Will a .44 Special.......


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Archangel14
November 14, 2012, 07:26 PM
traveling at 850 fps penetrate a medium size hog (say 150 pounds, chest shot) with enough ummphfff within 100 yards to kill it DRT?

I've read through some recent posts where I get the impression that big bore bullets (.44 mag, ,45LC) traveling at sub-1,000 fps are still very good game bullets for creatures like hogs. Am I incorrect here? I always assumed that anything traveling under 1,000 fps should not be used on medium size and larger game (why I assumed this I'll never know). Any thoughts?

Thanks!

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NOLAEMT
November 14, 2012, 07:53 PM
( think it would be marginal, depending on bullet weight. if it is standard 220ish grain 44 special i would say no. 350 grain? probably would kill it, but short of artillery, just about anything will run a little ways.

firesky101
November 14, 2012, 11:49 PM
load up a heavy hard cast to standard pressure like this one. https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=88 Of course that one does say not to use in a CA bulldog. It does not take a lot of velocity to push a heavy hard cast bullet through game.

allaroundhunter
November 15, 2012, 02:31 AM
DRT with a chest shot? Not with that load.

DRT with a head/neck shot? Definitely.

mnrivrat
November 15, 2012, 02:57 AM
There is something about slow and heavy that works when it comes to dealing with this type of question.
I believe the yardage mentioned by Elmer Keith was about 600 when he killed a deer with his 44 magnum pistol. The bullet he said penitrated thru the chest cavity. A long talked about shot , and I won't get into that aspect here.

What I will say is that I certainly would not call Elmer Keith a liar, and I believe the shot was made (again the details need not be discussed here). What is applicable to your question is that penitration of the 44 Special at 100 Yards should easily match or exceed the shot of Elmer's on a deer with the 44 magnum.

The heavy bullet at even relatively low FPS has good penitration and seems to dump its energy with efficiency into the target.

Same is true for the 45 acp which is a well respected and proven self defence round.

Bottom line is that I see no reason why the 44 Special should not perform well on pigs at 100 yards.

critter
November 15, 2012, 07:02 AM
Have no fear. It will work on hogs of the size you mention given good shot placement.

CraigC
November 15, 2012, 11:28 AM
With a good 240-250gr Keith bullet, generic SWC or LBT, deader than a hammer. Although nothing is guaranteed to stop them in their tracks.

An old standby is the so-called "Skeeter load", consisting of Keith's 250gr bullet over 7.5gr Unique for 950fps. A wonderful all around load and good medicine for targets of opportunity.

allaroundhunter
November 15, 2012, 11:29 AM
Bottom line is that I see no reason why the 44 Special should not perform well on pigs at 100 yards.

Yes, it will kill them, but most of the time not DRT with a chest shot as the OP asked about.

DM~
November 15, 2012, 11:38 AM
Well, i had paper targets stapled on an old dry pallet, probably an oak pallet. I shot the target with my 4" 44spl. using factory loads at 55 yards and guess what? Those bullets bounced off the oak boards. lol

I pulled out my 4" 357 and it didn't matter what board you shot, those mid range 357's zipped right on through!

I then shot that pallet with 1200 fps loads out of my 44 mag., and all of those bullets zipped right on through too...

SO, take that info any way you want, but i'd choose my 357 loaded with mid range loads or higher EVERY time to any of my 44 spl.'s loaded to 900 and under!!

DM

mavracer
November 15, 2012, 11:43 AM
DRT not likely. 15 seconds and 50 to 100 yards away after blood pressure reaches 0 absolutely.

CraigC
November 15, 2012, 12:34 PM
i'd choose my 357 loaded with mid range loads or higher EVERY time to any of my 44 spl.'s loaded to 900 and under!!
Not me! I find the .357 to be terribly overrated and a distant second to even a mildly loaded big bore like the .44Spl. Which, I might add, will do its thang without making your ears bleed.

brnmw
November 15, 2012, 12:44 PM
Not me! I find the .357 to be terribly overrated and a distant second to even a mildly loaded big bore like the .44Spl. Which, I might add, will do its thang without making your ears bleed.

I will disagree with the .357 Mag. being overrated.... The .357 Mag. would not be as popular and as popular as long as it has if it was in fact: "Overrrated". Sorry. :scrutiny:

As for the .44 Spl. just get some Buffalo Bore 180 gr. JHP's and practice for a good clean accurate as possible shot and you will be okay.

