S&W M&P vs GLOCK


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WinThePennant
November 10, 2012, 12:25 PM
Right now, my main preference is for GLOCK pistols. Love my Glocks.

But, Smith & Wesson is really making a case for dethroning Glock's King of the Hill status.

They are making guns for LEOs, military, AND civilians. Glock seems to care less about the civilian market. No single stack 9mm.

S&W. They make a single stack 9mm. They make a full-size .22LR for the M&P. They make a variety of choices (safety, no safety, etc.).

And, by all rights, the M&P is now equal to the Glock in reliability. And, they are an American company making a great product -- HERE, in America.

Also, throw in the fact that they make great rifles, too! The M&P rifles, by all measures, run great. And, they make them available in a variety of options and price points, too!

Any reason why S&W won't be the KING gun maker in the years to come?

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TCBPATRIOT
November 10, 2012, 12:49 PM
I had 3 Glocks at one time. I sold 2 of them to finance my XDm. I was
wcently bitten by the M&P bug when I shot my friends gun. I was impressed by ergonomics and trigger.

psyopspec
November 10, 2012, 12:59 PM
They are making guns for LEOs, military, AND civilians. Glock seems to care less about the civilian market. No single stack 9mm.

I'm not aware of any military units that have adopted the M&P. However, don't let that stop you if you find you prefer that line of pistols. Also, no rules saying you can't own both. :)

As far as dethroning Glock by taking over more market share, I don't see it happening anytime soon.

Sam1911
November 10, 2012, 01:08 PM
And, by all rights, the M&P is now equal to the Glock in reliability.I sincerely WISH that was the case. Unfortunately it really isn't. Not yet.

As I posted elsewhere before:

I would like to say the M&Ps are absolutely fantastic. I shot my best classifer score ever with an M&P I'd just borrowed from a pal. They're very nice to shoot.

Unfortunately, the collection of recurring problems MANY of my upper-level competitor friends have experienced with them has driven quite a few of them away from them.

There's a common failure to extract issue. There are workarounds like aftermarket extractors and stronger springs, but maddeningly, that does not always solve the problem -- or solves it for a few days, weeks, or months only to have it inexplicably return.

There's also a light primer strikes problem which affects some guns. Again, stronger springs, polish this, polish that...and it might get better for a while.

I've got one pal who's bought and sold five M&Ps and is now sworn off the platform "forever" ...again.

I know five or six Expert/Master/"A" type shooters who've experienced these issues and ended up returning guns to S&W multiple times, dropping in better parts, and ditching the platform anyway.

This is more hard to take in that the group I shoot with is very local to (and shoots regularly with) one of the main M&P gunsmiths (Burwell), so if they can't keep the gun running, that's telling. In fact, I worked the PA States IDPA match at Dan Burwell's home club earlier this month, and this was a returning topic of conversation -- punctuated by the fact that several M&P pistols had these familiar malfunctions during the match!

I really do like those guns, but I'm not buying one. Don't know what it will take for S&W to get them ALL to work right in the long-term, but they've had plenty of time and they aren't there yet.

holdencm9
November 10, 2012, 01:19 PM
I sincerely WISH that was the case. Unfortunately it really isn't. Not yet.

Eek! Sam, that is the first I had heard of recurring problems. I know every manufacturer puts out a lemon on occasion of course. Do you happen to know if it was more prevalent with certain cartridge/size model? I was thinking of getting an M&P 9c for carry. Really loved shooting the rental.

Maybe I should wait until they roll out the Fourth Generation M&P, just to be safe. :)

tarosean
November 10, 2012, 01:24 PM
Also, throw in the fact that they make great rifles, too!

Hmmmmm... You do realize they make these guns with cylinders that revolve too.. What are they called again? :)


Glock seems to care less about the civilian market. No single stack 9mm.


I do agree with this though...


and Sam I think Gen4's issues are pretty well documented...

I own a m&p45c however, I am not enamored by it...

Sam1911
November 10, 2012, 01:27 PM
Do you happen to know if it was more prevalent with certain cartridge/size model? For what it may be worth, most of the guns I've heard of or seen with this issue were 9mm Pros.

VoodooSan
November 10, 2012, 01:54 PM
I don't really get in to Glock vs. other gun debates. I own a G30SF 3rd gen that I love. Im not a fanboy tho. But I also like HK a lot and the M&P line. What I think is happening is Glock has been around a while. M&P is starting to prove itself more and more and gain a bigger following.




VoodooSan

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Old Dog
November 10, 2012, 02:15 PM
Sam1911, interesting how you quote one of your previous posts on the M&P and then, several posts later, note that the problems seem to occur mainly with the Pro line.

We have several large LE agencies in my state (mine is one) that issue the M&P and to my knowledge, we're not seeing these problems, at least on the (allegedly) widespread basis that you claim. We have some folks that shoot a lot (perhaps not as much as some "upper-level competitor friends") but the problems are fairly minimal and the factory support has been excellent. Any fixes required are all relatively simple.

