Doesn't the military use pistol grips on 870


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JBrady555
November 14, 2012, 11:45 AM
I have a question about pistol grip stocks on shotguns. It seems like the majority of people on various gun forums seem to think that the stock configuration is better than "upgrading" to a piston grip style stock. Personally I agree, but why does the military 870s all seem to have stocks with pistol grips built in. I could be wrong about this but from the research that I've done, all the pictures I have found of 870s in the military have these type of stocks. Why do they think they are better while civilians think they are not?

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MIL-DOT
November 14, 2012, 11:54 AM
I think they prefer them because they ARE "better." I personally like the traditional stock better, but that's just a personal preference based on asthetics, not function or practicality. The stock/pistol grip combo unit allows the most verstility,the shooter can shoot from the shoulder, but also can hold the gun closer in, which I imagine can sometimes be preferred in a limited space environment, like room-to-room fighting. The PG also affords a firmer,more stable platform when shooting from the hip than a traditional stock does.

heavyhands
November 14, 2012, 12:27 PM
I think most of the negative responses are with SG with just a pistol grip and no stock. As far as I know there are no issues with pistol grips with a stock among civilians- in fact I think they are very popular. Also the mil use the SG for breaching and the pistol grip provides for more angles for a better shot.

jmr40
November 14, 2012, 12:46 PM
The only purpose the shotgun is serving currently with the military is to blow locks off doors. Most soldiers who carry them also carry their M-4 carbine as their primary weapon. The Pistol grip only option along with a shorter barrel makes for a smaller package to carry around and serves its purpose. A PGO option for most other uses is a bad idea. The pistol grip in conjunction with a regular stock, AR pattern, is actually a good idea.

JBrady555
November 14, 2012, 01:06 PM
thanks for the responses

Fred Fuller
November 14, 2012, 01:11 PM
Doesn't the military use pistol grips on 870

Not on all of them, no. Not even on a majority of the ones I've seen. Most had conventional stocks.

I'm not even sure how many 870s are left on the books at this point...

Ehtereon11B
November 14, 2012, 05:28 PM
I haven't seen any 870s in my time of service. Every shotgun we use are Mossberg 500 variants. Since we use them almost exclusively for door breaching, they come with pistol grips and no shoulder stock.

kayak-man
November 14, 2012, 06:05 PM
Mil-Dot,

I respectfully disagree with your statement that pistol grip/shoulder stocks are superior.

The stock/pistol grip combo unit allows the most versatility,the shooter can shoot from the shoulder, but also can hold the gun closer in

Do you mean that more AR style stocks are collapsible "__ Position" and that is why they are easier to hold close, because you can change the length of pull and overall length? or are you talking about tucking the stock under your armpit?

I see no reason why you could not hold the shotgun in such a matter with a conventional stock.

The PG also affords a firmer,more stable platform when shooting from the hip than a traditional stock does.

When shooting form the hip, I find that any type of AR style stock gets in the way more than a conventional rifle/shotgun stock. Personally, I think its also a little slower to bring the gun to bear with an AR style stock, not much slower, but a little.

I think there are some areas where a conventional stock actually performs better than an AR style stock. The two that come to mind are shooting supine, and reloading.

I haven't had a chance to play around with shooting a pistol gripped shotgun from the supine position, but a with the conventional stock, it was pretty ergonomic. It looks like the grip angle of a pistol grip shotgun would bend the wrist at an uncomfortable angle.

As far as reloading, if you bring the muzzle up and rotate the gun like you would a pistol or AR, the conventional stock keeps everything in line with the forearm. Now, your just holding the weight of the gun, and allowing the stock to provide a little bit of leverage against the fore arm. If you have a pistol grip, its still doable, but I IMHO it puts more torque on the wrist, and its harder to get the stock to comfortable line up with the wrist.


That said, if you have a way to run the gun that works well for you, that's really all that matters.

YMMV

JBrady... sorry about hijacking your thread...

Chris "the Kayak-Man" Johnson

ScrapMetalSlug
November 14, 2012, 06:12 PM
Most of the time the shotguns remained in the shipping container or packed under a bunch of gear in the back of the truck. They were all mossbergs that usually only came out for sensitive item inventories. They had pistol grips, but were only used for breaching. The only exception in our unit was some of the husky drivers carried shotguns because the space inside the husky was so cramped.

dprice3844444
November 14, 2012, 06:23 PM
standard stock is easier to butt stroke with

leadcounsel
November 14, 2012, 11:28 PM
The Mossy and Remy 12 gauges do frequently have pistol grips. They are almost exclusively used for breaching locks/doors/hinges, etc.

Compact, light, etc. Soldiers also have their own rifles and have many others stacked on the walls with rifles.

