9mm Cast lead. Glock.


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blarby
November 16, 2012, 11:19 PM
Please school me in cast lead for a 9mm factory Glock G17.

This is in conjunction with this thread here :

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=685543&p=8516411#post8516411

If it concerns ya.


Please, please, and triple please- Only post if ya do it. I need to know what shakes loose on a factory BBL, or if I need an aftermarket.

Speculation or halfwackery you "heard" about over at glocktalk isn't going to help me.

You don't have to pretend i'm new to reloading, or reloading lead- just reloading cast lead for glock 9mm from a G17.

Thanks.

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upstech76
November 16, 2012, 11:54 PM
I've done it with both 9mm and 40 but did get a far amount of leading. I was using MBC bullets over Unique for both calibers. I found that if I loaded a couple plated bullets in every mag it helped clean out the leading. Never blew anything up or hurt anything by doing it. I did decide that the slight price increase for plated rounds was worth the peace of mind and easier cleaning.

Drail
November 17, 2012, 12:18 AM
With polygonal rifling you MUST keep the lead cleaned out and you MUST not let it build up. If you do that you won't have any problems. It's only a problem for folks who don't clean or ever even look closely at the inside of their barrels. On a Glock an aftermarket barrel with cut rifling and additional case support is not a bad idea if you plan to shoot a lot of lead. I have not run tons of lead through a Glock but I have run thousands of Major power loads through a Peters-Stahl 1911 with polygonal rifling with no problems. But you have to stay on top of any lead buildup.

dragon813gt
November 17, 2012, 08:48 AM
Cast your own to the proper size. Use proper lube and you're good to go. The vast majority of leading issues are caused by undersized bullets. I will never recommend commercial cast since you have no control over them.

I cast MP 359-125, size to .358 and use 2500+ lube for my Uncle's Glock. I just finished up getting that all sorted out last month for him. They key for me was the lube. I was getting minimal leading until I switched to 2500+. It's all gone now.


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Bud0505
November 17, 2012, 09:17 AM
I loaded cast bullets for my G17 for years until I got the internet and found out I wasn't supposed to do it. I've always cleaned my guns after each trip to the range and have never had a problem. I did have aproblem with my reloads not chambering in my Ruger LC9 pocket pistol because of the "Glock Bulge" but switching from a Dillon resizing die to a Lee die cured that problem. BTW I still load lead for my G17.

Sapper771
November 19, 2012, 04:22 PM
I have done it. After quite a bit of headache, I finally found what worked for me. I use to cast my own bullets, still have the stuff, just got lazy.

I used the Lyman 120gr TC four cavity mold. Lead wheel weight alloy, air cooled. Sized to 0.358" and lubed with BAC/Carnuba Red. WSF powder. I kept the velocity down to around 1,000 - 1,050 FPS.

What you have to really watch is the bullet getting swaged by the case. This was a source of most of my problems. The cases were swaging my 0.358" bullets down to 0.355". A modified 38spl plug in a Lyman M die fixed the issue.
Leading was minimal and accuracy was good.

You also need to use a good copper remover on your bore. Lead sticks to copper and causes leading. To remove leading, I used an old bore brush wrapped with chore boy.

Reloading Cast bullets in 9mm is a PITA. Even more so for a Glock factory barrel. It can be done though.

45_auto
November 19, 2012, 08:25 PM
I've been feeding my and my son's 9mm Glocks a steady diet of lead for about 15 years. Currently feeding 2 G17's, a G17L, a G19, and a G26, shooting 4 different classes in GSSF matches and local competitions. Just finished off a box of 1000 Dardas 147g this afternoon, they work awesome on the plate rack. Never seen any difference between my Glocks and any other guns.

Biggest problem I've seen is people using a Lee 9mm Factory Crimp Die to crimp lead bullets. They'll squeeze the lead down undersize and lead any bore up quickly for you.

blarby
November 19, 2012, 09:06 PM
Good to know...

beeenbag
November 19, 2012, 09:53 PM
I done it in a glock 19. Once I found a load that didn't lead too bad, it was horrible accuracy wise. I recovered some of the bullets that were fired from the glock barrel and you could just barely see the rifling marks on them. I don't think they are a good match.