The M&P is what it is, a competitively priced, exceptionally ergonomic, reliable, easy to shoot and reasonably accurate pistol. Some would argue the platform is far more ergonomic that the Glocks; I'd argue that the trigger is better and they're more accurate.

Sam1911
November 10, 2012, 02:51 PM
Hey, I don't even own one. I don't say you will have a problem, or that a police force issuing these guns would ever shoot them enough to notice this sort of issue.

I do know one high-level competitor who is also a NJSP officer who quit his Glocks for a while to run all M&Ps, but then went back after a year or so citing issues he found too frustrating to continue to fight. But that's just one guy. Each of the guys I've shot with who've had these problems are just one guy experiencing issues. But as I know more than a few of these "just one guys" who've run into trouble when operating these guns in the manner that I would use them, that's enough to steer me toward other very good similar platforms.

I won't tell you what you should do, though. Just sharing some observations.

The M&P is what it is, a competitively priced, exceptionally ergonomic, reliable, easy to shoot and reasonably accurate pistol. Some would argue the platform is far more ergonomic that the Glocks; I'd argue that the trigger is better and they're more accurate.You are exactly right on most counts. They are very ergonomic, they are easy to shoot, and they are accurate. Whether they are "MORE" accurate than a Glock, generally speaking, I wouldn't venture to say.

The two known reliability problems are deal killers for me because competitions are often won and lost on the basis of fractions of a second, so clearing even one failure to extract, or running into a few light-strike "Tap-Rack-Bangs" can actually ruin your whole day when your best competitor doesn't have to clear the same malfunctions. In "real life" that's probably not such a big deal.

BILLG
November 10, 2012, 02:53 PM
Sam could you give us a few names?

guyfromohio
November 10, 2012, 02:57 PM
Potaaaaatos........potahhhhhtos.

Sam1911
November 10, 2012, 02:59 PM
A few names of what?

If you want me to post the names of individual competitors I shoot with ... I have to say I'm really not comfortable doing that. There's not much privacy in the world these days, but I'm not going to "out" my shooting buddies by name.

It doesn't really inform the discussion anyway, unless you were planning to call them up and ask if they really did buy multiple M&Ps! :)

Inebriated
November 10, 2012, 03:23 PM
So this is essentially S&W vs. Glock, not M&P vs. Glock?

Right now, my main preference is for GLOCK pistols. Love my Glocks.

But, Smith & Wesson is really making a case for dethroning Glock's King of the Hill status.

They are making guns for LEOs, military, AND civilians. Glock seems to care less about the civilian market. No single stack 9mm.

S&W. They make a single stack 9mm. They make a full-size .22LR for the M&P. They make a variety of choices (safety, no safety, etc.).

And, by all rights, the M&P is now equal to the Glock in reliability. And, they are an American company making a great product -- HERE, in America.

Also, throw in the fact that they make great rifles, too! The M&P rifles, by all measures, run great. And, they make them available in a variety of options and price points, too!

Any reason why S&W won't be the KING gun maker in the years to come?
As mentioned, no military has chosen the platform. I've yet to even hear of anyone in our own military using them, but then I could be wrong there. Also, Glock is very warm towards its civilian customers. Just go to Smyrna, GA for a day. The only reason I know of that is preventing a single-stack 9mm or .380 is import regulations. Is that the only reason? Maybe. They do have a plant in Smyrna, GA, but they are supposed to be export-only. But honestly, with the 26/27/33 out there, why would Glock bother making a pistol with 1/8" less thickness and half the capacity? Look how their 36 sells compared to their 30. I suspect it would be a similar situation with any other caliber.

WinThePennant
November 10, 2012, 04:48 PM
Regarding military uses, please read:

http://ir.smith-wesson.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=90977&p=irol-newsArticle_pf&ID=1220183&highlight=


SPRINGFIELD, Mass., Oct. 30 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- Smith & Wesson Holding Corporation (Nasdaq: SWHC), parent company of Smith & Wesson Corp., the legendary 156-year old company in the global business of safety, security, protection and sport, announced today that it has shipped 7,500 M&P9 pistols to the U.S. Armed Forces in Iraq for distribution to Iraqi military and security forces. The procurement order was issued by the U.S. Army Tank-Automotive and Armaments Command. Smith & Wesson will also supply supplemental accessories and spare parts for the firearms.

Hangingrock
November 10, 2012, 05:15 PM
Yesterday afternoon I was at the range shooting the Glock G17 and S&W MP9. I have no preference between the two. I’ll allow that I have more experience with the Glock G17. Either pistol is satisfactory. As far as preference I’m neutral.

The S&W trigger system was a nettlesome issue at first but with extended usage is a nonissue now.

