Semi Auto with Semi..


PDA






Brian Williams
November 9, 2012, 07:59 AM
Would you buy a Semi Auto handgun that automatically dropped an empty mag?
and locked the slide back?

If you enjoyed reading about "Semi Auto with Semi.." here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
creeper1956
November 9, 2012, 08:34 AM
Ahhhhh... no. I can't see a situation where that'd be a good idea... but it's 4:30 in the morning and I don't know why I'm up either. :p

Why... are you pondering such a thing?

bannockburn
November 9, 2012, 08:38 AM
No, not really.

Brian Williams
November 9, 2012, 08:55 AM
I can't see a situation where that'd be a good idea...
In a heated combat situation with the mag empty and dropped with the slide locked back, insert full mag and release slide and you are ready to rock. Think M1 Garand en-bloc in a handgun.

1911Tuner
November 9, 2012, 08:58 AM
In a heated combat situation with the mag empty and dropped with the slide locked back, insert full mag and release slide and you are ready to rock. Think M1 Garand en-bloc in a handgun.

The drawback that I see is that the defender may not realize that the gun has run dry and ejected the clip/magazine. With the M1, it was out the top...in your face. With a pistol, it would be out the bottom and out of your line of sight. I think I'd prefer to stick to the habit of reloading before the gun runs dry if and when the opportunity presents itself.

1911 guy
November 9, 2012, 09:08 AM
Would the automatic release interfere with the ability to eject the magazine at will?

Would the automatic slide release interfere with the ability to lock it to the rear manually?

I'm thinking administrative drills and immediate action drills here.

creeper1956
November 9, 2012, 09:15 AM
In a heated combat situation...
I've shot plenty of pistol matches, but in truth, my mindset was more about cutting times and reducing misses. I've never been in a (real) heated combat situation with a handgun... and the idea of not being in control of a guns functions causes my teeth to grind involuntarily. :what:

56hawk
November 9, 2012, 09:27 AM
I think it would be pretty cool. Especially if it also dropped the slide when a new magazine was inserted, like the Mauser HSc.

tarosean
November 9, 2012, 09:33 AM
I had a Star that automatically dropped magazines full or empty it didn't matter...

Oh wait, that's not what you meant... :)

psyopspec
November 9, 2012, 09:58 AM
I would be interested in trying a gun like that, perhaps through a season of IDPA or one of the host of gun schools.

The concerns I have off the top of my head: Even though it's slower, taking things step by step ensures that those steps get done (Adjust grip, drop mag, readjust, insert, release slide). In a dark alley, I would hate to go to insert a new magazine into an auto that was supposed to automatically drop the empty, only to find the drop hadn't occurred. Inventing new malfunction drills in that situation would be... not fun.

Drail
November 9, 2012, 11:01 AM
Yeah, that would be really cool - until it malfunctioned. All of my 1911s have had the slide stop modified so that the slide stop will never lock the slide unless you put your thumb under it and manually lock it open. Over the years I have seen too many times where a gun would lock open in the middle of a magazine in a match Ooops. No thanks. It IS possible to train yourself to never shoot the gun empty (it takes dedicated effort but it can be done). I also think having a gun that can auto eject a magazine whenever it wants is a very bad idea. But then I can't stand a car or truck with an automatic transmission either. I guess I must be a control freak.

MTMilitiaman
November 9, 2012, 11:10 AM
No.

I don't see how you'd do it reliably and even if you could, it seems like a good way to lose mags. Magazines can get expensive at $25 to $50 a peice. Sure the speed reloads without retention look flashy, but most of us are better off practicing tactical reloads with retention. And even when I want to do a speed reload without retention, it's not dropping the magazine that is a problem, it's getting a new magazine up and in place. Give me a pistol that never runs out of ammo...

Ehtereon11B
November 9, 2012, 11:59 AM
The M1 Garand automatically popped out the clip when it was done. Turns out the Nazis and Japanese got used to hearing that pin and took the opprotunity to pick off the guy on empty. No thanks, I can drop my own mag.

Hondo 60
November 9, 2012, 12:15 PM
I would NOT prefer it to drop the mag automatically.

I think it would be good for faster reloading for competition events or defensive situations.

But think of the dirt that would get inside the mag when plinking or non-competition shooting.

Skribs
November 9, 2012, 12:20 PM
I'm with most of the others in this thread. I personally like when stuff is done automatically for me. All my pistols have no manual safety, for example. Still, I would want to be in control of the magazine release.

Double Naught Spy
November 9, 2012, 02:59 PM
The drawback that I see is that the defender may not realize that the gun has run dry and ejected the clip/magazine.

I can see this going either way. I have watched lots of shooters not realize their guns were locked back on empty and tried to keep firing as well.

Yeah, that would be really cool - until it malfunctioned.

Like not locking back on empty? It is the same sort of feature in that regard.

My problem with it is any grip on the gun that would interfere with the drop. Also, it isn't likely to drop free (unless spring loaded) when sideways or inverted. Regular mags don't either, of course.

