setting up for 357 and 38special


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tt5
November 17, 2012, 01:03 PM
I picked up a 686 yesterday. :) .
Guns Galore in Fenton, MI beat the big online shops prices, without the wait for shipping.

I expect that most of what I load will be magnum cases with wadcutters and light powder loads, but I want the flexibility of running 38 spl cases too. So far I've been loading 9mm luger, so this is a bit of a departure.

I use a Lee Turret press and I figure I'll get a Lee 4 die 38sp/357 set and a new turret disk.

Which dies do I need to elevate with 0.135" spacers so that i can flex between 357 and 38spl? Clearly the seating and crimp dies need to be elevated, but do the size/deprime and flare/powder dies need it? Can I expect a lot of extra variability in with spacers?

How picky do I need to be about case length with that roll-crimp? Trim them the first time? Do 357 cases grow?

Anyone want to suggest your favorite lead wadcutter or semiwadcutter for a 6" 686?

Any other advice for a newb?

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Walkalong
November 17, 2012, 01:24 PM
You have it, the sizer is set the same and the spacer is needed for the expander, seater, and if you crimp in a second step, the crimp die as well.

.38 Spl cases can vary a great deal on length, so I like to trim mine. If you have a bunch of cases all pretty uniform, it is not so critical, and some people never trim .38 cases regardless of the variances.

The more uniform the case length, the more uniform the crimp. It is up to you how picky you wish to be. Here is a thread with many crimp pics.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=469815&page=2

Boxerrider
November 17, 2012, 02:10 PM
I trim revolver cases before I load them the first time. I get a nice consistent crimp that way. I keep batches of brass together and they seem to stay consistent through multiple loadings.

Enjoy!
Jeff

Lost Sheep
November 17, 2012, 02:15 PM
If you don't actually own a 38 Special-chambered gun, I recommend doing what I do. Aside from one 50-round box of 38 Special brass I bought in 1975 and used until it wore out, I have never owned a single piece of 38 Special. (Well, I don't count those few pieces I occasionally find at the shooting range which I give to a friend .)

Since 1976 none of my guns (357 Magnum or 44 Magnum) have ever chambered a Special cartridge. It makes logistics easier to manage, eliminates the need to adjust dies at all. Downloading Magnum brass to Special velocities is not difficult or dangerous.

That's what I do. Before you get invested in 38 brass, I recommend you consider it.

Congratulations on your new revolver. Thanks for asking our advice.

Lost Sheep

JoeDaddy
November 17, 2012, 02:53 PM
Solid advice from Lost Sheep. Save yourself the hassles and stick with 357 mag cases. You also won't get the carbon build up that the shorter 38 cases can leave in your cylinders.

627PCFan
November 17, 2012, 03:03 PM
Lost sheep nailed it.

beatledog7
November 17, 2012, 04:03 PM
^^ Except that .38SPL brass is so much more readily available and cheaper than .357 brass. That factor is why I started loading .38SPL cases with the .357 in mind. They cycle and shoot fine, and I can get an extra into the tube of my Marlin.

This price factor doesn't seem to hold for .44Mag and .44SPL, as they are about the same in terms of availability and price. YMMV.

tt5
November 17, 2012, 04:19 PM
Thanks all.

My shopping list is growing. Doesn't it always?

Lee Turret disk
Lee die set
Hornady lock rings
0.135 Redding die spacers
Lee 357 trimmer shell holder and pin
Maybe the Redding profile crimp die if I'm not happy with the FCD
Brass
Bullets


I think the crimp will take a lot of experimenting, but I'll start with consistent case length.

Sheep, Joedad, 627pc- I plan to load everything in magnum cases for all the reasons you mentioned. I'll put the spacers on and probably never load a 38 special.
But there's a guy at work who's offered me a bag of 38 special brass, and I have the 50 from yesterday, and... Sticking to the plan may be difficult.

I think I'll go down to the basement and feed the monster by loading a few boxes of 9mm.