The OEM sights on both pistols were replaced with after market sets. The Glock G17 as a Warren plain black system and the S&W MP9 a Novak front night sight with a 10-8 U-Notch plain rear sight.

montgomery381
November 10, 2012, 06:02 PM
It is really up to the user. Which ever one feels better. I have both a 17 and an M&P 9mm. They are both accurate and well made. And my Glock 17 was made in the USA. So which ever one strikes your fancy.

9mmepiphany
November 10, 2012, 06:26 PM
The M&P is what it is, a competitively priced, exceptionally ergonomic, reliable, easy to shoot and reasonably accurate pistol. Some would argue the platform is far more ergonomic that the Glocks; I'd argue that the trigger is better and they're more accurate.
This is interesting and the usual complaints from M&P9 owners are the gritty triggers, lack of distinct reset and so-so accuracy....granted a lot depends on the level of your comparison and what you find acceptable. I should admit that I really like the M&P line and the M&P9 is my platform of choice for competition...also that I have long owned a Glock G19.

I got into the M&P line late, because I knew that the first ones introduced to market were really beta testing. To their credit S&W stepped right up to address problems...dropping magazines and deteriorating striker tips...and these issues are well in the past. They also addressed the sear stalling, by going with a larger sear plunger/spring.

A larger issue was the lack of accuracy in the 9mm versions. The M&P was optimized for the .40 and the 9mm barrels were unlocking too soon...also the fit of the barrels left quite a bit to be desired (read Hilton Yam's blog for testing results)...and they use the same .40 extractor. The current barrels are fit much tighter to the breachface (comparable to StormLake barrels). They still use the extractor optimized for the .40, but the problem isn't widespread enough...except with competitors...to justify a production redesign

The trigger of the M&P has long been a weak point of the design. The uptake is mostly affected by the contour and lack of polish of the striker block where it contacts the trigger bar. It's reset has always been indistinct and would even sometimes offer a false reset. This last has been addressed in the aftermarket by Apex Tactical Specialties with their RAM and the factory has followed with a better reset on the new Shield. Due to the action geometry, the M&P can be tuned finer than the Glock. I actually prefer my M&P9 equipped with the Apex Tactical FSS trigger modification to my 1911 build's trigger when shooting quickly.

I'm not a great shooter, but I think I'm a bit more than capable of wringing a pistol out. My stock M&P9 took a lot of work to hold a 3" group at 5-7 yards. Installing the FSS immediately shrunk that to a dime sized group (.75"). These were shot outside, standing, using a two handed grip

Having spent 28 years in LE, I realize that there are different definitions of acceptable triggers and accuracy. I'd say the stock M&P trigger would be acceptable to 80% of users

snake_plisskin
November 10, 2012, 06:46 PM
I was at the range today and decided to rent a glock 17 and see how it stacks up against my m&p9 and ruger kp89 in terms of accuracy. For these targets I shot 17 rounds out of each gun. Probably not stellar accuracy from what some people can do but I was pretty happy with it (the black circle is 6" in diameter). All 3 guns are stock and seemed pretty comparable but it looks like I shot the ruger the best today.

pdosh
November 10, 2012, 08:14 PM
I'm in the M&P camp. A couple of years ago I started shooting USPSA & IDPA at a couple of local clubs. I decided to go with a different platform than my SIG 226. I wanted to shoot Production class. IDPA puts the XD in a different class, so that leaves out XD. I also wanted to shoot cast bullets. What about a Glock? Buy the gun and a new barrel. But the finger grooves don't fit my hand very well. What about those stock sights? Lots of guys replace the stock plastic sights too.

Pluses for the M&P, American company and made here. Don't need a new barrel, three different back straps to fit you're hand well. You can take the slide off without pulling the trigger. If you want a safety, you can get it. And I like the looks better too.

So, I bought a M&P Pro in 40 S&W. My reason for 40 is because I can load major for Limited/limited 10, or download and shoot production, which is what I normally do. I was already set up to cast and reload 40. I bought the Pro because I was using it for competition, not carry.

Well, since then I've bought a M&P 40c with CT laser grips, another plus. I like how they go on and come off. A M&P 22 and finally a M&P Shield in 9mm. Oh, and a few months ago I bought a little stock in the company too.

I've been very pleased with Smith & Wesson on all counts. People rave about the trigger on the Shield over the normal M&P. Maybe it's because I've shot them enough, but really, my 40c has about as good a trigger as the Pro and they are both a little better than the Shield.

But I will tell you, I have a friend that has a glock 19 and I shoot it very well.

A plus for the Glock is, options for modifications. M&P hasn't caught up quite yet on that count. Glocks are good, but make mine a Smith.

The Lone Haranguer
November 10, 2012, 08:48 PM
I like to call the M&P a "better-feeling Glock" and have owned one (9mm compact) and shot another as a rental (9mm full size, which impressed me enough to want to buy the compact). The compact had 100% perfect reliability from the very first round.

