rifle action


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icon308win
November 10, 2012, 07:30 PM
I am wondering what actions are the best to work with as far as rebarrelling and action works and triggers

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Ramone
November 10, 2012, 08:15 PM
If you are talking Bolt Actions, Savage gets big points for using an easy to work with Barrel Nut on their actions.

Their Accu-Trigger really doesn't require any work at all, and is easily adjusted.

icon308win
November 10, 2012, 08:20 PM
yes bolt actions

BoilerUP
November 10, 2012, 08:57 PM
Savage Model 10/110 actions (includes the 11/111, 12/112, 14/114, 16/116) are far and away the best bolt action for DIY barrel swaps; you can go from 223 to 338 Edge with just a new prefit barrel and bolt head and install both in <15min once you do it a few times.

I believe the Marlin XL7 uses a barrel nut and will accept Savage small/standard shank barrels too, but its aftermarket is VERY small.

Remington 700s are far and away the most popular base action with the largest aftermarket (Savage is a distant second), but barrel installation and chambering is a gunsmith proposition.

icon308win
November 10, 2012, 09:05 PM
how are Howa and weatherby vanguards

BoilerUP
November 10, 2012, 09:13 PM
how are Howa and weatherby vanguards

Good rifles, limited aftermarket and fewer gunsmiths that specialize in them.

Ash
November 11, 2012, 07:23 AM
They are good rifle with enough support to be no big deal. But the Savage is bar none the easiest to rebarrel (the Mossberg 100/4x4 and others that now use a barrel nut aren't so bad, either). I changed my 30-06 to 270 without any problem at all. And, you can even adjust the chamber to exactly fit a certain round, if you want. The initial expense of a receiver wrench is cheap compared to what you can do with one.

Granted, you won't want to rebarrel over and over again - which is to say you won't want to rebarrel for different loads or in some way treat it like a take-down rifle, but it is an easy job. The only potential problem would be using a barrel that has installed iron sights. Getting the sights to line up with the top of the receiver can be a pill. Otherwise, the 110 action is the easiest to do (and to get a really consistent chamber).

Halal Pork
November 11, 2012, 07:30 AM
Push feed actions are much simpler to rebarrel than CRF. That is my understanding at least. I'm no gunsmith. Are you planning to do it yourself?

jmr40
November 11, 2012, 08:21 AM
Savage rifles are designed for DIY types and can be done for less money. All the serious shooters I know who use Savage replace the Accutrigger. It is DIY adjustable, but not a great trigger.

Remingtons will require a gunsmith, but probably have the most options and have the most gunsmiths who know how to work on them.

Reloadron
November 11, 2012, 08:54 AM
I am wondering what actions are the best to work with as far as rebarrelling and action works and triggers
In my opinion triggers are among the easier things to improve and work on with so many after market triggers available for so many makes and models. When you start getting into replacing barrels things change in that specialized tools become necessary like barrel vise and action wrenches. The same holds true for many bolt assemblies on bolt action rifles to easily dissemble and reassemble the bolts. So once we get away from simpler drop in replacement parts special tools are needed for different actions.

Personally I like Remington actions as I happen to have more tools available for those actions but that being just me. I just see it as a matter of what tooling someone has.

Ron

jimmyraythomason
November 11, 2012, 09:00 AM
Push feed actions are much simpler to rebarrel than CRF. Not in all cases. The Mauser 98 reguires nothing additional in barrel replacement but the Yugo M-48(also a Mauser 98 but in an intermediate length)does reguire a cut for the extractor.

Halal Pork
November 11, 2012, 09:27 AM
Not in all cases. The Mauser 98 reguires nothing additional in barrel replacement but the Yugo M-48(also a Mauser 98 but in an intermediate length)does reguire a cut for the extractor.
Interesting.

pdd614
November 11, 2012, 09:49 AM
Easiest to rebarrel bolt action has got to be the tc dimension rifle. The rifle has its flaws, but changing out a barrel isn't one of them. What other rifle company provides a torque wrench for changing barrels? Savage has never advertised there rifles as switch barrel capable.

Ash
November 11, 2012, 10:08 AM
They have not advertised their rifles in that way, true, but that does not change the fact that it is easy to do. Plus, the TC does the same thing the Savage does, but with an exaggerated barrel nut.

dirtyjim
November 11, 2012, 12:37 PM
i prefer to work on mauser actions.
but as far as rebarreling goes i cut the barrel threads to fit the particular action i'm working on and do not use short chambered pre-threaded barrels due to the variances in receiver threads from action to action.

icon308win
November 11, 2012, 12:47 PM
I have a TC Icon I do like the rifle just no parts for them.I cant find anyone who rebarrels them.Id just like to get a rifle I could have customized over the yrs

pdd614
November 11, 2012, 04:55 PM
Ash, actually the dimension rifle head spaces nothing like a savage. Barrels from TC come with a pre installed extension, much like an ar15, and the bolt locks into the extension. The savage basically head spaces just like a remington 700, except obviously the headspace is adjustable via the barrel nut.

