357 vs 30-30 (brush-busting-whitetail rifle)


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Muzzlelover
November 15, 2012, 11:50 PM
which would you choose the 357 mag. or the 30-30,either one would be in a h&r handi-rifle.the farthest shot would be 200 yds. (the savage axis that I was talking about is supposed to be a gift)I might(very rarely)also shoot a few rabbits and squirrels.Thank ya.

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R.W.Dale
November 15, 2012, 11:53 PM
As much as I like the 357 mag the only way it becomes a 200 yd deer round is by reaming it out to a maximum.

Then and only then does 357 best 30-30 for deer up to 200 and only then because it'd be more versatile on smaller game with the ability to shoot specials, magnums and maximums




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firesky101
November 15, 2012, 11:57 PM
If you handload, and have the single shot, 30-30 can be even more effective with pointed bullets. On the other hand .357 handloaded with slow powders tailored to a rifle barrel can get some impressive energy. Still 30-30 wins on the ballistics.

ColtPythonElite
November 16, 2012, 12:04 AM
200 yds, whitetail, and .357 should not even be in the same sentence together.

ECVMatt
November 16, 2012, 12:47 AM
I love the .357 in a rifle and have three, but I would not shoot deer with it at that distance. .30/30 is a much better choice. Get some Leverevolution and you will be good to go.

CraigC
November 16, 2012, 12:51 AM
The .357 really comes into its own in a levergun but it will never be a 200yd cartridge for anything but blasting at inanimate objects. If 200yd shots are in the cards, the .30-30 is your best choice between the two.


On the other hand .357 handloaded with slow powders tailored to a rifle barrel can get some impressive energy.
The usual suspects that yield the highest velocities in revolvers will also yield the highest velocities in rifles. Powders are chosen for the cartridge and its pressure range, not barrel length.

1stmarine
November 16, 2012, 01:01 AM
The 30-30 gives more reach. That is a classic.
Some people have compared the 7.62x39 and even the .300 whisper/blackout to this but they are not even close and people to lazy to look it up.
Teh 30-30 can drive a 150gr bullet at the same speeds the 7.62x39 can drive a 123gr bullet and even a tad faster. The blackout even less.
The .357 is an amazing option too but then it doesn't have the range due to difference in ballistics and terminal performance.
For close brush hunting either one but for the occasional 200 yards shot then the 30-30.

Art Eatman
November 16, 2012, 01:01 AM
No such thing as "brush busting" bullets. Myth.

What counts is the distance from some limb in the brush to the target. Even a .45-70 bullet will deflect. If the brush is close to the target, even pointed bullets can hit close to the general point of aim.

But comparing .357 to .30-30, the .30-30 is bunches more Oomph.

1stmarine
November 16, 2012, 01:15 AM
I agree with you Art. I meant in the sense that those scenarios normally imply closer ranges line in the norther woods here but one should not be shooting through bushes.

firesky101
November 16, 2012, 01:21 AM
The usual suspects that yield the highest velocities in revolvers will also yield the highest velocities in rifles. Powders are chosen for the cartridge and its pressure range, not barrel length.

I agree that case/bore ratio and bullet weight have the most to do with it, but you can sneak a little more out by using a powder like lil' gun. Not one of the best performers out of a 4"(no slouch either), but a heck of a powder in a 16" carbine.

Inebriated
November 16, 2012, 01:35 AM
.30-30 will be a better all-around hunting cartridge.

And with Hornady's LEVERevolution, you get a nice little leap in bullet performance.

Arkansas Paul
November 16, 2012, 02:15 AM
If your range was 100 yds max, I'd say get whichever gun you liked better.
Being that your range could extend to 200 yds, don't even consider the .357 mag. I may get some flaming for this, but IMO, 200 yds is getting close to the limit of the .30-30. I realize that the new Hornady stuff shoots a little flatter than most rounds tailored for the rifle, but it's wheelhouse is still 150 and in.

