Beginers deer rifle


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fpjeepy05
November 14, 2012, 10:52 PM
I know I'm going to get .243 and 30-30. But I was hoping for something different

My nephew is just getting into deer hunting, and his dad wants to get him a .243 ect. and I'm just not all for it. For a few reasons. , 1) I don't think that the .243 is a great round for New England where most shots are under 45 yards. 2) I had one as a kid and felt terribly under confident. 3) When it comes time to grow out it requires another purchase.

Some possible Calibers I'm proposing.
.460 S&W (Start with 45LC and work up to 454 and then 460 as time progresses)
.445 Super Mag (Same thing, but seems much more rare.)
.357 Max (Same as above)

Or Any of these with the reduced recoil ammunition
270
30-06
308

Or Minimum Larger calibers
7mm-08 or 7x57
300 savage
35 Remington

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Mat, not doormat
November 14, 2012, 11:04 PM
One that shoots when the trigger is pulled, and hits where the sights are pointed. Deer get killed every year with bows and arrows, any reasonable centerfire rifle is so much more than adequate that it's almost silly.

Sent from my C771 using Tapatalk 2

mshootnit
November 14, 2012, 11:05 PM
Probly a bolt 260 would work well. You could do a ruger Hawkeye with a weaver 3X9.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=316930079

Archangel14
November 14, 2012, 11:09 PM
Under 45 yards!? Why on earth would you need any round moving the speed of a .243 for shots under 45 yards? You can throw a spear at the prey from that distance!

Get a nice lever action in .357 or .44 mag. Maybe an older Marlin. I think they make a youth model with a shorter stock.

mshootnit
November 14, 2012, 11:13 PM
This one looks sweet for a beginner
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=316962490

snakeman
November 14, 2012, 11:14 PM
under 45 yards...hmm i guess i would have to say marlin 35 rem! Or maybe an ar in 6.8, 6.5 grendel, 300 blk, 7.62x39 oh wait any centerfire round should work for under 45 yards. Heck even a 9mm would probably do the trick even though its not really ethical! I would go with a marlin 35 rem or mossberg 30-30. Maybe a handi rifle in 25-06 or 45/70 for the fun of it. Ever consider a good hawken?

CaliCoastie
November 14, 2012, 11:16 PM
Old Marlin in 30-30 our 35rem. Not the most tactical but they sure handle business. I like Marlin (older ones)

Mat, not doormat
November 14, 2012, 11:16 PM
All the calibers you list are fine, for later, but a beginner probably ought to keep it simple.

Sent from my C771 using Tapatalk 2

ScrapMetalSlug
November 14, 2012, 11:22 PM
why not a marlin 30-30

utbrowningman
November 14, 2012, 11:31 PM
At that distance? Open sight Marlin .30-30 is all you need. Ammo is relatively cheap and there are plenty of Marlins to choose from. Just get one made prior to the Remington takeover.

nathan
November 14, 2012, 11:32 PM
.30 30 or the 7.62 x 39. Lot s of commercial loading s nowadays to choose from.

Texan Scott
November 14, 2012, 11:33 PM
30-30 is an AWESOME caliber for 45 yds.... or 100. Great deer gun.

wyohome
November 14, 2012, 11:35 PM
I would recommend a rifle that shoots better than he can...it is easy to get bored with a 30-30.

R.W.Dale
November 14, 2012, 11:40 PM
For a beginner shop the gun more than the caliber. All the calibers you mention are supremely capable at 50yds even the 243.

I am not a fan of lever actions for beginners. I was started on one and in retrospective they're not a heat beginning gun for several reasons.

IMO the absolute best beginner deer rifle is the break action single shot. They're light, short, simple to load, simple to make safe and have a passive safety system that only requires the discipline to not cock the hammer till they're about to shoot.

The problem with having just a 30-30 is what happens when the kid gets more proficient and gets to go hunting somewhere where he may shoot 200yds+ ? I'm a fan of getting someone to get a gun that can hunt many types of terrain because as the old saying goes a 400 yd rifle works a lot better at 50 yards than a 150 yard gun does at 300




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Steel Talon
November 14, 2012, 11:49 PM
25-06 or 7mm-08 are my recogmendations

primalmu
November 14, 2012, 11:51 PM
I'd recommend an SKS. It is more than capable for hunting, especially at those ranges. And if you want to get fancy get a Yugo with the grenade launcher, turn the gas valve off, and you've got a bolt action SKS. ;)

wyohome
November 14, 2012, 11:51 PM
^Of those 2, I would take the 7mm-08, due to the shorter action.

1911 guy
November 15, 2012, 12:00 AM
Of the ones on your list, I'd opt for the 7mm-08 or the parent, .308. They won't beat a new shooter too badly, especially the 7mm-08 and they can be had relativiely inexpensively in short action rifles. My favorite chambering in .30 caliber bolt rifles is the .308. Nothing east of the Mississippi you can't hunt with it. When he gets more competent, he can move up to heavier loads or you can introduce him to handloading. If he's young or of smaller stature, there are youth models available from several manufacturers.

For the ranges you state, the .30-30 is entirely adequate, but i kinda understand your desire to get him something with a bit more flair. I understand the attraction of handgun caliber lever guns and carbines, but the practicality prevents me from owning one. Why carry a rifle with only handgun balistics? The aforementioned .30-30 packs far more "whallop" than even a .44 Magnum.

mickeydim468
November 15, 2012, 12:14 AM
What about the .243 makes one feel like they do not have enough gun for deer at 45 yards? 100 Gr well constructed bullet at 3000fps packs quite a wallop! No kick for beginner and great ballistics out to 200 yards. Should he travel to an area where a 150 yard shot may be the norm, I would feel confident that the .243 could do the job nicely.

Mike!

Andrew Leigh
November 15, 2012, 03:26 AM
What about a nice 6.5X55mm Swede. Classic calibre, moderate recoil, can shoot far if required, can be loaded with a good variety of bullets but at 50m would take a 140 or 160 gr.

With the heavier bullet you will greatly limit meat damage, will have less issues with bullet deflection in brush and the 6.5mm punches well above its weight so you can take moderate sized game.

The .243 is great and popular calibre and there is nothing wrong with it, I looked at one but when the 6.5mm was suggested and I did my research it was a no brainer for me, especially since I reload. Factory ammo is fine though.

Not a believer in reducing loads in powerful rifles, but a rifle that will shoot the load for the job at hand. Obviously this excludes downloading for a youngster or a lady who will grow into the calibre.

Good luck

jmr40
November 15, 2012, 05:29 AM
Get the 243 and don't look back. This should remove any doubt about a 243's abilities

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hY0w1c-gf18

mnrivrat
November 15, 2012, 06:40 AM
Absolutely nothing wrong with the 243 or the 30-30.

Some possible Calibers I'm proposing.
.460 S&W (Start with 45LC and work up to 454 and then 460 as time progresses)
.445 Super Mag (Same thing, but seems much more rare.)
.357 Max (Same as above)

Why would you recommend handgun cartridges for a deer rifle ? Not to mention that you won't find 445 Super Mag or 357 Max as normal Gun store stockage. Or rifles in those calibers other than the single shot break open guns.

bob4
November 15, 2012, 06:48 AM
I vote .270 Good all around rifle he can grow into. As you said low recoil rounds to start. You can get larger bullets if your gonna hunt a bit bigger game.You can pick one up without breaking the bank. And when the trees part way and he has to shoot 200+ it's more than adequate.

Sav .250
November 15, 2012, 07:44 AM
You might consider a Marlin 336 in 35 cal. From what you said it would fit .

