100 yd Handgun Shooting


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David E
November 12, 2012, 12:15 PM
I was giving a lesson to a fellow wanting to improve his skills. He was jerking horribly, so we went to the long range area.

At 100 yds, there is an IPSC "classic" (amoeba) steel target. I drew my G-34 and said "you can do this if you pay attention to the fundamentals." Bang! Clang!

He fired a few and was hitting at 50, 75, etc. I decided to try his gun....in case it was the problem. It was an M&P Compact with no work whatsoever done to it. Bang! Clang! Nope, it's not the gun.

I gave it back and he missed a few more times. The dirt allowed us to see where the misses went.

I had him hold the gun while I pulled the trigger. The bullet struck very close, then slide lock. "Aim like that," I said.

He reloaded and I could tell he was mad enough to finally focus hard enough on the basics. First shot after the reload: Bang! Clang! His eyes lit up, because just 3 minutes before, he believed the task to be impossible.

He'd also brought an Ortgies .25 vest pocket auto. It's very well made but like most guns of the 20's-30's, had extremely minuscule sights. Undaunted, I tried it on the 100 yd target. It hit left, but had the proper elevation. I made a slight adjustment and Bang! Ting! I hit it on the second shot. He fired the rest of the magazine and came very close, but he'd brought no extra ammo. If he had, I'm sure one more mag would've been enough for him to hit it.

His eyes opened ("I didn't think the bullets would go that far!") he now has no excuse to miss at 10-25 yds now.

If you have the opportunity, try shooting your handgun, ANY handgun, at longer ranges. You just might be surprised at what you can do.

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/11/13/3ynubu2y.jpg

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mavracer
November 12, 2012, 12:28 PM
His eyes opened ("I didn't think the bullets would go that far!")
that's kinda scary and he's not alone with that thought.

bikerdoc
November 12, 2012, 01:14 PM
Good work Dave. quite satisfying to here.

ClickClickD'oh
November 12, 2012, 01:20 PM
If you have the opportunity, try shooting your handgun, ANY handgun, at longer ranges. You just might be surprised at what you can do.

An excellent drill that I've seen in several classes. Backing the students up to 100 yards really helps when you bring it back in close.

kwhi43@kc.rr.com
November 12, 2012, 01:31 PM
We have a 100 yd 10 shot pistol match at the NMLRA National shoot at
Friendship Ind. Wife won it back about 1992. Standing using one hand.
Score 78.This on a NRA standard pistol target. Her group was about a foot
in dia. This shooting round ball and Black Powder.

osprey176
November 12, 2012, 02:00 PM
I received a similar lesson many years ago.My buddy and I were attempting to sight in a surplus mauser,his first centerfire,with little luck.After shooting all his ammo under the watchful eyes of a couple "old guys",we started to leave.One of the "old guys" drew a Model 10 snubbie and proceded to bounce a tin can next to our 100 yard target with consecutive shots.As we stared,mouths agape,he reloaded,chuckled,and started bouncing the can again.All at 100 yards.A short time later,I ran into the "old guy" at another clay pit,and we started talking.He was a 27 year retired Army vet,named Frank Pearse.We soon became very close friends and I learned much more about shooting,and life in general from this true gentleman who was my father's age.We shared many hunting and fishing trips together,and countless trips to the clay pit.We lost Frank about ten years ago to cancer,but the lessons I learned from him have been passed down to my kids,and anyone else I can.

VA27
November 12, 2012, 02:03 PM
Very few things more satisfying than seeing a student 'find' his front sight. Good job!

osprey176
November 12, 2012, 02:07 PM
I received a similar lesson many years ago.My buddy and I were attempting to sight in a surplus mauser,his first centerfire,with little luck.After shooting all his ammo under the watchful eyes of a couple "old guys",we started to leave.One of the "old guys" drew a Model 10 snubbie and proceded to bounce a tin can next to our 100 yard target with consecutive shots.As we stared,mouths agape,he reloaded,chuckled,and started bouncing the can again.All at 100 yards.A short time later,I ran into the "old guy" at another clay pit,and we started talking.He was a 27 year retired Army vet,named Frank Pearse.We soon became very close friends and I learned much more about shooting,and life in general from this true gentleman who was my father's age.We shared many hunting and fishing trips together,and countless trips to the clay pit.We lost Frank about ten years ago to cancer,but the lessons I learned from him have been passed down to my kids,and anyone else I can.

coolluke01
November 12, 2012, 02:17 PM
This has become one of my favorite things to do with handguns. We don't have any steel at the 100 yard range, so I have to use paper there. The 200 yard range has steel and that is a great challenge.

I didn't think this was really possible earlier this summer. Then I saw someone shoot a bowling pin at 100 yards. Since then I have seen that as a challenge.

I tried that shot this last summer. Got it on my first try!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIQtqIEX1W4&feature=share&list=UUBK7LEa6jcmFKuDfeMlEgOA

Cesiumsponge
November 12, 2012, 02:21 PM
Elmer Keith wrote that they routinely shot 300+ yards with their wheelguns. I've only taken my sidearm to 50 yards and it definitely forces everyone to focus on fundamentals.

David E
November 12, 2012, 03:21 PM
Some self righteous folks would call us all "Tactards" for shooting handguns at 100 yds, but you guys know that it's fun, do-able and requires proper focus and execution of the basics.

What's wrong with any of that?

Hangingrock
November 12, 2012, 03:44 PM
Quotation taken from Smith & Wesson advertisement: It is the revolver used by the famous “long shooters” of Kentucky and by the greatest shot of all – Captain A.H. Hardy. With it he keeps his shots in the Army silhouette target at 300 yards! (Model Military & Police 38 Special)

aarondhgraham
November 12, 2012, 03:51 PM
I read another post at The Firing Line,,,
This was about long distance handgun shooting.

