Win 231 and 230 FMJ


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Rinspeed
November 9, 2012, 04:07 PM
I am going to start using 231 tomorrow for the first time for .45 rounds. What are some loads that you are using. I was thinking of using around 5.4 and maybe run some at 5.6. Does this sound like a good starting point.

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Walkalong
November 9, 2012, 04:11 PM
5.0 Grs for a nice range load and 5.5 for close to full power. Start at 5.2 Grs instead of 5.4. Work up.

Hangingrock
November 9, 2012, 06:07 PM
I’ve used 5.5/5.6 grains of W231 for decades with 230Gr-200Gr weight range jacketed or cast bullets.

tightgroup tiger
November 9, 2012, 06:28 PM
Iíve used 5.5/5.6 grains of W231 for decades with 230Gr-200Gr weight range jacketed or cast bullets.

It's funny that Hodgen's web site data calls for 5.3 grs of 231 as max load for lead and jacketed both for a 230gr bullet. Big deal.

Now I know that means about as much to you as it does to me but we don't know what kind of pistol the op is loading for.

By the way are you getting any smoke up there. If you live in Hangingrock, I live about an hour south of you.

bds
November 9, 2012, 08:21 PM
Iíve used 5.5/5.6 grains of W231 for decades with 230Gr-200Gr weight range jacketed or cast bullets.
It's funny that Hodgen's web site data calls for 5.3 grs of 231 as max load for lead and jacketed both for a 230gr bullet.
That may be due to using Winchester load data older than 2006 - http://www.hodgdon.com/history.html
In March 2006, Hodgdon Powder Company and Winchesterģ Ammunition announced that Winchesterģ branded reloading powders would be licensed to Hodgdon.
Since 2006, Winchester load data changed and for powders like W231, matched the load data for HP-38, which is the same W231 licensed to Hodgdon to be sold as HP-38.

Here's 1999 Winchester load data for 45ACP and W231

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=174476&stc=1&d=1352511551


Here's 2006 Winchester load data for 45ACP and W231

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=174473&stc=1&d=1352510410


Here's 2006 Hodgdon load data for 45ACP and HP-38

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=174474&stc=1&d=1352510421


Current Hodgdon load data - http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp
185 gr Hornady JSWC W231/HP-38 OAL 1.135" Start 5.0 gr (762 fps) 12,000 CUP - Max 5.9 gr (906 fps) 15,800 CUP

200 gr CAST LSWC W231/HP-38 OAL 1.225" Start 4.4 gr (771 fps) 11,000 CUP - Max 5.6 gr (914 fps) 16,900 CUP

200 gr Speer JHP W231/HP-38 OAL 1.155" Start 5.2 gr (794 fps) 12,700 CUP - Max 5.9 gr (906 fps) 16,700 CUP

230 gr Hornady FMJ FP W231/HP-38 OAL 1.200" Start 4.2 gr (751 fps) 13,800 CUP - Max 5.3 gr (832 fps) 16,800 CUP

230 gr LRN W231/HP-38 OAL 1.200" Start 4.3 gr (699 fps) 12,200 CUP - Max 5.3 gr (834 gr) 16,900 CUP

ImjinScout
November 9, 2012, 10:26 PM
I load a lot of .45 ACP and when working up my loads using the Hodgon data it wasn't working very well. I think I started at 4.6 and did loads in .2 gr increments. I finally ended up at 5.3/5.4grs of HP-38 and this was the most accurate and reliable in my guns, S&W 4566TSW and a Springfield Champion Operator.

I was a little concerned at first that I was a max load per the hodgon site but the loads were working fine. So my standard load is 1.250 COL with 5.3/5.4grs of HP-38 with a crimp diameter of .470 to .472. I use this for 230gr RN and also 200gr SWC. But as always work up each load for your guns and be safe.

edfardos
November 9, 2012, 10:53 PM
I went through this today!

230grain plated bullet
HP38/W231
5.0 735fps
5.2 755fps
5.4 785fps

I'll probably bump to 5.6, as hornady's max is listed at 5.7 with coal of 1.230. Sammi max is 20K, why does hodgdon max at 16K? There are quite a few threads on this discrepancy.

also, how do you work up? What do you look for? Large pistol primers show no pressure signs in my 44mag, and that's 40K!

thanks for the history lesson bds - great stuff.


edfardos

Hangingrock
November 9, 2012, 11:20 PM
Referencing the Lyman 49th Ed Reloading Handbook the charge weight of 5.5/5.6 grains is within the parameter charge weights specified for Jacketed & Cast bullets for the bullet weight range of 200-230 grains. As previously stated Iíve used the previously mentioned charge weight range for decades with no detrimental/adverse issues.

Rinspeed
November 9, 2012, 11:31 PM
Thanks a bunch bds, I'm glad I asked because my Speer #12 lists 5.6 for 789 and 6.2 for 858. That's a pretty big discrepancy. I guess I'll start at 5.0 and work up slightly. Most wil be shot in a 5" 1911 or my 4.4" Sig 220. A Chrony is very much on my list before spring rolls around.