CraigC
November 15, 2012, 12:48 PM
Popularity rarely means much. Particularly when most shooters today don't make it past the indoor range. Like I said, the .357 requires full steam velocity and expansion to be a reliable killer. The various .44's and .45's do not. Even a mild 900fps load will be a far more consistent killer than any .357 load and it won't make your ears bleed doing it.


As for the .44 Spl. just get some Buffalo Bore 180 gr. JHP's and practice for a good clean accurate as possible shot and you will be okay.
Seriously???

brnmw
November 15, 2012, 02:06 PM
Okay.. CraigC "Seriously???"> So I am going to guess that no matter what load would be suggested by myself or anyone else at this point the fact that "Practice for an accurate clean shot" is ridicules is what I am gathering from you? First off in reality I would not practice a handgun shot for anything out beyond 50-60 yds. to begin with so that really is not an issue for me anyway. So I assume you will claim a .44 Spl. at 180 gr. JHP/SP is in fact not sufficient enough to hunt Hog? (You sounded pro .44 Spl. so again with the "Seriously??? comment I am not understanding).... Oh, let's not forget the "Overrated .357 Mag." I would not want to forget that one either. (I suppose next you will tell me that a .44 Spl. and .357 Mag. are also not sufficient for taking down a 300 lb. man wearing a thick leather jacket either. Okay, sorry for putting words in your mouth that was a little out of line but still would have been a stupid statement to make.) I guess myself and everyone else who has actually taken down a hog or two in their life with a .357 Mag. or .44 Spl. just did not see it really work.:rolleyes: How about here is one for you... how about a 158 gr. Winchester Super-X .357 Mag. round I have used before that worked well, and my father years ago did take down a hog with a .44 Spl. HP load. (Sorry I don't remember what type just HP is all.) So I can't really say I understand your "Seriously???" comment. Too what are you questioning you were kind of vague, just curious? :confused:

CraigC
November 15, 2012, 02:35 PM
I said that because you recommended a lightweight jacketed self defense load for hogs. Which is a clear indication of a great many things. None of which are good.

brnmw
November 15, 2012, 04:08 PM
So you are saying that 180 gr. HP .44 Spl. load flying at a hog doing roughly 900 fps and at around 400+ ft.lbs. is going to do absolutely nothing?

***I have pulled up some numbers right quick just for a quick comparison (Not to mention some experience which is what I am sure you seem to be hinting at ;) )

As we all know not every bullet and ballistic will be identical, but...: (#'s pulled off an ammo mftr. website)

.44 Special Ammo - 180 gr. J.H.P. (1,150 fps/ 543 ft.lbs.)

.357 Magnum Ammo - 158 gr. J.H.C. (1,475fps/ 763 ft. lbs.)

10mm Ammo - 220 gr. Hard Cast - FN (1,200 fps/ 703 ft. lbs.)

Given the variables here and there they all no matter what weight or type of bullet construction all seems to be flying in and around 1,000 fps. And muster between 500-700 ft. lbs. of energy. (In my experience all of these mentioned would do serious damage to whatever the bullet hits.)> you can criticize or speculate my experience all you want... I don't care. So I guess if we really want to be absolutely scientifically accurate for the sake of further argument just take a 40mm Grenade M203 launcher attached to your AR-15
Because that .223 Rem. "64 gr." Lightweight Winchester Razorback XT/ “Hollow Point”: Velocity @ 3020fps. (okay that’s fast) 1,296 ft.lbs. @ the muzzle (which also means it's not doing that once it gets to its target mind you) is also going to fail. So you touched on "Light weight" (64 gr.) and "Self-Defense"(HP) construction. I just wanted to make sure I understood correctly. Okay, I guess I will just go back to my saved Cabela's XBOX game then.... "Oh, look I just shot a Grizzly bear in the head @ 100 yds. with a .308 Winchester and he just mauled me... I guess next time I should try the .30-'06 "That will teach him!" Its Good thing I saved my game! :rolleyes:

(Just for the record I am not criticizing anyone that plays those games, they do kind of pass the time when hunting season is over.) :)

adelbridge
November 15, 2012, 04:41 PM
You will certainly get penetration and possibly an exit wound. Big boars have a thick shield and I can often get an arrow with only 80-90 ft lbs to hit both lungs and often pass through. You are not going to create a massive wound channel with .45 lc and blood trail will be minimum. I am certain you can kill a hog with it but they tend to run and run far so good luck tracking it in the dark when they show themselves. I have been down that road before, skip all the hypothetical and try it out- I would be pissed if I spent hours in the dark and cold to come home with nothing.

brnmw
November 15, 2012, 04:48 PM
skip all the hypothetical and try it out- I would be pissed if I spent hours in the dark and cold to come home with nothing.

