M&P Sport and sustained combat


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Saddlebag Preacher
November 14, 2012, 03:45 PM
OK, I'm not a conspiracy theory specialist, but I have a question. I've read all the posts here about the M&P Sport, the price and the value for the money. IF, and I say IF, something ever happens, I have some good hunting rifles (The original assault rifles called lever actions and a Mauser 98) and shotguns along with some good handguns.

I haven't really seen cheap surplus 5.56 ammo listed like I used to. But, IF I bought one and HAD to use it as a battle rifle and not a range gun, would it hold up?

No, I'm not talking desert storm sand and such, but can it hold it's own if a bunch of farmers felt they needed to protect themselves against an armed mob and sustained gunfight in rain, humidity heat and cold?

I can't afford $1000.00 or more for a combat rifle, but I can afford the S&W.

Just tossing it out there.

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Bartholomew Roberts
November 14, 2012, 03:58 PM
The S&W Sport is in many ways a better rifle than most of the rifles that used to be considered top notch 10 years ago. My big concern would be the lack of dust cover on the Sport - although I think you can now buy a cheap disposable plastic one for it. Having said that, I'd take the Sport over a lever gun or Mauser 98; but then I have a lot of time with ARs and trigger time/confidence is probably much more important than type of firearm for what you describe.

meanmrmustard
November 14, 2012, 05:05 PM
OK, I'm not a conspiracy theory specialist, but I have a question. I've read all the posts here about the M&P Sport, the price and the value for the money. IF, and I say IF, something ever happens, I have some good hunting rifles (The original assault rifles called lever actions and a Mauser 98) and shotguns along with some good handguns.

I haven't really seen cheap surplus 5.56 ammo listed like I used to. But, IF I bought one and HAD to use it as a battle rifle and not a range gun, would it hold up?

No, I'm not talking desert storm sand and such, but can it hold it's own if a bunch of farmers felt they needed to protect themselves against an armed mob and sustained gunfight in rain, humidity heat and cold?

I can't afford $1000.00 or more for a combat rifle, but I can afford the S&W.

Just tossing it out there.
Yes, it'd hold up. I'm one such farmer, and I find it wholly apt.

MikePaiN
November 14, 2012, 06:49 PM
Is there something wrong with being "conspiracy theory specialist" that you felt you had to mention it? Just didn't want to get identified with all those tin hat wearin' nut jobs...did ya ;)

RainDodger
November 14, 2012, 06:57 PM
In my opinion, my Sport is every bit as good quality as my Colt... in fact I like the melonite-treated barrel more than the Colt's chrome bore.

I believe the Sport would hold up just as well or better than most others.

jmr40
November 14, 2012, 07:04 PM
I something really bad happens it will last long enough. If things get to the point that you really need a better gun, there will be better ones laying on the ground to pick up.

Elm Creek Smith
November 14, 2012, 07:15 PM
A Ruger Mini-14 will hold up, of course, you may never find your brass...

ECS

Jackal
November 14, 2012, 07:41 PM
A Ruger Mini-14 will hold up
This. Much better rifle for adverse conditions. Built lose enough to allow some grime in the workings and still retain at least 2moa accuracy (new ones). Its a M1 carbine in .223. Also, Mini's love the sand/dirt. Thats why its the #1 ranch rifle ever made (hence its name). Those farmers and ranch hands dont pay too much attention to the cleanliness of their rifles. Its a tool.

BSA1
November 14, 2012, 07:57 PM
Just where or more importantly do you grow anyway? :evil:

You really don't have to answer this question.:rolleyes:

Welding Rod
November 14, 2012, 08:19 PM
A Ruger Mini-14 will hold up, of course, you may never find your brass...

ECS

That was funny!

Actually I wondered if the Mini brass ejection was a design feature... so the shooter could take out advisaries in two directions at once?

Sorry OP.

meanmrmustard
November 14, 2012, 08:27 PM
This. Much better rifle for adverse conditions. Built lose enough to allow some grime in the workings and still retain at least 2moa accuracy (new ones). Its a M1 carbine in .223. Also, Mini's love the sand/dirt. Thats why its the #1 ranch rifle ever made (hence its name). Those farmers and ranch hands dont pay too much attention to the cleanliness of their rifles. Its a tool.
Then, by this line of thinking, wouldn't an AKM be superior still? Still battle accurate, ridiculously reliable, and cheap to feed. Either the AR or AK has the Mini beat, especially for the price they command.