ArchAngelCD
November 10, 2012, 12:14 AM
It's funny that Hodgen's web site data calls for 5.3 grs of 231 as max load for lead and jacketed both for a 230gr bullet.
You will also notice the COAL that goes along with that load data is 1.200". I can't see seating a FMJ bullet that deep into the case. I usually use a COAL of between 1.250" and 1.270" depending upon the bullet with a charge of 5.5gr W231. I would not start there but you probably will end up there. Like said above, start @ between 5.0gr and 5.2gr and work up.

I charge 5.5gr W231 under a 200gr SWC, 230gr LRN or 230gr FMJ bullet.

bds
November 10, 2012, 01:26 AM
also notice the COAL
+1. Deeper you seat the bullet, higher the chamber pressure. If I am using significantly shorter OAL than published, I may decrease the max charge by .2-.3 gr.

how do you work up? What do you look for?
Once you determine the Max OAL (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=506678) and working OAL that works with your pistol/barrel/magazine (reliably feed/chamber when slide is manually released), I will reference published load data from powder manufacturers and Lyman #49.

If my working OAL is comparable or longer than published OAL, I will go ahead and use the published load data.

I used to load 10 rounds of each .1 gr increments weighed on Ohaus 10-10 scale from start-to-max charge but now I will initially load 10 rounds of each .2-.3 gr increments my Pro Auto Disk holes will drop to get me in the "ballpark" then will load 10 rounds of .1 gr increments.

I will initially look for powder charge that will reliably cycle the slide and properly extract/eject the spent cases. I usually shoot at indoor ranges and can't setup a chrono so I will use the accuracy trends instead of lower SD numbers. I will test accuracy at 10-15 yards off sand bags and look at accuracy trends as the powder charge approaches near max/max charge.

Usually with W231/HP-38 and faster burning powder, reliable slide cycling and accuracy can be obtained at mid-range load data and plateau at high-to-near max load data. With slower burning powders, optimal accuracy may not be achieved until high-to-near max load data. YMMV

blarby
November 10, 2012, 02:11 AM
BDS knows far more than me.

I've used w231 behind 200gr SWCs at 5.0 grs, with the same dimensions he does.

My wifes 45 chamber and BDS's must have been cut from the same reamer, I swear.


For 230 FMJ, and my 229gr LRN FMJ Analogue, I use 5.2grs, at 1.260 length.

In all honesty, because of my horrible tools, it floats between 1.259 and 1.261, but with that shape, its all gravy.

Walkies : Can you give this fella the picture of your perfect "plunk test" comparison to a poor one ?

CZ57
November 10, 2012, 02:48 AM
Okay, now I'll say it. You guys that have been using W231, like I did and still have it, really need to try Ramshot ZIP. Very similar in burn rate but burns cleaner and yields a good deal better performance with all .45 ACP bullet weights, particularly the 230 gr. bullets. Look at the data that bds posted and then go to www.ramshot.com and look at the data for ZIP. ;)

Walkalong
November 10, 2012, 09:04 AM
Can you give this fella the picture of your perfect "plunk test" comparison to a poor one ?
Here is the thread for the plunk test.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=506678

Okay, now I'll say it. You say it all the time, post after post after post recommending Ramshot. ;)

Steve C
November 10, 2012, 03:00 PM
A 5.5gr load of W231 works very well with both 230gr FMJ and 200gr LSWC in the .45 acp. Here is a screen clip of chrono results with this load.

http://i1171.photobucket.com/albums/r552/s_o_cikkubs/GS/45ACPW231.jpg

mxjunky78
November 11, 2012, 01:00 AM
+1 for 5.0gr under a 230fmj. Very accurate and moderate recoil out of my 1911.

CZ57
November 11, 2012, 04:08 AM
You say it all the time, post after post after post recommending Ramshot.

Well, like I told you in the PM, at least it's not the same old worn out recommendations for 231 and Unique! ;)

Rinspeed
November 11, 2012, 08:31 AM
The only powders I use are 231, Unique and H110.

Walkalong
November 11, 2012, 11:02 AM
W-231 and Unique are extremely popular, have been for a long time, and for good reason. People will continue to recommend them, new reloaders will try them, like them, and use them.

Ramshot powders are certainly worth trying, as they are usually a bit cheaper, and they have some good offerings.

I have tried Zip, Silhouette, True Blue, and Tac. All can be useful powders. Not many die hard W-231 or Unique users are apt to switch IMO, as most of us tend to stick with something when it works for us.

Zip can be very accurate in .45 ACP, and if you cannot get W-231/HP-38, I believe you would be happy with Zip. If you want to push the 9MM, and don't mind ignoring Ramshots tame data, Silhouette is good stuff. Should be useful in the .40, but I haven't tried it. True Blue is a fine round powder that meters superbly (About like AA #2 for that), and is less position sensitive than many handgun powders. (As is AA #2) Tac is good in .223 and .222 Mag (Yea, not many of us have those), and I like it in the .35 Remington, although data is scarce. If you like H335, you will probably like Tac.

My local shops and the powder guy who come to the gun shows do not carry Ramshot, so for me it is an order only proposition. That hurts their business I am sure.

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