confused on Wolf primers


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crackleback
November 14, 2012, 11:44 PM
I'm getting confused with all the reports on Wolf Primers when used in 223. It seems the Wolf Small Rifle Magnum primers KVB-5.56M works fine with everything but H335 and WC844. I can't find any other ball powders that are an issue with these primers. This primer seems to be the one recommended for all 223 reloading.

Now Wolf has the new Small Rifle 223 primer KVB-223M that they say is "slightly hotter than the SRMP and can be used for powder that is hard to ignite".

If this is the case then why not use the new SR223 KVB-223M for every powder and not have to worry about which one it will or won't ignite? Wouldn't this powder solve the H335 problem and take all the controversy out of the Wolf primer discussions?

I really want to use some Wolf primers and will be using TAC or some type of extruded powder, but I need to be sure of which one to order. This shouldn't be that difficult.

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ArchAngelCD
November 15, 2012, 02:13 AM
If this is the case then why not use the new SR223 KVB-223M for every powder and not have to worry about which one it will or won't ignite? Wouldn't this powder solve the H335 problem and take all the controversy out of the Wolf primer discussions?

I really want to use some Wolf primers and will be using TAC or some type of extruded powder, but I need to be sure of which one to order. This shouldn't be that difficult.
I see no reason not to use the KVB-223M for all your .223 ammo loads. They are on par with the CCI#41 primers which are also magnum strength.

Andrew Leigh
November 15, 2012, 03:42 AM
I think that the Wolf Primer = PMC Primer = Russian Primer, they are merely badged differently for different sellers. We get the "Russian Primer" here. Although I do not use the Small Rifle Magnum Primers perhaps the theory is the same as I believe the priming compound it probably identical.

I use the Russian LRM primers as they tend to run colder / less flame etc. than other primers. Their intensity is more akin to the CCI Bench Rest primer. This is perfect for me as it burns my powder nicely. I tried CCI 250 and these did not work, the recoil changed for the same load and there was smoke from my barrel for the first time. Pulled all the bullets and reprimed, problem gone. Just think that my powder (local one) likes a cooler burning primers.

http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2009/06/primers-small-rifle-primer-study.html

ArchAngelCD
November 15, 2012, 04:18 AM
I think that the Wolf Primer = PMC Primer = Russian Primer, they are merely badged differently for different sellers. We get the "Russian Primer" here.
Actually Wolf primers = Tula primers, both made in the same manufacturing plant in Russia.
PMC primers and ammo are made in South Korean.

Walkalong
November 15, 2012, 07:35 AM
Stick powder may or may not be more accurate with the standard Wolf 5.56M primer, but the .223M (Slightly hotter) primer will certainly work with both ball and stick powders, if you only want to buy one or the other.

They confuse things a little calling the 5.56M "Magnum", but by that they mean the cup is harder, not that is fires hotter. The .223M primer is the hotter primer. I don't know about the cup hardness on it.

hentown
November 15, 2012, 07:39 AM
I recently bought 10k of the "new" Wolf .223 primers. I use small rifle primers for loading .223 and 9mm, but haven't tried the Wolf .223 primers yet. The "regular" Wolf/Tula primers that I use are simply called "small rifle primers." I load exclusively with ball powders...currently 844, AA2200 before I ran out of that.

USSR
November 15, 2012, 07:54 AM
Yes, I agree, the labeling and description of the Russian small rifle primers is confusing. FWIW, I have been using the Russian primers for the past 10 years. Initially, they were imported into the country by a guy in Phoenix, AZ in the Russian factory packaging. I still have a couple thousand of these large rifle primers that were lauded by the top competitive shooters for their low ES and SD numbers. Then, the Russian factory had a contract with PMC, and for a couple of years the PMC primers were made in Russia. At the end of that contract, the Wolf brand got the Russian primers. Don't know if Wolf is still under contract or not, as Tula is the latest brand name to feature the Russian primers.

Don

crackleback
November 15, 2012, 08:13 AM
Hentown:

This is the info I'm looking for but having a hard time finding anyone that can actually confirm their use of the new 223 with some ball powder. Lot of discussion on the regular version vs. the mag primer, but no discussion of the new 223. Maybe the solution is to use the proven KVB-5.56M and just buy powder that is known to work with it.

