Just Curious about Winchester M70 Metric Interest Yes..No..Maybe?


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brnmw
November 14, 2012, 04:59 PM
I quickly put this together to see if I were to send this off to Winchester and yes I am sure to get back a :neener: "Sir it will never happen... get a life package" in the mail I am just curious just how many people would really be interested in buying a "NIB" production model for the 7.62X54R.
(Also feel free to criticize any of the info included I am sure it is not all correct...I am not a professional gunsmith or builder/ designer for that matter, just an enthusiast. (Or dreamer which ever term is preferred)

Winchester Model 70 “Sporter Metric Express”

Caliber / Gauge 7.62×54mmR (.311” Diameter Bore)
Action Type Long Action
Magazine Capacity 5
Barrel Length 24"
Nominal Overall Length 44 3/8"
Nominal Length of Pull 13 3/4"
Nominal Drop at Comb n/a
Nominal Drop at Heel n/a
Nominal Weight 7 lbs. 4 oz.
Rate of Twist Rifling is 4 groove, right hand, 1 in 9 1/2" (24.1 cm.) twist for all models.
Wood Finish Satin Finish
Stock / Grip Grade I Walnut
U.S. Suggested $879.99

Cartridge dimensions
The 7.62×54mmR has 4.16 ml (64 grains H2O) cartridge case capacity. The pronounced tapering exterior shape of the case was designed to promote reliable case feeding and extraction in bolt action rifles and machine guns alike, under challenging conditions. Although the design did not help improve reliability, the cartridge's shape remains the same to the present day.

You have done it before…you can do it again! :D (Only this time in M70 format)
Russian-contract Winchester M1895 rifle, chambered for 7.62x54R Russian ammunition and fitted with bayonet lug and clip guides.
Data for Russian contract rifle:

Calibers: 7.62x54R
Action: manually operated, lever action
Overallength: 1160mm
Barrellength: 712mm
Weight: 4.10 kg empty
Magazine capacity: 5 rounds

The Winchester 1895 rifle has been developed by famous designer John Moses Browning as a hunting rifle, capable to safely handle long and powerful rifle ammunition, unsuitable for earlier Winchester lever-action rifles. Of about 426 thousands of M1895 rifles, made made by Winchester between 1895 and 1931, about 300 thousands were made on Russian military contract between 1915 and 1917. Of those, about 293 000 rifles reached the Russia before the revolution broke out. Small numbers of Winchester 1895 rifles, chambered for .30-40 Krag ammunition and fitted into military-type stocks, also were acquired between the 1897 - 98 and used by US forces during the Spanish-American war.
Compared to contemporary military-type bolt action rifles, Winchester M1895 rifles were slightly faster to operate, thanks to its lever-action system; in Russian pattern these rifles also were fitted with clip guides, which allowed for faster reloading. On the other hand, M1895 rifles were more sensitive to fouling and dirt, than the Mosin M1891 or Mauser 1898, and the lever action was less comfortable to operate when firing from prone position, so typical for XX century warfare.
The Winchester M1895 is a lever action, magazine fed rifle. The horizontally sliding bolt is locked to the receiver by the vertically sliding locking piece, which slides in the receiver grooves up to lock the bolt and down to unlock it. The bolt is locked at its rear, just behind he magazine, but the action is strong enough to safely handle such powerful cartridges as .30-06 or .405 WCF. Movement of the bolt is controlled by the manually operated lever. The interesting feature of the M1895 design is that the trigger is disconnected from internal lockwork during the reloading cycle - an useful safety feature. External hammer also provided additional visual control of the state of the rifle. The box magazine held five or six cartridges in single column, and was loaded through the top opening in the receiver; spent cartridges also were ejected to the top. All M1895 rifles except the Russian-contract ones were loaded with single rounds; Russian-contract rifles were fitted with clip guides, and accepted standard stripper clips from Russian Mosin M1891 rifle. Military-type rifles were fitted with long stocks with straight grips and short forends, as well as bayonet lugs and sling swivels. Commercial rifles were available with various styles and grades of stocks. Most M1895 rifles were witted wit open tangent rear sights and unprotected blade front sights.

So come on let’s put it back into production! :D

So really: Yes, No, Mabye and why? (Sorry no poll I want to know why... :))

(And really no it does not have to be a Winchester M70 either for those non- Winchester M70 people.) :scrutiny:

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USSR
November 14, 2012, 05:51 PM
Totally unnecessary! Just get yourself a Model 70 in 7.62x63mm.

Don

TurtlePhish
November 14, 2012, 06:02 PM
I'd totally be for one. That sounds awesome. Some Mosins shoot great with surplus; imagine how well a new-production M70 will shoot it.

Plus, it's quite a versatile cartridge for reloading.