Sam Cade
November 10, 2012, 09:08 PM
Regarding military uses, please read:


TACOM buys all sorts of stuff for the Iraqis. Few years ago they were buying them thousands and thousands of Ruger P95s. I guess they have "lost" :uhoh: them all by now. IIRC unit cost was only about $250.

Anyone know the code for the M&P buy?

Rockyriver
November 10, 2012, 11:08 PM
I recently switched over to the M&P series for my carry gun, I was a Glock died in the wool fan, however after comparing the two on the range and other features and feel the M&P is the winner in my book.

guyfromohio
November 11, 2012, 07:35 AM
Glock is my preference, but not because I dislike the Smith. Nothing fits my hand or shoots as well as my Gen 4 19.

rodinal220
November 11, 2012, 09:15 AM
S&W isn't in the the same league as Glock IMHO.The S&W/M&P line has had a host of QC problems. I have purchased three new S&W products and two have been stinkers,At least S&W replaced my BG38 with a new gun and so far no problems,but I do not trust it yet. My personal FS M&P 9mm can't hit the broad side of a barn,any of my Glocks can. Glock did bite themselves in the butt by trying to cheapen(Gen4) some components with MIM,bad move.

3leggeddog
November 11, 2012, 10:11 AM
I rented both 3 times at the range,the M+P 9c and glock 26. The trigger on the glock was "mushy" and I cant shoot lead bullets threw it. Now its 2 years later with the M+P9c,I shoot on advarge 3 box's a month 150rds x12x2years= 3600rds .
The trigger has smooth out nice ,NO problems at all. I didnt try to make a "race' gun out of it,nor expect it to hold up like a $1500.00 + gun!
The gen.4 glock problems are well know. My next gun will be a older Sig 226 or 229...

WoodchuckAssassin
November 11, 2012, 10:25 AM
Glocks and I have never got along. I don't care for the grip angle, and the "mushy" trigger (also described by another poster), is something I can't get used to. I shot one Glock that had a nice trigger job on it, but it was such a light pull that I wouldn't ever feel comfortable carrying it without an external safety (even if Glock markets their "Safe" Action Trigger as a safety, to me its always been a poor excuse for a safety).

I've never shot the M&P, but I will say that it feels MUCH better in my hand than the Glock. Happy Hunting!

powder
November 11, 2012, 10:46 AM
Any reason why S&W won't be the KING gun maker in the years to come?

S&W has pulled back from LE support, recently, in the 1911s at least. b.) Their LE Armorer's courses are not as prevalent as Glock or SIG's. c.) They have not gone after the market like Glock has.

I've owned/shot, competed with several M&Ps: 9Pro, 9c, 40c, 45mid-sized. All require an Apex something or other for my trigger feel of preference, at $40-60 minimum. The Glock work is minimal and cheap/fast to do. The way the 40c shoots was the most impressive aspect of the M&P line-up for me. The M&P mags are much more expensive and not as easy to find. YMMV.

Rittmeister
November 11, 2012, 02:33 PM
It's M&P for me. I much prefer the way it fits my hand - and yes, while I have nothing against Glock in principal I find that the grip angle is uncomfortable for me and I really do prefer having a thumb safety.

ku4hx
November 11, 2012, 07:27 PM
I'm a Glock person pure and simple but I have more Rugers than Glocks. But my wife is tending toward the M&P and the XD and that just tickles me to no end. Might even have to buy another safe.

Why be picky? Guns are like candy or ice cream. Enjoy the variety!

jon_in_wv
November 11, 2012, 08:07 PM
You can claim reliability issues with either platform. Both are normally as reliable as each other. I have an early M&P with well over 10,000 rounds down range. I have had a total of ONE malfunction early on. I trust my life with my M&P 9C with no reservations at all. As far as I'm concerned the only real difference between the two is personal preference.

Old Dog
November 12, 2012, 03:43 AM
S&W has pulled back from LE support, recently, in the 1911s at least. b.) Their LE Armorer's courses are not as prevalent as Glock or SIG's. c.) They have not gone after the market like Glock hasHuh? This must be breaking news ... we get great support from S&W, and we've got an armorers' course scheduled for this month ...

powder
November 12, 2012, 06:56 PM
Huh? This must be breaking news ... we get great support from S&W, and we've got an armorers' course scheduled for this month ...

No, it's not breaking news at all. Matter of fact the stream on it is about 7 MONTHS old... http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=99650#Post99650

IIRC, a S&W Armorer's LE Course goes about twice a year, somewhere in the Ohio area. Between Glock and SIG LE courses, I can pick around 6 of theirs that are within 150 miles of Chicago, and they are more affordable.

Then, there is the Officer pricing, and just plain availability of the guns-1911s for example: SIG TacOps with extra mags and holster and free shipping for $900. S&W E-Series? Can you find one for less than that, IF you can find one w/o issues? Meh...