So next trip I used my 4" Model 63 at 100 yards.

The target was a 16" circle,,,
From a bench using a range bag as a support,,,
I put 17 out of 24 shots into that 16" circle and felt good doing it. :neener:

It's not that difficult,,,
We've just convinced ourselves that it's too hard.

Aarond

.

David E
November 12, 2012, 03:58 PM
I once shot a cardboard IPSC target at 50 yds using my .25 Beretta Model 20

I couldn't spot the misses and didn't know when I hit the paper, but it had 4-5 hits (can't recall which now) out of the 9 I fired.

But I've been called a liar most times I recount the incident by folks who've never even tried it.

Now, I'm inclined to take it to the 100 yd range next time....

Remllez
November 12, 2012, 03:58 PM
Good on ya David...he may just pass that lesson on to someone one day!

22-rimfire
November 12, 2012, 11:10 PM
I may have to try that approach. More than anything, you have to teach fundimentals and the shooter has to develop confidence that they can and will shoot well.

First I am going to teach myself or at least refresh my memory. :D

27hand
November 12, 2012, 11:23 PM
I was at a Turkey shoot quite a few years ago. Myself and a retired chief of police from a local municipality were waiting for the other shooters. The only targets up were at the 100 yd line.

I asked him if he minded that I throw a few rounds down range at the targets. His response was that I was just throwing away money as it would be next to impossible to hit with my Glock 23. He manned the spotting scope and was amazed that I hit all my rounds into the target.

I told him it wasn't actually that hard with proper sight alignment and trigger manipulation.

He had his duty weapon, a Sigma .40 and with a couple mags was also making hits. Before that, he didn't think it possible.

David E
November 13, 2012, 12:14 AM
Before that, he didn't think it possible.

And there it is...most people don't think it's possible. Or, if they see it done, think it was either a fluke or the shooter has practiced the feat many times.

All of that goes away when THEY make the hit within relatively few shots.

Ehtereon11B
November 13, 2012, 12:54 AM
Yup. I couldn't believe how accurate my commemartive 1911 was when I shot it the first, last and only time. Tried it at 7 and 15. Spot on. 50 was the same story. 100 and I was putting a .45 right where I aimed. Might buy another of the same model just so I don't wear out my nice one.

22-rimfire
November 13, 2012, 09:26 AM
If you hunt with a handgun, you will shoot at 100 yds in all probability. It's fun. It also demonstrates how poorly many of us really shoot and it is often because we don't pay attention to the fundamentals as closely as we should.

David E
November 13, 2012, 09:58 AM
If you hunt with a handgun, you will shoot at 100 yds in all probability. It's fun. It also demonstrates how poorly many of us really shoot and it is often because we don't pay attention to the fundamentals as closely as we should.

Which is one reason I took him to the long range bay.

A couple weeks earlier, he was yanking the rounds completely off the target placed at 20 yds.

Now, of course, he has no excuse to miss anything closer than 100.

Vern Humphrey
November 13, 2012, 01:33 PM
I do a bit of shooting with my .45 Colt handguns.

Think of the tops of the rear and front sights as a dashed line "- - -". For .45 Colt zeroed at 50 yards, you'll be about 6" low at 100 yards. To allow for drop you don't aim over the target -- because you can no longer see it if you do that. Instead, you break that dashed line "_ - _" If the break is just noticeable, that's the right hold for 100 yards. Noticeable and a bit more is 125 yards.

If you have a red insert, as some guns do, use the top of the insert for 150, like this "- _ -". So the top of the red is noticeably and bit more below the rear sight tops. Just a bit below is around 165, even is around 175, and a bit high is 185.

coolluke01
November 13, 2012, 05:40 PM
I think the biggest reason people don't think a handgun is capable of 100 yard shooting, is that they think the barrel is too short. Many still think accuracy comes from a long barrel and that short barrels are inherently inaccurate.

I explain that a longer barrel gives you a longer sight radius and more velocity but not accuracy.

While shooting 100 yards or longer from a rest with a handgun may be seen as possible, shooting off hand with one is "impossible". This is what I like to do the most! You feel like you really did something skillful when you shoot a 18"x24" steel target with a subcompact at 200 yards, off hand. Sub MOA off a bench with a rifle just isn't as impressive to me. Not that I'm an expert rifleman or anything. It's just cool to see a weapon pushed to it's limits and do so with no aids or crutches.

David E
November 14, 2012, 02:26 AM
Some of the myth that a bullet can't hit anything past 15-25 yds stems from the movies.

In the Eastwood classic, "For a Few Dollars More," Clint and Lee Van Cleef have it out in the street at High Midnight. Clint shoots Lee's hat off his head, sending it down the street. Each time Lee tries to pick it up, Clint shoots it again, sending the hat further away each time. Until it's about 6 feet too far for Clint's bullets to hit. Never mind the loud ricochet sound effect indicating the bullet still had plenty of velocity to spare.

So, do you believe its possible or not to hit with a handgun at longer range on purpose? It's hit or myth.......

hq
November 14, 2012, 04:35 AM
If you hunt with a handgun, you will shoot at 100 yds in all probability. It's fun. It also demonstrates how poorly many of us really shoot and it is often because we don't pay attention to the fundamentals as closely as we should.

Coming from silhouette background, the myth of handguns being solely short distance weapons is amusing. All too often you see people practicing at 15 yards or even less, shooting 8" groups. There's nothing wrong with familiarizing yourself with your handgun, quite the opposite, but I'd imagine that a combination of Bisley pace and IPSC accuracy can't feel very challenging for long.