Robert
November 14, 2012, 06:21 PM
I'll stick with my 375H&H.

Reloadron
November 14, 2012, 06:27 PM
I can walk a few blocks and buy a Winchester Model 70 chambered in 30-06. The 7.62 X 54 R is close to being on par with a 30-06 with a 150 grain bullet but comes up short of the 30-06 for case capacity and larger bullets. Toss in the fact the 7.62 X 54 R is a rimmed cartridge and as to US manufacturers likely last produced in a 150 grain bullet by Remington who discontinued production around 1950. I doubt Winchester would see a market for a Model 70 chambered in the 7.62 X 54 R cartridge.

Ron

brnmw
November 15, 2012, 08:21 AM
Totally unnecessary! Just get yourself a Model 70 in 7.62x63mm.

Even thought the .30-'06 Spfld. aka 7.62X63mm sounds cool in the metric designation I already own one and shooting 7.62X54Rmm only has the one "Metric" designation therefore making it a specialty "Metric" rifle.:D ( I guess unless we want to start referring to it as the ".30-'91 Russian". )> But that kind of sounds retarted, at least to me it does.

I guess my thoughts on it came from a conversation I had with my cousin who recently purchased a Winchester M70 in .270 Win. which I also own one of those as well and absolutely love it. One of the issues my cousin had was the price of the .270 Win. ammo and even thought there are many choices and price levels for it I suggested using the Serbian commercial grade .270 Win. for practice/ target shooting for fun and save the more expensive "Quality" grade as he puts it ammo for hunting and practice before the hunt. It made me think just how cool it would be if I had a really cool M70 with a "Quality Target/Hunting" designated scope and could have all the modern day choices of Brass Serbian SP or cheap Steel cased 7.62X54Rmm just to shoot lead down range. :)

JWF III
November 15, 2012, 08:48 AM
I guess unless we want to start referring to it as the ".30-'91 Russian".

Just call it a .31 Russian.:D Then you can say it's 1 better than the -06.

Might have an easier time with 6.5x55mm Swede and 7.5x55mm Swiss. Either loading is very accurate and I may be persuaded to get one in a target barreled version. You just don't have the access to cheap surplus ammo.

Wyman

RPRNY
November 15, 2012, 10:02 AM
.311 bore. Market size.

Very tough to convince FN to retool for a new barrel bore in a turn of the (last) century niche military cartridge when they sell oodles of rifles already in a wildly popular, similar performance, turn of the last century military cartridge and another even more modern popular military cartridge with similar performance, both at .308...You would need research showing a reasonable rate of return on investment.

Perhaps if you joined forces with the 303 supporters?

CraigC
November 15, 2012, 10:08 AM
I'd love to have a couple European metrics but I would never pay for a Model 70 in a communist cartridge. Just doesn't hold the same appeal and never will. Make it a Model 7 Mannlicher in 6.5x54MS and I'll be all over it.

brnmw
November 15, 2012, 10:15 AM
Just call it a .31 Russian. Then you can say it's 1 better than the -06.

There we go I like that, sounds better already! :)

ErieLurker
November 15, 2012, 10:32 AM
Thought this was the start of a petition to bring back the 6.5x55 Swede and 7x57 Spanish chamberings for the Model 70. Oh well...

Still, given the popularity nowadays of the old Russian 7.62x54R, may be it's time to start a petition for that?

brnmw
November 15, 2012, 10:34 AM
.311 bore. Market size.

Very tough to convince FN to retool for a new barrel bore in a turn of the (last) century niche military cartridge when they sell oodles of rifles already in a wildly popular, similar performance, turn of the last century military cartridge and another even more modern popular military cartridge with similar performance, both at .308...You would need research showing a reasonable rate of return on investment.

Perhaps if you joined forces with the 303 supporters?

Kind of wondered that myself, I do not reload yet... (no room for a decent setup as of yet) but all the US reloading components are .308" bullets I believe and I agree I doubt they will re-tool for such a rifle. I know that American made ammunition for the 7.62X54Rmm round exists but I never see it in the stores therefore I have never been able to test it in a .311" bore rifle for accuracy, etc... (Otherwise they could just re-tool the make believe M70 7.62X54R rifle barrel for the .308" and just use .308 spaced ammo but then that defeats the propose of using even surplus or cheap std. commercial .311" bullets. I am not a ballistics expert, and there may not really be that big of a difference between a .308 vs. a .311" but I bet it changes something in terms of efficiency, accuracy, etc... Like I said I have never been able to ever test the American made ammo through my Mosins, so I do not know.

brnmw
November 15, 2012, 10:55 AM
Thought this was the start of a petition to bring back the 6.5x55 Swede and 7x57 Spanish chamberings for the Model 70. Oh well...

