malfunction that cause full auto


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JBrady555
November 14, 2012, 10:36 AM
Hey guys I have read some stories about malfunctioning guns causing full auto fire. I won't say I'm fearful of this, but it worries me when I think about my wife or other relatives having such a malfunction happen. Some people might be extremely suprised by something like this. This could be very bad if the gun came out of the shooters hand. Anyone ever seen this happen first hand? What causes such a problem?

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hentown
November 14, 2012, 10:39 AM
Different causes for different firearm designs. I'd spend more money on Paxil, and less on firearms for a while! ;)

oneounceload
November 14, 2012, 10:40 AM
Ruger MKII went to full auto and was firing three shot bursts. Ruger never said what was wrong, they just fixed it and sent it back, although I suspect a sear went bad. Whatever happened also blew the extractor off the gun resulting in jams after a few three shot bursts

JBrady555
November 14, 2012, 10:51 AM
Different causes for different firearm designs. I'd spend more money on Paxil, and less on firearms for a while! ;)
LOL, I am a chronic worrier sometimes. I guess I'm just a "any thing that can go wrong will go wrong" kinda guy.

forindooruseonly
November 14, 2012, 10:53 AM
I had an acquaintance's Hi-Power go FA on me. He had "home-gunsmithed" it a bit for a better trigger. He claims it never went FA on him, but I have my doubts. Anyways, a brief explanation of the consequences convinced him to have it fixed.

Generally, the only handguns that are going to go FA have been tinkered with a little too much. Rarely, a truly worn gun might, or I've heard of it, but have never seen or heard of a first hand account. It is a really, really rare event with a stock gun.

I was shooting one handed when it happened to me, it dumped 8 or 9 rounds, and it was a handful for me. The last rounds went sailing over the berm, thankfully we were on a private ranch and there wasn't anything behind the backstop. It happens so fast that you don't have time to react, all you can do is hold on and try to keep it pointed in a safe direction. I think a worse case scenario would be panicking and dropping it, but I've also heard that the lack of resistance would kill the recoil and it wouldn't cycle if that happened. I, for one, am not willing to try that little hypothesis out.

It also gave me the worst case of hammer bite that I'd ever seen..

hentown
November 14, 2012, 12:10 PM
LOL, I am a chronic worrier sometimes. I guess I'm just a "any thing that can go wrong will go wrong" kinda guy

Paxil is your friend! I took some bad advice from a guy on another forum and radiused the engagement suraces of my old Gen2 G17. It thought it was a G18 for about three weeks! Changed out the trigger bar and it worked fine after that. Really was a lot more fun when it was a faux G18, though! :)

Guy de Loimbard
November 14, 2012, 01:41 PM
Also take into account that it may be another factor other than the gun.

When I first got into reloading one of my uncles gave me a whole load of different primers and powders that he had used to load .22-250. At the time I had an AR-15, so I could use most of them. I found the gun would shoot full auto if I used Federal Benchrest primers. Never had that happen with any other primer, or for that matter any other gun.

Blue68f100
November 14, 2012, 01:49 PM
I know of this happening one time to a guy that decided he wanted to do his own trigger work on a 1911. He took to much off the sear. I shot it, it was fun but a hand full consider a 1911 will run at 800+/min. This was on cheap parts that where not heat treated properly. This can also happen with MIM parts if not properly heat treated. This was the case early on when mfg started using MIM part to save cost. But in most cases it takes a lot of rounds to wear one out.

Personally I would not worry about it. The case most all the time is someone doing their own trigger work and messed up.

If you buy a quality gun there is no problem. As with any gun, proper maintenance is required to keep them running smooth and trouble free.

Skylerbone
November 15, 2012, 10:29 AM
Best I can offer is to study the info available on each model you own. Worry is interest paid on a debt not owed, that's what my father always says anyway.

Only personal account I know of is a friend and career LEO whose DPMS went racing for the follower. Last straw for that one, he sold it with full disclosure to another officer who fixed it.

I did see a nasty squib last month that made an accordion out of a Browning shotgun. Slug didn't clear the barrel, shooter didn't think and second slug kersploded the barrel. I wanted to scold the owner as he explained how the ammo was to blame but it was not my place to do so and the store owner was already asking the right questions and cautioning against firing if the preceding round seemed at all abnormal.

.357 magnum
November 15, 2012, 09:04 PM
If it Goes Full Auto on you, just remember GOD has Blessed You! How Very Fortunate!

Unka-Boo
November 15, 2012, 09:10 PM
I had an acquaintance's Hi-Power go FA on me. He had "home-gunsmithed" it a bit for a better trigger. He claims it never went FA on him, but I have my doubts. Anyways, a brief explanation of the consequences convinced him to have it fixed.