For what a Mini costs, I can get a good AR or a great AK variant. I pay plenty attention to, not only cleanliness, but value per dollar. In this regard, the Mini sucks.

stubbicatt
November 14, 2012, 08:54 PM
Oh by the Lords of Hades... Not again.

I dunno, but if "extended combat" arises, you better hope you have a bunch of friends, as one guy by himself presents a comparatively easy target, and life expectancy is measured not in hours, even minutes, not even the number of magazines you empty, but the number of rounds in one magazine left when your rifle goes silent.

MistWolf
November 14, 2012, 09:52 PM
The only way to know if your AR will hold up is to go shoot it. Go take a three day carbine course and see if it survives

But ammo costs money, doesn't it?

MachIVshooter
November 14, 2012, 10:17 PM
A Ruger Mini-14 will hold up

This. Much better rifle for adverse conditions.

Actually, it isn't. It may seem very robust, but people who have really put them through their paces found that the AR was, in fact, a more durable and reliable firearm.

I like my mini, but if I had to choose between it and one of my ARs, I wouldn't even have to think about it.

Texan Scott
November 14, 2012, 10:17 PM
My biggest concern with an AR and "sustained combat" is not how long the situation lasts, or even the elements, but ROUNDS FIRED. A combat loadout of 300 rounds sounds like a lot, but it's only 4 mags on your belt and 6 in your armor carrier
It's also enough carbon fouling to cause serious fouling issues in a lot of guns.

If you and your farmer buddies are getting into 2-300 rounds / shooter firefights, something is badly wrong already.

Bartholomew Roberts
November 14, 2012, 10:58 PM
It's also enough carbon fouling to cause serious fouling issues in a lot of guns.

Maybe; but an AR isn't one of those rifles. You can find multiple examples of an AR going 10,000 rounds plus with no cleaning. Carbon fouling isn't going to be an issue with the Sport. You'd run out of ammo long before you choked it out with carbon fouling. External debris in the BCG/gas expansion area may be a problem though if there is enough of it. That is why I would want some kind of dust cover.

1911 guy
November 15, 2012, 12:07 AM
If the dustcover and forward assist are a big deal to you (If forced to pick one I'd opt for the dustcover) you could always pick up a $90 upper at your leisure and rebuild your upper on it. From the reviews I've seen, the S&W Sport seems to be a great value and if I were in the market for another I'd seriously consider it.

Even better is the recommendation to take a carbine class with it and see how it fares for you. You might decide to keep it as-is because it runs fine. If not, you'll know the bugs of your particular rifle.

HDCamel
November 15, 2012, 12:13 AM
My biggest concern with an AR and "sustained combat" is not how long the situation lasts, or even the elements, but ROUNDS FIRED. A combat loadout of 300 rounds sounds like a lot, but it's only 4 mags on your belt and 6 in your armor carrier
It's also enough carbon fouling to cause serious fouling issues in a lot of guns.

If you and your farmer buddies are getting into 2-300 rounds / shooter firefights, something is badly wrong already.
Carbon fouling is actually pretty much a non-issue. ARs run dirty with the best of them, they just don't like to run dry.

Besides, 2-300 is almost nothing. Most ARs will run at least 10 times that before running into incomplete feeds which, on most ARs (though incidentally, not on the M&P Sport that OP is asking about), can be addressed with the forward assist. Anything else is probably either magazine related or can be solved by spraying down the BCG with some lubrication.


So, Saddlebag Preacher, if you're that worried just make sure you have a can of your favorite CLP with you when the shooting starts.

Texan Scott
November 15, 2012, 01:12 AM
My point is, he's really got no chance of ruining a real modern rifle defending a farm.

Of course, I know nothing about civilian ARs... met a few armory maintained M-16s that choked on less, though.

ShooterGuy
November 15, 2012, 02:23 AM
Personally, I'd go with a pair of decent AKs over an AR (simmer down AR fans, I like them too), in my experience AKs dont care if they're dry, or wet, or dirty, decent ammo is cheaper, and you could arm you AND a buddy for the price of a good AR. Just my .02 cents on your zombie apocalypse scenario.

meanmrmustard
November 15, 2012, 07:17 AM
Besides, 2-300 is almost nothing. Most ARs will run at least 10 times that before running into incomplete feeds which, on most ARs (though incidentally, not on the M&P Sport that OP is asking about), can be addressed with the forward assist.
False.

