, 3 rounds, Ruger MkIII, benched (bottom, 0.31") and unsupported (top, 0.23"):
http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp239/becke016/GunsTargets/May2012Postal.jpg

15 yards, 5 rounds, stock S&W K-38:
http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp239/becke016/GunsTargets/MiscellaneousPicsfrom08196.jpg

Pete D.
December 10, 2012, 07:14 PM
Pics......45ACP indoors - 50 ft (17 yards) five shots on each.
http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr287/PeteDoyle/KPtarget.jpg

http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr287/PeteDoyle/5c99ae88.jpg

Yeah, I know.....ok group.....wrong place on the target. Story of my life. And not 1/4 MOA.
Alas.

MCgunner
December 10, 2012, 07:58 PM
I often quote what MY GUN will shoot off sandbags at 25 yards as a gauge for accuracy. Best I can shoot off sandbags with iron sights is around 1". If the gun shoots better than me, I'll never know it without mounting a scope or buying a ransom rest. With an accurate handgun, I can hold about 4" off hand at 25 if I'm not hungry or had too much coffee. :D I think that's pretty good, though I realize I'll never make the Olympic bullseye team. :rolleyes:

I always quote what the gun will do off sandbags best of MY ability at 25 yards to let everyone know what the GUN will do. I hear from some guys, "So, you're going to shoot someone at 25 yards, you'll be arrested." Or, "How is that relevant to a 7 yard shootout?" or some such. Hey, I may actually wanna shoot a rabbit at 25, done it before. I carry handguns outdoors and occasionally use 'em. I handgun hunt deer and hogs, too. And, well, you gotta have a standard for accuracy testing. 7 yards off hand rapid fire tells me absolutely nothing about the handgun, shooter maybe, but not the handgun. Now, at least, if you show me a benched group at 15, I can extrapolate that out at 25 yards and get a good idea what the gun/load is doing. I'm geared for 25 yard groups probably because that's what most of the magazine articles use in testing.

http://i49.tinypic.com/33n7w3r.jpg

420Stainless
December 10, 2012, 08:30 PM
I was fortunate as a boy (40+ years ago) to sometimes watch USN shooters that competed in bullseye. They could shoot amazingly well at 50 yards. You don't come across people that skilled often, but they are out there.

beex215
December 10, 2012, 08:56 PM
i was only joking on the sub moa at 10 feet. 1inch at 25 or so feet is normal, cuz thats how pro i am.

the other shots were unsized ammo testing with various lube mixes.

mr.trooper
December 10, 2012, 09:40 PM
Welcome to the internet. Dont feed the trolls.

45_auto
December 11, 2012, 07:50 AM
LMAO!!!

Hopefully you guys that posted the pictures do realize that you're NO WHERE near sub-moa??

okey dokie

25 Yards/ .95" : MOA at 25 yards is .26". You're at about 4 MOA there.

10 Yards/ .26" : MOA at 10 yards is .10". You're at about 2.5 MOA there.

10 yards, .31" & .23" : See above.

15 Yards : let's say your group is 3 bullets wide. Total width would be 3 x .357 = 1.071. Center to Center would be 1.071 - .357 = .714".

MOA at 15 yards is .16". So that group is a little over 4 MOA.

pics 45acp indoors

Top pic with the dime at 50 feet:

A dime is .705" in diameter. Looks like edge to edge on your group is about the width of the dime. So your group size is .705 - .452 = .25".

MOA at 50 feet is .174". You're closer than Borland, about 1.5 MOA, but still not sub-moa.

Second pic with the quarter at 50 feet isn't even close enough to bother calculating. If we're talking MOA, it's way out there.

MrBorland
December 11, 2012, 09:28 AM
LMAO!!!

Hopefully you guys that posted the pictures do realize that you're NO WHERE near sub-moa??

Certainly. And neither was Zins' target - you gonna enlighten him, too? :rolleyes:

At any rate, you've been too literal, IMO. Go back and read the OP's first post: 1" @ 25 yards (4 MOA) is used as his example of a ridiculous internet claim, so the "sub-MOA" in the thread's title is either an exaggeration for effect, or he doesn't understand "MOA".

A handgunner is doing very well to shoot 10 MOA from an unsupported position, yet many posters on this thread have shown that there are quite a few sub-10 MOA shooters out there, so one ought not be so quick to dismiss such claims.

45_auto
December 11, 2012, 09:43 AM
Certainly. And neither was Zins' target - you gonna enlighten him, too?

I have no trouble enlightening anyone who doesn't understand MOA. Just looked through the thread for anything from "Zin", I couldn't find anything. Give me the post number and I'll see what I can do.


At any rate, you've been too literal, IMO.

My post about "pics or it didn't happen" (#108) that you replied to with your pics was in reference to a shooter claiming sub-moa at 10 feet (#106). That would be about a .030" group.

Sub-moa is sub-moa. Perhaps you think close is good enough, but if someone tells me they're shooting sub-moa I'm pretty impressed and would like to see it. Hard to see how that's being too literal.

I agree that there are some great groups out there. Probably even a few sub-moa by pure luck! But I still haven't seen one.

Certaindeaf
December 11, 2012, 10:17 AM
I think the Moa is extinct!