Generally, the only handguns that are going to go FA have been tinkered with a little too much. Rarely, a truly worn gun might, or I've heard of it, but have never seen or heard of a first hand account. It is a really, really rare event with a stock gun.

I was shooting one handed when it happened to me, it dumped 8 or 9 rounds, and it was a handful for me. The last rounds went sailing over the berm, thankfully we were on a private ranch and there wasn't anything behind the backstop. It happens so fast that you don't have time to react, all you can do is hold on and try to keep it pointed in a safe direction. I think a worse case scenario would be panicking and dropping it, but I've also heard that the lack of resistance would kill the recoil and it wouldn't cycle if that happened. I, for one, am not willing to try that little hypothesis out.

It also gave me the worst case of hammer bite that I'd ever seen..

I think I bought that gun at a gun show about 6 years ago...:eek:

Well, prolly not the same one, but I had the same thing happen.....bought an Argentine HP used at a show, didn't get around to shooting it for a month. First time at the range was " bang, bang, BRRRRRAP!" :banghead:

Someone had played "home gunsmith" on it too and I didn't catch that until I shot it...:(

guyfromohio
November 15, 2012, 09:15 PM
SKS went full auto on me..... before it stopped firing altogether.

firesky101
November 15, 2012, 09:57 PM
I put an FEG back together wrong one day and it had some interesting habits. After it emptied most of a mag, back in the case it went and I pulled it down and fixed it that night. To answer your original question yes FA if not controlled properly or prepared for can have some devastating consequences. I recall a news story from a few years ago where a 5yo could not control the FA 9mm subgun that his family rented at the range. It had a tragic ending. If you do not screw with your sear however, the odds of a gun going FA is very low. An old mossberg .22 I had used to start tripling if I shot too many round through it without cleaning it. That was a warning sign that things needed attention. Most guns will give you a sign that there are problems before going FA on you (of the very, very small percentage of firearms that might have a problem that could cause FA)

forindooruseonly
November 16, 2012, 02:11 AM
I think I bought that gun at a gun show about 6 years ago...

Well, prolly not the same one, but I had the same thing happen.....bought an Argentine HP used at a show, didn't get around to shooting it for a month. First time at the range was " bang, bang, BRRRRRAP!"

Someone had played "home gunsmith" on it too and I didn't catch that until I shot it...

It's a handful, ain't it! Hopefully all turned out ok. It is definitely a rude awakening.

If it Goes Full Auto on you, just remember GOD has Blessed You! How Very Fortunate!

Hmm, I hope I'm missing something here.

76shuvlinoff
November 16, 2012, 06:08 AM
I have read the old Walther P38s could go full auto when decocked. The decocker on my Dad's bring-back didn't work when I got it so I replaced the drop bar. The decocker worked then but fortunately I only put one round in the pistol because it discharged.
I remembered Dad had someone make a firing pin for it years ago, after I bought and installed a proper firing pin it's seems perfectly OK but I still won't decock it on a loaded chamber. There are stories out there where these P38s if worn or Budda'd will dump a full mag in a heartbeat.

2wheels
November 16, 2012, 10:02 AM
Most times when I hear about a pistol going full auto or otherwise going BANG when it ain't supposed to, somebody who didn't know what they were doing went and messed with the internals for whatever reason, often to improve the trigger pull.

Or sometimes it's an old and possibly worn out or poorly maintained design. Many of these older guns have known issues that you can look out for, like some old double action pistols that have decockers that are known to fail, or SKSs slamfiring if cosmoline or other gunk gets around the firing pin.

Other than that, I wouldn't worry too much about a gun going full auto on you.

hentown
November 16, 2012, 10:32 AM
IF there were many instances of firearms' spontaneously going full-auto, we'd see a lot more spontaneously-grinning shooters. :evil:

mljdeckard
November 16, 2012, 11:29 AM
I don't see how it happening would ever be regarded as a good thing. If it happens, you aren't EXPECTING it. If you aren't prepared for it, you could lose your grip. If it is runaway fire, .....now you have a problem.

And you have absolutely no way of knowing if BATFE will believe you when you tell them it was unintentional.

BSA1
November 16, 2012, 12:41 PM
I would suggest going to a revolver but then you would have to worry about running out of ammunition when attacked by a zombie mob.:eek:

firesky101
November 16, 2012, 01:08 PM
I would suggest going to a revolver but then you would have to worry about running out of ammunition when attacked by a zombie mob.:eek:
I have seen reports of a SAA going FA. Supposedly a firing pin that was over traveling was piercing primers. The gas escaping from the primer hole caused the hammer to shoot back and rotate the cylinder. Since the trigger was held down the hammer went ahead and fell on the next round. And it kept going like that till it had no more live rounds.