Zeke/PA
November 15, 2012, 07:59 AM
I started my Grandson a few years back with an older Marlin .30-30 topped with a 4X glass and he did quite well with it.
He later graduated to a Model 70 in .30-'06.
This year he will carry a Savage Edge '06.

Kachok
November 15, 2012, 08:08 AM
I know I'm going to get .243 and 30-30. But I was hoping for something different

257 Roberts, 25WSSM, 6.5x55, 7x57, 6.5 Creedmore, 250 Savage. None of which you can get at you local wal-mart or even Academy, is that rare enough for ya? Not only are they less then common but they are also all fantastic low recoil deer thumpers.

Fremmer
November 15, 2012, 08:37 AM
And none of them are low recoil for a beginner like a .243. All will work at less than 50 yards, so why punish a beginner with more unnecessary recoil?

BoilerUP
November 15, 2012, 08:46 AM
Do you reload?

If so, 308 Win using reduced H4895 loads. Cheap components, full house loads available everywhere, and very low recoil/report with 4895 yet plenty of power for deer.

snakeman
November 15, 2012, 09:07 AM
Another thing to consider would be a weatherby vanguard or howa in 243 or 7mm-08. Howa does make a 6.5x55 which is probably a great a gun. Just find a gun that fits him well and don't worry so much about the caliber. All of the cartridges that have been listed are more than suitable. I've taken a slew of deer with the 22-250 and never had a problem. Just be sure that he has a gun that shoots well and that he shoots it well and can make a shot to the vitals with ease. These things are much more important than what caliber he uses.

jrdolall
November 15, 2012, 09:25 AM
Get the kid on a gun that he will enjoy shooting. Light recoil, light guns are easy to find without breaking the bank. Also consider the ammo. I was in Academy last week and they did not have any light recoil 30-06 ammo on the shelf. You can always find 30-30 or .243 ammo at Walmart or any store that carries ammo. I have killed umpteen deer with a single shot .243 over the years and I am far from a "kid". Same deal with a Marlin 30-30. Our season opens this Saturday and I will have a Savage 110 30-06 with me.
For beginners I like the 30-30 because of the light recoil and it will easily handle most whitetail deer shots out to 150 yards without any compensating for bullet drop. A bolt action .243 is also a light recoil gun(my ss is not really that light recoiling) and is great for just about any distance. If you can find a good 6.5 Swede then that is also a great gun for any deer applications though the ammo is not as readily available.

I have a lot of hunting rifles accumulated over years of hunting so I have multiple calibers. I am letting a friend borrow a Marlin 30-30 this weekend for his grandsons first hunt. He lost all his guns in a burglary earlier this month and insurance has not paid up yet so I gave him a 30-06 for him to use as well. My 12 year old daughter will have the Swede with her. My 14 year old son will have a Remington 30-06 and my 22 year old will probably sleep and skip the morning hunt. If the kid really gets in to hunting then he will certainly want a different rifle as he matures and finds new toys. I sure did/do.

beatledog7
November 15, 2012, 09:42 AM
Lever action rifle chambered in a handgun magnum for that range. Anything closer, use a bow. Or a club.

RPRNY
November 15, 2012, 09:46 AM
Howa 1500 7mm-08 youth package.

Comes with a Stirling Scope which is not great but certainly fine for New England distances. But also comes with two Hogue stocks. A Youth stock which is 12.5" LOP I believe and a full size 14.5" that he can keep using later. 7mm-08 is very versatile and soft shooting, allowing 115 gr bullets out at 3000 fps all the way up to 175 grs at 2400 fps. For NE deer, 150 grs at 2600 fps is plenty.

I am another 30-30 fan, and for putting down deer and bear in New England, it is ideal. But, if you want a very versatile, low recoil cartridge in a great bolt gun, the Howa Youth Package is the way to go.

RedBowTies88
November 15, 2012, 09:49 AM
SKS or an AK would be great for that range. And the short LOP makes it easy for smaller framed people to fire. Also those guns are just plain cool and enjoyable to shoot so he will most likely have more fun using them both at the range and hunting

sansone
November 15, 2012, 09:51 AM
oh come on now, just let his dad get him that .243 and be happy

Salmoneye
November 15, 2012, 10:18 AM
45 yards?

Shotgun with 00-Buck...

Or any of the previously mentioned guns...

Heck...Add in a .357 Mag lever action for grins...

:D

fpjeepy05
November 15, 2012, 10:51 AM
For a beginner shop the gun more than the caliber. All the calibers you mention are supremely capable at 50yds even the 243.

I am not a fan of lever actions for beginners. I was started on one and in retrospective they're not a heat beginning gun for several reasons.

IMO the absolute best beginner deer rifle is the break action single shot. They're light, short, simple to load, simple to make safe and have a passive safety system that only requires the discipline to not cock the hammer till they're about to shoot.

The problem with having just a 30-30 is what happens when the kid gets more proficient and gets to go hunting somewhere where he may shoot 200yds+ ? I'm a fan of getting someone to get a gun that can hunt many types of terrain because as the old saying goes a 400 yd rifle works a lot better at 50 yards than a 150 yard gun does at 300

I agree I think a single shot it best. Also makes for a shorter gun which I think is nice for the young guys.

What is wrong with the TC Katadin 460. Just shoot 45LC'c out of it and recoil is not a problem. I saw 45LC ammo at Walmart yesterday.

Also I have nothing against the .243. I think it is a great caliber. Lots of deer have been taken with it I know. Around he the pouchers all use .223 head/neck shots. I think it was the image of the 243, when I was younger, that I didn't feel confident. "Light bullets deflect" "Smallest caliber legal for deer" and the idea that it was a youth rifle. Bullet placement is all that really matters but confidence matters too. I had a nice buck get by me when I was 16, because I never took a shot because I was trying for a head shot and there was some branches in the way. If I'd had a brush wacker like a 35 rem, 44 mag, or 454 casull I think I would have shot.

I know life is a series of compromises I'm just trying to weigh out the options.

Pete D.
November 15, 2012, 10:59 AM
I am not sure that there is such a thing as a "beginner's" deer rifle? Does it have training wheels?
What makes a rifle a beginner's gun?
The hunter in question is going to have training before the field, yes? So....what is the issue? If he or she cannot handle whatever gun well before hunting, they shouldn't be in the woods.
There is nothing wrong with the .243 or the .30-30.
Personally, the .308Win is the choice that I would make, followed by the 7mm-08. A bolt gun in either.

yuppiejr
November 15, 2012, 12:04 PM
Used Ruger 44 magnum carbine (tube fed preferably) with tech sights and a weekend at Appleseed with a 10/22 equipped with the same sights.

Jake L
November 15, 2012, 12:25 PM
I also have a quirky desire to own guns chambered for slightly less common rounds. My 870 is a 20 gauge (not uncommon, but LESS common). My first rifle was a 17 HMR instead of a 22. But I'd have to say that it would be very difficult to find a better rifle for a beginning hunter than a 243. It is a perfectly adequate deer cartridge in every way. It carries more energy than needed for any deer out to 300 yards, and nowadays its easy to choose a bullet that will hold solid and penetrate even on shoulder hits at the high velocities of close range. The great thing about getting a 243 for this hunter would be that they could also use the gun for things like coyotes, woodchucks, ground squirrels, etc. They wouldn't need a new rifle just to hunt a new location where long shots could be encountered.

