Jacket hardness vs solid copper


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KevinR
November 7, 2012, 10:53 PM
Has anybody ever checked or does anybody know if a solid copper bullet is the exact same hardness as a jacket on a lead bullet? I am thinking of going to solid copper in my 38 Spl+P but I was just wondering about pressures because of solid vs plated?:confused:

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Shadow 7D
November 7, 2012, 11:09 PM
the jacket is an alloy, not pure, even the solid bullets are usually an alloy
as for hardness, the jacketed on is softer due to the lead core

secondly, solid copper bullets most likely will be illegal as AP ammo.

OH, and plated is something COMPLETELY different

CZ57
November 7, 2012, 11:41 PM
Good question and I wish I had the precise answer. I would guess that the alloy on the solid copper bullet like the Barnes XPB is slightly softer so that it will reliably expand without the lead core to help drive it. Also, I notice that velocity is lower and pressure higher when loading the XPB: www.ramshot.com ;)

helotaxi
November 7, 2012, 11:52 PM
First, there is no restriction on AP rifle ammo. Barnes voluntarily stopped production of some of their banded solids based on potential legislation in one state.

Barnes actually uses pure copper in the X Bullets. Before they changed the design to include the banding on the bearing surface, they were notorious for copper fouling because of the purity of the copper. They are the only one that uses pure copper in their monolithic bullets.

Nosler and Hornady use gilding metal in their lead free bullets. Gilding metal is an alloy of copper and zinc (technically a type of brass) and is the same thing used to make bullet jackets. It is a little bit harder than pure copper but more importantly it doesn't gall like pure copper does and won't foul the bore nearly as badly.

Plated bullets are plated with pure copper. That includes the Speer Deep Curl, Gold Dot and UniCor bullets. The Speer bullets have a thicker layer of plating but they are still plated and it is still pure copper. No way to plate with an alloy.

Shadow 7D
November 8, 2012, 06:18 AM
solid copper in my 38 Spl+P
now tell me that the ATF says that's a rifle round

helotaxi
November 8, 2012, 08:30 AM
Doesn't meet the definition.

Federal law defines armor piercing ammo as:

"a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium"

There's a reason that the Barnes handgun bullets are pure copper and not gilding metal.

Shadow 7D
November 8, 2012, 02:56 PM
dude
READ
like really
your reading comprehension sucks,
he wants a SOLID COPPER handgun bullet
you pull some paragraph from who knows where??
that says AP is "brass, bronze, beryllium, copper, "
so, um, yeah I'm right, and please read, it gets pretty technical, the ATF has in the past considered 'exotic' bullets greater then 25% weight non lead to be AP, go look up the Olympic arms fiasco, they are the reason that cheap milsup 7.62x39 is no longer imported.

As for the Barnes
you can apply to the ATF and get an exception/determination that the bullet is 'Sporting' and NOT designed to pierce armor.

MErl
November 8, 2012, 03:17 PM
you added a comma there between Beryllium and Copper.

There is an alloy of those 2 metals, much like Brass and Bronze are alloys of copper and tin or zinc. beryllium copper is harder than raw copper.

brickeyee
November 8, 2012, 03:54 PM
beryllium copper is NOT the same AS copper.

It is MUCH harder.

helotaxi
November 9, 2012, 08:51 AM
dude
READ
like really
your reading comprehension sucks,
he wants a SOLID COPPER handgun bullet
you pull some paragraph from who knows where??The paragraph came from the applicable US code. Take your own advice and actually read. As the others have pointed out, beryllium copper is an alloy and is not just copper. US code does not address bullet made from just copper.

The reason that cheap milsurp 7.62x39 isn't available anymore is because of a pistol AR and the very loose reading of the paragraph after what I quoted on the part of the ATF. The milsurp ammo in question was jacketed, as the code makes the distinction, which solid copper bullets are not. They jacket of the milsurp was usually copper washed steel as well, not that that is germane to the issue at hand.

If your reading were correct, which as has been pointed out, it isn't, then this company would be openly defying the law:

http://www.midwayusa.com/find?sortby=1&itemsperpage=20&dimensionids=4294845436&newcategorydimensionid=10037

As would Cor Bon and anyone who loaded a Barnes copper handgun bullet into a case over powder. Copper bullets are not regulated.

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