The Sport has scalloped cuts in the bolt carrier that allow full closure of the bolt with the shooters thumb.

sansone
November 15, 2012, 07:24 AM
op, just keep it clean & lubed, it will last

Hit_Factor
November 15, 2012, 07:30 AM
I run a complete season of 3 gun matches without cleaning my AR, just add oil and clean the optics.

If i get into bad weather at a match I will clean the rifle.

These ARs are far more durable than 300 or 3000 rounds without cleaning.

CharlieDeltaJuliet
November 15, 2012, 07:34 AM
Guns and Ammo put out a magazine a few months ago dedicated to the AR. It was a solid red book with the HK 416 or MR556 on the cover(cannot recall with looking). It had an interresting write up on the M&P Sport. They used it in desert conditions, without cleaning it for a few thousand rounds. It never hick-uped or mis-fed or anything. The writer of the article was weary of the rifle until he put it through his torture tests.

Now this is just one of many torture tests that people have done to this rifle. S&W got it right with the Sport. I personally do not own one, but I would not be afraid to pick one up and let my life depend on it. Too many I know, have bought them, and love them.

Saddlebag Preacher
November 15, 2012, 11:07 AM
"Oh by the Lords of Hades... Not again."

Did I miss the first go round?

I've been mulling over buying an AR platform or not and all the "stuff" hitting the fan discussions on here so that was the basis for my question. I can be self sustaining.

When we were out of power for 2 - 3 weeks from the ice storm 2 years ago, we out in the country helped each other, not go "NUTS" and depending on the gov't. But after hurricane Sandy, I understand we are seeing a miniture insight about those who can't or won't help themselves. Armed gangs are roaming the streets at night in places (according to the news).

So this was a serious question to a firearm purchase. If the grid went down for whatever reason and gas is unavaiable, I need to protect what I have until order is restored. There is fuel, feed and diesil on my place, as well as water and game. So I'm not thinking "end of the world", but eventually someone would star looking outside the city.

I reallyb thank you folks who have given me good advice.

desidog
November 15, 2012, 11:45 AM
In what scenario does an angry mob care to go out to a rural farm? ...and care to engage in a prolonged action....when the farmer doesn't even have enough loot to afford a $1K AR. So, I'm guessing there's no Rolls Royce in the garage. I mean, what's the imaginary motivation?

OP, not to say you don't want a nice rifle for use on your farm; but to start your criteria with the delusion that a mob would care enough about you or your farm is a serious stretch.

Have you heard of the literary device called "paralipsis"? It's been used since ancient Greece.

/end rant.

CharlieDeltaJuliet
November 15, 2012, 12:10 PM
Well Saddlebag Preacher, I will never question any reason anyone wants a firearm. Frankly it isn't my concern. I would have never believed that turmoil could strike domestically, until I had seen first hand what happened after Katrina. I will not ever roll my eyes for anyone's reasons or fears. Good for you for wanting one for defense. The M&P Sport is a fine rifle and I honestly believe it will serve you well if ever the time comes. As with any, practice, practice, and more practice will be your best friend. Let me know what you decide.

timfromohio
November 15, 2012, 12:43 PM
"In what scenario does an angry mob care to go out to a rural farm? ...and care to engage in a prolonged action....when the farmer doesn't even have enough loot to afford a $1K AR. So, I'm guessing there's no Rolls Royce in the garage. I mean, what's the imaginary motivation?"

Read news and blog accounts of what happened during Argentina during the last decade as they underwent economic collapse. Ferfal's blog is a great place to start. A rural farm, if even moderately isolated, is an easy target. What might they want? Food, fuel, tools, tangible resources.

Regarding the sport - I decided on them after a prolonged mental debate going back and forth between a sport and a mini-14 (newer series). Folks on the internet always gripe about the price of a mini and its poor accuracy. I found the price of the rifle itself very competitve (you can get a brand new tactical from CDNN for $599) and the accuracy great according to people that actual owned them and bench tested them - any limiation on accuracy would probably be due to me, not the mini. I decided on the sport due simply to parts availability and ease of parts replacement. It's my understanding that it's far more difficult to replace a firing pin in a mini for example. Everybody seems to have an AR, parts are ubiquitous, and my neighbor has a side business building custom AR's and would help me out.

So, I think you dead nuts on with motivation and couldn't go wrong with the sport.

Bartholomew Roberts
November 15, 2012, 12:52 PM
In what scenario does an angry mob care to go out to a rural farm? ...and care to engage in a prolonged action....when the farmer doesn't even have enough loot to afford a $1K AR. So, I'm guessing there's no Rolls Royce in the garage. I mean, what's the imaginary motivation?