But, with all that said, 243 isn't the only good option. 260 rem, 6.5x55, 6.5 grendel in an AR, 6mm, or the lovable 257 Roberts would all be more unique and interesting cartridges without being rare or obscure. All of them have good factory loadings available and likely will for the foreseeable future. All have very low recoil and shoot flat and accurate. I'm out west, and so perhaps thats why I would choose cartridges like these.

Bottom line, get something that tickles your fancy now, and won't hinder this person from pursuing a variety of hunting opportunities down the road. Thats why I'd choose 243, because of its greater versatility for varmints as well as deer. Generally most new hunters wont be pursuing moose in saskatchewan within the next few seasons, however varmints are always on the menu and a great way to hunt year round.

Fishbed77
November 15, 2012, 03:04 PM
My nephew is just getting into deer hunting, and his dad wants to get him a .243 ect. and I'm just not all for it. For a few reasons. , 1) I don't think that the .243 is a great round for New England where most shots are under 45 yards. 2) I had one as a kid and felt terribly under confident. 3) When it comes time to grow out it requires another purchase.

OK - gonna play devils advocate here:

1) I don't think that the .243 is a great round for New England where most shots are under 45 yards.

I can't think of any reason why .243 wouldn't be effective on any deer in that region of the country at short ranges. It also gives you the flexibility to make shots at much longer ranges as well in a low-recoil package.

2) I had one as a kid and felt terribly under confident.

Why? The lethality of the .243 is hard to dispute for east-coast white-tail. I would be confident to recommend it over any of the more esoteric chamberings or reduced-recoil rounds in the other calibers you mentioned. It's great to be able to walk into any Wal-Mart or hardware store and find the ammo you need.

3) When it comes time to grow out it requires another purchase.

I am 34 years old, 6'-1" and weight 225 lbs. I am not recoil-sensitive, and my go-to gun for white-tail is still an early-90s Remington 700 in .243.

It was the rifle my father bought for my brothers and I to use as teenagers. Why do I still use it? Because it's amazingly accurate and just plain works. Now if I was going after any game larger than our east-coast white-tail, then yes, there are more appropriate calibers. There is no such thing as a do-all gun.

brnmw
November 15, 2012, 03:29 PM
Under 45 yards!? Why on earth would you need any round moving the speed of a .243 for shots under 45 yards? You can throw a spear at the prey from that distance!

Get a nice lever action in .357 or .44 mag. Maybe an older Marlin. I think they make a youth model with a shorter stock.

Kind of have to agree with this one... I did not have to read any further.
My suggestion (Always check for legal status of the gun first obviously) would be: .30-30 Win., .357 Mag., .44 Rem. Mag. Marlin Lever, 7.62X39mm Saiga or SKS. Keep it simple I say. If you want a totally new type of caliber to break the mold then mabye a 7.6240mm Wilson Tactical I think they offer it with hunting bullets not just FMJ's. I also know it was designed for low recoil so that would also be great for a beginner. Good Luck. :)

mickeydim468
November 15, 2012, 03:51 PM
I am probably going to make someone mad, more directly put, the OP.

The way I see it, when you were a kid, whoever taught you to hunt/shoot did you a terrible dis-service. Either they did not listen to you when you brought up your hesitation and skepticism regarding the .243, or they too bought into the hype that a .243 wasn't enough gun for those armor plated eastern deer of yours, and perpetuated the problem for you.

I am 45 years old, I weigh in at 295 lbs and my favorite and most accurate gun in the safe is my .243. I am completely confident that it will take any whitetail deer and have even considered using it on an elk hunt. But I had more appropriate calibers to choose from, so I used my 300 Win Mag.

If you want an exotic round for deer hunting, that's great, get one and use it, but I don't think a young hunter should have to worry about ammo. He should be worried about learning to shoot well. Later on, he can get into the exotics with you, but get him something isn't to complicated to start off with and let him enjoy the sport for a while, while he is becoming more confident on his own, regarding his own shooting abilities.

Best of luck to you. I hope you all the best, and I really hope I didn't make you mad. That really wasn't my intention.

Mike!

RPRNY
November 15, 2012, 04:05 PM
a .243 wasn't enough gun for those armor plated eastern deer of yours

We New Englanders would prefer that you call them by their proper name Deerasaurus Tyrranus. As you know, feeding on cranberries, chowdah, and maple syrup, (and the odd petunia), they grow to massive proportions, are indeed armored, and have big, gnarly teeth (of the saber toothed variety). We believe they really ought to be considered dangerous game. .375 H&H or less at your peril.

valnar
November 15, 2012, 04:38 PM
I vote for the 6.5x55. It satisfies both groups of people - those that say you need something big like a .30, or something like the .243.

.243 people say a .30 is not needed
.30 people say a .243 is not enough

There, done deal.

kanook
November 15, 2012, 05:20 PM
mnrivrat Absolutely nothing wrong with the 243 or the 30-30.


Quote:
Some possible Calibers I'm proposing.
.460 S&W (Start with 45LC and work up to 454 and then 460 as time progresses)
.445 Super Mag (Same thing, but seems much more rare.)
.357 Max (Same as above)

Why would you recommend handgun cartridges for a deer rifle ? Not to mention that you won't find 445 Super Mag or 357 Max as normal Gun store stockage. Or rifles in those calibers other than the single shot break open guns. If the 460S&W, 445 Super Mag, and 357max work at 100yds out of a pistol, why wouldn't they work out of a rifle.

As far as being able to find the 445 supermag and 357max in a normal gun store, he is aware it's not common.

Don't recall seeing where the OP said "no single shot"

The OP wants a "low recoil" rifle, and those are. They are also very effective.

R.W.Dale
November 15, 2012, 05:25 PM
460 s&w from a carbine is anything but low recoil. In fact my experience with such a setup is quite the opposite.


I'm waiting on a 357 Max encore barrel myself but for the interm my youngest can use the 7-08




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shafter
November 15, 2012, 05:59 PM
Marlin 336 or Winchester 94. Classic deer rifles that any boy would do well to start out with. I used a Marlin to take my first two deer. I later switched to the Winchester.

Don't underrate a 357 magnum or 44 magnum levergun. A Winchester 92 replica such as a Rossi would make a good rifle as well. Cheaper practice and softer recoiling. At least with the 357.

Fremmer
November 15, 2012, 06:47 PM
To be fair to the op, i know what he means by not feeling confident with the 243 because the larger calibers are generally considered better for quartering shots, etc. But I think if you give the 243 a chance again you'll like it, and a beginner will shoot it well.

elrowe
November 15, 2012, 06:56 PM
As much as I want to scream .257 Roberts, ammo is a bit iffy unless there's a reloading press nearby - down-loaded 120gr soft points would do well for him starting out if handloads are an option. Another one not yet mentioned is 6.8 SPC on an AR platform (provided your part of New England is that permissive). That would give a modular gun to branch out as he becomes more proficient by changing uppers.

Then again, my grandpa would have said .460 Weatherby Mag. to make a man out of him!!!

627PCFan
November 15, 2012, 07:24 PM
I second the 35 remington lever followed by a smooth bore shotgun at 45 yards. Might as well knockem over-

WaywardSon
November 15, 2012, 07:54 PM
I am 64 and have hunted deer for many years...killed 'em with several different calibers. I am carrying a Remington Model 7 in the woods this year...chambered in .243 Winchester. Why?....for the same reason it makes a great youth gun. It is lightweight, easy to carry, accurate, low recoil and has plenty of power for deer out to at least 250 yards. In short...it is a great choice.

My 11 lb. 45/70 that kicks like a mule has not left the house.

