Remington Hulls


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Lerk
November 14, 2012, 01:45 AM
So anyone else have issues with the sidewall on older green remington hulls wrinkling? No matter how much fiddling I do with with the crimp, wad pressure, and components, these hulls just want to crush. I've altered my technique to be gentler and I've also tried doing the final crimp stage in multiple small passes with no luck. I've even set the crimp on it so it didn't even push in at all, just rounded the top and had it flat, and it still did it. Inspecting the hulls, I can see no visual indications as to why they're doing it. I am getting tired of it, any ideas? I have no issues with my Peters blue magic hulls which are the same age and identical construction. Just to note, I'm doing this on a Pacific DL-255 press.

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Steve2md
November 14, 2012, 02:32 AM
I load them all the time on my loadall2 and have never had that problem. Maybe the plastic is starting to degrade? I couldn't say

rbernie
November 14, 2012, 09:04 AM
Are you crushing the hull up by the crimp fold, or is the distortion down closer to the hull base?

If the former, then you likely still don't have the crimper adjusted correctly - it should be adjustable both for depth of fold and for overall height (but I load on a MEC so I can't give you specifics on your loader). If the distortion is closer to the hull's base, then you might be seeing the wad's gas seal peeling back when being seated and causing ripples. I've had that happen with certain types of wads, and short of using mica or another lube to ease the wad's passing the only thing that I could ever do to fix it was to change wad brands/styles.

oneounceload
November 14, 2012, 09:26 AM
First off, what recipe are you using? Sometimes, components have changed over the years and mixing very old with new does not work because sizes have changed. You shouldn't need ANY wad pressure if you are using modern plastic shot cups.

It sounds like you are trying to stuff 10# of you-know-what in a 5# bag
With the recipe, we might be able to see what is wrong. Initially, it could be the pre crimp or final

Lerk
November 14, 2012, 01:55 PM
The area that is crushing is down at the base, I've never had it by the mouth. I have this issue no matter what load I use, from 7/8oz to 1-3/8oz. I have it happen with all of my brand of wads that I use (happens with Winchester, Western, and the Claybusters) but only with the Remington hulls, never had it happen with my Peters, WinAA, or even the Estate hulls I reload.

But the currently load is as follows:

Remington Hulls 2-3/4"
17.5 gr Red Dot
Win209 Primer
WT12 Wad (recipe uses a WAA12 Wad)
1-1/8oz of 7-1/2 magnum lead shot

This recipe is out of the Lyman Shotshell book.

HOWARD J
November 14, 2012, 03:37 PM
@lerk
I use the same for Win AA hulls
only 18 gr of Red Dot
I loaded a couple & it works great

http://imageshack.us/a/img96/5821/shotgunreloads.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/96/shotgunreloads.jpg/)

blarby
November 14, 2012, 04:05 PM
Remington Hulls 2-3/4"
17.5 gr Red Dot
Win209 Primer
WT12 Wad (recipe uses a WAA12 Wad)
1-1/8oz of 7-1/2 magnum lead shot

If you are using this recipe, and crushing hulls.... one of two things ( or possibly both in conjunction) is happening:

1. Overpressure: Easy there tiger.... If you have a setup that automatically stops and sets downstroke, back it off a bit.

2. Hull failure: These hulls might be done.

In good condition hulls, that load is common and very un-problematic. If you were trying to stuff the wrong amount of shot in it- sure. Doesn't sound like the issue.

Check your pressure.

Check your hulls- use the bend test between thumb and forefinger. A good solid hull should not give significantly under the pressure it would take to write using a pen. It should take substantial force. I know thats not exactly scientific... but a lot of the hulls I recover that are "left" behind at ranges fail this test. Thats why they got left there in the first place.