And go ahead and get that "brush busting" thought out of your head. That round doesn't exist. If there's brush between you and the deer, don't shoot.

allaroundhunter
November 16, 2012, 02:21 AM
I would take the .30-30 for deer over the .357.....

I might(very rarely)also shoot a few rabbits and squirrels.

And I would take neither for that role. Ever.

Arkansas Paul
November 16, 2012, 02:23 AM
I was thinking that too allaroundhunter. Squirrels generally reside in trees (I know that's news to everyone) and I don't think I would go shooting either up into the air.

allaroundhunter
November 16, 2012, 02:30 AM
I was thinking that too allaroundhunter. Squirrels generally reside in trees (I know that's news to everyone) and I don't think I would go shooting either up into the air.

That was the main thing.....and then I also like being able to find/eat what I shoot ;)

Even a .22 Mag is borderline too much gun for tree rats.

BCRider
November 16, 2012, 03:35 AM
In a handy rifle and assuming you reload you have a vast array of boat tail sharp nosed hunting rounds in the .308 bullet size which could be used in a .30-30 case.

For varmints and small game load up some light handgun powder rounds with 100 to 110gn bullets intended to be used in the .30 Carbine ammo. Powder them up so they come out at around 900 to 1000 fps and it should do nicely on the smaller stuff. Some testing might be needed to find out how it works with the rifling twist rate. But if it works you've got a wide range of options in the world of .308 bullets.

Just be sure that the pointy stuff doesn't find it's way into a lever rifle that has a tubular magazine.

lefteyedom
November 16, 2012, 03:56 AM
the 30-30 unless your 357 is a 35 Remington///

Dr.Rob
November 16, 2012, 04:15 AM
30-30 by far. 200 yards is easily within range for a 30-30, 200 is a FAR stretch for most handgun rounds. The drop is significant, and the energy is WAY down compared to 30-30.

Husker_Fan
November 16, 2012, 08:33 AM
With the parameters you've laid out, I agree with others on the .30-30. However, the ranges that I think of with a brush gun are more like 80 yards and less. In that case, I think either would be fine.

Abel
November 16, 2012, 09:06 AM
On a scale of 1 to 10, for your intended use, with 1 being the worst:

357...1.75

30-30...9.75

Jason_W
November 16, 2012, 09:12 AM
Both are deer capable within their range limitations and the right load.

I actually wouldn't choose either as a brush round, though.

sansone
November 16, 2012, 09:19 AM
the 30-30 is better for what the op described, I chose a 357 levergun years ago just because I owned a 357 revolver.

Turned out the levergun shot better with reloads, slower powder (lil gun) which was too slow for the 4" revolver. So I had two different types of ammo anyway

helotaxi
November 16, 2012, 09:57 AM
I agree that case/bore ratio and bullet weight have the most to do with it, but you can sneak a little more out by using a powder like lil' gun. Not one of the best performers out of a 4"(no slouch either), but a heck of a powder in a 16" carbine.
The only reason that this works in the .357 and some of the other handgun cartridges is that the "normal" load with standard pistol powders leaves a lot of empty space in the case. Even a full load of H110 only fills the case about 2/3 full. Going to a slower powder that can take advantage of that space to reach full pressure (but actually needs some barrel and the absence of a cylinder gap to make it happen) will perform better in a carbine. The difference isn't huge though and the carbine loads will not perform well from a pistol eliminating the interchangeable ammo capability which makes the .357 an appealing carbine cartridge in the first place.

Even with the best loads, though the .30-30 is the better deer cartridge. More energy and sectional density up close and when you factor in something like the Leverevolution ammo that offer an increase of 33% in ballistic coefficient with no reduction in velocity compared to a standard 150gn RN or FP load, you get a rifle that is not reaching to make a clean kill out to around 200yds.

RPRNY
November 16, 2012, 10:16 AM
Why choose between them?

Ream your 357 Handi chamber to 35-30/30 (35/30) or rebore your 30-30 to .35 cal ($250 returned from JES).