I went with a lonewolf barrel and couldn't be happier. It is $109 piece of mind.

coalman
November 20, 2012, 02:43 PM
A $100 LWD barrel makes all concerns go away. It's cheap and saves time cleaning. I've run >10k LRN through Glocks this way. No worries, less work, less hassle. No-brainer IMO.

solvability
November 20, 2012, 02:47 PM
I shoot cast lead in my Glock 9mm/40 and 45 - the biggest thing I learned was to use the right powder and keep the bullet below 900 fps - for 9mm I recommend 147g.

Powder use W231/HP38 or Solo 1000 for best results and flexibility.

I shoot quite a good bit in IDPA and USPSA so my round count is high - I do clean every 300 or 400 rounds but I have never seen heavy leading & usually just light traces forward of the chamber.

budman46
November 20, 2012, 02:53 PM
i shot a lot of cast 9mms in my glock 30+ yrs ago until one day it blew. what i figured was the bullet "telescoped" into the case during feeding raising pressures to the failure point of the brass. a stinging hand, part of the trigger missing, but the gun still worked (i don't know why i tried it). glock replaced the frame for $65 (dealer's price) and i sold it.

the much increased pressure due to the collapsed bullet, with the unsupported case head of glocks was the reason it blew...a word to the wise.

ljnowell
November 20, 2012, 04:09 PM
i shot a lot of cast 9mms in my glock 30+ yrs ago until one day it blew. what i figured was the bullet "telescoped" into the case during feeding raising pressures to the failure point of the brass. a stinging hand, part of the trigger missing, but the gun still worked (i don't know why i tried it). glock replaced the frame for $65 (dealer's price) and i sold it.

the much increased pressure due to the collapsed bullet, with the unsupported case head of glocks was the reason it blew...a word to the wise.

Thats a neck tension issue, it has nothing to do sith lead.

budman46
November 20, 2012, 04:54 PM
ljnowell,
i agree. the same thing wouldn't have been a probelm with a jacketed bullet due to the increased friction afforded by a brass-on-copper rather than a brass-on-lead situation.

ljnowell
November 20, 2012, 09:05 PM
ljnowell,
i agree. the same thing wouldn't have been a probelm with a jacketed bullet due to the increased friction afforded by a brass-on-copper rather than a brass-on-lead situation.


I disagree with that. If anything you would have had better case neck tension because the lead bullets are .001" bigger. The problem had nothing to do with lead bullets.

mtrmn
November 20, 2012, 10:04 PM
I use Widener's hard cast bullets in 3 first-gen Glock 9mms with no problems.

coalman
November 20, 2012, 11:00 PM
If anything you would have had better case neck tension because the lead bullets are .001" bigger. The problem had nothing to do with lead bullets.

That's not the case in practice. The softer lead will likely size down much easier than FMJ, reducing neck tension, especially since the 9mm is a tapered case.

eldon519
November 21, 2012, 02:25 PM
I didn't think the 9mm Glocks had issues with chamber support.

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/9mm_glock_barrel_support.htm

I'm mainly interested because I'm thinking about getting a G19 and like to shoot lead.

ljnowell
November 21, 2012, 04:04 PM
That's not the case in practice. The softer lead will likely size down much easier than FMJ, reducing neck tension, especially since the 9mm is a tapered case.

It has been in all of my practice. There should be NO sizing down of lead in the reloading process, period. That is what would give poor neck tension and that would be a reloaders error. If you load 10 rounds at .356" and then pull those 10 rounds the bullets should still be .356". If they arent then you made a mistake somewhere.

blarby
November 21, 2012, 07:17 PM
There should be NO sizing down of lead in the reloading process, period

Here , here !

Kinda defeats the point of sizing it to start with, dont it ?

JohnKSa
November 21, 2012, 07:38 PM
...what i figured was the bullet "telescoped" into the case during feeding raising pressures to the failure point of the brass.You figured that why? I'm guessing it was because that's an explanation that doesn't require acknowledging that Glock polygonal rifling and lead bullets can create high pressure events sufficient to cause spontaneous disassembly.