Right There!
(Life is a live and learn and if at first you don't succeed try again.)

Archangel14
November 15, 2012, 05:02 PM
I have to disagree with adelbridge. My experience is with smaller, faster rounds (30-06 and such) and I have no experience with a big bore rifle. But everything I'm reading leads to me believe that a 45LC moving at 1,000-1,100 fps will pass through anything walking in North America, assuming you use the right bullet. If I plug a 150 pound hog with a nice quarter shot, I'm led to believe - accurately it seems - that a 45LC hard cast will leave a substantial wound channel. Am I incorrect?

brianr23
November 15, 2012, 06:36 PM
I shot a 160lb hog with a .45 colt Blackhawk. 225 grain JSP at 1100 fps. He was DRT but I hit him just over the right eye when he was facing me at 20 yds.

StrawHat
November 15, 2012, 07:04 PM
I have to disagree with adelbridge. My experience is with smaller, faster rounds (30-06 and such) and I have no experience with a big bore rifle. But everything I'm reading leads to me believe that a 45LC moving at 1,000-1,100 fps will pass through anything walking in North America, assuming you use the right bullet. If I plug a 150 pound hog with a nice quarter shot, I'm led to believe - accurately it seems - that a 45LC hard cast will leave a substantial wound channel. Am I incorrect?
The 45 long Colt was designed to pass through a horse at 100 yards. I know the black powder loading and a 260 grain bullet will pass through a whitetailed deer, sternum to ham. Never shot a hod but I would not hesitate to use the 45 LC. Loaded the same, the 44 Special should perform the same. I avoidhollow points and light for caliber bullets for handgun hunting, preferring standard or a bit heavier, cast bullets.

StrawHat
November 15, 2012, 07:06 PM
Let me back up a second and ask the OP, are you using a rifle or handgun? It doesn't make a lot of difference but 800 fps from a rifle load is fairly slow.

allaroundhunter
November 16, 2012, 12:01 AM
So you are saying that 180 gr. HP .44 Spl. load flying at a hog doing roughly 900 fps and at around 400+ ft.lbs. is going to do absolutely nothing?

Hollow points are not ideal hunting rounds out of pistols. They typically expand far too fast, and fragment rather quickly. Against a slightly more "armored" target like a pig, they are a poor choice, regardless of their velocity or energy numbers which are what you seem to be basing your recommendation on. What is needed is a good hard cast bullet.

And rifle rounds do not behave nor wound in the exact same manner as handgun rounds. To be honest though, that Razorback XT round is an overhyped marketing round. I would not recommend it, and I don't. The Nosler Partition is a great round, for any type of game, and will hold together much better than the pistol rounds that you are recommending.

CraigC
November 16, 2012, 12:24 AM
So you are saying that 180 gr. HP .44 Spl. load flying at a hog doing roughly 900 fps and at around 400+ ft.lbs. is going to do absolutely nothing?
No but it ain't gonna get the job done. Velocity and energy mean nothing if you don't use the right bullet and a 180gr JHP is absolutely NOT the right bullet.


.44 Special Ammo - 180 gr. J.H.P. (1,150 fps/ 543 ft.lbs.)
Wrong bullet. Too light, too lightly constructed. A 240-250gr Keith bullet would be a vastly superior choice, regardless of velocity.


.357 Magnum Ammo - 158 gr. J.H.C. (1,475fps/ 763 ft. lbs.)
Wrong bullet. Weight is adequate, construction is not. A 173gr Keith bullet or 180gr LBT would be a vastly superior choice. The 180gr Gold Dot would work fine as well.