icon308win
November 11, 2012, 05:02 PM
id prefer a traditional rifle instead of one of the quik change ones im thinking rem 700 Weatherby vanguard ruger 77 winchester 70 browning x bolt

pdd614
November 11, 2012, 05:39 PM
Sorry Icon, I guess I was confused by your first post. Thought you wanted an easy to rebarrel action. Weatherby vanguards and howa's have metric barrel threads, and alot of smith's won't touch them. It might be easier to have someone rebarrel the TC icon for you. I went down that road myself, and found a very reputable smith that has a action wrench for the Icon. As far as features go, the Icon action has all the others you mentioned beat. None of these other actions offer three intregral recoil lugs, integral picatinny rails, and a three lug bolt. All the icon needs in my book is a nice adjustable two stage trigger.

Reloadron
November 11, 2012, 05:42 PM
The below pictured rifle began as a Remington Model 725 Bolt Action Centerfire Rifle originally chambered in .222 Rem. 1959 24" barrel. (http://www.remington.com/products/archived/centerfire/bolt-action/model-725.aspx) The original barrel was a pencil barrel. I re-barreled the rifle and chambered it in .223. It was done as part of a NRA Gunsmithing class I took about 15 years ago. The action was trued and the bolt lapped. This turned out to be one of my best little tack driving rifles. I should still have the original walnut stock and pencil barrel around here somewhere. The new stock is aluminum bedded and the barrel channel opened up. The stainless barrel on the blued action makes for a nice contrast. The barrel was maybe a Krieger or Shilen as I forget and the rifle was my first chamber cut and barrel threading.

http://bearblain.com/images/725%203.png

I later did several Remington actions in .308. I really enjoy shooting that little rifle.

Ron

pdd614
November 11, 2012, 06:13 PM
Another note: getting the barrel off a howa is something of a chore. In the link below, you will see the type of action wrench necessary for removing the factory barrel. Insane.

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=321795&Number=3649864#Post3649864

Reloadron
November 11, 2012, 07:16 PM
I loved his comments in the link pdd614 was kind enough to provide:

Barrels are torqued on Super Tight. Here is what you need to break one loose.
Almost as magical as a double rainbow all the way...the double barrel vice!

Nice setup the way he went about it. The receiver wrench looks to be a common universal for a flat bottom round top receiver. He most definitely anchored that barrel. :)

Ron

Ash
November 11, 2012, 08:48 PM
pdd, I'll take your word on that as I based my observations solely on photos. Based on the video, it looks exactly like the Savage mounting, save for the barrel being retained by a locking bolt in the receiver and not threaded. It is locked to the action with the nut all the same.

But in any case, the Savage is easy to rebarrel - I have done it and it was really easy - more to the point the Savage will be able to rebarrel to a specific load as opposed to a standard chamber. In any case, rebarrelling will be cheaper with better after-market support on the Savage - though the TC seems to be easier to accomplish in the field. I wonder how long the torque wrench will last?

helotaxi
November 12, 2012, 07:23 AM
They have not advertised their rifles in that way, true, but that does not change the fact that it is easy to do.Savage doesn't advertise it that way because it was not designed with end user barrel work in mind. The design was built around fully interchangeable parts and ease of manufacture. Unlike a Remington style action, a Savage type rifle with the nut to set headspace does not require a machinist or time on the lathe to set the headspace. That saves man-hours and machine time during production and that drives costs way down. Another advantage is that a machinist's mistake while setting the shoulder doesn't turn a barrel into scrap.

There are several other features of the Savage design that were conceived for ease of manufacture that have lent themselves to improved accuracy, like the floating bolt head, or increased strength, like the bolt handle with a cut channel for the bolt body that makes sure the bolt handle doesn't fall off from a bad solder job. The trigger is held in with hardened pins and E-clips instead of press fit pins which makes changing the trigger group much easier, though I personally like the Accutrigger.

The overall result of the Savage design, though it was not a design goal, is the equivalent of the AR-15 for the bolt rifle. It's essentially an erector set of a rifle. You don't need to be a gunsmith, merely an armorer, to work on one. There's a bigger aftermarket for the Rem 700 family, but the Savage is closing the gap and more and more barrel makers are discovering that there is a strong market for prechambered, prethreaded, drop in Savage barrels. You can get a complete Savage barrel ready to thread into your action for only a tiny bit more than the cost of a contoured blank and the couple of hand tools and a set of chamber gages cost a lot less than having one Rem barrel fit to an action by a gunsmith, and they're a one time cost.

