Auto vs Bolt Suppression


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Mencius
November 12, 2012, 01:54 PM
So, I have a 10/22 I am thinking about getting a screw-on can for. How much quieter would a 77/22 be if I use subsonic ammo in both with a screw on suppressor? When I say quieter I realize the action in the auto is going to make some clicks when it cycles, but other than that what kind of noise difference are we talking about?

I guess, would the difference be noticeable by a layperson?

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SilentScream
November 13, 2012, 01:19 PM
should be pretty darn close, If I remember correctly they both have the same barrel length(at least the base models anyway.) If the 77/22 has a slightly longer barrel I would think it would have an edge in the sound dept. However would it be something that is discernible without high tech equipment? Doubt it.

PBR Streetgang
November 13, 2012, 01:57 PM
I have a 22/45 ,10-22 w/16 inch barrel and a Savage 22 bolt action w/16 inch barrel. Out of the pistol it sounds like a medium handclap ,a bit louder out of the 10-22 and the Savage sounds like a light handclap.
If you are planning using sub-sonic ammo you might want to look at a barrel with a different rate of twist to keep your accuracy up to par.

BWT the can is a Gemtech Outback IID

Mencius
November 13, 2012, 02:43 PM
So you are saying the little bit longer barrel on the boltie is a little quieter, but not by much? Hmm...

Nifty944
November 16, 2012, 12:03 PM
You also won't get action noise from a bolt gun. Just something to keep in mind depending on your purpose.

SilentScream
November 19, 2012, 11:37 AM
So you are saying the little bit longer barrel on the boltie is a little quieter, but not by much? Hmm...
Essentially more of the propellent gas is being used to push the projectile down the barrel. To put it simply, by the time said gasses get to the suppressor there is less work for the suppressor to do.
And yes the lack of a bolt assembly clacking back & forth makes for a quieter platform as well.

alemonkey
November 20, 2012, 07:50 PM
Action noise is significant. I have a .22 AR upper that puts out very little muzzle noise with a suppressor, but I still get a loud noise from the action cycling. When I stick that same can on my bolt action .22 it's quieter than an air gun.

hq
November 21, 2012, 02:09 PM
Noise is highly dependent on the action. Some are very quiet while others aren't and all bolt guns are. By far the loudest noise you'll hear is the bullet hitting the target, if the suppressor setup is done properly and you use subsonic ammo.

A buffered 10/22 is very quiet, all you hear is a tiny click. Something you can't even hear 25-30 yards away unless you really try.

Swampman
November 22, 2012, 06:42 AM
I have a Ruger 10-22 with a TacSol aluminum 16" barrel and a stock Savage MK II FVSR Bolt Action, also with a 16" barrel.
To the shooter, the bolt action seems noticeably quieter, but to a person standing 75 feet away, they sound pretty much identical.
When I want the best suppression possible out of the 10-22, I attach a magnetic bolt lock to it, essentially turning it into a straight pull bolt action.

To me, one of the main advantages of the semi auto is that the cheap (but very accurate) Winchester Dynapoint bulk ammo almost always stays subsonic, in the Savage bolt gun (or the 10-22 with the bolt locked), you get a fairly high percentage of rounds that go trans or supersonic.

Another thing to keep in mind is that perceived noise is very subjective. Different people have varying amounts of hearing loss and the loss can be in different frequencies. For that reason, what sounds loud to you, might seem very quiet to me and vice versa.

Mencius
November 22, 2012, 07:12 AM
You are right, considering the amount of hearing loss I have, I probably would not even notice the difference. I had not thought of the magnetic bolt lock. Do those cause any issues with the gun, long term? I guess I am asking if it wears the gun out in unexpected/different places than without?

kim breed
November 22, 2012, 09:00 AM
Semi autos have to use gas pressure to cycle the action, bleed off gas. chamber noise can be challanging as you need to cycle your action. bolt actions keep the same pressure and no chamber noise. my bolt actions are more suppressed that my AR's. Just not as fun to shoot.

aubie515
November 23, 2012, 12:18 AM
77/22 will suppress better than your 10/22. I first started out using my GT OBII with a 10/22 and you could hear the action cycle and the brass dropping. Sold the 10/22 and bought an 880SQ...problem solved.

Swampman
November 24, 2012, 02:45 AM
The claim that there's no action noise from a bolt gun is not really correct. There IS noise when the bolt is operated, furthermore that noise is accompanied by the movement of your hand as you work the bolt. Whether this is significant depends on what you're trying to do.