Andrew Leigh
November 15, 2012, 10:00 AM
Actually Wolf primers = Tula primers, both made in the same manufacturing plant in Russia.
PMC primers and ammo are made in South Korean.
Thanks for clearing that up, was not too sure. We definately get the "Russian" primers locally, I swear by them.

hentown
November 15, 2012, 07:23 PM
Hentown:

This is the info I'm looking for but having a hard time finding anyone that can actually confirm their use of the new 223 with some ball powder. Lot of discussion on the regular version vs. the mag primer, but no discussion of the new 223. Maybe the solution is to use the proven KVB-5.56M and just buy powder that is known to work with it.

I need to load up about 1000 rounds of .223. I'll probably get around to it in a week or so. I'll make a point of trying the Wolf .223 primers; however, I don't expect different results from their "regular" small rifle primers. I think the .223 primers are supposed to be a little harder, just to mitigate possible AR slamfires. I've never had a slamfire, and I've also never used a magnum primer with any of the .223 reloading that I've done.

My main concern with the .223 primers is whether they'll ignite o.k. in my G17.

Walkalong
November 15, 2012, 07:45 PM
I'll make a point of trying the Wolf .223 primers; however, I don't expect different results from their "regular" small rifle primers. I think the .223 primers are supposed to be a little harder, just to mitigate possible AR slamfires.My understanding, right or wrong, is that the 5.56M is the same priming compound as the standard small rifle primer, but with a harder cup for use in ARs and other autos. The .223M is the magnum strength (hotter) primer, with a cup of unknown (to me) hardness.

ArchAngelCD
November 16, 2012, 12:38 AM
I hope this helps clear up some of the confusion. There are 3 SR primers on the Wolf Site (http://www.wolfammo.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=5&Itemid=16) right now confirming what's on the Widener's site.
This is directly from the Widener's Site (http://www.wideners.com/itemdetail.cfm?item_id=8975&dir=278|284|737):
Wolf 223 Small Rifle Primer ( Part # QQQSR223) - NEW
Wolf small rifle primers are now available in types.

SMALL RIFLE PRIMER (part # QQQSR) - Used as a standard small rifle primer. Perfect for the 30 carbine and 223 standard loads. Many people use this primer in bench and other loads for the 223. This primer is a copper colored primer. (Wolf part # NCSR)

SMALL RIFLE MAGNUM PRIMER (part# QQQSRM) - This is the primer we had before for use in the 5.56 loads and hot 223 loads. A thick cup for the higher pressure. We sold a lot of these primers earlier this year. The new lot is brass colored instead of nickel. (Wolf part # NCSRM)

SMALL RIFLE 223 (part # QQQSR223) NEW NEW This is the newest primer available in the Wolf line. It is ever so slightly hotter than the small rifle magnum primer and it comes with a brass or copper colored thick cup. This primer can be used in place of the SRM primer or used when a different powder is used that is hard to ignite. (Wolf part # NC223)

JUST A NOTE: If you go to the Widener's link I provided above you will see the new NC223/QQQSR223 Wolf primers are only $14.50/1000 or only $70/5000!!! The Tula primers on Powder Valley are $102.50/5000.

Henry45
November 16, 2012, 08:03 AM
SMALL RIFLE 223 (part # QQQSR223) NEW NEW This is the newest primer available in the Wolf line. It is ever so slightly hotter than the small rifle magnum primer and it comes with a brass or copper colored thick cup. This primer can be used in place of the SRM primer or used when a different powder is used that is hard to ignite. (Wolf part # NC223)


Used these yesterday at the range in a AR. Worked flawlessly. No problems loading or unloading them! :) An excellent buy at 14.50. I bought 10000. Glad I did and will probably buy more now after the test.

crackleback
November 16, 2012, 09:35 AM
I'm not trying to complicate this but consider this: when you look at the Wolf website they list 3 SR primers, but ONLY the item# NCSRM is listed as a magnum primer.

Coincidentally Wideners list the KVB556M as their item# QQQSRM. Also coincidentally Tula uses the same item types and lists their magnum as a SRM.

http://www.wolfammo.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=5&Itemid=120

This tells me the KVB556M is the magnum and the most likely to succeed with most powders. The SMALL RIFLE 223 (part # QQQSR223) NEW NEW appears listed as NC223 and does not carry the magnum designation.

What do you think??

I talked to both Wolf and Wideners on the phone yesterday and neither seemed confident in identifying the true magnum primer. It's no wonder folks are hesitant to use the Wolf primers as the people that sell them don't have a clue.