10mm Ammo - 220 gr. Hard Cast - FN (1,200 fps/ 703 ft. lbs.)
Right bullet. Proper weight and construction. You can do no better in this caliber. The 200gr XTP is not bad but all the rest tend to open too quickly.

mavracer
November 16, 2012, 11:12 AM
Right There!
(Life is a live and learn and if at first you don't succeed try again.)
Some people can learn from other's mistakes. Others seem to want to make all the mistakes on their own.
There's some sage advise around, maybe you could study up on sectional density and how it relares to terminal ballistics, pay particular attention to what effect it has on penatration.
For the record if I was faced with a 300# guy with a heavy coat your dang skippy I'd prefer something other than that 180gr 44 special load. I want better penatration.

CraigC
November 16, 2012, 11:41 AM
Read my signature line. I like to learn from others as much as possible. Which is probably why I spend as much on books a year as I do guns. IMHO, anybody who thinks a 180gr .44Spl load is good wild hog medicine has A LOT of reading to do. Elmer Keith had much of this figured out in the 1930's so you have a lot of catching up to do. His book, Sixguns is back in print and cheap, start there. Then John Taffin's books, of which there are several but his first, Big Bore Sixguns, is my favorite. Get yourself a subscription to Handloader magazine and pay close attention to Brian Pearce.

DM~
November 16, 2012, 12:27 PM
Elmer Keith said a LOT of things, much of it BS. I guess we all can pick through the piles to make "something" he said, fit our argument!!

Dang, he once said a 30-06 was marginal for whitetails!

He said the 7mm Mag loaded with 175NP's was "mininum" for antelope! DOH!!

If you wanted to hear some first hand "Elmer" stories, you should have sit down for an afternoon with Parker Ackley (P.O.Ackley) and listen to what he said about his time with Elmer working for him! lol

I did on more than one occasion and found it pretty amusing!

Anyway, i stand by my choise of the 357 over the lightly loaded 44spl.!! I got "that" all figured out durning the time i was hired to clean out some packs of dogs...

DM

USSR
November 16, 2012, 12:59 PM
When is a forum question not really a question? When the poster believes he already knows the answer and is simply shopping for validation of his opinion. First, DRT involves the shutdown of the CNS. This implies a head, neck or spine shot. Chest shots, while good and ultimately fatal, are rarely DRT shots. Before we were allowed to hunt deer with rifles, we used 12 gauge shotguns here. One large buck I shot went 60 yards before succumbing to a shot that removed the top of his heart. And this is from a .70 caliber hunk of lead weighing 437 grains going at 1600fps. Regarding the talk about the .357 Magnum for hunting. Having used it to hunt deer for many years, it is in MHO a marginal deer cartridge in a handgun. A heavy bulleted .45 Colt, despite going much slower, kills so much better, and I would never go back willingly to the .357 Magnum. Lastly, you simply cannot compare the effect of increased velocity on game animals between high power rifle loads and handgun loads. While increased velocity in rifles adds to the effect on game (assuming a well constructed bullet), with handguns there is nowhere's near the same effect, and you are simply improving the external ballistics and possibly allowing for longer range shots. Just MHO.

Don

CraigC
November 16, 2012, 01:14 PM
Elmer Keith said a LOT of things, much of it BS. I guess we all can pick through the piles to make "something" he said, fit our argument!!
Luckily we have anonymous internet folks like yourself to set us all straight. How many books have you written? How many cartridges are you credited with helping create? How many people will remember your name when you're gone? How much of your life have you dedicated to promoting this sport? How many new trails have you blazed? How many people are quoting you and revering your work now? 30yrs after you're gone??? It's real easy to sit on the sidelines and take potshots at folks who dedicated their lives to the sport and are no longer around to defend themselves. :rolleyes:

This ain't a discussion about the .30-06 or the 7mmMag. This is a discussion on the .44Spl and last I checked, there is no better source on the subject than the men I mentioned. Unless you have a better source for information on the subject???

Archangel14
November 16, 2012, 10:21 PM
I'm going to take a shot and make and assertion: based upon what I have learned, I think a .44 special hard cast traveling 850 fps is a killer within 50 yards with medium size game. Correct?

allaroundhunter
November 16, 2012, 11:08 PM
I'm going to take a shot and make and assertion: based upon what I have learned, I think a .44 special hard cast traveling 850 fps is a killer within 50 yards with medium size game. Correct?

Killer? Probably. DRT? Doubtful.