Fred_G
November 12, 2012, 07:02 PM
S&W has pulled back from LE support, recently, in the 1911s at least. b.) Their LE Armorer's courses are not as prevalent as Glock or SIG's. c.) They have not gone after the market like Glock has.

I've owned/shot, competed with several M&Ps: 9Pro, 9c, 40c, 45mid-sized. All require an Apex something or other for my trigger feel of preference, at $40-60 minimum. The Glock work is minimal and cheap/fast to do. The way the 40c shoots was the most impressive aspect of the M&P line-up for me. The M&P mags are much more expensive and not as easy to find. YMMV.
Both Glock mags and M&P mags are the same price, and pretty available here: http://gregcotellc.com/cart/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=108&products_id=845

$24.95 same as the Factory Glock mags.

9mmepiphany
November 12, 2012, 07:34 PM
S&W has pulled back from LE support, recently, in the 1911s at least.
My first question would be, Why would you introduce S&W's LE support for the 1911 E-series into a discussion of the M&P

No, it's not breaking news at all. Matter of fact the stream on it is about 7 MONTHS old
Then you cite a link which explains that S&W is increasing their M&P support. :uhoh:

I don't blame them of not wanting to get into the 1911 LE business. If SA's experience is any example of the effort required to keep them running...S&W just doesn't need it

phantomak47
November 12, 2012, 10:17 PM
After watching the sw mps break through out my academy class....i would never carry one

Sam1911
November 13, 2012, 05:14 AM
After watching the sw mps break through out my academy class....i would never carry one
Can you be specific about what kind of problems they had?

CountGlockulla
November 13, 2012, 06:48 AM
I've had both and stuck with Glocks. Easier to work on and I prefer the trigger.

Some Glocks are made in the USA and Glock provides US jobs. Please don't let that sway you. Kind of like the "buy American" when it comes to cars. The Toyota Carolla is the most American made vehicle manufacture today.

Dean1818
November 13, 2012, 06:56 AM
M&P here

Have a Shield in 40 and a M&P 45C


Cant decide which I like best, but the Shield is my CCW

These guns are highly reliable

I like the grip angle of the M&P over the Glock

I like the fact that the M&P is more rounded, and feels less square

I reload, so a steady diet of cast lead is perfect in both guns

I like the fact that I am keeping an American company and workers going
Vs. Some other country


To me.... The M&P is the way to go

They are putting better triggers on all of the newer pistols as well

Skribs
November 13, 2012, 12:29 PM
While I think Glock still has a significant part of the market share, I don't think it's the king that it used to be. Not that Glock has sunk any, it's just that others have risen up to meet it. I agree with 9mm's assessment of the M&P trigger: it was absolutely terrible in every respect until I put an APEX kit and trigger into it, and now it's great.

I think the "Glock" nowadays is the general idea of polymer-framed, striker-fired pistols. There are different models out with different pros and cons. I'm transitioning from my XDm 40 compact to my M&P 9C, and am pretty happy.

Teachu2
November 13, 2012, 03:42 PM
Shoot them both, and buy accordingly. My wife shot both, and actually shot the Glock a little better, but chose the M&P 9c because it was far more comfortable for her. We went to the range for a half hour yesterday, and she shot 130+ rounds - she stopped when she got tired of loading mags!

And I just ordered a G26, to go with my G34, G30, and G21. They shoot better for me.

I suspect that once you get through the initial beta testing all the major manufacturers seem to do but call first production run, the failure rate of Glock, S&W, Ruger, and XD all run about the same.

Fred_G
November 13, 2012, 03:51 PM
While I think Glock still has a significant part of the market share, I don't think it's the king that it used to be. Not that Glock has sunk any, it's just that others have risen up to meet it. I agree with 9mm's assessment of the M&P trigger: it was absolutely terrible in every respect until I put an APEX kit and trigger into it, and now it's great.

I think the "Glock" nowadays is the general idea of polymer-framed, striker-fired pistols. There are different models out with different pros and cons. I'm transitioning from my XDm 40 compact to my M&P 9C, and am pretty happy.
What does the Apex stuff do for the M&P, I have heard good things about it. I could get used to the M&P trigger, but a shorter trigger reset would sell me on it.

Thaddeus Jones
November 13, 2012, 04:18 PM
Glock. On trigger alone.

No need to rebuild a brand new Glock, right out of the box, with Apex parts and Storm Lake barrels, just to make it useable. ;)

Teachu2
November 13, 2012, 04:22 PM
Realize as well that Glock did a Henry Ford to the American handgun market in the 1980's. They produced a simple, reliable, durable, extremely uniform, and pretty inexpensive handgun, like the Model T. Then they marketed it to LE agencies like they were invading Italy. They overwhelmed the LE market, which gave them acceptance with the American public, and they became the dominant player in poly-framed handguns in America.