Still, given the popularity nowadays of the old Russian 7.62x54R, may be it's time to start a petition for that?

I started this post for the 7.62X54Rmm, but it does not really need to stop there. There are plenty of popular Metric chambering that need a popularity revival. I chose the 7.62X54R simply due to the amount of ammo offered in every gun store I see (Just not the American Mftr. brands) that round is everywhere and even if you hate the M91/30 it too is all over the place. I do not see the 7.62X54R going anywhere in the "ammo bone yard" any time soon. People want choices and people are in fact buying more guns today, who says you have to use a .30-06 Spfld. or .308 Winchester because you live in America and those are the only choices you get (Not that there is anything wrong with those I own them myself as well). If I want to harvest a deer or shoot a paper target with a "NIB" M70 chambered in .303 British, or 7X57mm Mauser and it is being offered than as an American, and while I currently have that right than I will exercise that right. I really like that I see more people using something different than sticking with a std. :)

Thanks for all the posts, I was just very curious about how people would react to a "NIB" modern day rifle with a modern day tech. scope using an old military chambered rifle setup vs. simply purchasing a Soviet Era M91/30 Sniper with a PU WW2 Era scope. (Even though I did not focus on the scope as an issue, but using a modern day scope for me was a plus.)

CraigC
November 15, 2012, 11:31 AM
Who buys a $1000 bolt action deer rifle and then feeds it cheeseball foreign surplus ammo? Which is mostly really seconds, not surplus.

USSR
November 15, 2012, 11:45 AM
Even thought the .30-'06 Spfld. aka 7.62X63mm sounds cool in the metric designation I already own one...

Only one? Sheesh, there's your problem. I've got 7 .30-06's and still feel somewhat deprived.;)

Don

brnmw
November 15, 2012, 11:48 AM
There is never such a thing as having too many guns, and I do always feel "deprived" even if it is shooting: cheeseball foreign surplus ammo :)

conhntr
November 15, 2012, 05:07 PM
We dont have to worry about the cheesball foreign ammo for long; the un will save us from it before long

SlamFire1
November 15, 2012, 05:29 PM
I have had rim lock in Nagants, and those mechanisms have a cartridge interruptor to prevent that.

No, I would rather have a rimless round in a M70.

I have several 7.62 X 63 mm and a couple 7.62 X 51 M70's.

All rimless.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/M70%20pics/FNfulllengthDSCN8751.jpg

Gtscotty
November 15, 2012, 05:54 PM
+1 to what Craigc said.

I have to say, I'm not at all interested in a 7.62x54R M70... and I'm REALLY interested in M70's. I guess mostly I just don't see what the point is, the only thing the x54R really does better than the x63 and the x51 is being cheap.... And folks who are willing to pony up for a $1000 rifle should just go into the deal knowing that practice ammo is probably going to cost them at least $15 a box (assuming they don't reload... if they do then the two more pedestrian calibers will probably be cheaper to shoot).

Now if we were talking about 6.5x55 or another metric caliber that brought something new to the table then I would definitely be more interested.

Jim Watson
November 15, 2012, 08:23 PM
Agree with CraigC.
I don't think you can expect a current manufacturer to tool up for a new rifle so you can shoot cheap surplus.
The pistol shooters have been whining about this for a long time, "why doesn't somebody build a (1911, Glock, Browning, etc, etc.) to shoot 7.62x25. Which seems mostly to be limited to Bulgarian surplus these days.

Unka-Boo
November 15, 2012, 08:38 PM
A commemorative 1895 in x54R would sell better and as long as it's under $2K it'll be far cheaper than an original.

I think the guys wanting 6.5 and 7x57 are off on a better track.

CraigC
November 15, 2012, 08:53 PM
A commemorative 1895 in x54R would sell better....
My .405 was almost $1000 several years ago and again, I can't see buying such a fine rifle and then feeding it garbage. The .30-40 carbines held more appeal for me but I never got around to getting one.

meanmrmustard
November 15, 2012, 08:57 PM
.311 bore. Market size.

Very tough to convince FN to retool for a new barrel bore in a turn of the (last) century niche military cartridge when they sell oodles of rifles already in a wildly popular, similar performance, turn of the last century military cartridge and another even more modern popular military cartridge with similar performance, both at .308...You would need research showing a reasonable rate of return on investment.

Perhaps if you joined forces with the 303 supporters?
Not really a niche cartridge when it's been in military, plinking, and hunting use in one variation or another for over 120 years, longer even than the 30/06 by decades.

meanmrmustard
November 15, 2012, 08:59 PM
A commemorative 1895 in x54R would sell better and as long as it's under $2K it'll be far cheaper than an original.

I think the guys wanting 6.5 and 7x57 are off on a better track.
Why? Because they're rimless?