For most feral animal control it doesn't seem to make any difference, but when hunting squirrels I've found the semi auto to be far superior, assuming that it has the accuracy needed.

Imagine a scurry of squirrels gathering nuts in a small grove of hickory, suddenly there's a quiet "phfut" sound and your squirrel buddy Carl falls off the limb he was sitting on. Everybody freezes instantly and begins to really listen and look around trying to figure out if something awful happened to Carl, or if he's just been eating fermented berries again.

Now at this point the hunter with a semi auto can very slowly move his muzzle an inch or two, draw a bead on another squirrel and fire.
The bolt gunner however, has to slowly move his hand to work the bolt, there's a little "snick" as the handle comes up and cocks the action, accompanied by the slightest of hand movements and ALL HELL BREAKS LOOSE IN SQUIRRELTOWN! Now instead of your targets being as still and quiet as possible, they're doing their best to get the hell outta Dodge as fast as they possibly can while keeping a tree between you and them.

Heck, even if you had a Saiga 12 with a 20 round drum you probably wouldn't be able to bag any of 'em.

The point I'm trying to make, is that several small sounds, all happening virtually at the same time, are gonna be less likely to spook a squirrel than several slightly quieter sounds spread out over time and accompanied by movement.
A bolt lock can make a semi auto rifle every bit as quiet as a bolt action, but there's not much you can do with a bolt to keep from moving your hand, except use it as a single shot.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, take a semi and a bolt rifle with equivalent length barrels, both threaded to take the same suppressor. Then walk 40 or 50 yards away and have someone fire single shots while swapping the suppressor back and forth between the two guns. The shooter numbers the shots and writes down which weapon fired each shot and the listener does the same. If the direction and angle of the shots are varied a bit (and the listener doesn't cheat by looking at what's being fired), you'll be hard put to get any real correlation between the two lists.
This test only applies if normal steps to control noise, such as a plastic buffer and a little grease have been applied to the semi auto to keep it from "clanging" after each shot.

I'll try to get some pics taken of my cheapo magnetic bolt lock and post 'em. I just wish I could figure out how to post real pictures rather than "thumbnails", is it even possible to post real pictures from a smartphone?

Swampman
November 25, 2012, 07:49 PM
The first picture shows the magnetic portion of the nametag holder along with the handle.
175310


The second photo shows the bolt lock actually installed on the weapon. I created the "handle" by drilling and tapping a hole through the plate, then after liberal use of Loctite,I installed a jam nut to hold the handle in position.
While grinding the plate so that it'll fit the ejection port, go slowly. You want the finished product to be a fairly firm press fit when you stick it to the bolt. (I know mine looks like there's a gap at the front but that's just the way the 10-22 bolt is made)
The first one I made had a bit of free play at the end and broke after a couple hundred rounds.
Look at it like holding the bolt shut on a .22 pistol. If your thumb is firmly pressed against the back of the slide there's no problem, but if you have a gap between the slide and your thumb, it's gonna leave a mark!
175311
I've fired 500 plus rounds using this lock and haven't had any problems with the lock or my 10-22. One of the nicest features about it is that when not in use, you can stick it to any steel portion of your gun and it'll stay there, held by the magnets, ready for use whenever you want to make an extra quiet shot.

Mencius
November 26, 2012, 07:07 AM
Ok, with those magnetic holds to cycle a round you have to take it off to cycle the bolt, right? I just want to make sure I am looking at it correctly.

THanks.

Swampman
November 26, 2012, 09:49 AM
Mencius: That is correct, after each shot you must remove the bolt lock, hand cycle the action, then replace the bolt lock. It's not quick, but coupled with the use of a couple of cc's of ultrasound gell in the blast chamber, it does give just about the best suppression possible from a 10-22.

Honestly, other than "bragging rights" type use with friends at the range, I haven't used it all that much. A good plastic buffer such as a Volquartsen (I use one made from a concrete anchor screw, it works just as well, lasts longer and doesn't cost $10.99) and a little Lubri Plate grease will quiet a suppressed 10-22 down well enough for 99% of the shooting you're likely to do.

I'm just a tinkerer by nature and I'm always playing with things trying to improve them.
I'm also of Scottish ancestry, which makes me frugal (my wife says I'm just flat cheap).
These two traits added together mean that I'm pretty much always looking for a better, cheaper way to do things, even if it doesn't really make much sense from a practical point of view.

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