I picked up handgun hunting a few years ago only now I've realized that ability to hit targets consistently and accurately at longer ranges is a very important and rewarding skill to learn. You can't get away with sloppy technique or poor sight picture. I'm not nearly as good at it as I'd like to be, but 100-150m / 110-165yd range doesn't feel intimidating anymore. I once thought that'd require creedmore position or equivalent, and a silhouette race gun. It's amazing what a stock 6" Anaconda can do when the shooter puts some effort in actually trying to hit the targets.

You really have to respect pistol competition shooters of early 20th century when 100 yards was the norm and longer shooting distances anything but unheard of.

C5rider
November 14, 2012, 06:05 AM
Like many hobbies I've been involved with, I think there is a certain thought where, "THIS is what I'm interested in. THIS is what's important to ME!"

I think we would all do well if those short-sighted (no offense intended) shooters try their hand at really reaching out there and touching something. AND, if those "wood and steel" enthusiasts actually pick up something with an adjustable stock once or twice.

It's better to be a community than to be :fire::cuss::banghead: at each other. Think of it like a breath mint, if somebody offers it to you, TAKE IT! :D

Good on you David!

Pete D.
November 14, 2012, 07:29 AM
Here's a pic on the subject. Before leaving the range one day.....a rifle day....I took the Glock 36 out and shot the magazine out at the 100 yard backer. Six shots....Wish that I could find the sixth but five of them are here.

http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr287/PeteDoyle/57ironsights100yds.jpg

Here's another. Same gun, though I took ten shots. I apologize for the crummy photo of a much shot target. The eight holes that are visible in the black, not taped over, are all from the G36.
http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr287/PeteDoyle/Glock36at100yards.jpg

mbopp
November 14, 2012, 07:32 AM
When I shot IHMSA eons ago my personal best was 9 turkeys at 150 yards (and I knew I missed the last on as soon as I sent it.) Ruger 44SBH, iron sights. On occasion I'd tag rams at 200 yards.
The first time I shot IHMSA I used a 4" M-19 and tagged a few pigs at 100 yards.

PBR Streetgang
November 14, 2012, 07:33 AM
There is a book out there called "Fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting"by Ed McGivern ,where he was shooting man-sized targets at 500 yards with a .357 and hitting the target somewhere about 75% of the time .
All of his shooting was documented by law enforcement or military people.

This book is a great read for all handgun shooters.

StrawHat
November 14, 2012, 01:20 PM
There is a book out there called "Fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting"by Ed McGivern ,where he was shooting man-sized targets at 500 yards with a .357 and hitting the target somewhere about 75% of the time .
All of his shooting was documented by law enforcement or military people.

This book is a great read for all handgun shooters.
Somewhere in that book is a quote from McGivern that goes something like ...with a 357 I would feel comfortable going against a rifleman out to 500 yards and be sure of getting on target first... Not bad!

MCgunner
November 14, 2012, 01:30 PM
100 yards is only half way there on IHMSA rams. :D

David E
November 14, 2012, 04:22 PM
100 yards is only half way there on IHMSA rams. :D

Doubt too many of those shooters are using a nearly sightless .25 acp pocket auto.

MCgunner
November 14, 2012, 04:31 PM
No, true enough. Only .25 I ever had was an RG. Couldn't hit squat past handshake range, but it was a little POS. I can hit quite consistently with my snubby .38 at 100 yards on a 14" gong target. We used to have an old blind flange hanging out on the 100 yard range, but it got all shot up by rifles eventually. I just like to plink, shoot and hear something go "clang" when I score. I never thought of it as serious practice.

I always used the Elmer Keith method to hold over.

David E
November 14, 2012, 10:26 PM
I have a pocket .22 that doesn't stabilize the projectiles, so I really can "curve the bullet" with that little gem.

Cee Zee
November 14, 2012, 10:44 PM
I had a .25 that was good to about 60 yards with a 2" barrel on it. It freaked some people completely including me at first.

I've seen people tell me I was an idiot for trying to shoot 25 yards with a handgun. First time I went to my gun range and asked if I could move the target back some because they were all shooting at 7 yards (yep - 7). I got a bunch of chuckles and some joker mouthing off about wasting ammo but he did it when I had my back turned.

They weren't laughing so much when I dinged the steel time after time after time. Heck I even drew a crowd which really freaked me out. I wondered what the heck was wrong with the shooters there to be honest. They even rounded up the range master to do an informal shoot against me and we were pretty evenly matched at 25 yards with both of us rarely missing. I just wonder what they would think if we went to the rifle range and I shot 175 yards and hit a target just a little bigger than the one we were shooting at.

Sometimes people get a mental block because they "think" it can't be done. When someone shows them it can suddenly they start shooting much better too. Guns are simple things really. If you mind the basics you can hit what you aim at.

sawdeanz
November 14, 2012, 11:25 PM
From a practical standpoint: How does one aim for this? Above the target? How high? I don't want to go to the range and shoot over the berm or something dangerous.

David E
November 14, 2012, 11:38 PM
From a practical standpoint: How does one aim for this? Above the target? How high? I don't want to go to the range and shoot over the berm or something dangerous.

It depends on the gun and caliber.

As I said previously, it really helps a lot if you can spot your misses.

I was surprised that the little .25 didn't require much holdover, I just aimed for the upper 1/3 of the target.

If possible, work the target back, say, 25 yds at a time, holding dead center, noting where the group forms. Adjust your hold accordingly.

Cee Zee
November 15, 2012, 12:42 AM
As I said previously, it really helps a lot if you can spot your misses.

If possible, work the target back, say, 25 yds at a time, holding dead center, noting where the group forms. Adjust your hold accordingly.