The .243 is a perfect gun for someone just starting out. Go for it.

fpjeepy05
November 15, 2012, 08:17 PM
There is some science behind the .243 being close to underpowered. I know it is plenty sufficient, but what happens in the event of a quartering to shot. If it hits shoulder an 85gr bullet might not drop a big deer after it hits shoulder. If you shoot a 115gr bullet it might help your chances, but now with a simple broad side shot without hitting ribs on either side, you would likely get over penetration and not do enough damage to drop the deer quickly. Does a 100gr solve all the problems, maybe maybe not.

Chuck hawks has a great article about this entitled "The Sectional Density of Rifle Bullets"

He recommends for deer sized game 95gr bullets with the .243 caliber. (sectional density .23)

Momentum is needed to break bone and the heavier the bullet, the more momentum. As you increase the weight of the bullet recoil will also increase.

So in order for recoil to stay the same velocity will have to decrease as weight increases.

As velocity decreases, ballistics drop. But since where this hunter is going to be hunting will not require shots over 100 yards, ballistics is the least concern. So it appears that slow heavy large bore bullets would be the best choice.

[As an aside, larger bore bullets tend to accelerate bullets more efficiently, because essentially there is more surface area on the back of the bullet to push on. It is much more complicated than that. But if you put 10gr of powder behind a 100gr .243 bullet and shoot out of a 20" barrel and then do the same with 10grs of powder behind a 100gr .308 bullet the .308 will be going faster. Since powder charge is a component of recoil this actually makes larger bores recoil less, which is counter intuitive... correct me if I'm wrong here.]

Common slow heavy large bore bullet... Most handgun bullets. Say 44 Mag, only problem I see with this round is when is comes time to "take a trip out west" or "go hunting for Moose or Black bear" you can't really step up without going to a different gun.

Thats why I thought the 45LC, 454 Casull, 460S&W was a good combination.

Bottom line I'd rather see the kid learn the trajectory path of a bullet rather than how to track a wounded deer.

I don't mean to act as though I am answering my own question, but I feel if I can convince you guys of this stuff then I may have a good point, and if I can't than maybe its all just mathematical BS.

As for most of the calibers people are recommending they all seem good. They all also seem to agree with another chuck hawks article "Sensible Rifle Cartridges (Includes the 6mm Rem., .257 Roberts, 6.5x55 Swede, 7x57 Mauser, .300 Savage, .338 Federal and .358 Winchester)"

fpjeepy05
November 15, 2012, 08:43 PM
How about the H&R Buffalo Classic 45LC Rifle (http://www.kygunco.com/hr-buffalo-classic-45lc-rifle-7080). I was just reading that a bunch of guys have had them bored out to 454 Casull. Also can't go wrong for $380

Playing my own devils advocate, Its not hard or expensive to go from a .243 TC encore to a .338 federal encore (If he needed to go to something bigger) just buy another barrel.

RPRNY
November 15, 2012, 09:00 PM
H&R hasn't offered the Classic Carbine in 45LC for several years. I suppose they can still be found. I have one, reamed to 454 Casull, that I built a Mannlicher stock set for. Love it. In heavy Colt loads (and you can load very hot in the H&R) and with 454 loads it kicks a LOT more than a .243 or 7mm-08...

meanmrmustard
November 15, 2012, 09:39 PM
Never felt undergunned using anything legal. They aren't tough animals.

TheCracker
November 15, 2012, 10:05 PM
I say a 270 or 308 w reduced loads is perfect. I moved my 11 y/o daughter up from a 223 (legal in tx) to my 270 with reduced loads. She can defiantly handle it and killed her first deer with it a couple weeks ago @ 40 yards. He ran about 35 yards and piled up. I've had them run farther with full power loads.

Ridgerunner665
November 15, 2012, 10:24 PM
308 Winchester with 125 grain reduced recoil loads...packaged in a short (20"-22" barrel) bolt action...something like a Winchester M70 Featherweight.

http://www.winchesterguns.com/products/catalog/detail.asp?family=001C&mid=535126 ...the "compact", 20" barrel

or...

http://www.winchesterguns.com/products/catalog/detail.asp?family=001C&mid=535109 ... the regular Featherweight, 22" barrel

A rifle the new hunter can ALWAYS cherish...they also come in 243, 7mm-08...and soon to be in 257 Roberts...I'd get the 308 though, versatile, plenty for any game in New England.

I love the lil 243 for coyotes and such, and it kills deer just fine...but I prefer something bigger. I started my son out on a 243, he used it 1 season and bought a 308.

Fremmer
November 15, 2012, 10:24 PM
The 100 grain round is great for deer, and a bad shot with any caliber is a bad deal.

Ar180shooter
November 15, 2012, 11:12 PM
I finished off a deer at about 25 yards last week using a .223 (legal for deer in ON). Went straight through the bottom of the heart and out the other side. The bullets were 60gr Nosler partitions. I'd feel confident taking a deer within 100 yards with a .223. The key is shot placement.

1stmarine
November 16, 2012, 12:40 AM
For those ranges and simplicity get a .223rem and you will be using one of our stndard military rounds. You could also get the 308w and use mild loads but it is too much. the 60gr partition or the 70gr barnes TSX will take down anything on those ranges and well beyond 150 yards.
If you cannot shoot with the .223 then same deal, the 7.62x39 is a no brainer and can practice with cheap steel ammo.
The 30/30 has been also a classic for deer for a long time.
If you do not mind reloading and cannot shoot the .223 but want something budget friendly the 6x45 is a great option. free brass at the range bin and great assortment of bullets. And with a 22" barrel can take deer out to 300 yards if needed one day.
So .223 parent case economic in two flavors.
7.39 no brainer cheep steel ammo to practice.
30/30 more punch than the 7.62x39 but no surplus/bulk ammo option.
The 6x45 is going to be the best of all in terms of ballistics and sustained energy but at those ranges it doesn't matter that much anyway.

my 2 cents.

nathan
November 16, 2012, 12:55 AM
A Ruger Scout rifle in .308 would be nice. Of course it cost more.

WVRJ
November 16, 2012, 12:18 PM
I've been hunting the eastern woods for 35 years and have a large collection of capable deer rifles to choose from.Where I hunt shots can range from right off the barrel to 300+ yards.The rifle I carry most is an older Rem. Model 7 with the 18" barrel.100 grain Speers turn a modest 2500 FPS and it does a great job.It's a cartridge that is hard to outgrow.

Zeke/PA
November 16, 2012, 12:53 PM
Lots of opinions herein.
I've been carrying a 1968 vintage Marlin 336, .35 Remington for the past few years.
Deadly accurate with Hornady Leverloutions and when the deer are hit, they go down and stay down.

6.5x55swedish
November 16, 2012, 01:53 PM
I love my marlin 336 in 35 rem, but good luck finding one now days and be prepared to spend some cash...

I would go with something cheap like a handi-rifle or a dedicated slugger.

6.5x55 is my all time favorite, but there again you are talking about spending some money.

mdauben
November 16, 2012, 02:38 PM
My nephew is just getting into deer hunting, and his dad wants to get him a .243 ect. and I'm just not all for it. .
I honestly don't see why you wouldn't like the .243 for your nephew. A 'bush rifle' is more about the gun than the cartridge ('bush-busting' calibers are a myth). I think it would make a much better first gun than any of the pistol caliber choices you mention.

If it was me, I would suggest either lever action in .30-30 or .44 magnum or else a lightweight bolt action in .243 or 7mm-08. Any of these are easy to find, easy to feed, relatively light recoiling and can serve a hunter for a lifetime.