Like psyopspec said, it might be fun to play with. Might be cool. Might be really terrible.

W.E.G.
November 9, 2012, 03:01 PM
Absolutely not.

45_auto
November 9, 2012, 03:19 PM
I can see this going either way. I have watched lots of shooters not realize their guns were locked back on empty and tried to keep firing as well.

Those same shooters would also try to keep firing with the gun locked back and the mag automatically dropped.

If you're doing your mag changes correctly, the auto-drop won't save you any time. Your strong hand should be pressing the mag release while your off-hand is going for the new mag. I've never seen anyone doing it correctly who had to wait for a mag to drop, they're always long gone before you can get the fresh one off your belt and up to the gun.

In my opinion, an automatic mag drop would be more aggravating than a magazine safety, and I won't have a gun with one of those.

barnbwt
November 9, 2012, 09:36 PM
I think it would be pretty cool. Especially if it also dropped the slide when a new magazine was inserted, like the Mauser HSc.

Honestly, if you combined that with a SA/DA trigger and trigger or grip safety, you've got about the simplest manual of arms imaginable. From that perspective, it's a very cool idea:

-No manual safety/decocker
-No manual slide lever/release
-No external hammer
-Manual ammunition replenishment
-Manual trigger

Don't get much simpler than that (though it's not everyone's cup of tea). Also makes you think twice about all the controls on modern pistols these days; they're getting to be like Xbox controllers. Maybe KISS is a better idea :scrutiny:

I'm glad the OP asked this in both the rifle and pistol forums. It's an okay idea maybe for a 5-8 round rifle mag, but basically untenable for anything bigger than that. Which makes it uniquely suited to pistols. Properly maintained and designed, there's no reason it wouldn't be as reliable as an extractor (it's a spring, a catch, and a pivot for Pete's sake :rolleyes:)

The real question is whether people want their mags on the ground that much. If you can find a way to make them cheaply, disposable, or use someone else's cheap mags, the idea has much better potential.

TCB

Fishslayer
November 10, 2012, 12:31 AM
In a heated combat situation with the mag empty and dropped with the slide locked back, insert full mag and release slide and you are ready to rock. Think M1 Garand en-bloc in a handgun.

Think magazine bouncing off of concrete or going into the dirt every time it goes empty...

I've seen magazines bounce so far in front of the line wa almost had to call cease fire so the guy could go get it. :D

I would say no to auto eject.

Onward Allusion
November 10, 2012, 12:47 AM
Er, no. One more feature to go wrong in a stressful situation. At the range, it can mean damaged mags.

chris in va
November 10, 2012, 01:20 AM
The PING with the garand is a myth.

1911 guy
November 10, 2012, 02:33 AM
Agreed. Kinda like the once-upon-a-time training police officers recieved to not drop their empty brass (revolvers) because the sound of brass hiting the pavement could give away their location... After they'd just shot six times. If you can hear the "ping" after listening to eight rounds of .30 cal without ear pro, you've got better hearing than Clark Kent.

smalls
November 10, 2012, 02:41 AM
I'm thinking it would be difficult to adjust to. Lots if un-training to do to use it as a defense gun.

JohnKSa
November 10, 2012, 03:00 AM
That would be a useful feature, but only if the design provided someway to temporarily disable the function if desired.

Walkalong
November 10, 2012, 12:31 PM
Sounds like something else that could break, and I don't see the need.

mesinge2
November 10, 2012, 12:53 PM
I could see it as a very useful design for a top loading pistol like a Broomhandle Mauser, but maybe with some modernized features.

Jaymo
November 10, 2012, 01:12 PM
I used to have a Chicom Tokarev that would release the slide as soon as you slammed the full mag home.

psyopspec
November 10, 2012, 02:05 PM
I must be hard on my mags. They hit the ground more than they get gently lowered into my hand, at least with any guns serving in a competition or defense role.

I've yet to make a magazine unserviceable for any of these guns, and that's after dropping them in dirt, mud, water, concrete, etc. Brands: Various Glocks, HK P2000, Beretta 92fs, 1911s, and various AR mags. Typically they get a shake out and then get used again. At worst, a quick wipe down at the range before the next string of fire, then a cleaning at home.

If they were as fragile as many posters make it sound, I wouldn't be relying on that gun or weapons system for any serious purposes.

Double Naught Spy
November 10, 2012, 02:14 PM
Those same shooters would also try to keep firing with the gun locked back and the mag automatically dropped.

Sure, and that was the point I was making.

If you're doing your mag changes correctly, the auto-drop won't save you any time.

Sure, but not everyone is so skilled. Hell, not everyone can remember to take off their safety, LOL.

It could be a dud innovation. It could be really helpful. Until working with it, the validity of the concept may not be readily apparent. Some here think it would be a dud and they may be right. However, like slides that lock back on empty or not, some folks like and some don't.

If you enjoyed reading about "Semi Auto with Semi.." here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!