Primers coming out of pockets?


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David4516
November 12, 2012, 01:22 PM
I loaded up a batch of .30-40 Krag, first time for this cartridge for me. I loaded it with 36.0 grains of IMR-3031, and 180gr bullets. I noticed that after firing in the majority of the cases the primers were coming out?

When I had loaded the rounds the primers were all flush with the brass, so this happened after firing.

Is this a sign of over-pressure? I am below the max loads shown in my reloading manuals. That said it's a 110 year old rifle so maybe I should reduce them more...

I was also planning on trying 220gr bullets, and maybe IMR 4350, or even H335 for powder. I think 4350 is my favorite rifle powder...

When I was shooting I didn't notice anything unusual, every appeared normal and it was very pleasant to shoot, especially compared to the .280 Remington I've been shooting lately. I really like the rifle and and hoping to have some fun reloading for it, but now I'm a little worried. Is this primer thing normal?

Thanks in advance for any info/advice...

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helotaxi
November 12, 2012, 02:00 PM
Looks like too light a load and generous headspace on the rifle.

ArchAngelCD
November 12, 2012, 02:11 PM
I agree, the first picture looks like a headspace problem, too light a load or both.

Since that round is marked 30-40 I'm guessing you are shooting an old rifle. If you don't know how to properly check headspace yourself I highly recommend you have a good gunsmith check it for you BEFORE you fire that rifle again. Safety first my friend! That is unless you know for sure the load is too light.

blarby
November 12, 2012, 02:27 PM
I'm guessing a combination of starting load data being underpressure, or a significant headspace issue- could very well be both.

Now that the brass is nice and fireformed, you could test that theory real easy.

Load two up, and fire away.

If its still backing primers out, its indeed a pressure issue- but something is letting it happen.

Taking a rifle of that vintage to a competent gunsmith to have it looked over before firing is never a bad idea.

barstoolguru
November 12, 2012, 03:16 PM
I always thought when you have a budging primmer it meant the load was too hot and needed to be dialed back a bit

ArchAngelCD
November 12, 2012, 03:27 PM
I always thought when you have a budging primmer it meant the load was too hot and needed to be dialed back a bit
That's not a "bulging" primer, that is a primer that has backed out of the pocket. Big difference...

918v
November 12, 2012, 03:38 PM
Headspace issue. You didn't set up the sizer die correctly.

GLOOB
November 12, 2012, 05:25 PM
Has to be headspace.

barstoolguru
November 12, 2012, 06:56 PM
two of you said head space so how does head space affect the primmer?

helotaxi
November 12, 2012, 07:08 PM
When the firing pin hits the primer, it shoves the case all the way forward in the chamber. When the powder ignites, the brass swells radially and sticks to the chamber wall. The pressure through the flash hole pushes the primer out until it contacts the bolt face. If the load is full pressure, the brass will now swell axially back to the bolt face and the primer gets reseated in the process.

In the case of these loads the pressure was not sufficient to fully expand the brass. The brass isn't even fully fire-formed.

gamestalker
November 12, 2012, 08:07 PM
In many instances, as long as the rifle is in good condition, head space can be compensated at the resizing die after the brass has been fire formed to that chamber. But it sure wouldn't hurt to have a competent smith iinspect it. It helps to know just how much additional head space your dealing with too.

GS

David4516
November 13, 2012, 01:06 PM
Ok one thing I forgot to mention is that this is new brass, and it may not have been resized. To be honest I couldn't remember if I had sized it or not, I put it in a bucket years ago and only just a few days ago go around to working with it again. This is because I've moved a couple of times over the last 5 years and this has caused some serious disruption to my reloading. It's hard to keep my stuff organized durring a move.

Anyway, I had assumed that I had already resized it, maybe that was a bad assumption. If this was new brass but not resized, could that explain this problem?

If it is a headspace issue, how does one fix that? Would the rifle require a new barrel?

Sorry if these are silly questions...

rcmodel
November 13, 2012, 01:31 PM
I always thought when you have a budging primmer it meant the load was too hot and needed to be dialed back a bit Just the opposite in fact.

As explained by others, you don't have enough pressure to slip or stretch the case in the chamber to re-seat the primers after they back out.

The 30-40 headspaces on the rim, not the shoulder.
So whether you sized them or not makes no difference with new brass.

You can make a difference by adjusting the sizing die so it headspaces off the shoulder.

But only with fire-formed cases that had enough pressure to expand the shoulder foreword and re-seat the primers in the first place.

Your 36.0 grain load is a starting load in Lyman #49
It gives only 31,300 CUP which is not enough to stretch the case and re-seat the primer.