Walt Sherrill
November 16, 2012, 01:44 PM
Had a Luger, fresh back from the gunsmith, go auto on me. Thanks to a then-crappy magazine, it only fired three shots. I think I had to change my underwear.

If you're anticipating shooting a auto pistol you can compensate (ala Glock 18), but when you're not, you're generally just along for the ride. In my case, I'm thankful for a crappy magazine.

There's a little detent on the side of the Luger that is supposed to be depressed with each shot; mine was stuck in the OUT position.

Vern Humphrey
November 16, 2012, 07:36 PM
Believe it or not, a Colt Single Action revolver can go full auto. In one case in Texas, some fool fired a "warning shot" into the dirt at an agressor's feet. The gun was missing the recoil shield, which would have supported the primer. The primer blew out, gas blew through the firing pin hole, blew the hammer to the full cock position, and since the shoorter still had his finger on the trigger, the gun fired again. In all, three shots were fired.

millertyme
November 18, 2012, 12:18 AM
I was given an old Savage 64 that some hobbyist had played with. It was intereting to say the least. I destroyed it.

eldon519
November 18, 2012, 09:39 AM
I've had it happen with a range rental 1911 and a Yugo SKS. In the case of the Yugo, I think it was old cosmoline in the firing pin channel. Once I cleaned it up well, it quit doing it. The 1911, I don't know what its issue was, but it seemed pretty worn.

hentown
November 18, 2012, 10:12 AM
I don't see how it happening would ever be regarded as a good thing. If it happens, you aren't EXPECTING it. If you aren't prepared for it, you could lose your grip. If it is runaway fire, .....now you have a problem.

And you have absolutely no way of knowing if BATFE will believe you when you tell them it was unintentional.
__________________

In my case, while f.a. wasn't intentional, it also wasn't a surprise. Ergo, first time I tried the G17 out after the modification, I only loaded two rounds, and it doubled. I then loaded three rounds, and it tripled. I then packed up and went home. I was concerned that it might dump a full mag and that I wouldn't be able to stop with a burst. However, I went back to the range later that same day and loaded up a full mag. I found that I could control the pistol and that it would shoot controlled bursts.

Why would I ever have to explain anything to BATFE? I didn't tell them anything to begin with. Since I was alone at the range, who'd tell them? Ya think they magically "know" when somebody's modified a weapon for f.a. fire? ;)

Ramone
November 18, 2012, 11:06 AM
while not quite FA, I have seen 1911s that were prone to double or triple due to a mis-adjusted trigger overtravel screw.

eldon519
November 18, 2012, 12:11 PM
Why would I ever have to explain anything to BATFE? I didn't tell them anything to begin with. Since I was alone at the range, who'd tell them? Ya think they magically "know" when somebody's modified a weapon for f.a. fire?

You literally just told the whole world. Maybe you are unclear how the internet works? That www. stands for World Wide Web.

It's extremely unlikely, but it wouldn't be the first time someone went to prison for posting things on the internet. I read about a girl recently who got caught for blowing up toilets in the woods with homemade explosives and posting the videos on YouTube.

gamestalker
November 18, 2012, 02:33 PM
Very recently my Son bough one of those very inexpensive AR style 22LR knock off's and it went full auto. It has a 10 round clip and it will absolutely empty that clip so fast that it sounds and feels like only a single round is being fired.

GS

Jaymo
November 18, 2012, 04:12 PM
I've never had it happen, and don't intend for it to happen. I don't tinker with my guns, as long as they work correctly.
I don't mess with triggers.

hentown
November 19, 2012, 12:12 AM
You literally just told the whole world. Maybe you are unclear how the internet works? That www. stands for World Wide Web.

It's extremely unlikely, but it wouldn't be the first time someone went to prison for posting things on the internet. I read about a girl recently who got caught for blowing up toilets in the woods with homemade explosives and posting the videos on YouTube.

Your understanding of the law is underwhelming! :rolleyes::cool:

FIVETWOSEVEN
November 19, 2012, 06:34 PM
It's extremely unlikely, but it wouldn't be the first time someone went to prison for posting things on the internet. I read about a girl recently who got caught for blowing up toilets in the woods with homemade explosives and posting the videos on YouTube.

Someone got caught and convicted for trying to make a illegal submachine gun. He was trying to build a semi auto Sten with a full auto receiver and had a full auto bolt in the background of the picture. He disappeared from the forum he was on and people were wondering where he went till his wife came on and told them. The BATF saw his picture and arrested and convicted him.

I would never admit to a crime no matter how big or small somewhere where Law Enforcement would or could see it.