Anyone who is actually interested in facts and isn't predisposed to dismiss information that might cause them to change their opinions will find it useful to read "The Glock in Competition", particularly the chapter written by Mark Passamaneck. Mr. Passamaneck (click for resume (http://entropyec.com/assets/passamaneck_resume.pdf)) is a forensic mechanical engineer who did an extensive study on lead bullets in Glock barrels using state of the art pressure measuring equipment.

For what it's worth, his investigation was triggered by "shooting a lot of cast bullets in his glock until one day it blew". Sounds kind of familiar, doesn't it?

GLOOB
November 21, 2012, 07:46 PM
I would say I shoot only lead out of my G19, but that would be a lie. I shoot about 85% cast bullets and 15% Berry's plated.

I've not yet found a cast load that doesn't lead up my G19. I think the loose chamber and generous freebore work against it. It would take a severely oversize bullet to close up those gaps.

So the 85% cast is because I load a couple plated bullets in each mag. I am essentially cleaning out the barrel every 7th or 8th shot.

So does this really clean out a barrel? Yes and no. It does not clean all the lead fouling out of a standard land and groove barrel. It does clean out a Glock barrel, clean as a damn whistle, if you've previously removed all the copper fouling and started with a clean barrel. So instead of:
"shooting a lot of cast bullets in his glock until one day it blew", I shoot only 6-7 cast bullets through it, then shoot a plated bullet and hope it doesn't blow. :)

I regularly clean my standard rifled FN and my revolvers. I regularly inspect my G19, and it just keeps going and going without needing any cleaning.

My G21 eats 100% lead, typically. And it shoots cleaner than all my other handguns, including standard grooved pistols and revolvers. It's quite the opposite of my G19. So for different reasons, both my Glocks with stock barrels shoot lead with less effort than all my other handguns.

I'll put in an extra 2 cents on shooting cast in semiauto rifles. I've seen where a guy "busted" the myth that shooting cast bullets will lead up your gas port on an AR-15. Well, that might be true, but they sure do lead up the gas port on an MSAR. Esp bad if you shoot some jacketed after shooting lead. The jacketed bullet pushes the hidden lead bits out of the grooves and through the gas port. When the thing finally jams solid, you need some tools to pry the gas plug out, and some hoppes to loosen the plunger. That still doesn't stop me, though. I just clean regularly and avoid mixing jacketed and cast. I'm getting superb accuracy with cast out of both my rifles. Course, that's by my own standards, which have yet to include a bench.

JohnKSa
November 21, 2012, 08:04 PM
I haven't seen any data on "cleaning" a leaded barrel by shooting plated bullets through it, but I have seen a couple of authorities (including Allan Jones, of Speer) comment on using jacketed bullets for the task. For what it's worth, the consensus was that it increases the potential for a catastrophic incident. Jones noted that he had seen a number of guns damaged by the practice.It's quite the opposite of my G19.This is a big part of the problem.

Passamaneck noted that he tried the same lead bullet load in two apparently identical Glocks and found that one, after having fired only 75 rounds, exhibited twice the effects of pressure increase as the other pistol did after having fired 300 rounds. That's double the effect from 4 times fewer rounds.

In other words, it's not that it's certain to cause problems, it's that it's not possible to provide an accurate rule for how to avoid problems.

GLOOB
November 21, 2012, 08:26 PM
I haven't seen any data on "cleaning" a leaded barrel by shooting plated bullets through it, but I have seen a couple of authorities (including Allan Jones, of Speer) comment on using jacketed bullets for the task. For what it's worth, the consensus was that it increases the potential for a catastrophic incident. Jones noted that he had seen a number of guns damaged by the practice.
Thanks. I should have added that this is potentially dangerous and not a universal solution.

