Semi-Auto with a Auto Mag release


PDA






Brian Williams
November 9, 2012, 07:59 AM
Would you buy a Semi Auto with an automatic empty mag release similar to the ejecting en-bloc like an M1 Garand?
Would you also have a slide release built in to the full/partially full magazine?

If you enjoyed reading about "Semi-Auto with a Auto Mag release" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
HDCamel
November 9, 2012, 08:30 AM
Only if it makes a ping noise.

JustinJ
November 9, 2012, 08:39 AM
Might have some good application in competition. In the real world, i'm skeptical. It seems a disadvantage to have an enemy know when one is out of ammo.

briansmithwins
November 9, 2012, 11:03 AM
It's a interesting idea and seems feasible to implement. You'd probably want to use a disposable mag as reload with retention wouldn't be possible with a auto-ejecting magazine.

You would need a manual mag release as well for unloading.

BSW

benEzra
November 9, 2012, 11:52 AM
Not me, because I only want to eject the empty mag into the mud/dirt/concrete when I want/need to, not every time.

beatledog7
November 9, 2012, 12:07 PM
No thanks. I wouldn't want the cylinder of my revolver to flop open by itself when I fire the last round, or my truck to go into Park by itself when I stop at a light. I'd have a manual tranny if it were available.

IMHO, we allow way too many things in life to happen without our direct intervention. It makes us lazy, complacent, and vapid.

DeMilled
November 9, 2012, 12:10 PM
I wouldn't like either feature on my rifle.

Justin
November 9, 2012, 01:12 PM
Might have some good application in competition.

Unlikely. In practical shooting competitions, it's rare to shoot a gun completely empty. (Well, except for IDPA.)

I wouldn't be completely opposed to a self-unloading rifle, though I'm not sure if there would be a truly clear advantage to it. Might be interesting to play with.

Acera
November 9, 2012, 01:15 PM
No.

briansmithwins
November 9, 2012, 04:37 PM
Well, in a fight, having the mag fall out of your rifle is a pretty go sign that you need to reload. It's a better indicator than the gun just stopping working.

Another idea might be to have a mechanical flag that pops up and blocks the sights when you need to reload. Could be combined with the mag that drops free when empty.

BSW

barnbwt
November 9, 2012, 08:20 PM
Might have some good application in competition. In the real world, i'm skeptical. It seems a disadvantage to have an enemy know when one is out of ammo.

I may be full of it, but I thought German POWs reported they had no clue when Garands pinged their clips out. I mean, they were firing 8mm Mausers, after all, and being shot at with 30-06's; there's no way they heard anything :)

What the OP is describing is like a disposable en-bloc or Mannlicher clip, which only work well when it's dirt cheap to produce them. Components being expensive as they are, most shooters would cringe at another necessary cost (hence the howls of refusal in this thread :D). I personally think a reliable plastic clip would be sweet for folks shooting factory ammo, seeing as it already comes in little plastic holders anyway. Especially hi-cap .22LR, which is a chore to load. Save your time/money on all those mags, and just buy some loaded strippers on the way to the range. Dispose of after use :cool:

The only way this concept has been pulled off in the past is with a cheap single-piece, stamped metal clip. Unfortunately, magazine designs require at least three parts to be removable, independent magazines. And that costs money.

http://i1159.photobucket.com/albums/p630/barnbwt/PB050399.jpg

Also, unlike tiny en-bloc and Mannlicher clips, modern magazines are large enough to be a tripping hazard in tight quarters. I'm not even a fan of manual drop-free systems for this reason. I'll never run a circuit with my Steyr M95 while it's pooping 6$ clips under my heels every five shots ;)

Still, a good idea, and thinking outside the box is always encouraged by me. There was a time when "minimal controls" were in vogue so soldiers could be more easily trained. My Czech CZ52 and VZ58 have no slide/bolt release--you're meant to pull the handle/slide back to free it after reloading--very simple. Also slow. We've come to realize humans are good at doing multiple things at once with the right training, and the use of finger/thumb slide/mag releases is a reflection of that.

I had an idea back in the day for a top-mounted magazine a-la PS90 that would kick itself out forward once empty so the shooter could at least see where it landed and avoid it. Such force would probably destroy even a metal mag body with time, though. I still thought it was better ergos than reaching under your armpit to load a bullpup, though.

TCB

Ian
November 9, 2012, 08:50 PM
I would also not be interested.

Something that might have more appeal would be a mechanism that automatically closes the bolt and chambers a round when a full magazine is loaded into the gun. The British EM-2 did this, and I'm sure there are a few other examples of it as well.

Edit: Heh, on second reading, it appears that was your second question.

fanchisimo
November 10, 2012, 12:50 AM
The only way I would do this would be to have some way to automatically retract it mounted to my belt or something. As this would probably be cumbersome, I agree with everyone else that it probably wouldn't be that great as it's expensive.

sawdeanz
November 10, 2012, 01:46 AM
I mean in a combat situation I think it would be a tactical advantage, and I have also had similar "what if" thoughts, however many enthusiasts would balk because it would be dinging up their mags (though i'm sure all of them would agree that in a life threatening situation their empty mags are the last thing on their mind). As for advantages in reload times i'm not sure how much advantage it would give since free fall mags and ergonomic releases make emptying an empty almost instantaneous already.

JohnKSa
November 10, 2012, 01:58 AM
Would you buy a Semi Auto with an automatic empty mag release similar to the ejecting en-bloc like an M1 Garand?
Would you also have a slide release built in to the full/partially full magazine?Yes, but only if there were a method to easily disable these functions. Maybe an unobtrusive lever or perhaps a screw that could be turned one direction to enable the functions but turned another way to disable them.