What he said. It's just a matter of working it out for every gun at every range with every type of ammo you're using. With practice you can work out the hold over with a single shot. You aim at dead center and see how far your bullet drops. Then you just aim that much higher on the second shot. It's that simple. Of course getting really good with a particular gun requires that you practice enough to know what the hold over should be at about every distance. You may not get it perfect but you can sure get close on the first shot if you've put in the time to know how much your bullet is going to drop at a given distance. I like to limit how many guns I shoot a lot because I want to be able to remember details like these. It's harder when you start trying to remember a whole bunch of guns and how they shoot. ou also need to learn how the wind affects a particular bullet too if you're shooting very far at all. I try to limit myself to a couple of handguns to shoot at longer distances. I generally shoot my Sig P220 for 50 yard groups and past that I shoot my S&W 629 with the 8 3/8" barrel. That thing will reach out there pretty far before the bullets start to stray a lot. I can get about 175 yards from it but others may have a better load they use that will give them even more distance. I still haven't found that magic bullet for 200 yards with that revolver. I shoot 240 gr. Hornady LEVERevolution to get out to 175 yards. The spitzer bullet shape seems to give me a little more distance but there could be better ammo out there for long distance shooting. I'm no expert on the subject.

coolluke01
November 15, 2012, 12:47 AM
It's also better to hold the front sight on the target and lower rear sight to expose more of the front. Find a point on the front sight to gauge the rear on. This way you won't be holding in space above the target, but will have the front sight on the target with the rear lowered.
This is a more consistent way to shoot long distance. I held my 9mm near the top of a bowling pin at 100 yards and got a hit.
The steel plate at 200 yards I hold just over half way down the front sight with my glock 26 and 34.

Cee Zee
November 15, 2012, 12:52 AM
It's also better to hold the front sight on the target and lower rear sight to expose more of the front.

Good advice but I learned to do it the wrong way and I've stuck with it for whatever reason. I have seen people hold their revolvers upside down so they can get a better view of the holdover too. It seems to work very well if you can hang on to the gun.

1911 guy
November 15, 2012, 01:11 AM
I use long range handgun shooting to force myself to maintain fundamentals. I'm not likely to need a .45 at 100 yards, but it sure makes hitting closer a lot easier.

Pete D.
November 15, 2012, 07:51 AM
I use long range handgun shooting to force myself to maintain fundamentals. I'm not likely to need a .45 at 100 yards, but it sure makes hitting closer a lot easier.

+1 about that. The closest that I ever get to a target during practice (except for the .25 and the .32) is indoors at 50 ft. My feeling for that is as above. If I can hit what I am aiming at at 17 yards, 25, 50, 100 yards.....then I can hit it at three or seven.
I surely do have more off the paper at 100 than at three.
Pete

M2 Carbine
November 15, 2012, 10:18 AM
One of my favorite things is shooting small size handguns at steel, at a little distance, mostly 52 yards. Standing, two hands.
I like using the small guns, like S&W 38 J Frames.
Just yesterday I was shooting a Ruger SR22.

My range is 115 yards but that's a little far for such guns as the Micro Desert Eagle.:)
http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x464/Bell-helicopter-407/MDEat50yards.jpg

hentown
November 15, 2012, 06:51 PM
I've been shooting my handguns @ 100 yds. for years, including my old Colt Woodsman.

kbbailey
November 15, 2012, 09:12 PM
My 7.5" .45COLT Blackhawk is sighted in for 70 yds. It will easily do minute of paper plate off a rest. It will go deer hunting with me in the morning.

M2 Carbine
November 15, 2012, 09:38 PM
From a practical standpoint: How does one aim for this? Above the target? How high? I don't want to go to the range and shoot over the berm or something dangerous.
http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x464/Bell-helicopter-407/sightpicture3.jpg

shafter
November 16, 2012, 10:33 AM
In the Eastwood classic, "For a Few Dollars More," Clint and Lee Van Cleef have it out in the street at High Midnight. Clint shoots Lee's hat off his head, sending it down the street. Each time Lee tries to pick it up, Clint shoots it again, sending the hat further away each time. Until it's about 6 feet too far for Clint's bullets to hit. Never mind the loud ricochet sound effect indicating the bullet still had plenty of velocity to spare.


I was just watching that movie and I noticed that even when he was shooting at the hat while it was high in the air it still richoched!!!! Must have been a really hard hat!

hq
November 16, 2012, 11:11 AM
Had to give this another try today, with a regular .40 1911. With some concentration it wasn't difficult to hit IPSC target @110 yards, offhand. Sighted in for 25 yards I was about 14" low at 110, group was about a foot in diameter with 15+15 shots, two shots were off the target. Much easier than I remembered.

Vern Humphrey
November 16, 2012, 04:12 PM
I've been shooting my handguns @ 100 yds. for years, including my old Colt Woodsman
A while back, I shot a feral dog that was hanging around my pasture at over 80 yards with my Woodsman.

Cee Zee
November 16, 2012, 06:08 PM
Must have been a really hard hat!

It's an OSHA thing. They take safety seriously. ;)

As for the purpose of shooting long distances for me it's about "aim small, miss small" mostly. If you know what a gun feels like when you're aiming a handgun at something over 100 yards away you will know how it feels when you're aimed at something 5 yards away really well. It makes point shooting almost automatic but almost isn't good enough. I still practice point shooting sometimes. I do it with a laser mounted on a pistol for getting in a lot of repetitions. But I still practice with the real thing fairly often. You want that SD shot to be automatically on target almost.