1. I would NEVER shoot a jacketed bullet out of a rifle if there was visible lead fouling in the barrel. I always inspect the barrel, first.
2. I would not do this so carelessly in my Glock if it weren't for the fact that in my particular instance this one plated bullet does, in fact, remove practically all traces of lead from the barrel. So I am literally cleaning out the barrel after every 6-7 shots and starting fresh. I do not jive with the practice of shooting lead all day, then finishing up with a couple mags of jacketed ammo fired through several hundred rounds worth of fouling.
3. In the end, even these measures are not a guarantee of safety.

breacher
November 21, 2012, 11:28 PM
Gloob - exact same thing here with my Glock 35 barrel in 40 cal. I throw a couple plated rds into every mag and it stays nice & clean. I know it leads when shooting cast only because I spent a few range trips experimenting with various lead bullet weights and various powders. I'd start seeing a good bit after a few mags. I had heard about the FMJ and plated "cleanout" and found it works great.

I have an aftermarket barrel in 40 for my Glock 32 and it leads also and it is much harder to clean. The real downside is the tight chamber. I have to chamber check every reloaded rd in it or risk malfunctions due to the dreaded Glock bulge. I have about a 20% rejection rate with that barrel. But my factory G35 barrel will eat everything. That's why I don't wanna go aftermarket again with another barrel.

I don't load any 40 ammo past mid-range, mostly real light plinking loads. Not at all worried about kabooms.

coalman
November 22, 2012, 12:05 AM
There should be NO sizing down of lead in the reloading process, period.
"Should" being the operative word IMO. I used mixed brass and the cheapest LRN I could find (because cost savings is the whole point even to hassle with LRN in 9mm for me). Seat lead bullets in mixed brass, and seat FMJ (not plated) bullets in mixed brass, then pull both and check size. Unless I belled cases more than I prefer, I've found seating the 9mm LRN in the case will size away that .001" difference much of the time, assuming the bullet was .356" to start with since I don't check every bullet. I never had issues with neck tension regardless though.

p.s. keep in mind my reply was specifically regarding that the extra LRN .001" provided "better" neck tension.

Steve A
November 22, 2012, 05:45 AM
Here is a good lead bullet for 9mm or .38 Super:

It is a 130 Grain LSWC - IPSC section - then look in the .38/.357 portion.

http://www.bulletworks.com/

ljnowell
November 23, 2012, 03:33 AM
"Should" being the operative word IMO. I used mixed brass and the cheapest LRN I could find (because cost savings is the whole point even to hassle with LRN in 9mm for me). Seat lead bullets in mixed brass, and seat FMJ (not plated) bullets in mixed brass, then pull both and check size. Unless I belled cases more than I prefer, I've found seating the 9mm LRN in the case will size away that .001" difference much of the time, assuming the bullet was .356" to start with since I don't check every bullet. I never had issues with neck tension regardless though.


I dont sort my brass so I use mixed brass in 45acp, 9mm, and 38/357. I do sort for 45 colt. Never had a problem with it. Brass isnt hard enough to cause that. Brass will expand before bullet shrinks. Brass has a different spring back though thats the reason when people swage down a bullet with a lee factory crimp die you lose neck tension. The brass will spring back a little and the bullet wont. Thats a super hard carbide ring and when it resizes lead it makes a solid contact you have to push through. Brass isnt sizing down the lead unless you are shaving a bunch of it off.

There has to be an issue somewhere else.

Dont take it as though I am trying to be argumentative or critical, I just want to make sure that there isnt another problem you are battling. I have done it before myself, trust me.

bds
November 25, 2012, 03:31 PM
cast lead for a 9mm factory Glock G17.
IMHO, shooting lead loads in factory Glock barrels can be done with some considerations. Glock barrels differ from typical barrels (that have square cut land/groove rifling) by having rounded rifling with longer leade/freebore and very smooth start of rifling - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=8464678#post8464678

Below is an example of a square cut land/groove rifled barrel with rifling that tends to dig/cut into the lead bullet surface
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=155268&stc=1&d=1324653483

In comparison, Glock barrels have very smooth rounded rifling with gradual/smooth start of rifling that may not allow the bullet surface to grip the rifling as well
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=163255&stc=1&d=1335152658

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=173594&stc=1&d=1350610005
These aspects of Glock barrels may allow the lead bullet to slide deeper into the rifling before the chamber pressure starts to build during which time more high pressure gas leaks around the bullet, more liquefied lube is blown off the bullet surface and gas cutting/bullet base erosion increases.