MAX is 40.0 grains, and it gives only 38,700 CUP, which is less then a 30-30 Winchester.
I would not be afraid to up your load at least enough to re-seat the backed out primers.

rc

243winxb
November 13, 2012, 01:58 PM
Try a Neck Sizer Die http://www.midwayusa.com/product/116484/hornady-custom-grade-new-dimension-neck-sizer-die-30-caliber

David4516
November 13, 2012, 02:00 PM
Your 36.0 grain load is a starting load in Lyman #49
It gives only 31,300 CUP which is not enough to stretch the case and re-seat the primer

I'm finding alot of variation from one manual to the next for this cartridge. According to Speer and Hornady for example 36.0 gr is a mid-level load.

I just looked on the Hodgdon's reload center website and it doesn't list a starting load, but says that 38.0 gr is max.

I don't know who to trust when it comes to load data for this thing.

I normally don't work with IMR 3031 at all, but my dad gave me a half cans worth of it to exparament with. I was told that it was a good powder for .30-30 winchester and .30-40 krag so I decdied to try it out.

I still have about 25 or so loaded rounds with this receipe. Is it safe to shoot them? I assume yes, if what rcmodel says is corret then these should be VERY mild loads.

I have about 150 more cases that are primed and ready to be loaded. I'm thinking about using IMR 4350. Should I just load them up, shoot, and see what happens? Or should I visit a gunsmith before doing anything else at this point?

Feeling very confused. :uhoh:

Thanks for all the help/info so far, you guys are awesome!

243winxb
November 13, 2012, 02:15 PM
Stay with the 3031 as its a faster powder than 4350. The primer is not backed out a lot. It would have to be .010" or more above the case head & LEAKING GAS to worry me. Work up to the 38grs of 3031 with the 180gr. RC gave good advice.

ArchAngelCD
November 13, 2012, 07:53 PM
David4516,
When a powder manufacturer lists only the mac charge weight they are telling you not to reduce the load they are listing. Winchester is the one that usually does that with their Ball powders W748 and W760. This is the first time I noticed IMR doing that. It's usually a good idea to pay attention to what they tell you because there's usually a very good reason for telling us not to reduce the load.

I would NOT use 4350 in the 30-40 Krag. The 30-40 Krag is a low pressure round more in like with the 30-30 than the 30-06. Slow burning powders don't usually perform well at lower pressures. If you're not happy with IMR3031 I would suggest going with medium burn rate powders like IMR/H4895, IMR4064 or even IMR4320. You could probably do well with Varget too since it's in the same range.

Walkalong
November 14, 2012, 07:42 AM
That backed out primer isn't hurting a thing. In a revolver backed out primers could cause a problem, but not in your rifle.

Do like rcmodel suggested and up the charge a little. My .30-30 load with RL 15 matches factory velocity but the primers still tend to back out just a tiny little bit. Much less than yours. Hard to tell by looking.

Anyway, no need to worry, it is not from over pressure. With over pressure the primers would not be protruding from the primer pocket at all.

ole farmerbuck
November 14, 2012, 08:01 AM
My Savage .223 using CCI bench primers will swell out quite a bit. Other primers arent as bad. I'm using 28gr or 28.5 of BL-c2. I cant use my LNL progressive to deprime them being swelled too much.

David4516
November 14, 2012, 11:26 AM
I cant use my LNL progressive to deprime them being swelled too much

I didn't even think about that. How the heck am I going to deprime these things? I suspect that they won't fit back on the shell holder with the primers sticking out like that.

I have a Lee hand priming tool (think it's called 'autoprime'), wonder if I need to use it to pop the primers back into their pockets before running the cases through my press...

I would NOT use 4350 in the 30-40 Krag

I've had several people tell me that 4350 is good for this cartridge, including my Dad. His Krag will shoot sub MOA with 4350 and 180gr bullets (his rifle has a newer barrel, not the original millitary one). Actually seeing what he was able to do with his rifle is what inspired me to buy a Krag of my own. I don't expect mine to be this accurate (mine has orignal barrel), but maybe I'll luck out.

Also, checking the website again, they do list the IMR 4350 / 180gr combo (see attached screen capture). They don't show anything for the 220gr bullet, but my Hornady manual does, says 40gr of 4350 is the max load. Sounds like it will duplicate original military ammo specs, 220gr bullet, 40 grains of powder, and 2000FPS velocitiy.

If you're not happy with IMR3031 I would suggest going with medium burn rate powders like IMR/H4895, IMR4064 or even IMR4320

Didn't say I wasn't happy with 3031. Don't know if I'm happy yet or not, and might even need to buy another pound of it to mess around with before I'm sure. I have also considered trying IMR 4895, but my supply on this powder is low as well, I'm down to less than half a pound. I seem to have alot of random half-full cans of powder laying around. Enough to load up a few rounds here and there to exparament with, but not enough of anything to make a large batch. Not sure if anybody else ever has this problem...