Glock changed the American handgun market, and it took the rest of the manufacturers time to realize that the future had already happened. By then, Glock had extablished it's monarchy. They so dominated the market, and had such a large market share, that the only real change that could happen happened. Just as other car makers went to assemply lines, other gun makers went to their versions of Glocks. Ford lost market share when that happened, but still seems to be a major player. Same with Glock.

The company that is first to successfully market a product gets the lion's share of the market initially. Others follow, and dilute the market. Some bring a better product, some a lower price, and some a more attractive marketing program.

Warp
November 13, 2012, 05:03 PM
Glock. On trigger alone.

No need to rebuild a brand new Glock, right out of the box, with Apex parts and Storm Lake barrels, just to make it useable. ;)

Some of the people with ejection problems from recent Glocks (3rd and 4th gen) might disagree with that. The Apex extractor is known for a reason.

Glock seems to have mucked with their winning formula. :(

9mmepiphany
November 13, 2012, 05:06 PM
Glock changed the American handgun market, and it took the rest of the manufacturers time to realize that the future had already happened. By then, Glock had extablished it's monarchy. They so dominated the market, and had such a large market share, that the only real change that could happen happened. Just as other car makers went to assemply lines, other gun makers went to their versions of Glocks. Ford lost market share when that happened, but still seems to be a major player. Same with Glock.

The company that is first to successfully market a product gets the lion's share of the market initially. Others follow, and dilute the market. Some bring a better product, some a lower price, and some a more attractive marketing program.
The rule of thumb is that the #1 company in any field will have 50% of the market, #2 will have 25% and the other companies fight over the rest.

The thing is that to stay #1, the top company needs to continue to innovate... in marketingspeak: Zag when the industry Zigs...think Apple with their iPhone and iPad

This is where Glock is now trailing...think interchangable backstraps. Then they have been slow in addressing issues with weapon mounted lights affecting feeding (Gen3; G22) and BTF (Gen 3/4; G17/19)

guyfromohio
November 13, 2012, 05:12 PM
Ignore the interwebz folklore. The Gen 4s solved the "doesn't feel right in my hand" problem. I've had 2 Gen 4 19s.... one first round of production and one last weekend. Both are the fastestest, steadiest guns I've shot. And I've shot a few. I'm sure there were some some ejection issues out there, but I tire if the internet warriors stating as fact.

Warp
November 13, 2012, 05:14 PM
Ignore the interwebz folklore. The Gen 4s solved the "doesn't feel right in my hand" problem. I've had 2 Gen 4 19s.... one first round of production and one last weekend. Both are the fastestest, steadiest guns I've shot. And I've shot a few. I'm sure there were some some ejection issues out there, but I tire if the internet warriors stating as fact.

There are a lot of ejection issues.

Calling the people experiencing the problems names doesn't help anything in any way.

Curious...how many rounds do you have through each of those Gen4 Glock 19s?

Fred_G
November 13, 2012, 05:29 PM
Glock. On trigger alone.

No need to rebuild a brand new Glock, right out of the box, with Apex parts and Storm Lake barrels, just to make it useable. ;)
Ahh, OK, thanks for the info. I don't like Glock triggers either. Nothing wrong with a Glock if you like them. The joy of a free market...

Skribs
November 13, 2012, 05:33 PM
What does the Apex stuff do for the M&P, I have heard good things about it. I could get used to the M&P trigger, but a shorter trigger reset would sell me on it.

Well, APEX trigger replaced the hinged trigger with a lever-style trigger, and since I HATE the hinge, that was a big help. The machined parts reduced the spongyness in the pull and grittiness in the reset. The RAM made the reset that much easier to feel.

Seriously, the difference is huge. I've heard that XD has the best trigger out of the barrel, but that Glocks is easiest to tune without buying parts. Personally, I'm happy with my M&P + Apex.

Fred_G
November 13, 2012, 06:27 PM
Well, APEX trigger replaced the hinged trigger with a lever-style trigger, and since I HATE the hinge, that was a big help. The machined parts reduced the spongyness in the pull and grittiness in the reset. The RAM made the reset that much easier to feel.

Seriously, the difference is huge. I've heard that XD has the best trigger out of the barrel, but that Glocks is easiest to tune without buying parts. Personally, I'm happy with my M&P + Apex.
Thanks for the info, I need to research this more. Was not aware it replaced the trigger as well. That might make it worth it right there. I don't like that hinged thing.

Skribs
November 13, 2012, 06:29 PM
There are different parts, I do not believe the trigger is part of the carry "kit" but it is available for purchase separately.

Fred_G
November 13, 2012, 06:31 PM
Thanks Skribs, I have not really looked into the Apex stuff too much, as $ is a little tight, and when I look at stuff, I tend to want it more, and then buy it...

:)

Skribs
November 13, 2012, 06:39 PM
I hear that, Fred!

3twelves
November 13, 2012, 09:39 PM
The M&P is light years ahead of the glock.

guyfromohio
November 13, 2012, 10:26 PM
Warp...