Shadow 7D
November 10, 2012, 02:51 AM
there was something similar tried in the Czech Little Tom, were the new magazine pushed the empty out the top/ejection port.

mljdeckard
November 10, 2012, 03:39 AM
I would entertain the idea, at least on a trial basis.

Odd Job
November 10, 2012, 05:11 AM
You could take it one step further and have a tube-fed revolving carbine. Instead of feeding individual cartridges, you have a tube with several loaded cylinders. Cylinders are loaded on the left and discarded on the right. That would be one heavy carbine though! It's like a drilling except two tubes are for cylinders hehe

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g154/Odd_Job/Untitled-1f.jpg

JustinJ
November 10, 2012, 09:53 AM
I mean in a combat situation I think it would be a tactical advantage, and I have also had similar "what if" thoughts, however many enthusiasts would balk because it would be dinging up their mags

I've heard that the "ping" of the Garand on firing the last round was a liability as it told the enemy you were out of bullets. Supposedly some soldiers did take advantage of this by simulating the ping to trick the enemy into charging when the gun was fully loaded.

allaroundhunter
November 10, 2012, 09:56 AM
Would you buy a Semi Auto with an automatic empty mag release similar to the ejecting en-bloc like an M1 Garand?
Would you also have a slide release built in to the full/partially full magazine?

Yes to the first part, on the same conditions that JohnKSa described.

And to the second part, well, I already have an M&P9 ;)

HorseSoldier
November 11, 2012, 03:08 AM
And to the second part, well, I already have an M&P9

Yeah -- I used to have a USP9 that did that, too. Except it did it about 90% of the time, with just enough room for doubt that you still had to go for the slide release if running it at speed.

Dr.Rob
November 11, 2012, 04:01 AM
The enbloc doesn't have gravity working against it.

In a mechanical 'failure' it wouldn't be fun to have your mag suddenly eject after the second round.

You'd have to sort that before making it a possibilty.

Brian Williams
November 11, 2012, 04:48 AM
In a mechanical 'failure' it wouldn't be fun to have your mag suddenly eject after the second round.You mean you have never completely seated a mag and had it feed the second round and then drop out any way? Had it happen in both my Glock 19 and a Colt Woodsman.

This could have a cut off similar to the 1903 rifle that allowed single cartridge feeding while keeping the magwell full.

Dr.Rob
November 11, 2012, 05:12 AM
No I've had a mag drop when I failed to seat it fully and it stripped off the first round.

I'm saying with a 'positive ejection mechanism' that works with a detachable box magazine, it might be possible to have a malfuction that ejects a loaded mag when there's no other issue. UNLESS the 'ejection mechanism' is inside the magazine -- meaning only operable by the follower.. in which case that complicates the magazine build in that the follower MUST activate the auto eject.

I've had a number of 'good' magazines in pistols fail to operate the bolt hold open... not sure I've had that happen in an AR or other similar semi auto rifle, but totally possible.

barnbwt
November 11, 2012, 11:37 AM
The enbloc doesn't have gravity working against it.

In a mechanical 'failure' it wouldn't be fun to have your mag suddenly eject after the second round.


I swear I've heard numerous Garand owners attempting to fix a problem that causes the enbloc/rounds to eject prematurely

Yup--Premature Clip Ejection (http://m14forum.com/steel-wood/18345-premature-garand-clip-ejection.html)

No mechanical system works if it isn't maintained. I don't see how a mag-release would be any less prone to failure than a hold-open catch. Now, whether or not you'd like such a feature--that's debateable ;)

The biggest problem with positive mag ejection in a rifle platform would be the strong forces needed to fling a full-size 30+ round mag out assertively. A light enbloc with a handful of rounds, no big deal. A break-open shotgun kicking it's shells back--again, no big deal. But flinging a Fal brick out the bottom would be quite violent (and might hurt your toe, too :p)

TCB

MachIVshooter
November 11, 2012, 02:02 PM
Yes, but only if there were a method to easily disable these functions. Maybe an unobtrusive lever or perhaps a screw that could be turned one direction to enable the functions but turned another way to disable them.

This.

It could be a useful feature, but there is limited application. Empty magazines can usually handle falling the 4-1/2 feet or less from shouldered position without damage, but I don't drop my magazines on the ground for the most part just because they will ineviteably collect dirt and debris that can affect reliability.

I would spend a little more for this feature on, say, an AR, but only if it was selectable, and only if it proved to work well.

-v-
November 12, 2012, 12:33 AM
No on the self ejecting mags. I like the option to either let them fall and speed reload, or reload with empty mag retention. As for automatic bolt close on inserting a loaded magazine, I do approve of that, with the caveat that there is still a manual bolt-release lever.

A CZ40b I had would auto-close on every loaded mag when it was clean. After it got some carbon and crud in it, not as much. I thought it was a really handy malfunction.

Deus Machina
November 12, 2012, 05:00 PM
I like the idea in principle, but I very much doubt the associated issues would work as well in practice. I've tripped over nothing, let alone falling magazines in a firefight.

I've heard that the "ping" of the Garand on firing the last round was a liability as it told the enemy you were out of bullets. Supposedly some soldiers did take advantage of this by simulating the ping to trick the enemy into charging when the gun was fully loaded.

If an enemy soldier could hear the ping after eight rounds of .30-06, well, maybe the whole Ubermensch idea had something to it. :)

If you enjoyed reading about "Semi-Auto with a Auto Mag release" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!