If you're right handed, there is a decent aftermarket for stocks for the Savage. If you're left handed...well, it's special order time and get in line. I just ordered a stock for my long range hunting rifle and was given a lead time of 18 weeks. I'm certain the result will be worth the wait and it was really the only option that I had to get a good stock and keep the detachable mag. Gain a couple rounds of capacity in the process (factory WSM mag holds 2) which is a plus in theory and go to a better magazine which is a plus in reality. Most of the tactical chassis manufacturers inlet for Savage rifles these days.

BoilerUP
November 12, 2012, 07:26 AM
I still wish Bell & Carlson would get on the barrel nut bandwagon...if they'd make the A2 Medalist for the 110 long action and/or the M40 Medalist for either short or long I'd buy multiples...

cacoltguy
November 12, 2012, 08:09 AM
Remington 700's are by far the most common action out there and as such you will have no problem finding parts and a gunsmith to work on them.

In my opinion though, the Weatherby Vanguard/Howa 1500 (Vanguard actions are made by Howa and identical to the 1500) is a better designed action. They have better overall fit and finish with typical high level Japanese quality control and attention to detail. It has a flat based bottom instead of the tubular design of the Remington 700, which allows for more secure contact with the stock. The Howa/Vanguard has a solid, more durable one piece forged bolt and a large integral recoil lug. The Remington bolt is tacked together from 5 pieces and the action uses a cheap washer type recoil lug that is sandwiched between the receiver and barrel. Serious high end rifle shooters often send a Remington 700 to a gunsmith to lap the bolt lugs and true up the action because of less than ideal tolerances which are caused from being machined from bar stock (cheaper to do than machine forging)and then heat treated which causes warping. Howas however are machined forged and are basically good to go as is and see little benefit from action truing.

The reason I am saying this is because I am currently making a more serious long range rifle to be used in 1000 yard F-class shooting. I already have a Weatherby Vanguard but assumed a Remington 700 was the way to go. After quite a bit of research and talking to my gunsmith I learned that I would be downgrading from the action I already have unless I dropped a decent amount of money to "improve" an out-of-box Remington 700 action. However, it's not as easy to find a gunsmith to re-barrel them due to having metric threads. Many either can't or don't want to be bothered to swap out the gears in their lathe to cut metric threads. As someone else mentioned, the barrels on Howa actions are on there tighter than hell and removing them can be a monumental effort. Nevertheless, in my opinion it's worth going with the Howa. Definitely one of the best actions out there for the money. They never caught on like the Remington 700's due to Howa and Weatherby marketing them as entry level consumer grade rifles with limited barrel options, but more and more people are starting to realize the inherent superior design of the action.

helotaxi
November 12, 2012, 08:15 AM
That's why serious long range shooters start with a custom action based on the Rem700 pattern rather than try to polish an off-the-shelf Remington made turd. They get the broad aftermarket of available stocks, triggers, etc. without the need to clean up a mess in the form of a poorly made, acceptable design.

cacoltguy
November 12, 2012, 08:25 AM
Very true Helotaxi but I'm assuming the OP isn't in the market for a high end custom action (though I could be wrong) and if he is buying something off the shelf I would recommend a Howa or Weatherby. That's why I'm re barreling my Vanguard in .260 Remington. I just don't want to spend several thousand on a custom built rifle but still want the best quality for my money.

helotaxi
November 12, 2012, 01:16 PM
Nice thing about a Savage action is that you don't need, or want, to lap the bolt lugs or a lot of the other things done to a Rem action and you don't have to pay a gunsmith to put a premium barrel on it. The aftermarket for the Savage is much deeper than that for the Weatherby/Howa as well. The Vanguard that I shot was a very nice action, though. Much nicer than a factory Remington.

cacoltguy
November 12, 2012, 05:31 PM
Good point. I think the Savage is a great platform and I would go with it over the Remington for all the reasons posted above. They always seem to get good reviews for out of box accuracy. Like I said, I already had the Vanguard so it definitely saves me a lot of money over starting with something totally different from scratch.

icon308win
November 12, 2012, 05:55 PM
ppd 614 I do really like my icon action is smooth as glass very stout short bolt throw I just hav'nt been able to find someone who rebarrels them

Ash
November 12, 2012, 08:19 PM
Helotaxi, regardless of what Savage intended, the result is the same.

helotaxi
November 13, 2012, 07:30 AM
Helotaxi, regardless of what Savage intended, the result is the same.
No doubt, but the issue at hand was why they hadn't advertised it.

BoilerUP
November 13, 2012, 07:50 AM
No doubt, but the issue at hand was why they hadn't advertised it.

They'd rather you buy a new rifle?

Liability, actual or percieved?

Ash
November 13, 2012, 06:35 PM
No, the issue at hand is whether or not it is easily done. It is easy to do.

Mazda does not advertise that you can mount 4 kayaks on the roof of a Tribute. I can tell you most definitely that it can be done.

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