On the other hand, it will be your -nephew's- rifle so in the end I'd let him pick. As long as it wasn't something totally unsuitable like a long barreled Weatherby magnum! ;)

ssyoumans
November 16, 2012, 03:09 PM
Hands down, 243 Win. I'm 44 years old and still use it for GA deer, took a 165lb buck 2 weekends ago with it using Hornady 95gr SST bullet. Devastating boiler room destruction. I have bigger guns, 308, 30-06, 8mm, but prefer the light weight Marlin XS7 in 243.

I also have a Marlin 336 in 30-30 and a Marlin 1894 in 44 Mag. I would NOT recommend the Marlin 44 mag. It is a light gun and 240gr JHP/JSP kick quite hard out of it. I personally think it kicks more than my 308, but the 308 rifle does weigh more. 30-30 isn't bad for a starter, but even it kicks a bit more than you think. For a kid, ya can't pout a recoil reducing pad on either because then the length of pull is going to be too long.

Go with a 243, its super versatile, from small predators to white tail deer, it works and your son won't grow weary of shooting it like some of the other calibers mentioned. You can always sell it in 2-3 years and not take more than a $50 loss these days, heck, you might even turn a profit.

wlewisiii
November 16, 2012, 04:58 PM
I'm very fond of my old M93 Mauser in 7x57. Even with ammo appropriate to it's 100 year old steel, it's still more than enough for a deer.

OTOH, I'll pick up my Winchester 94 in .30-30 when I go out the door tomorrow. Put a peep sight & a sling on it and you have what is still one of the finest deer rifles ever made.

Hokkmike
November 17, 2012, 11:48 AM
I would suggest the following:

.260
.6.5 x 55
.257 Roberts
7mm 08
7x57

fpjeepy05
November 18, 2012, 05:44 PM
This is self contradicting. First you say you wouldn't recommend the pistol cartridges I listed and then you suggest "30-30 and 44 mag" a pistol cartridge I recommended.

And the "bush busting" cartridges are not a myth. Chuck Hawks - Woods and Brush Guns (http://www.chuckhawks.com/woods_rifles.htm)

.243 is great for long distance flat shooting. Not bush busting.

fpjeepy05
November 18, 2012, 05:46 PM
.243 kicks the same as a 44 mag (http://www.chuckhawks.com/recoil_table.htm)

R.W.Dale
November 18, 2012, 05:47 PM
This is self contradicting. First you say you wouldn't recommend the pistol cartridges I listed and then you suggest "30-30 and 44 mag" a pistol cartridge I recommended.

And the "bush busting" cartridges are not a myth. Chuck Hawks - Woods and Brush Guns (http://www.chuckhawks.com/woods_rifles.htm)

.243 is great for long distance flat shooting. Not bush busting.

The only myth is the wild assumption that chuck hawks actually know what he's talking about on any given subject.

Quoting Mr hawks is a surefire way to discredit yourself in any gun forum.




posted via that mobile app with the sig lines everyone complaints about

R.W.Dale
November 18, 2012, 05:53 PM
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot40.htm

Not exactly scientific but it does show that heavy bullets can be deflected just as much as in the case of the 510g 45/70 vs the 55g sp 223




posted via that mobile app with the sig lines everyone complaints about

Fremmer
November 18, 2012, 05:58 PM
Yep a limb is a good way to screw up any shot from any caliber.

fpjeepy05
November 18, 2012, 06:21 PM
"Lessons learned:
1. Light weight, fast bullets like the .223 were knocked off their axis and deflected more than heavier bullets. In fact, it was flying sideways after 10 yards."

From the link you referenced.

fpjeepy05
November 18, 2012, 06:24 PM
So you think a .243 is just as good of a bush gun as a 12 gauge slug?

akodo
November 18, 2012, 06:25 PM
There isn't a whitetail in existence that will fail to drop from a proper weight 243 bullet but would drop from a 30-30 hitting the same spot.

The 243 will do it out further, with slightly less recoil, and with less adjustment to point-of-aim due to distance.

What the 30-30 has going for it, in a lever action you'll get a faster follow-up shot, and some people think they point better/quicker.

Can a Marlin 30-30 do the job? Yea, but so can a 243 bolt gun....and that same bolt gun can then be taken coyote hunting at any distance as well as pronghorn hunting at all but the longest distances.

And if your Grandson moves (which he probably will, multiple times) he may well end up in a place where whitetail hunting is common but thick woods is not. I can't think of any place in North America were a 243 won't drop the local whitetail.

I see no reason to veer from the 243 bolt gun. A 30-30 lever action (or 30-30 single shot or 30-30 bolt gun) isn't a bad choice. In fact it's a good choice. But 243 is a better choice.

ExAgoradzo
November 18, 2012, 06:29 PM
RWDale is right.
The 243 won't be bad.
6.5x55 for history.
Not a 35 Rem. too much gun for a beginner.
OTOH: the 30-30 (contra Dale) has history, power to spare and 'fun'.
YMMV
Greg

R.W.Dale
November 18, 2012, 07:01 PM
So you think a .243 is just as good of a bush gun as a 12 gauge slug?

Yes better in fact because when you hit those odd open spots in the trees you can actually hit something 100 yds away.

A miss is a miss it doesn't really matter wich way the bullet is deflected. Note how far the 45/70 was knocked off target and how short the test ranges were.

There are brush guns, there are no brush cartridges.

I've had one tiny sprig of weed split a load of buckshot on a deer under 10 yards so wide there were pellets in the lungs farther forward and pellets in the Ham and no pellets in between. In the woods you pick your shots carefully, ensure what your target is and what's in behind AND IN FRONT of it and don't try shooting through crap cause some intarweb expert says you can.




posted via that mobile app with the sig lines everyone complaints about

PoserHoser
November 18, 2012, 07:05 PM
.260 Remington

michael5446
November 18, 2012, 08:59 PM
I know I'm going to get .243 and 30-30. But I was hoping for something different
exactly...
for now the two most cost effective center fire rounds are .223 and 7.62x39... both are fine for deer... any good kill shot requires practice, practice, practice... get a rifle in one of these and a thousand round can of ammo, you are good to go :)))

fpjeepy05
November 18, 2012, 10:41 PM
There isn't a whitetail in existence that will fail to drop from a proper weight 243 bullet but would drop from a 30-30 hitting the same spot.

The 243 will do it out further, with slightly less recoil, and with less adjustment to point-of-aim due to distance.

What the 30-30 has going for it, in a lever action you'll get a faster follow-up shot, and some people think they point better/quicker.

Can a Marlin 30-30 do the job? Yea, but so can a 243 bolt gun....and that same bolt gun can then be taken coyote hunting at any distance as well as pronghorn hunting at all but the longest distances.

And if your Grandson moves (which he probably will, multiple times) he may well end up in a place where whitetail hunting is common but thick woods is not. I can't think of any place in North America were a 243 won't drop the local whitetail.

I see no reason to veer from the 243 bolt gun. A 30-30 lever action (or 30-30 single shot or 30-30 bolt gun) isn't a bad choice. In fact it's a good choice. But 243 is a better choice.
I'm not arguing that a .243 can't do a fine job in ideal situations. Its the less than ideal situations that are tough. What happens if the only shot that you can get, because of brush coverage is a facing away shot or a quartering towards you shot. The first is going to require a head/neck shot or a bullet that can provide extra penetration to go from the hindquarter all the way to the lungs, and the second is going to require a bullet that can do damage after penetration through the front shoulder. Will a .243 do this? Probably. Will it do this on a large deer? Will it do this on a large deer through some light brush? Maybe. Would I feel more confident taking the shot with a 30-06? Probably.
http://www.hunter-ed.com/images/drawings/deer_rear_end.jpg
http://www.hunter-ed.com/images/drawings/aim_deer_quarter_cutaway.jpg

fpjeepy05
November 18, 2012, 10:46 PM
Yes better in fact because when you hit those odd open spots in the trees you can actually hit something 100 yds away.