Cheap available brass that is easily formed by neck sizing alone and for which reasonably priced dies are available, like $60 from CH4D, a rimmed cartridge which Handi's prefer, and the ability to load 300 gr gas checked hard cast bullets to 1800 fps at one end of the spectrum or 200 gr jacketed spitzers to 2,400 fps at the other. You get a 100 yd brush busting thumper and a very effective 200 yd rifle with a change in load.

303tom
November 16, 2012, 10:40 AM
which would you choose the 357 mag. or the 30-30,either one would be in a h&r handi-rifle.the farthest shot would be 200 yds. (the savage axis that I was talking about is supposed to be a gift)I might(very rarely)also shoot a few rabbits and squirrels.Thank ya.
That is a no-brainer, the .30 WCF no if &`s or buts...............

CraigC
November 16, 2012, 11:45 AM
And I would take neither for that role. Ever.
Either cartridge would do perfectly fine for small game but not with your deer load.

6.5x55swedish
November 16, 2012, 12:00 PM
for a 200 yard shot the 30-30 is going to be a poor choice as well. You will have to choose your ammo carefully or at 200 yards you will be at 500 fp and 8 inches low.... Neither a good combo for deer.

I have a handi-rifle in 223 that has taken many deer... with the caliper option of that gun I would consider something fast like a 22-250

CraigC
November 16, 2012, 12:05 PM
for a 200 yard shot the 30-30 is going to be a poor choice as well. You will have to choose your ammo carefully or at 200 yards you will be at 500 fp and 8 inches low.... Neither a good combo for deer.
Oh please, 200yds is a chipshot for the .30-30. :rolleyes:

1stmarine
November 16, 2012, 12:14 PM
Chipsot?

http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z327/fotoeiro/Chorradas/vincent-price-o-rly.gif

It is nice to have a good sense of humor....

http://www.hornady.com/store/30-30-Win-160-gr-Z-MAX/

.
.
.

CraigC
November 16, 2012, 12:21 PM
Uh, yeah. Or have I stumbled into a "you need a .300Mag to shoot deer at 200yds" discussion??? :confused:

helotaxi
November 16, 2012, 12:24 PM
for a 200 yard shot the 30-30 is going to be a poor choice as well. You will have to choose your ammo carefully or at 200 yards you will be at 500 fp and 8 inches low.... Neither a good combo for deer.The 8" is easily accounted for and the 500fpe number is way off. The Speer 150gn bullet at 2300fps is about 7.5" down at 200 with a 100yd zero but the energy is just shy or 1000lb. The Hornady FTX Leverevolution reduces that to 6.7" and keeps the energy up over 1100fpe at 200. With a 150yd zero, the FTX load keeps 200yds within point blank range. More important than energy though is the fact that the bullet is still within its performance envelope. Doesn't really matter how much energy the bullet is carrying if it fails to expand and makes a caliber sized hole right through the deer.

RPRNY
November 16, 2012, 12:28 PM
The 30-30 loaded for the Handi with spitzer bullets is perfectly capable of 200 yard accuracy. You can't use SAAMI spec ammo ballistics and loads safe for 100 year old lever guns to judge performance in a rifle that can (with an SB2 receiver) be safely loaded to 65,000 psi. Getting 2600 fps with 150 gr spitzer and Leverevolution powder or even Varget is not a stretch.

But again, 35-30/30 is the answer to the OP's quest.

WVRJ
November 16, 2012, 01:07 PM
I have a 1894 Marlin in 357,and with 180 gr Partitions,it is a 100 yard deer round,period.The 30-30 with good handloads with pointed bullets should be able to swing a 200 yard shot.I have done it several times with my 7X30 Waters Contender carbine.Forget it with the blunt 357 bullets and at the velocities the cartridge will turn.

1stmarine
November 16, 2012, 01:40 PM
People hunted for many generations with the lever rifles like the Winchester rifles from the 1866 to the famous 1894 with cartridges like the 44-40,
38-55, etc.. and the 30-30 itself and took more deer than we would ever dream to take.
Now all the sudden some feel we need a bazooka to harvest deer.