Probably 4 or 5 thousand through #1.... sold it in June. I put 300 through #2 yesterday...

Here are the first 10 rounds ever shot through it ... right out of the box at 25 ft.

174706

mach1.3
November 14, 2012, 03:00 PM
I presently have a MP9c. I love this little gun. It shoots great is accurate and fits my hand well. I have small hands so I use the small backstrap.
I've owned both the G26 and G27 both good guns but I prefer the MP9c.
The 3.5# trigger on the G26 was maybe slightly better than the MP9c but
I shoot more accurately with the hinged SW trigger. I am not a competitive shooter. I do however also love my G36 with the lighter trigger connector installed. Oh well, I have always rouletted around with my pistols---one week it's this one the next something else. The MP9c has stayed a favorite.

jon_in_wv
November 14, 2012, 09:16 PM
I have well over 10,000 rounds through my M&P 9C and I love it. I've only had one malfunction and that was in the first 100 rounds or so. I have no idea what caused it but it has never happened again in the next 10,000 rounds. Its still looks and shoots like new after years of shooting and daily carry.

gc70
November 15, 2012, 03:37 AM
We have had lots of M&Ps and Glocks in my immediate family (myself, my wife and my son). We have had both Glocks and M&Ps in .45, .40 and 9mm and in the compact, mid-size and full-size models.

The only reliability issue we have had with either brand was from premature wear of mag releases on the earliest M&Ps, which was a well-known early production problem that was quickly corrected. In all fairness, the Glocks were probably better maintained because my son is a Glock armorer.

All three of us prefer the ergonomics of the M&Ps. My wife and son say there is not a huge difference in ergonomics with the Glocks, although my wife really likes the Gen4 backstraps. For my part, Glocks just do not feel right in my hand. Strangely enough, that seems to have little impact on how well I shoot Glocks compared to M&Ps.

While the Glocks and M&Ps are all good, I still prefer steel guns. :)

Hangingrock
November 15, 2012, 12:05 PM
http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc277/lowflash/IMG_4695.jpg
Using both a S&W MP9 and Glock G17 @ 25yds (shooting pairs from standing) with a mixture of Winchester PDX1, Remington Golden Saber, and Speer Gold-Dot ammunition. The Winchester DDX1 ammunition was +P. From my view point there is little difference between the MP9 and G17. I simply don’t get into the grip angle/ ergonomics debates. Both pistols are functional and that’s important aspect to me.

Warp
November 15, 2012, 01:01 PM
Looks good

jon_in_wv
November 15, 2012, 07:03 PM
My M&P was an earlier on and the mag catch did wear out at around the 8000 round mark. I didn't have any problems but a guy who was firing my weapon dropped the mag by accident so I decided to get it fixed. The weapon was back to me within a week and S&W even replaced the recoil spring without me asking. Shortly after that I changed to a heavier return spring and a APEX RAM to give me a little more positive reset. Its still the best shooting pistol I've every had.

marineshooter
November 15, 2012, 10:03 PM
Hi , I have not been around much, so here is my question. I have M&P 9mm, with ammo at a good price is that Wolf or Tula ammo any good for target practice? Will it hurt the pistol in the long run

Fred_G
November 15, 2012, 10:09 PM
Hi , I have not been around much, so here is my question. I have M&P 9mm, with ammo at a good price is that Wolf or Tula ammo any good for target practice? Will it hurt the pistol in the long run
I shoot the cheap steel Monarch stuff in mine. I would not have a problem shooting the cheap stuff in mine. I don't see what it could hurt.

Warp
November 15, 2012, 10:25 PM
Hi , I have not been around much, so here is my question. I have M&P 9mm, with ammo at a good price is that Wolf or Tula ammo any good for target practice? Will it hurt the pistol in the long run

It is fine practice ammo

guyfromohio
November 16, 2012, 08:29 AM
Cheap works fine, but be aware of range rules.

Fred_G
November 16, 2012, 08:46 AM
Range rules? Indoor range, no .50 cal... Outdoor hay field, nothing incendiary.

Cheap 9mm ammo, is OK at both. :)

holdencm9
November 16, 2012, 12:32 PM
My range just doesn't allow aluminum cases because they can't filter them out with a magnet when they go to collect the brass. Steel fine.

powder
November 17, 2012, 10:29 AM
I cited a link, with a statement from a S&W LE representative, who is quoted as having said they (S&W) are pulling back from their 1911 sales with LE/MIL-as a result of not being able to keep up with the maintenance programs for those agencies. Competing companies like Glock and SIG understand that proof is often in the pudding of LE/MIL contracts, and that the public ALSO perceives that firearms used/trusted by LE/MIL *might* be a dependable choice for citizen purchase.