A miss is a miss it doesn't really matter wich way the bullet is deflected. Note how far the 45/70 was knocked off target and how short the test ranges were.

There are brush guns, there are no brush cartridges.

I've had one tiny sprig of weed split a load of buckshot on a deer under 10 yards so wide there were pellets in the lungs farther forward and pellets in the Ham and no pellets in between. In the woods you pick your shots carefully, ensure what your target is and what's in behind AND IN FRONT of it and don't try shooting through crap cause some intarweb expert says you can.

The 45/70 was not deflected at all. You have to look at where the bullet hit the first target and then look at the second target. Not every bullet was going to hid the orange square.

Buck shot would split cause each pellet is rather small. Much different than a slug.

Steel Talon
November 19, 2012, 01:50 AM
I'm not arguing that a .243 can't do a fine job in ideal situations. Its the less than ideal situations that are tough. What happens if the only shot that you can get, because of brush coverage is a facing away shot or a quartering towards you shot. The first is going to require a head/neck shot or a bullet that can provide extra penetration to go from the hindquarter all the way to the lungs, and the second is going to require a bullet that can do damage after penetration through the front shoulder. Will a .243 do this? Probably. Will it do this on a large deer? Will it do this on a large deer through some light brush? Maybe. Would I feel more confident taking the shot with a 30-06? Probably.

Why would anyone try a Texas heart shot? Even with a TSX or Partition It's a foul shot at best.

A .243 shooting a 95 grain partition to the shoulder itself is not that hard to defeat,or "anchor" the animal

sargents1
November 19, 2012, 02:02 PM
I vote for a Belt Fed M60.
- Low recoil,
- great stopping power.
- Slightly heavy to carry.


Seriously, what is wrong with a .243 Bolt gun OR a 30-30? I have seen both used to effect.

I would prefer the .243 Bolt gun because they have a real safety and some 30-30's just have a half-cock (not ideal for a beginner even if I did start out with one).

BoilerUP
November 19, 2012, 02:29 PM
Why would anyone try a Texas heart shot?

EXACTLY.

Doesn't matter if you're shooting a 223 or a 300WM...that's a shot best left untaken IMO.

On the other hand, a bullet into Mr. Buck's neck just to the left of his ear will make him DRT with damn near any bullet of any centerfire caliber...

Arkansas Paul
November 19, 2012, 02:46 PM
3) When it comes time to grow out it requires another purchase.

If the only animal hunted will be whitetail deer, there's no growing out of either .243 or .30-30. They kill as well as any. I shot a deer at 140 yds with my wife's .243 last year and one this season with my .30-06. They ran about the same distance. You're not undergunned with a .243 or .30-30 as you seem to think. Especially if like you said, the range is going to be no longer than 45 yds. That's where the .30-30 shines man, 150 and in.

jrdolall
November 19, 2012, 04:28 PM
There are a lot of calibers that will do the job on whitetails at 45 yards and, at that distance, it probably makes little difference what you shoot. I see some replies about needing a larger bullet to take a deer that gives you a less than desirable shot and I say that you should not EVER take one of those shots. If the deer does not present a decent broadside or slightly quartering shot then just wait. Shooting a deer in the rear quarters will probably kill the deer but anyone who intentionally takes that shot is, IMHO, unethical. I passed on a 3 yr old 8 pointer this weekend because he was quartering to me at a tough angle and then trotted off through the pines without stopping to give me a good broadside shot. He will be back and I feel better than if I had made a poor shot or missed.
.243 and 30-30 are excellent deer calibers. Both are light recoil and ammo is readily available at any store that sells ammo. There are a lot of other light recoiling guns out there but ammo is not quite as readliy available. The 6.5x55 is excellent but Walmart will not have the ammo. Same with 7mm-08, 22-250, 25-06 and others. Walmart MAY have the ammo as may the little LGS but they will nearly always have the more common calibers. This applies to the low recoil ammo as well since it is not always in every store.
This weekend for opening day we had a guy that thought he put his shells in his gun case but he wound up with no ammo when he got to camp. He was shooting a 30-06 and 3 or 4 guys tried to give him ammo. I always carry an extra box of cheap shells in 30-06, 2.43 and 30-30 in case someone drops a gun and we need to re-sight.

akodo
November 19, 2012, 06:14 PM
I'm not arguing that a .243 can't do a fine job in ideal situations. Its the less than ideal situations that are tough. What happens if the only shot that you can get, because of brush coverage is a facing away shot or a quartering towards you shot. The first is going to require a head/neck shot or a bullet that can provide extra penetration to go from the hindquarter all the way to the lungs, and the second is going to require a bullet that can do damage after penetration through the front shoulder. Will a .243 do this? Probably. Will it do this on a large deer? Will it do this on a large deer through some light brush? Maybe. Would I feel more confident taking the shot with a 30-06? Probably.
http://www.hunter-ed.com/images/drawings/deer_rear_end.jpg
http://www.hunter-ed.com/images/drawings/aim_deer_quarter_cutaway.jpg

Remember, we are contrasting the 243 and the 30-30.

The 30-06 is a heck of a lot more gun than the 243 or the 30-30.

So, for this to have any relevance, tell me of a shot where you think the 30-30 would succeed but the 243 will fail.

Kachok
November 20, 2012, 09:57 AM
So, for this to have any relevance, tell me of a shot where you think the 30-30 would succeed but the 243 will fail.
30-30 has a hella lot more penatration (especaly with 170gr partitions!) so it is by its nature better for off angle or rakeing shots, that said the 243 has never let me down before.

BoilerUP
November 20, 2012, 11:37 AM
The difference in sectional density between the 308 170gr Partition and the 243 100gr Partition is a sectional density of 0.010"...roughly 4%.

Looking at Federal's offerings, the 30-30 170gr load is 2200fps while the 243's 100gr load is 2960fps...25% more velocity.

Rarely does paper ballistics totally match with real-world observations...but the above shows the 30-30 170gr Partition to largely be a wash with the 243 100gr Partition in regards to penetration.

Kachok
November 20, 2012, 12:21 PM
But in the real world we observe that larger calibers of similar SD and bullet construction always penatrate deeper then the smaller ones. This is especaly true at lower speeds such as the 30-30 which can reach supprising levels of penatration given it's modest energy figures. Not alot of "shock cavaty" but it plows through like a John Deer tractor.

targetshooter22
November 20, 2012, 01:55 PM
That's really nice of you to help get someone started in deer hunting. Us deer hunters are a bit of a dwindling breed, and new blood is badly needed. You are doing your fellow sportspeople a great service.

That said, I like the 243, and where I come from, many, many deer met their end from a dirty-thirty as we called 'em. You can't go wrong with either. If you don't like them, in my personal experience, the recoil from a 165 gr 308 in my CZ 550 is very similar to the recoil from a 100 gr 243 in my other CZ 550. Both guns are pretty heavy, and may not be suitable for young or small of stature hunters.

Any chance you could get the new hunter to the range to try out a couple of options from friends and family? Maybe he/she likes levers or bolts or pumps or single shots better and therefore could help make the decision easier? No matter what, I think you would be best off with a really common caliber (e.g. 243, 270, 308, 30-06, 30-30) as in the kind of thing you can buy in a gas station.