And by medium game I am saying hogs weighing less than 100 lbs (live weight)

Sent from my HTC One X

DM~
November 17, 2012, 10:38 AM
Luckily we have anonymous internet folks like yourself to set us all straight. How many books have you written? How many cartridges are you credited with helping create? How many people will remember your name when you're gone? How much of your life have you dedicated to promoting this sport? How many new trails have you blazed? How many people are quoting you and revering your work now? 30yrs after you're gone??? It's real easy to sit on the sidelines and take potshots at folks who dedicated their lives to the sport and are no longer around to defend themselves. :rolleyes:

This ain't a discussion about the .30-06 or the 7mmMag. This is a discussion on the .44Spl and last I checked, there is no better source on the subject than the men I mentioned. Unless you have a better source for information on the subject???

I've done more of those than you realize, but that ain't the discussion here either... lol

Then again, perhaps you don't have enough hunting experience to see for yourself what is BS and what isn't?? You have top have "Elmer" tell you????

DM

CraigC
November 17, 2012, 10:47 AM
Yep, that's it. :rolleyes:

Certaindeaf
November 17, 2012, 11:15 AM
Well, i had paper targets stapled on an old dry pallet, probably an oak pallet. I shot the target with my 4" 44spl. using factory loads at 55 yards and guess what? Those bullets bounced off the oak boards. lol

I pulled out my 4" 357 and it didn't matter what board you shot, those mid range 357's zipped right on through!

I then shot that pallet with 1200 fps loads out of my 44 mag., and all of those bullets zipped right on through too...

SO, take that info any way you want, but i'd choose my 357 loaded with mid range loads or higher EVERY time to any of my 44 spl.'s loaded to 900 and under!!

DM
Those soft .44's were likely going around 600-650fps. You'll never recover a hardcast 250 grain Keith SWC going 1000+ fps from a moose let alone a 150 pound pig.

AABEN
November 17, 2012, 11:47 AM
When I was a kid at home we killed all of are live stock to eat. This was done with a 22 rifle with a 22 long hogs and beef cows it jest took one shot in the head. So any well placed shot with a 357 41 44 will kill any hog if the shot is well placed hart or head shot!!

DM~
November 17, 2012, 12:31 PM
You'll never recover a hardcast 250 grain Keith SWC going 1000+ fps from a moose let alone a 150 pound pig.

Have you ever shot a moose with a 44?? I have, using 23.0 of H110 with a fairly hard cast 250KT over it. That load clocks about 1250 to 1300 out of my revolvers and i shot a fair sized bull with it.

Two shots and neither bullet exited the moose, didn't make it to the hide either. The bull was very close to 55 yards away, standing for the first shot, running for the second. The bullets hit within 3" of each other.

Not saying it won't work for a hog, but i AM saying they did NOT pass through a moose.

DM

CraigC
November 17, 2012, 12:49 PM
I've done more of those than you realize, but that ain't the discussion here either... lol

Then again, perhaps you don't have enough hunting experience to see for yourself what is BS and what isn't?? You have top have "Elmer" tell you????
I could say the same about you and Ackley. :rolleyes:

Are we not to learn from the works of others? Should we just start closing down our schools because anonymous internet legend "DM~" says that books are for sissies??? No difference.

I'm sorry but your credibility became part of the discussion when you decried "BS" on Keith's work. You have asserted yourself above Elmer Keith. It is up to you to prove your credibility, not me to prove mine. All I suggested was that he read Keith's work, as well as Taffin's and Pearce's. If you care to take issue with anything specific those men have said, I'm all ears. It's rather obvious to me that you subscribe to some of the same wisdom that I prescribed for "brnmw", or you wouldn't have been shooting game with the Keith bullet. So if "much of what Elmer Keith said was BS", I'd love to hear which parts. Especially if they are relevant to this discussion. If you are here to simply denigrate a legend to make yourself look better, good luck.

I'd also love to see links to the books you've written. :)

ATCDoktor
November 17, 2012, 01:05 PM
Although anecdotal in value with respect to this discussion, I will relate a single experience (one of many hog hunts I've been on) that I hope will help the OP come to terms with what feral hogs are capable of with respect to absorbing bullets placed in the chest area.

About 3 years ago my neighbor and I were hog hunting in south Texas.

He was using a Savage in 243 using Barnes 85 grain TSX bullets @ near 3200 FPS and I was using my Marling Guide Gun in 45/70 using 300 grain hollow points @ 1900 FPS.