Guess we oughta quit making 30-30s.

Jim Watson
November 15, 2012, 09:00 PM
Hasn't been a bolt action Winchester .30-30 in some time.
I sure wish I had bought that Model 54, though; handy as my 788 is.

Unka-Boo
November 15, 2012, 09:03 PM
Why? Because they're rimless?

Guess we oughta quit making 30-30s.

1895 in regards to cartridge

6.5, 7x57 in regards to M70


My .405 was almost $1000 several years ago and again, I can't see buying such a fine rifle and then feeding it garbage. The .30-40 carbines held more appeal for me but I never got around to getting one.

Which would you buy 1st between the two, an 1895 or an M70 in 7.62x54R?

I'm not suggesting it would be a hot seller, but it would be an accurate reproduction of an existing gun. Don't wanna feed it garbage? Don't buy 70 y/o surplus.....

meanmrmustard
November 15, 2012, 09:08 PM
Hasn't been a bolt action Winchester .30-30 in some time.
I sure wish I had bought that Model 54, though; handy as my 788 is.
There are Savages still floating around. They're quite accurate.

RPRNY
November 15, 2012, 09:13 PM
Not really a niche cartridge when it's been in military, plinking, and hunting use in one variation or another for over 120 years, longer even than the 30/06 by decades.

Convince FN. It's niche for the M70 consumer base. That niche is "cheap surplus rifles and ammo". It may have 15 years on the 30-06 but precisely 1.73 gazillion more rifles in 30-06 have been sold in the $500 + dollar segment than 7.62x54r.

I'm not knocking 7.62x54r. I'm explaining why there is no business case for FN to make a mid-price segment rifle in cartridge that among its adherents is adored in part because Berdan primed 1952 Albanian surplus rounds can be purchased for $0.02 a pop...

meanmrmustard
November 15, 2012, 09:25 PM
Convince FN. It's niche for the M70 consumer base. That niche is "cheap surplus rifles and ammo". It may have 15 years on the 30-06 but precisely 1.73 gazillion more rifles in 30-06 have been sold in the $500 + dollar segment than 7.62x54r.

I'm not knocking 7.62x54r. I'm explaining why there is no business case for FN to make a mid-price segment rifle in cartridge that among its adherents is adored in part because Berdan primed 1952 Albanian surplus rounds can be purchased for $0.02 a pop...
There are other manufacturers of fine, hunting type ammo that is non corrosive.

How do you know what the M70 fan base wants? Seems that your speaking out of generality.

Gazillion is a fictitious number. FN might hit that number when they market a 54r chambered rifle to unicorns and Sasquatch...and me.

As an aside: I'd really like a modern bolt gun in 7.5x55. Probably my favorite cartridge ever.

USSR
November 15, 2012, 09:49 PM
Let's face it, the 7.62x54's appeal is that you can buy $100 Mosin Nagants. None of the cheapskates buying these $100 rifles is going to lay out $700 for a Winchester Model 70, and nobody laying out $700 for a fine rifle is going to want it chambered for a cartridge whose only appeal is cheap surplus ammo. FN is in business to make money, and they know that they wouldn't sell enough of these rifles to recoup their set up costs.

Don

rcmodel
November 15, 2012, 09:53 PM
You overlooked the fact that the Winchester Model 1895 was designed from the getgo to feed rimmed cartridges.

The Winchester Model 70 wasn't.

rc

CraigC
November 15, 2012, 11:37 PM
Not really a niche cartridge when it's been in military, plinking, and hunting use in one variation or another for over 120 years, longer even than the 30/06 by decades.
And how many sporting rifles have been produced that chamber the Russian round???


Which would you buy 1st between the two, an 1895 or an M70 in 7.62x54R?
Obviously the 1895 but since I have a choice, neither. They've been produced in the imminently more available .270WCF and .30-06 and neither has sold well. The .270 sold so poorly that the remaining guns were sent back to Miroku to become .405's. Of which mine is one and it's a wonderful shooter.

jmr40
November 16, 2012, 07:45 AM
Winchester can't make guns in common calibers fast enough to meet demand. Many of the guns listed are almost impossible to get. I can't see them stopping production and tooling up to make a special gun that will sell in very limited numbers. At least right now.

Kachok
November 16, 2012, 08:19 AM
Na, if I get a metric Model 70 it is going to be a 9.3x64, 6x5x55, or 7x57, There is no use in shooting 7.62x54, it is often low quality ammo, non-reloadable, and corrosive. The 7,62x54 holds no advantage over the 308 or 30-06, and if you did find reloadable brass you would be stuck using the much more rare .311 cal bullets. Once the surplus supplys run out I don't think anyone will want a 7.62x54, if it is no longer cheap to shoot what really is the point?

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