It sounds like the majority of you think that I have low pressure and that I can safely increase my load and try again?

brickeyee
November 14, 2012, 03:55 PM
I didn't even think about that. How the heck am I going to deprime these things? I suspect that they won't fit back on the shell holder with the primers sticking out like that.

So seat them back deeper.

Wil Terry
November 14, 2012, 04:30 PM
Headspace issue. You didn't set up the sizer die correctly.
IMPOSSIBLE !!! It is a rimmed case.

243winxb
November 14, 2012, 09:06 PM
I've had several people tell me that 4350 is good for this cartridge, The low pressure/slow burn may not expand the neck on firing. This will give the bullets a better alignment to the bore. If the throat/leade is worn from a lot of use, accuracy will be better. No harm in giving it a go. I have seen a reloader use IMR 4350 in a 30-30. The first thing i noticed was the report on firing. Very strange sound, but the guy liked the loading.

918v
November 15, 2012, 10:15 AM
IMPOSSIBLE !!! It is a rimmed case.

You need to get some hands on experience with vintage military rifles. They were built with generous clearances to acommodate things like mud and sand in the action. Their chambers are so generous that full length sizing often results in .020" of headspace. The fact the case is rimmed has nothing to to with it as the relief cut for the rim is also generous. When reloading for rimmed rifle cartridges one should set the sizer to bump the shoulder just enough to allow the round to chamber, else you'll get case head separation within a couple of reloads.

918v
November 15, 2012, 10:38 AM
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/headspacestretch-1.gif

Walkalong
November 15, 2012, 11:05 AM
Many folks with those old rifles size the case to fit their chamber, as in head spacing on the shoulder, just like many folks do with belted bottle neck cases. We have seen this talked about here a good bit. Some of those old rifles have so much head space that is the only way to safely shoot them, short of the expense of fixing the head space.

brickeyee
November 15, 2012, 12:05 PM
Reload to use the shoulder if you want the cases to last more than a very few loadings (sometimes even the first reloading causes failure).

The original guns NEVER considered the idea of using the shells again.

They used a generous headspace and chamber to make sure function was 100% even in poor conditions.

SlamFire1
November 15, 2012, 05:16 PM
Donít sweat it. Your loads are low pressure.

About the first thing that happens when you ignite the primer is that the primer backs out of the pocket. Then the front of the case expands and grips the chamber walls. When pressure builds up the sidewalls stretch till the case head reaches the bolt face and stuffs the primer back in the pocket.

I found this out when I started lubing my M1 Garand and M1a cases. Cases that were fired lubed the primers were nicely rounded. Cases that were dry the primers were flat. Obviously combustion pressures were the same but with the lubed cases the primer and the case moved to the bolt face at the same rate. With the dry cases the primers were flattened because they were stuffed back into the pocket under pressure.

Now I do load development with lubed cases. When the primers finally flatten out I believe that I am really seeing high pressures instead of a false indication.

Sometimes you will have low enough charges that the sidewalls do not stretch. This is an example of 150 gr SMK with 47.0 IMR 4895 in a 30-06. This is a service rifle equivalent load, probably lower 40 Kpsia in some rifles. In this rifle the primers backed out.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/Reloading/150Sierra47-1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/Reloading/150Sierra47.jpg

RPRNY
February 4, 2013, 01:54 PM
I just popped over from another Krag thread in which this came up. My opinion, FWIW: First, that amount of primer setback is not dangerous. It is not ideal, but the breech face on a Krag is not going to deform from it. While the underpressure and headspace issues referenced above are at play, the supposition that resizing is an issue for a rimmed case is, at best, nitpicking. A more likely issue, though related, is thin rim on the Remington brass combined with somewhat overly generous room on the rim relief.

So, first, you need not be particularly concerned about the primer backing out slightly. On a straightwall case this is actually a good sign. In a bottleneck case, it suggests, as outlined above, a low, albeit not necessarily under, pressure load. You don't say whether these are cast or jacketed bullets. If jacketed, you can increase your charge of 3031 with 180 gr bulletr by increments up through say 38.5 grs well within safety parameters to see whether you get some case stretch that will stop the primer backing out. If you are going to IMR 4350 and a jacketed 220, again, up through 37.5 grs will be safe and sane (well below max of 40.5) and may address the issue as well. With cast, you really want the lower pressures and velocities so I stop at 36.5 of 4350 with the Lyman 311284 (210 gr) for example.