But there's also the fact I might need to hunt food with a pistol in some far fetched scenario. It does happen although not often. I rarely get way out in the boondocks these days but a few years ago I was doing it almost daily on my ATV. I rode alone (yeah I know but I was careful and I'm still alive) so if I broke down I was on my own. The difference between going hungry and having coon on a spit is significant. Rabbit is even better but I would take what I could get after a day or two of going hungry. And yes I got that far out on an ATV. Some places would have required a week's hike to get out in fact. 30-40 miles out in the mountains is no easy thing. If I can nail something to eat you can bet I'm gonna do just that. I kept survival gear with me all the time including water (you can carry a lot of stuff on an ATV) and part of that gear was a handgun I could use for getting lunch. I generally had one that had to double as a SD weapon too and long guns are hard to carry on an ATV without filling them with mud at least where I come from anyway. So I ended up with a large caliber (.45 usually) handgun that was accurate enough at 50 yards to nail a rabbit. Sure there may not be a lot of rabbit left after being shot by a .45 ACP but every little bit helps.

hentown
November 16, 2012, 07:19 PM
The sight pic that M2Carbine posted is the Elmer Keith method of shooting @ distance, and it's what I use. It's nonsensical to try to hold over in space, losing sight of the target.

David E
November 16, 2012, 10:18 PM
Went back to the range today and shot 4 handguns at 100 yds.

They were:

25 ACP Ortgies. (previously pictured)

Beretta Model 20 in .25 ACP
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/11/18/ameqequm.jpg

Sterling pocket auto in .22 LR
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/11/18/qabe3aga.jpg

Jennings J-22 in .22 LR
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/11/18/qa8amaqu.jpg

My student and I BOTH were able to hit the 100 yd steel target with ALL the pocket guns.

The .22's weren't very reliable, but we made the hits. I wasn't optimistic about them at the beginning, but they proved up to the task.

I took two shots to hit with the Beretta, same as the Ortgies. The .25's worked flawlessly.

David E
November 17, 2012, 06:27 PM
Check out this video on YouTube:http://youtu.be/tEpgYsPJrvg

It shows, albeit poorly, me making the hit on the 100 yd steel target. The guy that took the video edited out my first shot at it, which landed right next to it.

kingcheese
November 17, 2012, 10:44 PM
I witnessed a 275yard pistol shot from a 1911, i was impressed

k_dawg
November 18, 2012, 11:39 AM
For me, longer range with 'normal' pistol calibers depends alot on if there is something above the target which I can aim at. e.g. precise hold over. 230gr .45 acp is around 7" at 100 yards.

Now, my 460SVX with 4x scope I sight in @ 100 yards.

David E
November 18, 2012, 01:47 PM
For me, longer range with 'normal' pistol calibers depends alot on if there is something above the target which I can aim at. e.g. precise hold over. 230gr .45 acp is around 7" at 100 yds

Sounds like you're not doing it the better way of raising the front sight and perching the target on top.

Vern Humphrey
November 18, 2012, 05:52 PM
For me, longer range with 'normal' pistol calibers depends alot on if there is something above the target which I can aim at. e.g. precise hold over. 230gr .45 acp is around 7" at 100 yards.
With scoped weapons you can hold over. With iron sighted handguns, you hold up more front sight.

Look at it like this, the distance between rear and front sight on an M1911 is about 6". There are 300 feet in a hundred yards, and each foot is 12 inches. That means the ratio between sight radius and range is 1:600.

In other words, if you held up an inch more front sight, your bullet would impact 600 inches (50 feet) higher at 100 yards. If you held up a mere 0.01" of front sight, the bullet would impact 6" higher -- which is almost exactly what you want.

To visualize 0.01", think of the sights as a dashed line "---". The two ends of the line are the tops of the rear sight, the center dash is the top of the front sight. Now, simply hold the front sight so the line doesn't look quite straight anymore -- sort of like this, but much more subtle, "_ - _". That's a 0.01" over hold, and it will put you right on at 100 yards.

MikePGS
November 18, 2012, 08:26 PM
Just wanted to say this is a great thread, a lot of good advice from people I have a lot of respect for. Keep it coming :D

kingcheese
November 18, 2012, 09:55 PM
Can you describe how to raise the front sight? Do you still use the rear sight?

AnthonyRSS
November 18, 2012, 10:19 PM
I shot my 4" 1911 at the 200yrd rock we have set up. Its about silhouette size. Was making a few hits every mag. Can hit it a little better with my High Standard .22. My problem is knowing where I miss.

David E
November 18, 2012, 10:57 PM
Can you describe how to raise the front sight? Do you still use the rear sight?

Post #44 shows the technique perfectly.

How much sight is above the rear depends on range, gun and load.

kingcheese
November 19, 2012, 07:13 AM
Ok, so its something that if i used the same load, and the same gun, i could mark the front sight if i wanted to

hentown
November 19, 2012, 08:14 AM
For me, longer range with 'normal' pistol calibers depends alot on if there is something above the target which I can aim at. e.g. precise hold over. 230gr .45 acp is around 7" at 100 yards.


Try the proven Elmer Keith method that's mentioned several times in this thread.

mavracer
November 19, 2012, 09:37 AM
Ok, so its something that if i used the same load, and the same gun, i could mark the front sight if i wanted to
Absolutely. Some use gold or brass lines IE this one by Clements custom guns
http://www.clementscustomguns.com/images/goldbarfrontsight.jpg

kingcheese
November 19, 2012, 11:35 AM
Cool

Vern Humphrey
November 19, 2012, 12:31 PM
Absolutely. Some use gold or brass lines IE this one by Clements custom guns
Actually, I expect that works for many elevations. With a red insert, I like "broken line", "More broken line", then "same distance above red insert", "broken line above red insert", "level with red insert" and so on. This breaks the elevations down into approximately 0.01" increments, or about 6" per increment at 100 yards.