Direwolf
November 17, 2012, 05:35 PM
If you don't actually own a 38 Special-chambered gun, I recommend doing what I do. Aside from one 50-round box of 38 Special brass I bought in 1975 and used until it wore out, I have never owned a single piece of 38 Special. (Well, I don't count those few pieces I occasionally find at the shooting range which I give to a friend .)

Since 1976 none of my guns (357 Magnum or 44 Magnum) have ever chambered a Special cartridge. It makes logistics easier to manage, eliminates the need to adjust dies at all. Downloading Magnum brass to Special velocities is not difficult or dangerous.

That's what I do. Before you get invested in 38 brass, I recommend you consider it.

Congratulations on your new revolver. Thanks for asking our advice.

Lost Sheep
I agree. I only wish I had thought of that before I bought 1000 pcs of 38spl brass! I've had them for years and haven't ever loaded them. I did clean them and deprime them but that's as far as I got before I decided to just go with 357 brass.

cfullgraf
November 17, 2012, 06:01 PM
^^ Except that .38SPL brass is so much more readily available and cheaper than .357 brass.

With 38 Special level loads, the 357 magnum cases will darn near last forever. Original cost of the case is insignificant over its life.

zxcvbob
November 17, 2012, 06:10 PM
Which dies do I need to elevate with 0.135" spacers so that i can flex between 357 and 38spl? Clearly the seating and crimp dies need to be elevated, but do the size/deprime and flare/powder dies need it? Can I expect a lot of extra variability in with spacers?


The seating-crimp die is the only one. The sizing die stays the same, and the expanding die is easy to set and not critical. But if you make a "pattern" cartridge you can set your dies up in a matter of seconds without a spacer.

Lost Sheep
November 17, 2012, 08:15 PM
Thanks all.

My shopping list is growing. Doesn't it always?

Lee Turret disk
Lee die set
Hornady lock rings
0.135 Redding die spacers
Lee 357 trimmer shell holder and pin
Maybe the Redding profile crimp die if I'm not happy with the FCD
Brass
Bullets


I think the crimp will take a lot of experimenting, but I'll start with consistent case length.

Sheep, Joedad, 627pc- I plan to load everything in magnum cases for all the reasons you mentioned. I'll put the spacers on and probably never load a 38 special.
But there's a guy at work who's offered me a bag of 38 special brass, and I have the 50 from yesterday, and... Sticking to the plan may be difficult.

I think I'll go down to the basement and feed the monster by loading a few boxes of 9mm.
If you are not going to use 38 Special, you don't need the spacer.

You don't have to buy the Hornady lock rings unless you find you are not happy with the Lee lock rings. The Lee rings have been working fine for me.

Whether you crimp with the Lee FCD 1) as is or 2) modified (by removing the post-sizing ring which can SOMETIMES reduce neck tension, particularly with oversized lead bullets) or 3) a spare seat-crimp die with the seating stem removed or 4) the Redding profile crimp die or 5) some other crimp die is up to you. Just don't spend too much money before you determine your needs.

Check out the kit from Kempf's gun shop. It includes dies and omits the scale (allowing you to pick one easier to use than Lee Precision's accurate but finicky scale).

Brass and bullets are usually left off the list as they are a given. But if you do put those on your list, the other consumables, powder and primers should be included, yes?

Good luck.

Lost Sheep

TrueTexan
November 17, 2012, 08:53 PM
If you don't actually own a 38 Special-chambered gun, I recommend doing what I do. Aside from one 50-round box of 38 Special brass I bought in 1975 and used until it wore out, I have never owned a single piece of 38 Special. (Well, I don't count those few pieces I occasionally find at the shooting range which I give to a friend .)

Since 1976 none of my guns (357 Magnum or 44 Magnum) have ever chambered a Special cartridge. It makes logistics easier to manage, eliminates the need to adjust dies at all. Downloading Magnum brass to Special velocities is not difficult or dangerous.

That's what I do. Before you get invested in 38 brass, I recommend you consider it.

Congratulations on your new revolver. Thanks for asking our advice.