He and I were in the process of dragging my second hog out of the brush (he had yet to drop the hammer on this hunt) when I saw a medium sized pig (150 -190 pounds) coming directly towards us at about 75 yards.

The pig was on what I refer to as the "fast walk" and when I saw him I told my neighbor to shoot him. My neighbor got nervous/wound up and was fumbling with his rifle and I told him to shoot or else I was and when he finally got sorted out the pig winded us turned and was now at a dead run from our left to right dead in front of us at about 25 yards.

When the pig was directly in front of us my neighbor shot and the pig never flinched and assuming he missed I blasted him with my guide gun.

When I dropped the hammer on the Marlin there was still no reaction at the shot and he kept on running out of sight.

Time between shots was about a second or two.

Standing there with my neighbor I was adamant that I had not missed, no way at 25 yards regardless of how fast he was running did i miss that pig, he was not so certain as he was a novice hunter/shooter.

We walked forward to the point where the hog was when we fired and found no blood.

We followed his trail/general direction of travel as best we could through the tight south Texas brush for about 300 yards, at times on our hands and knees and still no blood.

We were getting ready to come to terms with our shameful display of marksmanhip when the landowner came by in his truck to pick us up.

We went back and picked up the hog we were dragging out when this shooting went down and retold the story to the landowner.

He was convinced we had missed and dismissed it as poor shooting and said there were plenty of hogs out there and not to worry about it.

Well, while driving back to the ranch house, at a point about 3/4 of a mile from where we had shot and supposedly missed, we found him lying in the road.

Upon inspection we found that we both had hit him, bullet impacts were about 2 inches apart.

GRAPHIC PHOTOS TO FOLOW

The "Double Tap" hog is the one in the center:

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c307/ATCDoctor/2010-01-15/DSC_0017_929.jpg

Entrance wounds approximately 2 inches apart:

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c307/ATCDoctor/2010-01-15/DSC_0022_934.jpg

Entrance wounds with the hide off, note the heart and lungs show significant damage:

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c307/ATCDoctor/2010-01-15/DSC_0051_963.jpg

Entrance wounds from inside the rib cage (we believe that the forward entrance wound is the 45/70):

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c307/ATCDoctor/2010-01-15/100_1381.jpg

Exit wounds from inside the ribcage (Again we believe thatt he forward exit wound is the 45/70):

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c307/ATCDoctor/2010-01-15/100_1382.jpg

Heart lungs et al destroyed:

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c307/ATCDoctor/2010-01-15/100_1379.jpg

I didn't take pics of the exit wounds with the hide on as they were unremarkable. There was no blood loss out of the off side and the exit holes appeared to have "closed up".

Now, I do not subscribe to the point of view that wild/feral hogs are the "Terminators" they are made out to be, In my mind, bust an animals lungs and he will go down (sooner or later).

That said, this animal was able to travel nearly 3/4 of a mile with his heart and lungs deatroyed and never leaked a drop of blood (that we could find).

With that in mind, and with respect to the Op's question about the mid range 44 special loading and chest shot hogs at 100 yards, if it were me, and I was gonna shoot them with a 44 special/magnum with a cast lead 240 grain swc at 1000 fps, I would tighten the distance (considerably) and aim a little closer to the earhole vice the chest.

d2wing
November 17, 2012, 01:05 PM
there is a reason Elmer developed the 44 mag. Too slow is too slow. The slow guys are slow. Dreams and bs don't make a clean kill.

Hobie
November 17, 2012, 02:35 PM
So you are saying that 180 gr. HP .44 Spl. load flying at a hog doing roughly 900 fps and at around 400+ ft.lbs. is going to do absolutely nothing?

***I have pulled up some numbers right quick just for a quick comparison (Not to mention some experience which is what I am sure you seem to be hinting at ;) )

As we all know not every bullet and ballistic will be identical, but...: (#'s pulled off an ammo mftr. website)

.44 Special Ammo - 180 gr. J.H.P. (1,150 fps/ 543 ft.lbs.)

.357 Magnum Ammo - 158 gr. J.H.C. (1,475fps/ 763 ft. lbs.)

10mm Ammo - 220 gr. Hard Cast - FN (1,200 fps/ 703 ft. lbs.)