Neither the bull nor the hunter read current hunting magazines or they'd know that 30-30 bullets bounce off any animal larger than jack rabbits..

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c146/rushmoreman/bullelkWinchester.jpg

The 30-30 and hornady loads do very well. All those nonsense 'technicalities' are worthless.
Read less and practice more.

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j312/Rangerclay/LeveRevolution.jpg?t=1273411189

Steel Talon
November 16, 2012, 01:45 PM
For me to answer correctly I First need to know what does a ("brush-busting-whitetail rifle") mean to you?

6.5x55swedish
November 16, 2012, 02:13 PM
For those of you who have poor comprehension skills I am going to re-highlight my post.

You will have to choose your ammo carefully or at 200 yards you will be at 500 fp and 8 inches low.... Neither a good combo for deer.

Off course the 8 inch drop and 500is fp isn't the rule, which is why I said choose carefully.

People recommended hornady for his 200 yard shot... So the OP walks into the sport shop to buy a box of shells... says to the 16 year old in the ammo dept... "I was told to buy hornady shells for my 30-30, but I don't remember what type... they go to the shelf and the options are"
150 gr RN interlock
160 gr evolution
170 gr FP interlock

The 160 is the only one that puts out more than 1000 fp at 200 yards so he has a 2-1 chance of grabbing the wrong ammo.... And guess what isn't printed on the box? The ballistic information.

Nobody needs to get their panties in a bunch thinking I was downplaying the 30-30...My first rifle was a 30-30 and it is a good gun, but it has limitations...(brush busting being one of them) The average sportsman can't make a good 200 yd shot with a 30-30... so an obvious beginner should not be encouraged to do so.

CraigC
November 16, 2012, 02:27 PM
The average sportsman can't make a good 200 yd shot with a 30-30... so an obvious beginner should not be encouraged to do so.
Hogwash. If you can't be bothered to learn enough about ballistics to be able to make a 200yd shot with the .30-30, you probably shouldn't be in the woods in the first place.

6.5x55swedish
November 16, 2012, 02:37 PM
I consider this guy above average... he has over 880 shooting videos uploaded.

As you can see.. the first shot is a clean miss.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-E2wtbTrLi8

R.W.Dale
November 16, 2012, 02:52 PM
30-30 by far. 200 yards is easily within range for a 30-30, 200 is a FAR stretch for most handgun rounds. The drop is significant, and the energy is WAY down compared to 30-30.

While as a comparison to 30-30 this is absolutely factual I'd like to point out that from a carbine even at an extreme range of 200yds 357 magnum is a great deal more powerful than you might expect.

Just for example my pet load for 158g bullets leaves the muzzle of a 22" rolling block at appx 1800fps. At 200y downrange that bullet is still moving just shy of 1200 which just happens to be what the load gets at the muzzle of a 6" revolver.

Or in other words just accounting for terminal ballistics shooting a deer at 200 with a 357 rifle is like sticking the barrel of a revolver against its hide and pulling the trigger.

I still think that for the rifles listed though reaming the 357 to Maximum would be the more appealing option for me. (Why I'm waiting on an encore bbl) I had one in the past and even without much load development it was putting out 500fps + over 357mag in the same bbl and can still shoot two other cartridges.




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jwrowland77
November 16, 2012, 02:58 PM
I would say .30-30 just because of the round nose bullet that can punch through briars.

I use a 7mm rem mag hand loaded with Hornady RN bullets since I hunt briars.

R.W.Dale
November 16, 2012, 03:03 PM
I would say .30-30 just because of the round nose bullet that can punch through briars.
.

I'm going to say this respectfully first as others will probably be less so addressing this claim but with all due respect bullets speed or shape having an effect on deflection through vegetation is an absolute myth.




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Dr.Rob
November 16, 2012, 04:31 PM
RW Dale... with handloading a lot more is possible. The 357 also suffers from stubby bullets with the ballistic profile of a semi wadcutter--great for hard cast hog busting, not so great for long range shooting.

I was thinking about factory ammunition compared side by side.