Virginian
November 15, 2012, 07:52 AM
Don't forget the military traded in the M-14 for the M-16, and the 1911 Colt for the 9mm Beretta, so don't get too enamored of them. Remington, Winchester, Browning, Ithaca, and Benelli all declined to submit a bid the last time they went looking for a pump gun. Mossberg "won" that bid. Not taking away from them; the gun met all requirements, but apparently the rest figured they are more trouble than they are worth.

Uniquedot
November 15, 2012, 02:51 PM
Mossberg "won" that bid. Not taking away from them; the gun met all requirements, but apparently the rest figured they are more trouble than they are worth.

The mil spec was a sheet of paper. None of the other manufacturers met the specs on that paper because the mossbergs were the only ones with dual extractors and therefore there was no other competition. The guns are more or less disposable commodities as they were not required to pass more than 3000 rounds in testing. The loose tolerances in the mossbergs are probably a plus too when it comes to functioning in the mud. I'm sure the other manufacturers would have loved to have won that contract, but they didn't meet the spec requirements on paper. It has turned out good for mossberg as they have been able to invest greatly in R&D in other areas.

Fred Fuller
November 15, 2012, 03:04 PM
they have been able to invest greatly in R&D in other areas

Indeed...

http://www.mossberg.com/product/shotguns-pump-action-500-special-purpose-
chainsaw/50460

http://www.mossberg.com/product/shotguns-pump-action-500-special-purpose-rolling-thunder/55605

http://www.mossberg.com/product/shotguns-pump-action-500-special-purpose-road-blocker/50591

(Couldn't resist...)

Uniquedot
November 15, 2012, 04:43 PM
(Couldn't resist...)

You know i was going to mention that some of the R&D was totally wasted on crap like that, but decided to leave it alone. Looks like they are now putting most of their advertising efforts into the flex system.

FIVETWOSEVEN
November 15, 2012, 10:40 PM
I think the main reason why they use pistol grips is because they use rifles with pistol grips. Allows them to adapt quicker to the shotgun if it has a similar feel.

Drail
November 15, 2012, 10:46 PM
Generally a long heavy gun is much easier hold up ready for immediate use with only one hand if it has a pistol grip type stock. It also gives a little more control when moving through doorways, etc. If I am not restricted in a confined space with hallways and doors I much prefer a straight stock. But I learned to shoot long before pistol grip stocks came into vogue. One other advantage of the pistol grip is that it keeps your strong hand thumb out of your face during recoil. I still have fond memeories of one instructor who would smack you upside the head any time he saw you gripping the stock with your thumb on the same side of the stock as your face. He wanted the thumb on the off side. He was right of course.

RetiredUSNChief
November 15, 2012, 11:03 PM
I rather suspect that the military experience/use would dictate the particulars on the shotgun.

In 20 years aboard submarines, not once did I ever see or handle a shotgun with pistol grips. And the Remington 870 and Mossberg 500 were both used aboard the various submarines I served aboard. (The Mossberg 500 was most common.)

Personally, I don't see the purpose of putting pistol grips on a shotgun of this particular design (pump action). I do not see how it would improve performance.

Now, there ARE other designs of shotguns used in the military, some of which do have pistol grips. And there may even be variants on the Mossberg 500 or Remington 870 which have pistol grips.

Pronghorn19
November 16, 2012, 02:10 AM
I think that it also has something to do with ease of learning/use. I shoot skeet and trap leagues, and you see new shooters struggling to properly hold the shotguns all the time. It takes a feel and a comfort with the weapon to really get good at shooting it. The "traditional" stock configuration is harder to master, but once you've got it, it's much nicer. (in my opinion) Pistol grips on rifles and shotguns make holding and aiming easier. I find that especially with shotguns it's bulky, gets in the way, and limits maneuverability. However, it's much easier to just pick up and use with minimal training.

AI&P Tactical
November 16, 2012, 02:37 AM
Stock like the Speedfeed III, IV, IV and the M-4 type stocks are superior on a fighting shotgun. The reason have been hashed on on every forum out there. They also are superior when it comes to weapons retention. A weapon with a conventional stocked weapon can be taken from you in a second. The above stocks give you a different way to hold the weapon so you can hang on to the thing in a struggle. Been there, done that and got the T-shirt.

psyopspec
November 16, 2012, 10:24 AM
Superiority is dictated by purpose. If you spend most of your time in an armored vehicle where space is a commodity, then PGO starts to make more sense. Particularly if you're a turret gunner and may be called upon to wield the weapon from a small space made smaller by your body armor and crew-served weapon to engage a target at a very awkward angle.

Doors have already been mentioned, so I won't go there. Some other uses: MPs at Camp Bucca Iraq (prison camp, now closed) carried shotguns with a regular butt stock and bean bag rounds for prison population control.