Actually, farm equipment can be as expensive as a Rolls Royce and is not infrequently stolen - tractors, combines, trailers, livestock - all of these things have value and if you need them to operate a farm, it doesn't leave a lot of spare cash to plan for less probable contingencies.

MachIVshooter
November 15, 2012, 01:01 PM
Actually, farm equipment can be as expensive as a Rolls Royce and is not infrequently stolen - tractors, combines, trailers, livestock - all of these things have value and if you need them to operate a farm, it doesn't leave a lot of spare cash to plan for less probable contingencies.

Yup. A Massey 8690 tractor runs $245K.

http://motoburg.com/images/massey-ferguson-8690-06.jpg

Other large farm equipment like that can easily cost more per unit than the average house. Most people have no appreciation for how expensive industrial and agricultural machinery is.

jdh
November 15, 2012, 01:04 PM
If you are that worried about a little dust getting in the action as it hangs in the rack in your truck window just put a piece of painters tape over the port with one of the ends folded back over to form a rip off tab.

timfromohio
November 15, 2012, 01:07 PM
Listen firsthand:


http://www.thesurvivalpodcast.com/episode-781-fernando-ferfal-aguirre-on-surviving-an-economic-collapse

http://www.thesurvivalpodcast.com/episode-846-fernando-ferfal-aguirre-returns-to-tsp

Robert101
November 15, 2012, 01:24 PM
The OP's question is valid in my mind. He simply wants to know if the M&P would withstand a gun fight if needed. I agree that it would. As some suggested, testing the rifle with a 1 or 2 day course OR just fire 300 rounds throught it to confirm. Shoot to test contributes to the fun of firearms. I know you didn't ask but this thought crossed my mind......... Living on a farm with wide open space,I would want something with a little more range to it, say a 7.62X51MM or .308 LR. I'd go more of the battle rifle fit.

lemaymiami
November 15, 2012, 01:32 PM
Read all the replies, most were valid... Considered the scenario, and yes, there might come a time when defending your holdings becomes a necessity (hurricane Andrew is long enough ago that most may not realize just how bad things got down here afterwards.... thank heavens I lived north of that area....). Reliability as well as utility are prime considerations in a weapons purchase for defensive purposes -and it's very smart to consider them long before the issue becomes reality.

As for myself, a Vietnam vet, and former cop.... all things considered, when it comes to defending your holdings, I'd rather be somewhere else.... I've got a pretty good idea of what it might actually require and I'd really like to live the rest of my years without such stuff. I really did like the part that you'll be able to find your choice of weapons "laying around" if a real conflict occurs. The dead and dying won't even notice.

Saddlebag Preacher
November 15, 2012, 01:35 PM
Gee, haven't you seen all the end world, alien invasion, zombie, power out for 15 years shows on TV, they gotta be real..:banghead:

OK, before this gets silly, I was just asking about the real world durability of the gun. I may have mispoke about the mob, but I think a real possibility of the city hoopdie-gang pulling up in a couple of cars with 5 or 6 guys carrying some gas cans and their street bought sk's and ak's headed for my 200 gal gravity fed gas storage tank. I'm not really scared of anything, just wanted to be a little more prepared.

Look, I see people getting shot EVERY night in Louisville and the weapons used are always more than I can afford. They show the glocks, sigs, and recently high capacity shotguns and AK's seem to be the choice now with taped together mags. So I'd be a little behind with my Markin 336 or my Auto 12 guage. I'm not talking about fighting a war, just an armed tresspass.

And yes, my neighbors are thinking the same thing. We already carry CCW, some of us have military/LE training, but we are getting older so upgrading is a reasonable thing.

And yes, I have a farm and can't afford $1000.00 right now. That's the real world, drought this year..so on and so on. I'm sure eventually the mall ninja's would eventually realize that McDonalds uses beef, and beef comes from cows, and cows come from....gasp...a farm.:eek:

I'm sure it will never happen, I trust in the One who created me, but I just think preperation is good.

Thanks for the replys.

ClickClickD'oh
November 15, 2012, 02:18 PM
Depending on who you talk to, an M&P sport will either run for 10K rounds like a flawless top without so much as walking near a bottle of remoil... or it will jam up solid halfway through a 100 round magazine...