Japle
November 20, 2012, 03:43 PM
Playing with the Wichita today at the range. It’s chambered for the 7R cartridge (30-30 necked to 7mm with a modified shoulder). I was sighting it in. The rings had to be replaced. The old ones were cheap Weaver rings that weren’t holding zero. I swapped them out for a set of Leupold rings.

The load was a surplus 139 gr steel FMJ pulled from who-knows-what-round over 22.5 gr of H322, producing 1673 fps. I could load a lot hotter than that, but there’s no reason for it.

Not the best photo. The top group is 1 3/8” and the bottom one is 1 1/8” I pulled the shot at 8:00. The other four are in 5/8”

Shot at 50 yds from a rest.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y145/Japle/Guns/50ydswscope.jpg

k_dawg
November 20, 2012, 07:44 PM
I choose not to use the traditional Elmer Keith method. That conflates with proper sighting for defensive purposes.

I find maintaining proper sighting and utalizing hold over to be more effective ( for me ) as well as creating a confused muscle memory of training.

David E
November 20, 2012, 08:39 PM
I choose not to use the traditional Elmer Keith method. That conflates with proper sighting for defensive purposes.


Does "proper sighting for defensive purposes" include totally covering up your target with your gun?

It's almost like saying "I don't shoot revolvers, as it'll conflate with semi-autos."

That said, do what works best for you.

Vern Humphrey
November 20, 2012, 09:43 PM
I find maintaining proper sighting and utalizing hold over to be more effective ( for me ) as well as creating a confused muscle memory of training.
How do you estimate hold over when you can't see the target?

When you hold over with iron sights, the sights block out the target -- as one poster on this thread has already commented.

StrawHat
November 21, 2012, 07:35 AM
...I choose not to use the traditional Elmer Keith method. That conflates with proper sighting for defensive purposes...


Shooting at one hundred yards ...and defensive shooting. Two entirely different disciplines. More than muscle confusion!

David E
November 21, 2012, 09:38 AM
But it is possible to take a longer shot than the indoor range allows.

In my department, one of the guys had to take an 85 yd shot at a badguy shooting at other officers. He hit him, ending the shooting.

I wonder how he could've made the hit if he completely covered up the target with his gun.

Cee Zee
November 21, 2012, 02:54 PM
What do you do with a gun that is designed to have the target behind the front sight David E? There are lots of them around. Too many people think the sights are just off when they see that method employed but those people are wrong. And besides that every gun is different and every cartridge is different. What happens when you switch from a very fast, flat shooting cartridge and bullet to one that shoots slow and drops a good bit? You do understand you have to aim higher with the second gun, right? What happens when you still can't get enough holdover by just changing the sight picture? My S&W 629 shoots perfect at close range using the sight picture someone said was an Elmer Keith drawing. It also shoots slightly to the right of where the sights aim. If I waited around to find a perfectly aimed pistol I'd be waiting a long time. In the meantime I can hit what I want to shoot at much longer distances than the system you describe can compensate for. I can hit a man size target at 175 yards with the S&W I mentioned. And trust me I have to hold over a good bit to do it. How do I keep my eyes on the target? That's why we have two eyes. Well that's one reason anyway. I can tell if my target has moved with my off eye when shooting distances like that.

I described a method of shooting very long distances with revolvers earlier. It involves shooting the handgun upside down so the sights can still be used and the target can still be seen. The longest handgun shots I've ever seen were done using that method. I believe it was Bob Munden that was doing it. I saw it on tv a few years back.

There are many methods for aiming a gun friend. If I limited myself to a single method or two I would find I couldn't hit the target nearly as often. I've picked up other people's handguns and fired them once to find how the sights aimed then hit a very small target from a long distance on the second shot. Those people had tried all day to hit that target. I hit it on the second shot. The difference was they were determined to aim the way the book says to aim. I aimed according to how the gun shot. That's why I hit the target and they didn't. I was actually called to come out and demonstrate how to shoot a handgun that day. The people I was demonstrating for nearly fell off their feet when I hit the bottom of that pop can at 40 yards on the second shot. I didn't think it was a particularly hard shot.

There's more than one way to skin a cat my friend. If you can find a pistol that aims perfectly that's great. But I have several handguns that aim the way I described earlier where the target is actually covered by the front blade. If I didn't shoot them accordingly I'd never hit anything with them. But I do hit things quite often using those handguns. In fact I was just knocking a pop can around yesterday using my XDm .40 by using the method of blocking out the target with the front blade. If I aimed it with the blade at the bottom of the notch I would have missed badly.

coolluke01
November 21, 2012, 05:00 PM
Video or it didn't happen.

You have lots of words and no proof and very little understanding.

That being said, if that's what you like and it works fine. But you can't say there isn't a better or right way simply because you claim to have some success with your way.
There is a better way to do this. It has been explained and the reasons for it have been shown.

This switching from different calibers and point of impact in relation to point of aim do not change how one should aim for long range shooting.
The arbitrary way you hold over in midair will change from gun to gun and caliber to caliber.

David E
November 21, 2012, 05:04 PM
Not sure what Cee Zee's point is.

Sure, there are different ways to hold the sights. Some of those ways are stupid. Some work very well.

I prefer to utilize the methods that work best.

I made 100 yd hits using 4 nearly sightless pocket pistols, just to prove to my student it could be done. Even better, HE made hits with just a few shots with all the same guns, too, proving that with proper technique, it's not that difficult to hit a 100 yd target.

David E
November 21, 2012, 05:13 PM
My S&W 629 shoots slightly to the right of where the sights aim.

You do realize the rear sight is adjustable for windage....right?