I know that I used to shoot bowling pins at 250 yards with ease with a Marlin 30-30 lever gun. (Recall the drop was domething like 7 inches.. hold at the top of the pin, still hit it.) With my 44 mag 1894 marlin, it's like I can't hold high enough to make a hit at 150. There's a substantial rainbow like trajectory for many of those pistol rounds. A scope makes a big difference, but still more up and down in the pistol rounds than rifle rounds.

I know for sure you can kill an antelope at range with a 30-30. ;)

RPRNY
November 16, 2012, 04:35 PM
I'm going to say this respectfully first as others will probably be less so addressing this claim but with all due respect bullets speed or shape having an effect on deflection through vegetation is an absolute myth.

True-dat. You have to grease 'em with hawg fat first. THEN, they'll slide right through the brush.



If you do decide to go 357 in the Handi, unless you have a 357 Mag revolver, there's no NEED to ream to Max. The Max case is designed to ensure that hot loaded 357 isn't put into a revolver. With the exception of using the absolutely heaviest bullets, you can load Max in a 357 Mag case for the Handi. Of course, if you pop your clogs and the wife gives your handloads to a friend....

R.W.Dale
November 16, 2012, 04:39 PM
True-dat. You have to grease 'em with hawg fat first. THEN, they'll slide right through the brush.



If you do decide to go 357 in the Handi, unless you have a 357 Mag revolver, there's no NEED to ream to Max. The Max case is designed to ensure that hot loaded 357 isn't put into a revolver. With the exception of using the absolutely heaviest bullets, you can load Max in a 357 Mag case for the Handi. Of course, if you pop your clogs and the wife gives your handloads to a friend....

Maximum brass yeilds a quite substantial increase in case capacity that's necessary to achieve the numbers it produces. Its not "just longer to not fit" in a magnum. The assertion that you can load Max data in mag brass is a patently false and dangerous one.


As previously stated you have the case capacity to use almost 10 more grains of powder with maximum brass over mags and the resulting velocity boost that entails. Magnums cannot even come close to these performance levels. A maximum case is actually longer than the Max COL for magnums.

The conversion to Max from mag is little more than renting a reamer for $60 and about 10 minutes




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shafter
November 16, 2012, 04:40 PM
For what you want to do with it I'd say 30-30 is best. I like to use my 357 levergun for whitetails but where I hunt 100 yards is the absolute max.

1stmarine
November 16, 2012, 04:51 PM
Or in other words just accounting for terminal ballistics shooting a deer at 200 with a 357 rifle is like sticking the barrel of a revolver against its hide and pulling the trigger.
Very good analogy.
...And the 30.30 FTX at 200 yards would be like putting an AK47 with a 150gr load against the deer's hide and pulling the trigger. Or my 44 magnum for similar effects. But No! that would not even put a scratch on the game! lol!!
If is not able to compensate for a couple of moa or three then they should not be hunting.

I regret didn't attend the youtube or facebook university. So many 'experts' in there. LOL

CraigC
November 16, 2012, 05:11 PM
The problem with the .357 or any other revolver round at 200yds is not killing ability of the cartridge. It's hitting ability of the shooter when the bullet starts dropping like a stone.

RPRNY
November 16, 2012, 05:50 PM
Maximum brass yeilds a quite substantial increase in case capacity that's necessary to achieve the numbers it produces. Its not "just longer to not fit" in a magnum. The assertion that you can load Max data in mag brass is a patently false and dangerous one.

Not sure how to sugar coat this for you. Your assertion is incorrect when loading for the Handi rifle. To seat 200 gr + bullets, throating may be needed but you're not going to exceed 23.5 grs of H110 in a Max unless your are trying to turn it into a varmint round with low weight bullets, and that will comfortably fit in a Mag case. I am speaking specifically about the Handi where seating depth is a good deal more flexible. It may be that you are unfamiliar with the Handi rifle and its advantages in this regard, so I will act with restraint in my response.

But I urge you to dismount from your high horse and desist from further spurious assertions.