Neck sizing only and slightly higher pressure may sort this issue out. If shooting jacketed, a good crimp like that from the LEE Factory Crimp Die will also help but I don't like nor do I counsel more than a light taper crimp for cast. I would also get some Winchester brass in. It's a little cheesy, admittedly, but the the rim size is .064 -.065 across two recent 50 ct bags I bought, which is SAAMI spec and just right for my Krag.

David4516
February 4, 2013, 06:35 PM
RPRNY, thanks for the info. I didn't realize that the Remington Brass had a thinner rim than Winchester. I bought Remington brass because at the time it was the only brass I could find. I think they only do limited production runs for this caliber, so finding brass in stock of any brand is hit or miss.

To answer your question, I'm going with Jacketed bullets, mainly Hornady. I have thought about cast but have not tried it. I'm a big fan of cast bullets for handguns, but rarely use them in rifles.

RPRNY
February 5, 2013, 10:41 AM
I can't say that the Remington brass is thin. You can check that, but if it is thin, I can say the Winchester brass I recently bought has correct rim thickness specs.

In any event, with jacketed bullets, just up your charge incrementally to still below max and you will see the primer issue back off or disappear. Enjoy.

ArchAngelCD
February 5, 2013, 03:29 PM
Also, checking the website again, they do list the IMR 4350 / 180gr combo (see attached screen capture). They don't show anything for the 220gr bullet, but my Hornady manual does, says 40gr of 4350 is the max load. Sounds like it will duplicate original military ammo specs, 220gr bullet, 40 grains of powder, and 2000FPS velocitiy.
Just because a company lists data for a powder combination doesn't mean it's a good choice, safe yes, good choice, not always.

If you look at all the 180gr bullet data you will see the velocities for H4350 are lower than other powders. That's telling me you can't get enough powder in the case to achieve the velocities the faster powders can. IMR4350 is showing higher velocities than H4350 but it's also a compressed load. Most powders perform better at the top of the pressure range and they for sure burn cleaner. While you CAN use H4350 safely the faster powders I listed above are much better choices.

My favorite 30-06 powder is H4350 but when I load M1 Garand ammo I have to use a faster powder, usually 4895 or 4064. Sometimes you have to use something other than what you like because it will produce better ammo. but as always, you do what you think is best for you and your rifle.

RPRNY
February 5, 2013, 06:16 PM
AA may well make a point on the "faster" powders with jacketed bullets, although I am not an advocate for high velocity/pressure with the Krag.

For cast, IMR and H 4350 are indeed good calls. I use 41.5 grs of H4350 under the Lyman 311284 210 gr gas checked bullet for 1870 fps. 40 grs with a jacketed 220 RN seems reasonable and appropriate, although I don't know the seating depth of that bullet, and 4350 delivers lower chamber pressures than the "faster" powders, which your Krag will appreciate.

MEHavey
February 5, 2013, 06:52 PM
When reloading for rimmed rifle cartridges one should set the sizer to bump the shoulder just enough to allow the round to
chamber, else you'll get case head separation within a couple of reloads.+1

It may headspace the first time on the rim, but after that size to headspace on the shoulder like any other bottleneck cartridge.

(postscript: Same thing goes for belted magnum cases... resize to headspace on the shoulder after 1st firing)

(postscript#2: In your case, at this time, the case has not stretched much at all. I'd up the charge enough to get re-seated/flush primers next time, and then size for the shoulder after that.)

AABEN
February 5, 2013, 08:37 PM
I loaded up a batch of .30-40 Krag, first time for this cartridge for me. I loaded it with 36.0 grains of IMR-3031, and 180gr bullets. I noticed that after firing in the majority of the cases the primers were coming out?

When I had loaded the rounds the primers were all flush with the brass, so this happened after firing.

Is this a sign of over-pressure? I am below the max loads shown in my reloading manuals. That said it's a 110 year old rifle so maybe I should reduce them more...

I was also planning on trying 220gr bullets, and maybe IMR 4350, or even H335 for powder. I think 4350 is my favorite rifle powder...

When I was shooting I didn't notice anything unusual, every appeared normal and it was very pleasant to shoot, especially compared to the .280 Remington I've been shooting lately. I really like the rifle and and hoping to have some fun reloading for it, but now I'm a little worried. Is this primer thing normal?

Thanks in advance for any info/advice...
Yes try 4350 it is a slower burning powder. I thank you might try some 8700. ACC load book 4350 39.6 up to 44.0 8700 47.7 up to 53.0 that would be a compressed load. GOOD LUCK

gamestalker
February 6, 2013, 02:27 PM
That is caused from under pressure loads. When a load is too far below SAAMI pressures that will happen. It can also cause hot gases to leaks from the primer pocket which can damage the bolt face, gas cutting as it were.
If you reduce that load any further you make experience a more serious problem known as secondary detonation, bad things happen.

GS

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