Ky Larry
November 16, 2012, 04:06 PM
I'm looking at a card of PMC small rifle primers, a card of PMC large rifle mag primers, and a card of PMC large pistol mag primers and they are all marked "Made in Russia."

USSR
November 16, 2012, 06:52 PM
I'm looking at a card of PMC small rifle primers, a card of PMC large rifle mag primers, and a card of PMC large pistol mag primers and they are all marked "Made in Russia."

Yes, as I said "...the Russian factory had a contract with PMC, and for a couple of years the PMC primers were made in Russia".

Don

ArchAngelCD
November 17, 2012, 01:36 AM
I'm not trying to complicate this but consider this: when you look at the Wolf website they list 3 SR primers, but ONLY the item# NCSRM is listed as a magnum primer.

Coincidentally Wideners list the KVB556M as their item# QQQSRM. Also coincidentally Tula uses the same item types and lists their magnum as a SRM.

http://www.wolfammo.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=5&Itemid=120

This tells me the KVB556M is the magnum and the most likely to succeed with most powders. The SMALL RIFLE 223 (part # QQQSR223) NEW NEW appears listed as NC223 and does not carry the magnum designation.

What do you think??

I talked to both Wolf and Wideners on the phone yesterday and neither seemed confident in identifying the true magnum primer. It's no wonder folks are hesitant to use the Wolf primers as the people that sell them don't have a clue.

The word "Magnum" means nothing but what the manufacturer wants it to mean. SAAMI does not regulate what Magnum means and actually, a Magnum is a very large bottle of campaign, not a cartridge or primer! :p

The Russians don't have to think like many American shooter do or comply with American advertizing. (read propaganda) They do not have to call something "magnum" for it to be "hot".

For example, European ammo has no BS labeling of +P and doesn't charge more for a little extra velocity like American manufacturers do. Much of their ammo is way "hotter" than what American ammo manufacturers "call" +P but nowhere on their box does it say so. CIP standards list 21,500 PSI as the pressure limits for a .38 Special and there are no +P listings with CIP.

So, is the new Wolf Primer designated for use with the .223 hotter than the SRM primer? I don't make them so I can't state 100% for sure but I also see no reason to believe they are not, just as it's written on the Widener site. You can't hold foreign companies to the false advertizing American companies use. :uhoh:

mdemetz
November 17, 2012, 09:45 AM
Now Tula has a SP 9x19 NATO primer(KVB9SP).

greyling22
November 17, 2012, 11:31 AM
I was bummed to discover that my latest batch of tula SPP had abandoned silver primers and gone to gold. I don't think they slide down my lee primer chutes as well and I know they're not as pretty. And it leaves a faint gold patina on my primer trays...... :(

they still go bang though.

crackleback
November 17, 2012, 06:54 PM
I'm not trying to complicate this but consider this: when you look at the Wolf website they list 3 SR primers, but ONLY the item# NCSRM is listed as a magnum primer.

Coincidentally Wideners list the KVB556M as their item# QQQSRM. Also coincidentally Tula uses the same item types and lists their magnum as a SRM.

http://www.wolfammo.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=5&Itemid=120

This tells me the KVB556M is the magnum and the most likely to succeed with most powders. The SMALL RIFLE 223 (part # QQQSR223) NEW NEW appears listed as NC223 and does not carry the magnum designation.

What do you think??

I talked to both Wolf and Wideners on the phone yesterday and neither seemed confident in identifying the true magnum primer. It's no wonder folks are hesitant to use the Wolf primers as the people that sell them don't have a clue.
ArchAngel:

That makes sense. And I've seen no complaints on the SR223 (NC223) so I'm sure it will work for my applications. Much thanks for you input.

Walkalong
November 17, 2012, 09:39 PM
From Wideners: My Bold
SMALL RIFLE PRIMER (part # QQQSR) - Used as a standard small rifle primer. Perfect for the 30 carbine and 223 standard loads. Many people use this primer in bench and other loads for the 223. This primer is a copper colored primer.

SMALL RIFLE MAGNUM PRIMER (part# QQQSRM) - This is the primer we had before for use in the 5.56 loads and hot 223 loads. A thick cup for the higher pressure. We sold a lot of these primers earlier this year. The new lot is brass colored instead of nickel.

SMALL RIFLE 223 (part # QQQSR223) NEW NEW This is the newest primer available in the Wolf line. It is ever so slightly hotter than the small rifle magnum primer and it comes with a brass colored thick cup. This primer can be used in place of the SRM primer or used when a different powder is used that is hard to ignite.

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