Given the variables here and there they all no matter what weight or type of bullet construction all seems to be flying in and around 1,000 fps. And muster between 500-700 ft. lbs. of energy. (In my experience all of these mentioned would do serious damage to whatever the bullet hits.)> you can criticize or speculate my experience all you want... I don't care. So I guess if we really want to be absolutely scientifically accurate for the sake of further argument just take a 40mm Grenade M203 launcher attached to your AR-15
Because that .223 Rem. "64 gr." Lightweight Winchester Razorback XT/ “Hollow Point”: Velocity @ 3020fps. (okay that’s fast) 1,296 ft.lbs. @ the muzzle (which also means it's not doing that once it gets to its target mind you) is also going to fail. So you touched on "Light weight" (64 gr.) and "Self-Defense"(HP) construction. I just wanted to make sure I understood correctly. Okay, I guess I will just go back to my saved Cabela's XBOX game then.... "Oh, look I just shot a Grizzly bear in the head @ 100 yds. with a .308 Winchester and he just mauled me... I guess next time I should try the .30-'06 "That will teach him!" Its Good thing I saved my game! :rolleyes:

(Just for the record I am not criticizing anyone that plays those games, they do kind of pass the time when hunting season is over.) :)
Placement is everything. Discussions such as the one begun here must begin by accepting the premise that the bullet will be placed correctly. If one does the HP certainly isn't required which was the original question. All the ballistic tables aside, what CraigC is saying is that one doesn't need an HP, one doesn't need the maximum velocity and when one thinks one does need the HP one doesn't quite understand what's happening.

Hobie
November 17, 2012, 02:37 PM
Luckily we have anonymous internet folks like yourself to set us all straight. How many books have you written? How many cartridges are you credited with helping create? How many people will remember your name when you're gone? How much of your life have you dedicated to promoting this sport? How many new trails have you blazed? How many people are quoting you and revering your work now? 30yrs after you're gone??? It's real easy to sit on the sidelines and take potshots at folks who dedicated their lives to the sport and are no longer around to defend themselves. :rolleyes:

This ain't a discussion about the .30-06 or the 7mmMag. This is a discussion on the .44Spl and last I checked, there is no better source on the subject than the men I mentioned. Unless you have a better source for information on the subject???
Good to see you posted...

velvethunter
November 17, 2012, 11:51 PM
Originally Posted by CraigC
Luckily we have anonymous internet folks like yourself to set us all straight. How many books have you written? How many cartridges are you credited with helping create? How many people will remember your name when you're gone? How much of your life have you dedicated to promoting this sport? How many new trails have you blazed? How many people are quoting you and revering your work now? 30yrs after you're gone??? It's real easy to sit on the sidelines and take potshots at folks who dedicated their lives to the sport and are no longer around to defend themselves.

This ain't a discussion about the .30-06 or the 7mmMag. This is a discussion on the .44Spl and last I checked, there is no better source on the subject than the men I mentioned. Unless you have a better source for information on the subject???

Keith has done some great things for sure, but has also said some things that were flat out wrong, like "the .270 is a marginally effective coyote round". And the aforementioned comments about 7mags and antelope and 30-06 and deer. I don't have to have written 10 books to know that is malarkey. A 44 spl will likely kill a hog with a good shot, but why not just use something with a bit more umph to be sure.

rcmodel
November 18, 2012, 12:06 AM
So you are saying that 180 gr. HP .44 Spl. load flying at a hog doing roughly 900 fps and at around 400+ ft.lbs. is going to do absolutely nothing?I would go so far as to say, it might not do anything much.

Have you ever seen a big oldd hog that has wallowed in a mud hole all day and then sun-baked his-self, until his shoulders are covered in what is basically adobe brick tile?

A 180 JHP is as likely as not to shatter & splatter on the hard mud packed hair, as penetrate deeply enough to kill.

A 240 grain or heavier hard-cast SWC will drive right on through it, and the hog.

rc

Certaindeaf
November 18, 2012, 09:37 AM
Have you ever shot a moose with a 44?.
I've shot elk with a 4" .44 revolver. Seen moose popped with .44's.