Get us some pics !

oneounceload
November 14, 2012, 04:41 PM
I do not see your recipe on Alliant's reloading center data, but there is one with a lower and slightly higher powder drop, so size of load doesn't seem to be an issue. Have you weighed your powder and shot drops to make they are "close enough" to your recipe? If components are correct, then the other thing to look at is your wad - is it seating down on the powder and not getting hung up on the inside of the hull? otherwise, it would be in the pre crimp and final crimp area - it might be too much of either. And just for grins and giggles, these ARE 2-3/4" hulls and not 3", correct? Just trying to make sure we don't overlook something silly

Lerk
November 14, 2012, 05:40 PM
Blarby- I just did the finger test on 20 hulls, couldn't get a single one to even flex unless I squeezed to the point of shaking, so I don't think that's my problem, the plastic seems really good on them.

Oneounceload- I constantly verify my powder/shot charges. I do the nail polish trick inside of my bushing to ensure that the drop is right on, and usually I can hold powder +/-.1gr and shot to +/-.005oz so it's not a consistency issue as to why they're crushing. I've even broken down some crushed ones to verify the drops, and they're still right on. I also have verified that the wad is seating on the powder correctly, did a little cutout on it to visually confirm. Positive they are 2-3/4" hulls, that was one of the first thing I checked once I couldn't figure it out, thinking I may have had a brain fart when grabbing components.

The only thing that is different loading these compared to the Peters is that is seems the wads take a little more force/pressure to feed in the Remington hulls, so the wads might be seating weird. I know I'm not damaging the wads as when I break down hulls that are crushed, the wads have no damage marks, and measuring them, I can find no variances to show they were crushed or bent.

Here are some pictures to show you. The two on the left are good loads from this recipe with no idications of crushing. The middle two are crushed hulls from this recipe. And the two on the right are a different load (Rem Hull, 7-1/2 shot, 7/8oz, 17.5gr Red Dot, WAA12L Wad, and Win 209 primer) just to show that it is occurring with different wads (this is also a load from the Lyman book).

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w175/Lehrke91/IMG_0282.jpg

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w175/Lehrke91/IMG_0284.jpg

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w175/Lehrke91/IMG_0285.jpg

HOWARD J
November 14, 2012, 06:28 PM
Are these a one piece hull ?
Win new AA hulls have a 3rd piece that when you run your finger down inside the tube you can feel the sharp edge of this piece---sometimes the wad hits this edge & crushes case---looks just like your photo
CHECK THE INSIDE OF YOUR HULL FOR THIS EDGE ???

oneounceload
November 14, 2012, 06:50 PM
Your crimps are dished and those exact same "oil barrel" creases (as I call them) are caused in the crimp area
First, take off the wad pressure - it should be zero with modern plastic wads
Second check the pre crimp station - it needs adjustment
third, the final may need some adjustment as well

Both need to be raised so as not to crush the hull

Have you verified the powder and shot drops? You have a few that look light in the shot drop area (on the left)

Those aren't that bad in any case - if they chamber, shoot them and reload again

blarby
November 14, 2012, 07:14 PM
This appears to be what happens to me when I simply apply too much pressure on the final crimp.

This only happens to me when I use too much pressure on shells that are smooth, not crenelated. There are many proprietary terms for that process, but the hulls that are essentially ribbed- like the new standard gun club hulls.

The shells on the left in those pictures- it appears you have a load/wad disparity...too much space.

On the right the load looks correct according to the crimp, as oneounce noted.

With that said, I'd say your best bet is to adjust your final crimp pressure. Unless you are using a very funky wad, your hulls are folding right where the wad should be the strongest- and that takes a lot of pressure.

BUT.... since you are using a different load for all three of these results, it makes everything tricky. I'd check to make sure everything is right in your component stack, and that your doser is dispensing as you think it is.

Worse case scenario- go back to the load on the left... your machine and you seem to like that combo a lot better :D


I like those old rem hulls- just like the blue magics, albeit a little thinner.

They need to bring back this stuff for use instead of the softer STS hull type- just my opinion. They work great for shot loads, but not nearly as well as the blue/green magic for slugs.