Vern Humphrey
November 21, 2012, 08:54 PM
What do you do with a gun that is designed to have the target behind the front sight David E? There are lots of them around.
Which guns are designed to have the target behind the front sight?

You do understand you have to aim higher with the second gun, right? What happens when you still can't get enough holdover by just changing the sight picture?

Let's see. Suppose we measure from the back face of the rear sight to the back face of the front sight, and find the distance to be 6". The target is 100 yards (3600 inches) away. So the ratio of sight radius to target distance is 1:600. By holding up an inch of front sight, my shot will impact 600 inches (50 feet) higher at 100 yards.

I'm shooting a .45 Colt, zeroed for 50 yards. At 100 yards, with a normal hold, the bullet will impact 6" low. That means to put the bullet on target, I don't need to hold up an inch of front sight, or even a tenth of an inch. I only need to hold up a mere hundredth of an inch -- barely enough to see when the gun is held at arm's length.

If we move the target back to 200 yards, that one inch of front sight subtends 100 feet at the target. If I hold up a mere tenth of an inch of front sight, the bullet will impact 10 feet higher.

How am I not going to have enough holdover at any range short of a thousand yards?

My S&W 629 shoots perfect at close range using the sight picture someone said was an Elmer Keith drawing. It also shoots slightly to the right of where the sights aim. If I waited around to find a perfectly aimed pistol I'd be waiting a long time.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the S&W 629 have adjustable sights? Why wait for a "perfectly aimed" pistol? Just take a couple of clicks right windage!!

otasan56
November 22, 2012, 07:35 AM
Good shooting, sir.

Esoxchaser
November 22, 2012, 08:02 AM
My the 11 year old couldn't believe it when after a couple of mags he was consistently smacking a Do-All reactive target ball at 100 yards with his Ruger Mark III Hunter with the stock open vee sights. What really amused him was the lag time between pulling the trigger and the ball moving indicating impact.

David E
November 22, 2012, 11:07 AM
Great way to start them young!

budman46
November 28, 2012, 12:03 PM
i think most are so astonished at the idea of hitting with a handgun at 100+ yd distances that they forget bad habits; they concentrate on the basics. i let them shoot at a rock 110yds away in my river...splashes provide instant feedback! nobody has ever had a problem hitting the rock with a little practice.

Vern Humphrey
November 28, 2012, 02:34 PM
I have a pond steeply down hill from my house. The dam is about 135 yards from my usual shooting place.

And you're right about splashes -- it's easy to hit rocks, floating sticks and so on, even with a .22 at 100 yards or better when you can clearly see the bullet impact.

wanderinwalker
November 28, 2012, 05:12 PM
I love reading these threads, it confirms for me that I'm not the only one crazy enough to enjoy hitting things past 25-yards with a handgun! :evil:

One of my favorite things is to plink at the 100-yard steel plate at my range with one of my 4" .357s. Normally I shoot double-action and firing full-power ammunition hits are more common than misses. It doesn't take much difference in hold to land them on the plate either. I should try the 200-yd plate sometime; it's half the size of a tank though (it might actually BE armor plate even...).

The other thing I enjoy is putting up a paper IDPA silhouette at 50-yards to shoot at with any of my pistols or revolvers. Maybe this winter's goal will be to learn to make all A-hits consistently with one of the .357s. Challenge accepted!

Last thing: We used to have a steel plate at 100-yards on the rifle range that was maybe 2-feet across (I think, it was a while ago) and circular. I watched two young guys (older than me at the time) hitting it some from the bench with their scoped deer rifles, missing a couple. They high-fived each other. I stepped up and dropped 8 of 10 on it with my Glock 17, then walked away. :D

Edited: removed post title.

murf
November 28, 2012, 11:22 PM
shooting at 100 yards is a part of my load testing. 148 grain hollow-base wadcutters out of my 357 mag are super accurate at 50 yards and scattergun accurate at 100.

load up the 180 grain truncated cone bullets and accuracy is good from muzzle to 100 yards and beyond.

always nice to know what your load will do at 25, 50, 75, and 100 yards. if the load is good to 100 yards, it should be good at most any distance beyond that.

murf

WaywardSon
November 29, 2012, 08:25 AM
It is interesting what many new shooters consider good shooting...or long distance. I no longer shoot bullseye, or any other competitive discipline...my interest now is handgun hunting and most of my shooting is done at 25 & 50 yards. A little over a year ago I decided to get my CCW permit. The range portion of the class was shot on the standard police silhouette target at 7 yards I think. Hadn't shot at anything that close in forever. Maybe ever.

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj68/WaywardSon01/Toys/IMG_3425.jpg

I don't consider this particularly good shooting given the distance. The gun was my 4" 686...got bored and started shooting double action:) What amazed me was that many folks were having trouble keeping their shots in the black! Not all of them were newbies either. I can only attribute that to lack of training and proper practice.

And yes, since you asked...I did kill a couple of deer this year with my Ruger SBH in .44 Mag. First deer with a handgun & both inside 40 yds.

The real fun IS in shooting at longer distances...especially if you have a background where you can see your shots landing. There is a lot of good advice in this thread on sight picture and technique. Hopefully most will put it to use.

jmorris
November 29, 2012, 08:30 AM
I have a 5.5" ruger MII with a 1.5 x scope that will put 10 into 3.5" @ 100.

Ankeny
November 29, 2012, 09:26 AM
Yesterday was a perfect day for shooting. When I was finished shooting steel with my rifles, I decided to shoot a couple of my handguns. Shooting a steel USPSA (metric) target at 100 yards really makes a guy watch the fundamentals. After a little warm up I was doing sub 2 second draws and .5 second splits.