USSR
November 18, 2012, 10:26 AM
Since this thread has deviated from the OP of the capability of a .44 Special .vs a 150 pound hog and gone off into criticism of Saint Elmer:D, you really need to put things into the context of the 1920's and 1930's when most of his experimentation and evaluation was being done. Regarding the .270 comment, aside from EK's disdain for small caliber high velocity cartridges, what was the quality of the bullets of that era? They certainly did not have the multitude of high performance, controlled expansion bullets that we have now. Elmer simply watched game animals being shot with various cartridges and came to the conclusion that a heavy, large caliber bullet is a more efficient killer than a high velocity bullet that is totally dependent upon favorable expansion and penetration characteristics which may or may not happen. Now, I don't pretend to know the answer to the OP's question, since I hunt deer with a .45 Colt and launch the bullets about 200fps faster than 850fps, but I do know that a heavy, large caliber bullet penetrates deeply and kills all out of proportion to the energy it generates. Just MHO.

Don

DM~
November 18, 2012, 10:34 PM
Are we not to learn from the works of others? Should we just start closing down our schools because anonymous internet legend "DM~" says that books are for sissies??? No difference.

I'm sorry but your credibility became part of the discussion when you decried "BS" on Keith's work. You have asserted yourself above Elmer Keith. It is up to you to prove your credibility, not me to prove mine. All I suggested was that he read Keith's work, as well as Taffin's and Pearce's. If you care to take issue with anything specific those men have said, I'm all ears. It's rather obvious to me that you subscribe to some of the same wisdom that I prescribed for "brnmw", or you wouldn't have been shooting game with the Keith bullet. So if "much of what Elmer Keith said was BS", I'd love to hear which parts. Especially if they are relevant to this discussion. If you are here to simply denigrate a legend to make yourself look better, good luck.

I'd also love to see links to the books you've written.


It you have to resort to twisting peoples words and then put words in their mouth to create some BS to spread, you've already lost your argument...

Nice try though! lol

DM

CraigC
November 19, 2012, 12:47 AM
It you have to resort to twisting peoples words and then put words in their mouth to create some BS to spread, you've already lost your argument...
How convenient for you. I'm only responding to the words on the screen. If you don't have anything better than that, I reckon it speaks for itself.

I'm still waiting for you to provide a better source of information than those I provided. Since I'm just a wannabe that needs others to tell me what to think, surely you can better help our friends here to enlightenment.

brnmw
November 20, 2012, 11:26 AM
Placement is everything. Discussions such as the one begun here must begin by accepting the premise that the bullet will be placed correctly. If one does the HP certainly isn't required which was the original question. All the ballistic tables aside, what CraigC is saying is that one doesn't need an HP, one doesn't need the maximum velocity and when one thinks one does need the HP one doesn't quite understand what's happening.
:banghead:

As for my origional posting: (If I am understanding you correctly)

As for the .44 Spl. just get some Buffalo Bore 180 gr. JHP's and practice for a good clean accurate as possible shot and you will be okay.

"PRACTICE for a good clean shot" was my main point a .44 Spl. and .357 Mag. out of a rifle barrel will do damage. Not everyones experiences around on this forum will be the same. I have taken a 180 Lb. hog with a .357 Mag. HP out of a Colt "Python" he took about 10-15 stepps then dropped DEAD! SHOT PLACEMENT, SHOT PLACEMENT, SHOT PLACEMENT! And with that I end my argument.) :)

CraigC
November 20, 2012, 11:41 AM
You still riding that goat? Shot placement is always a given. :rolleyes:

Of course it will "do damage" but the question is how much and how deep? A "good clean shot" won't do much good if your bullet choice is terrible. Leave the self defense loads at home, there are far better choices available.

Archangel14
November 20, 2012, 12:29 PM
You know, I think I opened up a can of worms with the whole "chest" shot thing. Let's me go another direction: will a .44 special at 850 fps hitting a 150-200 hog behind the ear at at 50-100 yards make it DRT? Assuming a hard cast bullet. I'm with CraigC....why would anyone use a "self defense" bullet on a tough animal. It seems to me that you'd have more of a chance in making the poor creature suffer. If you're going to shoot something, make it clean and hard!

mavracer
November 20, 2012, 01:35 PM
Let's me go another direction: will a .44 special at 850 fps hitting a 150-200 hog behind the ear at at 50-100 yards make it DRT? Assuming a hard cast bullet.
not that i'd make too much difference behind the ear. But if it actually has to penatrate the skull it makes quite a bit of difference if that's a 160gr RNFP at 850fps or a 250gr SWC at 850 fps.

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