I'm also glad i'm not the only one who notes test loads on the brass in sharpie :)

Lerk
November 14, 2012, 07:18 PM
I the components just settled a little. Last night they all had a nice level crimp but now they're a little drooped in the center. The laters ones are just fine, these were ones where I was playing around with things trying to fix them, but they just happen to be the most photgenic pieces.

Howard- Yes these are a one piece hull, no steps to speak of internally.

Oneounce- So your saying is that all my problems are likely my wad seating and crimping stage, correct? If so looks like I'll have to keep playing with it. No pressure issues to be concerned with shooting them?

Blarby- Yes I agree, they are thinner when compared to blue magics of the same age. I did a little test, I no matter how full I filled a Peters hull and no matter how much pressure I used on it, I seriously couldn't get one to crushed like these Remingtons do (no I didn't shoot them). And using a sharpie is almost mandatory for me, when I do test loads, I usually load up around 15-20 loads to try and it can get to be disorganized in a hurry. The sharpie keeps things straight if something go wrongs (like my boxes spilling different loads together, had that happen before I marked them, not fun breaking them down because I didn't know which ones were which).

Lerk
November 14, 2012, 07:46 PM
What are you guys using for the length of a crimped case? None of my books have ever given me a recommended length to use, and I wanted to compare mine with others. When comparing to hulls of different brands, the current length is similar, but I don't have a factory Remington loaded round to compare with and just wanted to verify if I'm similar.

HOWARD J
November 14, 2012, 08:09 PM
I think you are close to a time for some new hulls.
I always got mine from ballisticproducts.com
Have fun

Lerk
November 14, 2012, 08:25 PM
Yea they've seen better days Howard. But it'll be a long time before I need spend money on new hulls. Off the top of my head, I have three 5 gallon buckets of Peters Blue Magic, 2 5gal buckets of WinAA, 1 5gal of Estate, and nearly a full 5gal bucket of these Remingtons. Not to mention that my uncles are continuously "donating" more to me. So far not a penny spent on hulls :)

JLDickmon
November 14, 2012, 09:59 PM
I'd agree with a couple of the other guys.. the hulls are tired..

HOWARD J
November 14, 2012, 10:00 PM
Well---enjoy playing with those remingtons

Lerk
November 14, 2012, 10:11 PM
Sounds like the best plan, looks like I'll reload them up and seperate them tonight. Once I use the crushed ones I'll just dispose of them.

oneounceload
November 14, 2012, 10:33 PM
I load Remington hulls exclusively for 12 and 20 - I load 3/4 oz for both exclusively, at first, some gave me that oil barrel look - by backing off the pre crimp until the hull is just almost closed and then the final crimp to give me a straight across crimp with the depth oif a nickel - no dish, no swirl - I know I have it right

As to shooting them, you are using a published recipe, so that is not an issue - depending on the creases, it might be easier with an O/U or SxS instead of a pup or auto

Lerk
November 14, 2012, 11:19 PM
Good advice thank you, I'll keep that in mind when I do setup. Just finished loading up 200rds so that'll last me a bit. Out of those over half had creases, so I'm just going to say that the hulls are done for. I'll be running all of the creased ones through my Orion O/U anyways so feeding won't be an issue.

Still have about 100 empty Rem hulls here, but I think I'm going to save those for more test loads and maybe some hunting loads, just in case I don't get my hands on anymore of them anytime soon.

oldreloader
November 14, 2012, 11:30 PM
Your crimps are dished and those exact same "oil barrel" creases (as I call them) are caused in the crimp area
First, take off the wad pressure - it should be zero with modern plastic wads
Second check the pre crimp station - it needs adjustment
third, the final may need some adjustment as well

Both need to be raised so as not to crush the hull

Have you verified the powder and shot drops? You have a few that look light in the shot drop area (on the left)

Those aren't that bad in any case - if they chamber, shoot them and reload again
I agree

gamestalker
November 15, 2012, 03:09 PM
I use a Mec 600 and have experienced the same problem on a couple of occasions when forgetting to adjust the finishing crimp pressure. And in my opinion it is absolutely related to crimp pressure.

GS

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