IME, these will result in more flaky/crusty fouling deposit along the rifling. Below is a Glock barrel after 100 rounds of lead loads and you can see the flaky/crusty fouling deposit especially along the rifling.
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=151380&stc=1&d=1319341855

In comparison, below is a Lone Wolf barrel after several hundred rounds of the same lead load. As you can see, there is no flaky/crusty fouling deposit, just residual lube smearing.
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=162418&stc=1&d=1333939386

IME, the flaky/crusty fouling deposit on Glock barrels don't initially affect accuracy until around 100-200 round count. More importantly, if the fouling deposit is allowed to continue, you may essentially end up with a smooth bore barrel with a reduced groove diameter which will probably increase the chamber pressures.

For these reasons, I usually recommend inspection of the Glock barrels after 200-300 lead rounds and clean as necessary to ensure accuracy is maintained and fouling build up is removed - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=8465230#post8465230

JohnKSa
November 25, 2012, 04:55 PM
I usually recommend inspection of the Glock barrels after 200-300 lead rounds...I think it would be wise to be even more conservative than that given the results of Mark Passamaneck's investigation/measurements.

As I mentioned earlier, he noted that he tried the same lead bullet load in two apparently identical Glocks and found that one, after having fired only 75 rounds, exhibited twice the effects of pressure increase as the other pistol did after having fired 300 rounds.

So while your experience, with your Glocks may indicate that inspecting after 300 rounds is sufficient to insure safety, Passamaneck's observations note that another, apparently identical gun, might actually show double the effects after only 75 rounds that your Glock shows after 300 shots fired.

Assuming the process continues in a linear fashion, after 300 rounds, such a gun could be showing 8 times the effect of pressure increase as your gun.

blarby
November 25, 2012, 08:30 PM
So, BDS- you think a shorter or longer bullet, or a profile difference, would help in a factory BBL ?

For all of the testing thats been done, you think I could find a reference to the exact bullets being used....... but I can't.

We have this ability to you know, carefully craft the bullet design to suit the purpose at hand :D

bds
November 25, 2012, 10:30 PM
blarby, I did preface my post with this :)
shooting lead loads in factory Glock barrels can be done with some considerations


As JohnKSa posted, there are variables to consider. I do not know what Mark Passamaneck's lead loads were but my loads were Missouri 18 BHN 125 gr RN using high-to-max range W231/HP-38 lead load data referencing 1999 Winchester load data (http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=159609&stc=1&d=1329800605) (124 gr LRN W231 Start 3.3 gr (910 fps) 23,800 PSI - Max 4.0 gr (1035 fps) 32,900 PSI) and 4.0 gr Promo load using Red Dot load data (as indicated by Alliant (http://www.alliantpowder.com/products/powder/promo.aspx)) referencing 2004 Alliant load data (glarp.atk.com/2004/2004Catalogs/2004AlliantPowderSM.pdf).

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=173742&stc=1&d=1350888604

Previously I have used 22-24 BHN stepped 124/125 gr RN bullets (nose profiles like the Dardas/ZCast RN above) with high-to-max load data W231/HP-38 and got mixed results that included increased leading/fouling build up and decreased accuracy (BTW, ZCast advertises 14-16 BHN (http://www.zcastbulletz.com/about.html) and Dardas offers both RN profiles in 16 BHN (http://www.dardascastbullets.com/)).


... shorter or longer bullet, or a profile difference, would help in a factory BBL?
IMO, bullet profile that allows for longer bearing surface (nose profile like Missouri RN/CN or SWC) and subsequently gets seated deeper in the case neck than stepped RN bullet profile may build more consistent chamber pressures faster to address Glock barrels' rifling. Also, a softer lead alloy (say 16-18 BHN) will deform faster to obturate the barrel to reduce high pressure gas leakage/gas cutting/bullet base erosion etc.

What I have noticed while shooting Missouri 18 BHN 125 gr RN lead loads in factory Glock barrels in comparison to 22-24 BHN 124/125 gr RN lead loads is that the softer 18 BHN bullet loads produced less leading and fouling build up that maintained accuracy longer. Perhaps this was due to better obturation from softer lead alloy that sealed the high pressure gas sooner to reduce gas cutting/leading/blowing liquefied lube etc.

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