Lost Sheep
I agree. I just switched to using only 357 mag brass saves me time and trouble also makes cleaning the cylinder easier, no carbon buildup from the 38 spl.

tt5
November 17, 2012, 10:01 PM
Lost Sheep,
I should have been clearer above. I'm already reloading 9mm on a Lee Turret. My shopping list is the stuff I need or am considering to add 357/38 loading capability to the equipment I already have.


If you are not going to use 38 Special, you don't need the spacer.

You don't have to buy the Hornady lock rings unless you find you are not happy with the Lee lock rings. The Lee rings have been working fine for me.
Good points there. The Lee rings are working fine for me with my 9mm setup, but that's dialed in and I don't fiddle with it except for the seating die when I change bullets. If I decide to drop the option to load 38spl, I'll skip the spacers and locking rings. That's $20 I probably don't need to spend.


Whether you crimp with the Lee FCD 1) as is or 2) modified (by removing the post-sizing ring which can SOMETIMES reduce neck tension, particularly with oversized lead bullets) or 3) a spare seat-crimp die with the seating stem removed or 4) the Redding profile crimp die or 5) some other crimp die is up to you. Just don't spend too much money before you determine your needs.
This afternoon I read the crimp thread that Walkalong linked in post 2. That got me all tangled up in the world of taper and roll crimps. I'll use the FCD for a while. If I'm not happy with that, I can start to experiment with other dies.


Check out the kit from Kempf's gun shop. It includes dies and omits the scale (allowing you to pick one easier to use than Lee Precision's accurate but finicky scale).

I got my set from Kempf last year. This time I just need dies and the 4 hole disk that holds them.


Brass and bullets are usually left off the list as they are a given. But if you do put those on your list, the other consumables, powder and primers should be included, yes?

I'm using W231 now and CCI-500 primers for 9mm. The W231 should work fine for the light, slow loads I'm planning. I accidentally bought a box of CCI-550's a couple of months ago, so that's covered.

Maj Dad
November 18, 2012, 03:51 PM
Since I own 38s & 357s, I have both sizes of brass. Once in a blue moon I get one of the wrong size in the reloading queue, but I try to pay attention to what I'm doing and double check all the way (I know, an unproven concept ;)) As far as the 38s causing problems in 357 cylinders, I use another unproven tactic: cleaning them, and using a Lewis Lead Remover if need be. That little gem works wonders and I use it probably more than required, but it's easy and effective. I don't take issue or find fault with anyone who confines their brass to one size, just point out that it doesn't have to be a major pain provided you are a little OC... like me... :p

zxcvbob
November 18, 2012, 04:14 PM
This afternoon I read the crimp thread that Walkalong linked in post 2. That got me all tangled up in the world of taper and roll crimps. I'll use the FCD for a while. If I'm not happy with that, I can start to experiment with other dies.


Since you said in post #1 you'll be shooting lead bullets, I strongly recommend crimping with the seating die and save the Factory Crimp Die for later *if* you need it. The bullets will have a crimp groove that you'll crimp into, so there's no downside to crimping and seating in the same operation. It just takes a little practice setting up the die.

Lost Sheep
November 18, 2012, 04:54 PM
This afternoon I read the crimp thread that Walkalong linked in post 2. That got me all tangled up in the world of taper and roll crimps. I'll use the FCD for a while. If I'm not happy with that, I can start to experiment with other dies.
No confusion is warranted. It's just a matter of chamber fit.

Taper crimps are necessary for cartridges that headspace on the case mouth. A roll crimp may cause malfunction.

Usually autoloading pistols.

For cases that headspace on the rim (or extractor groove, as in moonclipped cases) roll crimp is standard. But there is no reason a taper crimp could not be used.

Usually revolvers.

Lee's FCD (Factory Crimp Die) for typically revolver chamberings is a roll crimp and for typically autoloader chamberings is a taper crimp.

I got my set from Kempf last year. This time I just need dies and the 4 hole disk that holds them.

I forgot you mentioned that you already reload.

Lost Sheep

tt5
November 18, 2012, 05:53 PM
again, lots of good points.