DeadFlies
November 16, 2012, 05:52 PM
The .30-30 will do everything a .357 will do plus more and with better sectional density given the same weight bullet.

R.W.Dale
November 16, 2012, 05:59 PM
I've owned TWO 357 Max handi rifles I assure you the only incorrect assertions being made are yours.

You might get one long bullet design to catch a little case on a 357 mag casing but that doesn't make it correct and if it requires throating why in the =` wouldn't you use a Max reamer to do that throating?

With so little neck tension where only the heel of the bullet is in the case velocities with magnum handgun ball powders will be erratic at best.

Lastly you're entire long seating theory ignores the fact that the exact same principal can be applied to a maximum case too.

You really should just admit you're wrong here because unlike you I have actual experience with the cartridge gun combination being discussed here. Or you can keep living in fantasy land where magnum = maximum

Please enlighten us what loads have you shot from your 357 mag handi rifles?




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Jason_W
November 16, 2012, 06:08 PM
If I were to choose a brush gun it would throw a large, wide projectile to maximize the blood trail.

I'm pretty bad at deer hunting so I can't say first hand, but I imagine that in the really thick stuff, tracking an animal you shot could be tricky.

1stmarine
November 16, 2012, 06:13 PM
All bullets drop at the same rate that is dictated by the force of gravity. The .357 happens to be exposed to that force for a little bit longer.
On a burris timberline with ballistic plex (little dandy scope) the holdover is a tad below the second subtension. It is a good thing gravity doesn't change.

RPRNY
November 16, 2012, 06:31 PM
Okay, this is The High Road, so I will keep it civil. You are wrong. And your righteous indignation is neither justified nor welcome.

Proven:

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa272/LRDG/Photos%20without%20easy%20description/200FTXloads.jpg

Far left:
Case length is 1.285", primer CCI 400, 16.7 gr. IMR 4227, Bullet 200 gr. FTX and COAL is 2.15". MV 1650 fps.

Far left: bullet seated off the lands. Middle: seating to touch the lands. No throat reaming needed.

R.W.Dale
November 16, 2012, 08:00 PM
I hate to bust your bubble but real maximum loads will do over 2k fps with 200g bullets. Congratulations you've proven you can barely stick a bullet in a case and achieve NONE of maximums performance gains

What's the ES with that load ? Do you even know what that means

You're also using a bullet that will have absolutely 0 chance of expansion even 100 much less 200 yds downrange at those low muzzle velocities.






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RPRNY
November 16, 2012, 08:15 PM
I've given you facts; you've given us unsupported opinions. Your conduct is both unbecoming and revealing. You are dismissed.

R.W.Dale
November 16, 2012, 08:22 PM
What facts? all you've asserted is you can only slightly stick a bullet in a magnum case.

Answer this simple question does a 357 magnum case have the same case capacity with a bullet seated to X depth in the case as a maximum with the same amount of bullet showing?

I'm at work currently, I will share some of my load notes later. In the interm I again ask what load experience DO YOU have with this combination?

Meanwhile read and learn http://357maximum.com/




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303tom
November 16, 2012, 11:34 PM
Here is what I use in my Handi-rifle & they are damn near pushing .308 Win. numbers.......

Muzzlelover
November 16, 2012, 11:59 PM
what type of powder how many grains do you use 303tom?

R.W.Dale
November 17, 2012, 12:38 AM
Here is what I use in my Handi-rifle & they are damn near pushing .308 Win. numbers.......

They go over 3000 fps? ??

Has this been verified over a Chronograph?




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Clark
November 17, 2012, 01:24 AM
My grandfather [1883 -1965] told me he hunted mountain goat with a 30-30 and sold the meat to the tavern in the Alaskan Gold rush.

That must have been before all the goats were gone, because in a Klondike News story, he found one of the missing bags of Gold when the entire town was deputized after a robbery. His occupation at that time said he worked in a sluice box.

Art Eatman
November 17, 2012, 01:25 AM
Squabbling over ballistics doesn't answer the original question. Bunches of emotion don't help, either. Enough for one night.

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