Otherwise you could just go big with an 88 Flak.

akodo
November 20, 2012, 08:39 PM
But in the real world we observe that larger calibers of similar SD and bullet construction always penatrate deeper then the smaller ones. This is especaly true at lower speeds such as the 30-30 which can reach supprising levels of penatration given it's modest energy figures. Not alot of "shock cavaty" but it plows through like a John Deer tractor.


I note you are throwing velocity/energy out the window, hence this comparison doesn't hold up. Again, a 30-06 will out perform the 243 in spades.

You have to make the comparison equal in all 3 regards....Sectional Density, Energy, Bullet Construction. Then the only 'variable' is caliber and it's related attributes (i.e. bigger caliber same sectional density means higher overall weight, and because of that, lower overall velocity)

Kachok
November 20, 2012, 11:01 PM
^ I omitted the energy figures because the 30-30 and 243 both push about 2000 ft lbs, so energy is a wash. In that case the advantage in penetration (all else being equal) always goes to the slower, larger caliber. I figure max penetration for a bonded/partitioned 100gr 243 is around the 30" range in 10% BG and the 170gr 30-30 is close to 40" Saw a test the other day where a 180gr 30-06 hit 42" with a 180gr TSX! That is some superb penetration!

fpjeepy05
November 26, 2012, 11:59 PM
Remember, we are contrasting the 243 and the 30-30.

The 30-06 is a heck of a lot more gun than the 243 or the 30-30.

So, for this to have any relevance, tell me of a shot where you think the 30-30 would succeed but the 243 will fail.
Actually it wasn't supposed to be an 243 verses 30-30 discussion. It was a 243 verses over light recoiling caliburs. My suggestions were 44 mag, 45LC +P, 357 max... Good penetration, Good energy transfer, reduced deflection, minimal recoil, availability to go up in power (45LC to 454 or 460) The only downside IMHO is ammo/gun availability, and pumpkin toss trajectory, but under 50 yards that doesn't matter.
I shot 300 whisper during rifle and 50 cal during ML and both put down deer fine. My only concern is confidence, because I felt under confident when I started with 243 and everyone else was shooting 30-06

Abel
November 27, 2012, 05:47 AM
My only concern is confidence, because I felt under confident when I started with 243 and everyone else was shooting 30-06

Half the grown men that I hunt deer with use the 243 to no ill effect that I can see.

jrdolall
November 27, 2012, 07:27 AM
If all shots are under 50 yards then archery seems like a good option.
I don't think there is a "Bad" deer gun for this range. You can't make a deer too dead so a large caliber will work. Pretty much any centerfire rifle will be effective at 50 yds. All kids are different but a light recoil gun that is capable of working in the area he hunts opens up a lot of possibilities from a .223 to a 22-250 to a 243 to a 30-30 and on. After the gun is purchased then it becomes, to me, an issue of ammo availability. Does the local hardware store carry 6.5 Swede? They probably carry 243 and 30-30.
For most hunting applications I would choose the 243 only because of the extended range and the fact that a bolt gun is easier for a kid to use. In all likelihood he will be invited to hunt with someone else in a few years and may need to get out over 200 yards. While the 30-30 will certainly do that, it requires more practice to understand the trajectory than does a 243.

ttheel
November 27, 2012, 08:00 AM
The first rifle that I ever deer hunted with was a Marlin 30-30. I always loved carrying it and sometimes wonder why I still don't. I never had any trouble bringing deer down with it. My first two deer were taken with that gun over 20 years ago, a basket racked 8 point at 90 yards and a big mature 8 point at 30 yards standing over a scrape.

bassdogs
November 27, 2012, 09:20 AM
I love to read thru these type threads and then go back to the original question. In this case, as in many, the issue comes out pretty clear. This is not about the best or even something better, but I suggest it's an uncle / dad that wants to put the kid out in the field with the biggest stick so fellow hunters see him as a real man. Its not the kid who doesn't have confidence in the 243, but rather the dad / uncle who want to be proud when the kid fields a 300 win mag.

I was older when I got into centerfire rifles [lived in a state where you couldn't use them] and bought a 243 and an 06. A close friend who grew up in the woods of Ky always hunted with a 243. I moved here and started practicing with both. To be honest [maybe wimpy] the 06 just kicked my A**. I could lay the 243 on target from short range out to well over 250yds [ran out of space] and there was no recoil flinch. Having seen the pictures and mounts on my friend's wall, there was total confidence that I could drop anything that walked these woods with the 243 and I traded the 06 for a nice 20g pump that my wife could shoot.

I wish people could step back from ?? like this thread and just go out and buy what they want instead of looking for justification from others. Pretty clear here that the others are suggesting the obvious because they are the best choices for the purpose defined here. New youth introduced to hunting for deer, short range NOT rambo heading into the jungle looking for rhino.

inclinebench
November 27, 2012, 09:21 AM
I live in southern appalachia, and it is rare for a shot over about 75 yards unless you are hunting someone's agricultural fields, and even then shots are pretty close. My first deer rifle was a used .30-30, and I still break it out from time to time. I am acutally sending it off to get reblued so that my sons can use it for deer hunting when the time comes. Around here, the .30-30 is just about everyone's first deer rifle, and it is amazing how many guys still use it despite now having .30-06 and .243s in the collection. I know everyone is partial to what they use or used, so I am just another voice in the crowd, but I will suggest a .30-30 to anyone who asks me about a first deer rifle.

CraigC
November 27, 2012, 09:29 AM
I wouldn't ever recommend a marginal cartridge for deer and that's what the .243 is. I know lots of folks like it and that is fine. Nobody gets deer fever like a teenager and light bullets don't like shoulders. Given the short ranges involved, I would strongly recommend a .357 in either a levergun or a single shot. Stoke it with 180gr Gold Dots.

Arkansas Paul
November 27, 2012, 10:34 AM
I wouldn't ever recommend a marginal cartridge for deer and that's what the .243 is.

I shared your thoughts about the .243 until recently. My wife was having trouble with the .308, even with Hodgdon youth loads, so I got her a .243. I killed a deer with it and with a solid behind the shoulder hit, it ran about 30-40 yds. That's about the same as the ol .30-06 does. Well, this past saturday, she got to hunt with it and killed a deer. It got the shoulder a little and man did it tear a hole. An 85 grain Sierra GK BTHP and 36 grains of H380 is a deadly combination let me tell you. The exit hole was the size of a silver dollar. The '06 or .308 either one, make any larger a hole. I'm a believer in it now.
Now that being said, I wouldn't tackle anything much larger than deer with it, but it is a fine whitetail cartridge. Maybe I'll think different if a marginal hit is ever made. We'll see.

45lcshooter
November 27, 2012, 10:55 AM
243 is fine for deer. You need to teach new hunters about shot placement. I did an experiment with ballistic gel an a 17hmr, a 17hmr 17gr bullet has enough power to kill a deer at 100yds. So factory ammo will kill a deer, with proper shot placement. For deer season i use 30-30 and 308, anything over that is overkill.

I known some guys that have special guns made just for whitetail, i ask them why they do that and i get "because it drops them" i asked them if they just shoot brown, they said yep. My thoughts exactly, shot placement is key.

bassdogs
November 27, 2012, 12:05 PM
Yep, the correct answer is what ever you have a fancy to or history yourself. What you don't need is to load the kid up with an elephant gun down loaded with light loads. Many will keep that first gun as a go to but most will also migrate to something else they come to like as they grow and mature. Think its a pipe dream to outfit a new [young] shooter with a gun for all times. All you have to do is read the threads here about a gun for this and a gun for that. If all I'm hunting for is no larger than the biggest white tail, I'm voting for the 243 or the 30-30 with ranges under 100 and out to 200 for the 243. Shot placement is key and a bigger more powerful bullet is not a substitute.