More recently, I served with units in Afghanistan who issued PGO shotguns to the turret gunners, with 2 3/4 00 buck. PGO is much easier to maneuver in a vehicle if a threat pops up too close to use the crew-served weapon. Additionally, those good folks also were issued M-4s and could more easily sling away (or buckle with quick release) to get the shotgun out of the way.

Brasso
November 16, 2012, 11:39 AM
I much prefer a standard stock. I find the pistol grip configuration to be much slower to shoulder, manipulate, and shoot. Just a negative in every way. Some folks will say that it's harder for someone to grab it out of your hands if it has a pistol grip. I don't believe that to be true.

Standard stock all the way. I do wish the manufacturers would make the stocks adjustable. I think that for the majority of people, me included, a 14" LOP is way too much. 13" is probably better for most. An adjustable butt pad for example would solve many problems.

Skribs
November 16, 2012, 04:25 PM
I've shot with straight stock and with a pistol grip+stock, and I much prefer the straight stock on a shotgun. It prevents a smaller verticle line and it's easier to load shells into, IMO. I can see why a pistol grip would be preferred by people who are used to shooting modern rifles, however.

MCgunner
November 16, 2012, 06:00 PM
I'm a wing shooter. Pistol grips suck for that. I prefer a properly fitted (shimmed or custom) standard stock and use my dove gun, a 20" 20 gauge SxS Spartan, as my home defense. This gun is extremely quick on target and I've lad LOTS of practice with it killing dinner. I just stick 3 buck in it for HD duty after decocking it.

Home defense is NOT the same as combat. Folks don't seem to understand this. All the slings and barrel shrouds and stuff just get in the way on a HD gun. Maybe a light, but I'd rather just carry my mini mag. Actually, I use the safe room strategy, don't wanna go lookin' around the house if I can help it. But, there's always that bump in the night that doesn't warrant calling the law over. The little coach gun is REALLY compact for this.

snooperman
November 17, 2012, 10:42 AM
+1 on what MCgunner said.. Keep it simple for home defense. That said, some swat teams etc use pistol grip shoulder stocks because at times they have to move about using one hand on the shotgun while the other hand is used to manipulate a door etc and the pistol grip shoulder stock affords better control and can be fired using one hand as well.

MCgunner
November 17, 2012, 11:02 AM
+1 on what MCgunner said.. Keep it simple for home defense. That said, some swat teams etc use pistol grip shoulder stocks because at times they have to move about using one hand on the shotgun while the other hand is used to manipulate a door etc and the pistol grip shoulder stock affords better control and can be fired using one hand as well.

Another reason I like the little coach gun, can one hand it by my side and it's well short of the floor. I can hold it behind my side as I move to keep it out of reach of a perp trying to disarm me, whip it up one handed if need be to fire at close range. It's almost like a big handgun. In 20 gauge, recoil isn't that bad, either, not like a 12 coach gun. Also, I can easily switch from lefty to righty (yes, I can shoot right handed) this way to shoot around opposite side cover.

Slings that SWAT officers wear are a joke when you need the gun right now. They'll just be something to hang up on the night stand with. The SWAT officer gets dressed before entering the fray. YOU will be awakened rudely and the BGs aren't going to give you time to get your shotgun properly slung.

d2wing
November 17, 2012, 02:06 PM
Having used both types on combat rifles and hunting, I find the conventional stock easier to use and quicker to mount from most carry positions. For instance if you are at port arms and quicky mount you shotgun or rifle you do not have to change right hand position as you would on a pistol grip. The pistol grip is necessary due to the design of the M-16. The handle was needed to carry the M-16 all day. No handle needed on an M-14 because of the stock. Try bird hunting with a pistop grip stock. It gets old fast.

MCgunner
November 17, 2012, 10:25 PM
That's a good point, D2. The pistol grip was not really put on the M16 for better ergos or handling. Just that, with the design, it had to be there to work.

I've been hunting with my best handling, fastest rifle lately, a straight gripped lever action M92 in .357 magnum. That gun is such a pleasure in the field.

cold100onhw1
November 18, 2012, 11:40 AM
The only shotguns I have seen in the military are M500s. They all had the PGO stock in the arms room but there are regular stock that can be switched out. I have only seen shotguns used to kill wild dogs but that was in a very rural area with no doors to breach and we didnt use trucks.

psyopspec
November 19, 2012, 10:49 AM
The handle was needed to carry the M-16 all day.

The first day that we checked out M-16A2s from the arms room in basic training, they took us into a classroom for weapons orientation. After going over safety, the first comment the drill sergeant made was, "This is the carry handle. You will not use it for that purpose." He was right.

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