Personally, knowing that the weapon came originally without certain features that were later added in to resolve issues... and then were taken back out to save money during manufacturing... I'd want the features.

goalie
November 15, 2012, 07:57 PM
If you make it past the first gunfight you'll have more than enough options to choose from.

But don't let common sense get in the way of any SHTF fantasy scenarios......

Dr.Rob
November 15, 2012, 08:18 PM
I don't doubt people are running M&P rifles in competition.

S&W rifles look like a god buy for the money. There are cheaper ways to get into an AR but none involve a warranty.

Mauserguy
November 15, 2012, 08:21 PM
I saw Los Angeles on fire, so wanting to prepare seems reasonable to me.

What I don't get, though is the comment, "...McDonalds uses beef...". Now that's crazy talk.
Mauserguy

meanmrmustard
November 15, 2012, 09:05 PM
Depending on who you talk to, an M&P sport will either run for 10K rounds like a flawless top without so much as walking near a bottle of remoil... or it will jam up solid halfway through a 100 round magazine...

Personally, knowing that the weapon came originally without certain features that were later added in to resolve issues... and then were taken back out to save money during manufacturing... I'd want the features.
Do you believe a forward assist and dust cover, plus a couple cents worth of chrome lining are worth several hundred dollars?

I prefer Melonite, and have never used not needed FA or DC.

Keep the features.

K1500
November 15, 2012, 09:42 PM
A mini is probably better for neglect. By this I mean riding around in the dusty cab of truck, no PMCS/lube for an extended period of time. AR is probably better for abuse (think high round count but reasonable use of lube and cleaning). For 99% of all uses, either will suffice nicely.

SpentCasing
November 18, 2012, 07:08 PM
while a sport very well may hold up why settle for a cost cutting bonanza when a PSA can be had for similar money without sacrificing sub-optimal material usage or corner cutting testing?

doesn't make sense to me at this day and age.

while I absolutely understand budget I also understand value.

snakeman
November 18, 2012, 07:15 PM
I live on a ranch in west texas, so this may not apply to you. I haul my ar around everywhere on the ranch. It rides on the 4 wheeler and in my truck. It goes a while without being cleaned. This is an extremely dusty environment and an ar without a dust cover becomes useless pretty darn quick. If I ever leave the dust cover open by accident when I'm out working cattle or sheep, It won't even begin to chamber after the first shot. And before anyone chimes in with "you're probably not lubing it correctly" I use break free clp and keep it lubed properly. I'm just not one to buy something that is lacking an "important to me" part because it is 100 bucks cheaper than the next one. I believe del-ton has one similar for around the same price with a dust cover. I'd buy that one.

meanmrmustard
November 18, 2012, 07:19 PM
while a sport very well may hold up why settle for a cost cutting bonanza when a PSA can be had for similar money without sacrificing sub-optimal material usage or corner cutting testing?

doesn't make sense to me at this day and age.

while I absolutely understand budget I also understand value.
Depends on if the OP wants to wait a month.

The PSA IS NOT similar money. Close, but this isn't horseshoes or hand grenades.

CharlieDeltaJuliet
November 18, 2012, 09:00 PM
After seeing people try to get the Sport to quit running, and Guns and Ammos torture test, I am confident S&W have the rifle right. It is designed to run with no dust cover or FA. If you have not read it, check out the Guns & Ammo AR magazine (red cover with an HK MR556 on the front). They ran thousands of rounds through it with so much as wiping it down in the desert. It never faltered. The reason was explained that since S&W now makes uppers,lowers and most other parts in house, the tolerances and fit of the parts can be better than a lot of others who have to buy lowers from one of the handful of companies that make them. Who knows. I have a friend, who is an instructor and custom rifle builder, he tried to stop a Sport from running under normal to combat conditions. After a four day torture test( consisted of pouring fine sand and dirt in the action and water in the action) it kept running. It actually impressed me. He is also a veteran of the sandbox and could not believe the reliability.

To make a long story short, I have seen mil spec M-16's and M4's fail under less and I have seen some that should have failed that would not. Do I think there is a difference in these and the Sport, yes.. but the Sport is a lot tougher than I ever imagined. I would rather have a DD or HK, but the Sport has the budget reliability market pretty much covered.

mf-dif
November 18, 2012, 09:04 PM
Its going to come down to which side has more fire power than what type of rifle you have. Since the mob will probably have ARs too, whoever comes out in higher numbers flinging more lead is going to win.

taliv
November 18, 2012, 09:20 PM
that's enough for this one

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