PS I just picked up a used Henry lever youth 22 to introduce my grandkids to shooting. Started them last year with a BB/pellet rifle. Have had it for a couple of weeks and its a blast to shoot. I'm sure the boys [and eventually the girls] will love it.

bassdogs
November 27, 2012, 12:06 PM
Yep, the correct answer is what ever you have a fancy to or history yourself. What you don't need is to load the kid up with an elephant gun down loaded with light loads. Many will keep that first gun as a go to but most will also migrate to something else they come to like as they grow and mature. Think its a pipe dream to outfit a new [young] shooter with a gun for all times. All you have to do is read the threads here about a gun for this and a gun for that. If all I'm hunting for is no larger than the biggest white tail, I'm voting for the 243 or the 30-30 with ranges under 100 and out to 200 for the 243. Shot placement is key and a bigger more powerful bullet is not a substitute.

PS I just picked up a used Henry lever youth 22 to introduce my grandkids to shooting. Started them last year with a BB/pellet rifle. Have had it for a couple of weeks and its a blast to shoot. I'm sure the boys [and eventually the girls] will love it.

bassdogs
November 27, 2012, 12:08 PM
Sorry for the double post

fpjeepy05
November 28, 2012, 11:29 PM
There are some states that only allow shotgun or pistol rounds and they don't seem to have any trouble putting down deer. Also .223 isn't legal in this state, nor would I encourage anyone to use one on anything other than varmints.

Kachok
November 28, 2012, 11:52 PM
243s do the trick, but are limited in penetration without premium bullets, so being picky about your shots is critical, for this reason alone I think of the 243 as more of an experienced rifleman's cartrage. 30-30s have superb penetration but are lackluster in their external ballistics so getting close to your target is vital, also a skill of crafty veterans. Faster 30 cals tend to be a bit harder kicking and are not the cartrage of choice for new recoil shy shooters, keep it under 15lbs recoil for a new shooter. I think the ideal beginners gun would have to be in the .257-.284cal range capable of 2700fps+ speeds to ensure flat trajectory and ideal shot placement within reasonable ranges. 25-06, 257 Roberts, 6.5x55, 260 Rem, 6.5 Creedmore, 7mm-08 and 7x57 would top my list. If someone is capable of a little more recoil I could make a strong case for the 308 and 270 win too.
As someone who reloads I prefer the 6.5x55, 120gr bullets at 3000 fps and sissy kicker recoil, think of it as 270 win lite. But if I used factory fodder I would probably prefer the 25-06 or 7mm-08.

fpjeepy05
November 29, 2012, 08:12 AM
243s do the trick, but are limited in penetration without premium bullets, so being picky about your shots is critical, for this reason alone I think of the 243 as more of an experienced rifleman's cartrage. 30-30s have superb penetration but are lackluster in their external ballistics so getting close to your target is vital, also a skill of crafty veterans. Faster 30 cals tend to be a bit harder kicking and are not the cartrage of choice for new recoil shy shooters, keep it under 15lbs recoil for a new shooter. I think the ideal beginners gun would have to be in the .257-.284cal range capable of 2700fps+ speeds to ensure flat trajectory and ideal shot placement within reasonable ranges. 25-06, 257 Roberts, 6.5x55, 260 Rem, 6.5 Creedmore, 7mm-08 and 7x57 would top my list. If someone is capable of a little more recoil I could make a strong case for the 308 and 270 win too.
As someone who reloads I prefer the 6.5x55, 120gr bullets at 3000 fps and sissy kicker recoil, think of it as 270 win lite. But if I used factory fodder I would probably prefer the 25-06 or 7mm-08.
If long range was important I would agree with 7-08, Or it's dopplegagger 7x57. For shots under 50 yards, I like 357 max, 44 mag, and 45LC +P. Great penetration with still minimal recoil. Also nice because a beginner can shoot 380, 44 special, and 45LC to practice with even less recoil.

Arkansas Paul
November 29, 2012, 10:39 AM
Also nice because a beginner can shoot 380, 44 special, and 45LC to practice with even less recoil.

I think you mean .38 and not .380. Just clarification for any beginners reading this.

vtbluegrass
November 29, 2012, 11:18 AM
Why not take the kid to the range and shot some appropriate calibers and see what he can handle or likes? Some small kids can take the recoil of larger rifles than you might think and some large adults are recoil pansies. Then go to the store with a budget. Let the kid pick. Maybe he wants a gun that looks just like his hunting mentors'. Maybe something completely different.

Fishbed77
November 29, 2012, 02:06 PM
I wouldn't ever recommend a marginal cartridge for deer and that's what the .243 is.

Really?

Remember we are are talking about east coast whitetails. Not the monster midwest variety or muleys.

fpjeepy05
November 29, 2012, 11:11 PM
The North East can get some decent sized animals. My uncle I hunt with got a buck last season that dressed out at 256#.

lefteyedom
November 29, 2012, 11:54 PM
The MOST IMPORTANT THING IS TO GET A RIFLE THAT FITS THE YOUTH NOW.


That rifle (IMHO)would be a bolt action, 18- 20" inch barrel topped with a good quality 3X9X40 scope, sling and a Harris bipod. Such a rifle chambered in 260 or 7-08 is an idea rifle for any deer hunt and excellent youth rifle.

A scout rifle with a traditional over the action mounted scope.

Other calibers that would work well would be 243, 308, 338 fed, 358 win, 257 Roberts (.257X57), 6.5X55, 7X57.

Lever action rifles in 30-30, 35 Remington are fine 150-200 yard deer rifles. A modern light weight bolt action carbine in a 308 class cartridge can extend that range to 400 yards. I love the classic lever action, there are simply better weapons available for the task for the same weight and felt recoil .

Kachok
November 30, 2012, 02:44 AM
^ I would think 358 would be a touch excessive for kids, not to mention deer :) Never shot one with anything larger then a 30 cal 358s are crazy big for whitetail heck I think my 30-06 is a massive overkill, last one it took (earlier this week) left a fist sized hole through the deer with 165gr SGK handloads.

meanmrmustard
November 30, 2012, 06:02 AM
Really?

Remember we are are talking about east coast whitetails. Not the monster midwest variety or muleys.
Which is redundant furthermore, as .223 is a popular cartridge in my North East MO home woods, along with .243 (wssm too), 30-30, and pistol cartridges. Those that some fancy "underpowered". Sounds like compensation to me.

.243 is going to do just fine.

CraigC
November 30, 2012, 12:12 PM
Remember we are are talking about east coast whitetails. Not the monster midwest variety or muleys.
And you don't think I've shot east coast whitetails with the .243??? I've seen 100gr pills blow up on a rib bone. Which is why I no longer own a .243.

Mr. T
November 30, 2012, 05:01 PM
I went with the .270 Win with reduced recoil ammunition for my oldest son who's now a Junior in Highschool. It worked out well for him. However my wife and my daughter both shoot AR's and they've dropped deer with both of them. I was all overly concerned that they didn't have enough caliber, but their deer haven't gone further than 50 yards from point of impact. I think a lot of it depends on the person. If you're looking at the larger caliber option I would have to fully endorse the .270 Win option with the reduced recoil ammunition. The recoil was similar to a .243 Win but it still hit like a .270. My son shot his first deer with this set up at 225 yards. Remington claims that the point of impact is the same as the regular ammunition out to the extent of 200 yards. Any way that deer folded like a house of cards! Good luck!

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