Your understanding of the law is underwhelming!

They could still start an investigation and give you a headache you don't want in your life. Be smart about it.

Jaxondog
November 19, 2012, 09:05 PM
I have a friend who just added a set of Crimson Trace grip's to his Glock Mod 20 and presto magnifico, full auto. We shot it at my house the day after he put them on cause he has nowhere to shoot at his house. He ask me to try it out, so i did and i'm glad I put only 3 round's in it. We both looked at each other and said ***.I handed him the gun and asked him what did you do to it and he said nothing but put the grip's on. I said it had to be something else but he stuck to it and said that he thought the screw in the grip was interfering with the magazine release button a little. Needless to say he is very happy with it and I told him I did not want to shoot it anymore that I thought it was dangerous. Oh well.

FIVETWOSEVEN
November 19, 2012, 09:15 PM
Is it just me or are Glocks really easy to convert to full auto? Seems like a bad trigger job will do the trick.

Jaymo
November 19, 2012, 09:39 PM
I saw a youtube video of a guy bump firing a Beretta 92.

hentown
November 20, 2012, 08:45 AM
I have a friend who just added a set of Crimson Trace grip's to his Glock Mod 20 and presto magnifico, full auto. We shot it at my house the day after he put them on cause he has nowhere to shoot at his house. He ask me to try it out, so i did and i'm glad I put only 3 round's in it. We both looked at each other and said ***.I handed him the gun and asked him what did you do to it and he said nothing but put the grip's on. I said it had to be something else but he stuck to it and said that he thought the screw in the grip was interfering with the magazine release button a little. Needless to say he is very happy with it and I told him I did not want to shoot it anymore that I thought it was dangerous. Oh well.

That's really interesting! Glocks don't have screws, and Crimson Trace lasers for Glocks don't come in "sets". :eek:

mljdeckard
November 20, 2012, 09:21 AM
There is actual legal precedent for a weapon malfunctioning at a public range and going full-auto, and the shooter being charged. Don't think for one second that no one who commited a crime in solitude has ever been caught.

eldon519
November 20, 2012, 12:58 PM
Someone got caught and convicted for trying to make a illegal submachine gun. He was trying to build a semi auto Sten with a full auto receiver and had a full auto bolt in the background of the picture. He disappeared from the forum he was on and people were wondering where he went till his wife came on and told them. The BATF saw his picture and arrested and convicted him.

I would never admit to a crime no matter how big or small somewhere where Law Enforcement would or could see it.

Bingo. I never meant to imply people get arrested simply for writing on the internet. Rather if someone puts it out there that he is doing illegal things, he's supplying evidence toward fulfilling the probable cause burden required to get a warrant. With a warrant, there is nothing stopping LEO of the appropriate jurisdiction from finding your illegal toys and changing the path of your life for the foreseeable future. Really the main thing protecting someone is the fact that most LEO agencies already have plenty to keep them busy. I'd sure feel sheepish if I went to the pen for trying to play Cool Guy on the internet. No doubt it doesn't happen a lot, but it doesn't seem like a very worthwhile chance to take from a risk-reward perspective.

ny32182
November 20, 2012, 01:25 PM
My M&P doubled a handful of times when its very intermittent failure to reset the sear issues started after 13k rounds without a cleaning under the sear. I believe the cause was that the sear reset just enough to catch the striker while the slide was closing, but not enough to hold it through the jarring of the slide going fully forward. In this case, trigger is still pulled, so the striker block safety is out of the way, striker releases on slide closing, gun fires again. In all instances the timer recorded an .08 split though I think it was actually less than that (dont' think the timer was set to record anything less than that) and both bullets hit the target at 7-10 yards.

A cleaning under the sear fixed the issue immediately. I can easily see how bubba gun-smith taking too much material off the sear could generate this same effect.

hentown
November 20, 2012, 01:31 PM
There is actual legal precedent for a weapon malfunctioning at a public range and going full-auto, and the shooter being charged. Don't think for one second that no one who commited a crime in solitude has ever been caught.
__________________

I"m familiar with that case. For a number of reasons, it's not germane to this thread.

StrikeFire83
November 20, 2012, 02:00 PM
Actually, people DO get arrested for writing on the internet, IF they communicate a threat. Check out 18 U.S.C 845(c).

I'm a third year law student and I worked for a US Attorney's office last year. I worked on quite a few gun cases with the BATFE. If I had a firearm that was malfunctioning and "going full auto" I'd send it back to the manufacturer to be repaired. If that didn't fix the problem, I'd ask the manufacturer for a replacement. If the manufacturer refused, I'd send the firearms to BATFE or a local PD to be destroyed.

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