45_auto
December 11, 2012, 11:04 AM
I think the Moa is extinct!

No, only the sub-moa is extinct. That's because they're so easy to shoot that anybody can do it on the internet! ;)

Ankeny
December 11, 2012, 11:28 AM
That's because they're so easy to shoot that anybody can do it on the internet! Like others here, I have been involved in the shooting sports for many years (over 30 years). I have some decent classifications (High Master, Grand Master) in several handgun shooting sports. I too find it much easier to shoot well with a keyboard than with a pistol.

I agree that there are some great groups out there. Probably even a few sub-moa by pure luck! But I still haven't seen one. I took a picture of this group because it's pretty decent even though the distance was ony 7 yards. It still isn't sub-moa, or is it?. http://rtconnect.net/~rankeny/four shots.jpg

MrBorland
December 11, 2012, 11:37 AM
Just looked through the thread for anything from "Zin", I couldn't find anything. Give me the post number and I'll see what I can do.

#103. Yes, please...see what you can do. :rolleyes: I'm sure Brian Zins will sleep better. :cool:

My post about "pics or it didn't happen" (#108) that you replied to with your pics was in reference to a shooter claiming sub-moa at 10 feet (#106). That would be about a .030" group.


Thanks for the clarification, but my "you've been too literal" reference included your earlier (#73) "it ain't sub-MOA" reply to a shooter who, like Pete D. and myself, made no such claim. If I thought the thread was to discuss literal sub-MOA handgun accuracy, I agree there wouldn't be much point joining the discussion.

Pete D.
December 11, 2012, 11:46 AM
Oops.

Pete D.
December 11, 2012, 12:04 PM
45 Auto: I well understand what minute of angle refers to.
If you will check my post with the pictures, you will note that the last words on the page recognize that neither of the groups is at a 1/4 MOA.
The point is that they are - if group size is important when shooting one handed - they are good "groups", though the second is a poor score. Whatever I did wrong, I did it five times in a row.
Even the quarter sized group, had the sights been adjusted properly - is a ten ring group. The dime sized group is a 49/50. Wish that I could do that every time that I shot.
Pete

Pete D.
December 11, 2012, 12:10 PM
Duplicate....sorry,

45_auto
December 11, 2012, 05:27 PM
#103. Yes, please...see what you can do.

No distance reference with the photos, but if those are .38 or .45 sized holes they appear to be about a 2" group. If they were fired at 200 yards or more, they could easily be sub-moa. :)

doc2rn
December 11, 2012, 08:31 PM
I am like most I have my on days and my off days. I have gone out with my tack drivers and if I dont get the results I want by the 2nd round, I switch from pistol to rifle. If I still dont get the groups I want I try again another day. I would agree with a previous post, there are $200 dollar tack drivers for the right individual and there are $10k Anshultz. Both will get the job done if we do our part.

Liberty1776
December 11, 2012, 10:24 PM
True Story - I once shot a 3-shot cloverleaf group at 25 yards with my S&W Model 1917. I have been "chasing" that group for almost 30 years now...;)

Pete D.
December 12, 2012, 12:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrborland
#103. Yes, please...see what you can do.
No distance reference with the photos, but if those are .38 or .45 sized holes they appear to be about a 2" group. If they were fired at 200 yards or more, they could easily be sub-moa.
Please tell me that is a joke. Please tell me that you really do know what that target represents, how it was fired, the distance, etc.
Brian Zins is the ten time winner of the national pistol championship held each year at Camp Perry, Ohio.

45_auto
December 12, 2012, 08:16 AM
It WAS a joke. See post #27 from a month or so ago.

This whole thread has been a joke from the OP's first two sentences.

I've only been in the gun community now for a couple years but one thing that has always perplexed me is people claiming that they can shoot groups that are extraordinarily small compared to what is seen in real life. It happens in every gun forum. Somebody will complain about how they're "only" shooting 1/2" groups at 50 yds with their rimfires, so they need to find what is wrong. Then another's handgun will shoot 1" offhand standing all day long at 25 yards. The best part is, this type of consistent shooting does not exist in reality.

If he's been shooting for a couple of years and can't be bothered to do a little research into "reality", I have no problem helping him (and anyone else who wants to play) along. Is a 30 second internet search too much too ask?

otasan56
December 12, 2012, 08:43 AM
okey dokie :cool:

Unless noted, all shot unsupported, with revolver groups shot double action:

25 yards, 5 rounds, stock 4" S&W 617 .22LR, 0.95":
http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp239/becke016/GunsTargets/SW617B-16Freestyle.jpg

10 yards, 3 rounds, DAO 4" 686, benched (bottom, 0.25") and unsupported (top, 0.26"):
http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp239/becke016/GunsTargets/May2012Postal686.jpg

10 yards, 3 rounds, Ruger MkIII, benched (bottom, 0.31") and unsupported (top, 0.23"):
http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp239/becke016/GunsTargets/May2012Postal.jpg

15 yards, 5 rounds, stock S&W K-38:
http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp239/becke016/GunsTargets/MiscellaneousPicsfrom08196.jpg
Great groups!

Pete D.
December 12, 2012, 08:53 AM
45 Auto: It WAS a joke. See post #27 from a month or so ago.
Got it. Thanks.
Pete

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