While the OP title pertains to M&P vs. Glock, in the body of his first post he asks for a general discussion of S&W vs. Glock per MIL/LE markets: with the big picture of a recent contract award for 1911s with the Marine Corps, 1911s are relevant to the questions of market share.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion about which Company ..."doesn't need it." (S&W's business plan). I'm not S&W bashing, but simply stating factual experience from my training, experience, and knowledge from these companies and their respective support, or lack thereof.



Then you cite a link which explains that S&W is increasing their M&P support.

I don't blame them of not wanting to get into the 1911 LE business. If SA's experience is any example of the effort required to keep them running...S&W just doesn't need it

9mmepiphany
November 17, 2012, 11:32 AM
I cited a link, with a statement from a S&W LE representative, who is quoted as having said they (S&W) are pulling back from their 1911 sales with LE/MIL-as a result of not being able to keep up with the maintenance programs for those agencies. Competing companies like Glock and SIG understand that proof is often in the pudding of LE/MIL contracts, and that the public ALSO perceives that firearms used/trusted by LE/MIL *might* be a dependable choice for citizen purchase.
I would think that reading the link you cited:

S&W are not supporting their 1911 line for LE use. He said they are putting all of their efforts into the m&P's
...that one would be justified in taking from this, that S&W was choosing to re-direct their efforts from 1911 support to increase support for their M&P efforts in LE. After all, has there even been a major LE contract in the last 5 years where any 1911 was a contender.

While the OP title pertains to M&P vs. Glock, in the body of his first post he asks for a general discussion of S&W vs. Glock per MIL/LE markets: with the big picture of a recent contract award for 1911s with the Marine Corps, 1911s are relevant to the questions of market share.

One might also note that S&W did not competed for that contact and hasn't been known to pursue any 1911 major contract since the introduction of their 1911 line.

The relevance of their support for the 1911 for Mil/LE would be a apple vs, orange comparison when the question concerns two polymer pistols who are going head to head. The 1911 isn't relevant to all service pistol discussions ;)

easyg
November 17, 2012, 01:12 PM
I've owned both and they are both good pistols.
But overall I prefer Glocks over M&Ps.
Mostly because the trigger is much better on the Glocks.

Having said that...

I have traded away all of my Glocks and all of my M&Ps.
I now prefer my Ruger SRc 9mm and my Springfield Armory XD-45.

btg3
November 17, 2012, 05:54 PM
From the 2012 IDPA National Championship Equipment Survey...

#shooters with 9mm handguns:
71 with Glock 34
19 with Glock 17
5 with Glock 19 or 36


33 with M&P Pro
20 with M&P
3 with M&P 9L

By comparison, all other 9mm makes were one-sie, two-sie.

(In .45ACP there were 10 Glock21 vs 11 M&P)

Teachu2
November 18, 2012, 01:31 AM
From the 2012 IDPA National Championship Equipment Survey...

#shooters with 9mm handguns:
71 with Glock 34
19 with Glock 17
5 with Glock 19 or 36



Should that read "5 with Glock 19 or 26"? The 36 is .45acp.

btg3
November 18, 2012, 09:08 AM
Should that read "5 with Glock 19 or 26"? The 36 is .45acp.
Nice catch!
I suspect that for the 36, the caliber is in error and should have been .45ACP, as you point out.
One shooter used a 36.
There were no shooters with a 26, according the source (IDPA Tactical Journal - 4Q 2012)

Infidel4life11
November 18, 2012, 09:33 AM
I've had my M&P and 3 glock 9mm's for over a year now. Last weekend I went to a two day defensive pistol course and shot about 1200rds through my M&P. It was a mix of federal 115gr FMJ and Winchester Ranger 147gr FMJ. Over the two days I didn't clean the M&P, shot through glass from the inside of the car, rolled around in the dirt, banged it off Vtac barricades and was generally not nice to the Smith. I didn't have a single issue all weekend.

powder
November 23, 2012, 02:31 AM
Here it is from long ago, up to today: many would LOVE to run the 1076 or 4506 series, yet S&W says not so.

Most do run the Glock 17/19/22 as their Admin. says yes.

Plain and simple, KISS.

JTQ
November 23, 2012, 08:49 AM
many would LOVE to run the 1076 or 4506 series, yet S&W says not so.
Maybe not the 4506, but S&W is making the 4566 TSW for the West Virginia State Police. My guess is you have enough money, and want to order enough of them S&W will make just about anything you want.

http://www.policemag.com/channel/weapons/news/2011/08/16/west-virginia-state-police-and-wyoming-highway-patrol-adopt-s-w-pistols.aspx

Infidel4life11
November 23, 2012, 09:10 AM
I have both, the smith fits my hand like no other. Glocks are kinda like AR's to me parts are everywhere. If I could only have one it would be the glock because it's a lot easier to work on and I like the trigger more.

otasan56
November 23, 2012, 09:34 AM
My G17 is with me 24/7 loaded with Winchester 115gr JHP +p+.

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