Maj Dad- sticking to one case will help avoid mixing similar cases, but it will also eliminates another stack of plastic tubs of cases of various ages and stages of processing. That's the theory anyway.

Zxcvbob, Lost Sheep- Have I got this right?

If I go with a 3 die set with the roll crimp in the seating die, I'd be covered for bullets with a crimping cannelure.
Then if I later use a jacketed or plated bullet with no groove, I can back out the seating die so it doesn't crimp, then add a taper crimp die in the 4th position.


If I'd just go buy the silly thing and try it out instead of obsessing at the keyboard, it'd probably become clear very fast.

Walkalong
November 18, 2012, 05:56 PM
If I go with a 3 die set with the roll crimp in the seating die, I'd be covered for bullets with a crimping cannelure.
Then if I later use a jacketed or plated bullet with no groove, I can back out the seating die so it doesn't crimp, then add a taper crimp die in the 4th position.
Exactly right. I'll add you can always back out the seating die and roll crimp in a fourth step if you wish as well.

zxcvbob
November 18, 2012, 07:20 PM
The seating dies in the 3-die set and the 4-die set are exactly the same. Both will do a roll crimp if you adjust them to do it.

I recommend getting the 4 die set and not using the 4th die. It costs what, $7 more? Then if you ever need the FCD, you'll have it.

dragon813gt
November 18, 2012, 07:55 PM
If you're loading lead bullets I strongly recommend purchasing a Lyman M Die for case expanding. It actually expands the case instead of just belling the mouth. The plugs in them are actually for jacketed. But it's been working fine with seating .359 bullets without swaging them down.

There is room on the turret for one. Size/deprime - Powder through die backed out to just drop powder - Lyman M Die - Seat/Crimp die. I have had zero issues seating and crimping in one step.

I'd also get a case trimmer if you don't have one. Uniform case length makes seating/crimping an easy process.


Brought to you by TapaTalk.

Maj Dad
November 18, 2012, 07:58 PM
I keep brass for magnum loads segregated for the first 2-3 firings, and then they go in the plinking bucket. Same for all my pistol brass - if I were still shooting centerfire pistol matches I might keep them separated a little longer, but not much. If you are not shooting matches or the like, it''s unnecessary, but I have friends who keep detailed records on every piece of brass they use (mostly OCD rifle shooters ;)). Whatever suits your intention. I could probably retire to the Riviera if I sold all the brass in those cat litter tubs and 5 gal buckets... :p

tt5
November 18, 2012, 08:32 PM
If the seating die in the 4 die set is the same as the one in the 3 die set, I'll get the 4.

I'll remember the M die option in case I'm unhappy with the results of the Lee expander. The Lee has worked fine for me with 3 varieties of Berry's plated 9mm, but un-plated lead will be a new experience.

Thanks all.

dragon813gt
November 18, 2012, 09:03 PM
Have a micrometer handy. Measure the bullets before seating. Then seat without crimping. Pull bullet and measure again. Hopefully they come out the same. I had no luck with various calibers and the Lee mouth flaring die. It really is named incorrectly.


Brought to you by TapaTalk.

tt5
November 20, 2012, 11:13 AM
I made the rounds of the shops yesterday and picked up a set of dies and some wadcutters. Now I'm adjusting the dies. I'm trying to use the crimp in the seating die instead of using the Lee FCD.

The 3 cartridges shown shown were crimped with the seating die rotated 1/4, 3/8, 1/2 turn from where I put a marking on the die. No significance to the location of the mark.

.25 is just showing a little shine on the corner of the case
.375 is rolled in a bit
.5 has a pretty healthy crimp.

Do I want the .375? .5? somewhere in between?
Or shoot 'em and see if they move?

The seating of the bullet still needs a little adjustment. Looks pretty close on the .50 sample.