Vern Humphrey
November 29, 2012, 09:41 AM
shooting at 100 yards is a part of my load testing. 148 grain hollow-base wadcutters out of my 357 mag are super accurate at 50 yards and scattergun accurate at 100.

load up the 180 grain truncated cone bullets and accuracy is good from muzzle to 100 yards and beyond.

always nice to know what your load will do at 25, 50, 75, and 100 yards. if the load is good to 100 yards, it should be good at most any distance beyond that.
Wad cutters are "aerodynamically challenged" and are poor choices for long range shooting -- I like a semi-wadcutter or Keith type bullet, although my current .45 bullet is a Lee 452-255-RF which does quite well out to 135 yards, which is my usual "long" range.

WaywardSon
November 29, 2012, 09:47 AM
I have a 5.5" ruger MII with a 1.5 x scope that will put 10 into 3.5" @ 100.
While I have used them in the past, and they certainly make a difference...I do not currently have a scope on any of my handguns. No doubt my aging eyes would benefit from one...just hate to lose the ability to easily carry the weapon. I do have a red dot on one of my Ruger MKII's. They are a great aid...especially in teaching new shooters.

budman46
November 30, 2012, 07:16 PM
wayward,
nice d/a work at 7yds. i love long distance, too, but a cop pal told me, "5 yds it's self-defense; 100 yds...murder!" so, i have fun at distance with all my handguns, but do the close-up drills, too.

David E
November 30, 2012, 09:02 PM
but a cop pal told me, "5 yds it's self-defense; 100 yds...murder!"

Your cop pal is wrong.

I'm curious, what would he call 6 yds if only a maximum of 5 yds is "self defense?"

My old department had an incident that required an 85 yd shot on an active shooter. Murder?

The local PD had a 75 yd shot on an active shooter. Murder, also?

It depends on the situation, not the distance.

Old Fuff
November 30, 2012, 09:54 PM
I have to wonder if the forementioned police officer's shooting skill runs out at 5 yards. David E is absolutely right. It is the situation that should dictate the response, and distance is determined by the responder's ability. I have yet to read a statute concerning the use of deadly force that says anything about a specific limit on distance.

wanderinwalker
December 1, 2012, 11:57 AM
wayward,
nice d/a work at 7yds. i love long distance, too, but a cop pal told me, "5 yds it's self-defense; 100 yds...murder!" so, i have fun at distance with all my handguns, but do the close-up drills, too.

I love the "if it's more than XX feet it's murder" crowd. I was practicing with my 22/45 at 25-yards one day and a fellow shooting at a target at 30-feet or so hit me with that statement. I just shrugged and said "shooting squirrels, soda cans and pine cones isn't murder." He left me alone after that.

Seriously, a handgun can be used for more than just defending yourself from other people.

Old Fuff
December 1, 2012, 01:02 PM
… a cop pal told me, "5 yds it's self-defense; 100 yds...murder!"

As I understand it, the logic(?) behind this statement is that at 100 yards an assailant doesn’t represent a lethal threat that would represent justification for responding with deadly force. Under such circumstances a person could safely evade or retreat.

However if the attacker is armed with a firearm it should be considered that if one could hit them at whatever longer distance was involved, they in turn could do the same to you; and to evade or retreat you might have to expose yourself to the incoming fire.

As always, it depends on the situation and circumstances.

coolluke01
December 1, 2012, 04:46 PM
I think this falls under "don't underestimate your enemy" Many (including the 12 jurors) don't think a 100 yards with a handgun is reasonably possible. I for one would not feel safe in the slightest if those on this forum were looking to do me harm even from 100 yards with a handgun. It's not only possible but as proven here it's probable.
How would we know what the skill level of the shooter is? As has been said already, blanket statements are not profitable.

Having said that, we do need to be careful and try to see things through the eyes of those that will judge in the end. It is "common knowledge" that handguns are not capable of hitting anything farther than 50 feet. This is not an easy thing to overcome, and I doubt the Judge will allow you to take the jury out and teach them to shoot a handgun at 100 yards to prove it.

David E
December 2, 2012, 12:03 AM
As far as juries go, one point I would make wouldn't be the skill of the shooter, but the capability of the bullet to travel that far with enough energy to kill.

Even the most inept shooter could get lucky.

budman46
December 4, 2012, 01:02 PM
i think my cop pal meant that shorter distances were normally viewed in a defensive light and longer were considered offensive...for civilians!

everything i've read over the years has impressed up me the fact that your life will be usually be quite complicated if you, a civilian, shoot someone fataly...even when acquitted in a criminal action civil actions can cost $$$...concensus is to run, run, run if possible. my cop pal concurs.

Vern Humphrey
December 4, 2012, 03:18 PM
i think my cop pal meant that shorter distances were normally viewed in a defensive light and longer were considered offensive...for civilians!

everything i've read over the years has impressed up me the fact that your life will be usually be quite complicated if you, a civilian, shoot someone fataly...even when acquitted in a criminal action civil actions can cost $$$...concensus is to run, run, run if possible. my cop pal concurs.
The solution is everyone should practice good citizenship and have their lawyers spayed or neutered.:evil:

hentown
December 5, 2012, 09:21 AM
I get my legal advice from real lawyers, not cops or gunrag-writers. :evil:

Rob G
December 5, 2012, 02:13 PM
Like many others have said this thread has confirmed that I am not totally crazy. My friends and I have access to some land that is large enough for us to have multiple shooting areas set up. On one of them we have a steel silhouette target that we can shoot at from as much as 400 yards. I love shooting it long range with handguns and with my favorite Kimber can go 8 for 8 at 150 yards.

And I do agree with what others have said, at that range it's all about the basics.

clamman
December 6, 2012, 12:29 PM
I can hit my 100 yard gong with my Ruger Mark II with ease.

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