Thanks.

http://sbcglobalpwp.att.net/t/t/ttaylor5/121120_357_crimpcheck.jpg

ku4hx
November 20, 2012, 11:24 AM
I bought my 357 Magnum dies circa 1969 (Bucky's in Idaho Falls, ID) and they were listed as for both 357 and 38 Special. It never occurred to me I needed to do anything other than screw the expander stem down a mite farther. That still works to this day.

And since I don't crimp 38 Specials, the seater die just needed to have its stem screwed down a bit more too.

The same was the case for my original set of 10mm dies as they were marketed for 40 S&W as well. Now days I notice the die makers sell separate sets for 40 cal and 10mm. Always wondered about that, but I sure am glad I got the multipurpose sets when I did.

ATLDave
November 20, 2012, 12:13 PM
The same was the case for my original set of 10mm dies as they were marketed for 40 S&W as well. Now days I notice the die makers sell separate sets for 40 cal and 10mm. Always wondered about that, but I sure am glad I got the multipurpose sets when I did.

Well, Lee will still sell you a .40/10mm set. Or at least they sold me, through a dealer, such a set earlier this year. And a .38/357 set, too.

zxcvbob
November 20, 2012, 12:14 PM
Do I want the .375? .5? somewhere in between?
Or shoot 'em and see if they move?

The seating of the bullet still needs a little adjustment. Looks pretty close on the .50 sample.


Here's how I set the crimp on just about every pistol cartridge I load: Put a resized case in the shellholder and run it up all the way. Screw the seating/crimp die down until it is just snug against the mouth of the case, and lock it down. That's it. You can tighten just a little more if you need to, but try this setting first.

ku4hx
November 20, 2012, 12:28 PM
Leave it Lee to be practical. I haven't bought any dies in several years but it's nice know you can still get the "combo" ones. Which is as it should be. I have noticed other makers selling them as separate sets.

For years the same single stage shell holder and Dillon RL550B shell plate was sold for 45 ACP and 30-06. I wonder if that's still the case.

mdi
November 20, 2012, 01:08 PM
Well, I've been shooting .38 Specials off and on in my .357 Mag. for over 20 years. To get a carbon/gunk build up in the cylinder you will have to shoot 200-300 dirty rounds (lead bullets, low charges of Unique), in my experience. But, my guns get cleaned every time I shoot them. A lot of answers about shooting/reloading are a bit overstated, which make them sound like the worse case senerio will happen (in this case the "dreaded carbon ring") immediately upon firing. Shoot a box of .38s in your .357 and you may notice some residue in the cylinders, maybe not. Use common sense. I don't know of one .357 Magnum manufacturer that suggests limiting the use of ammo to .357 only. If you want a smaller inventory of components, or worried about dirty cylinders, don't buy Special brass, but don't limit yourself for something that might happen, and rob yourself of a lot of reloading/shooting fun...

P.S.; ferget the FCD. Adjust your dies properly, no buldges, get a good roll crimp die and seat and crimp in 2 steps.

zxcvbob
November 20, 2012, 01:53 PM
P.S.; ferget the FCD. Adjust your dies properly, no buldges, get a good roll crimp die and seat and crimp in 2 steps.


There's certainly nothing wrong with seating and crimping in separate steps, but with cast bullets there's no advantage either. I will concede that the bullet is still moving while the case mouth is being crimped, but it makes no difference because the case mouth is not touching the bullet at this point it is over the crimp groove.

Reefinmike
November 20, 2012, 06:26 PM
i'll throw my two cents in as ive been loading 38/357 for just about a year now, using the same setup you have.

I personally run a ton of 38 through my 357 and switching back and forth to magnum isn't a big deal at all. I usually back out the expander/powder charging die two full turns, run a case through and slightly adjust until I get minimal flare that will still bring the autodisk all the way forwards to drop the powder. then I take the empty case to the seating die, back the die out two turns , then back in until it firmly touches the case mouth and give it another 1/8 turn after that for a slight crimp. then I back out the seater a good bit as im going to use different bullets. When I go to load the first 357, i will have to do some minor depth adjustments being careful to not fully pull down on the lever to crimp it. once im near my desired oal, ill crimp it, make sure its where i want it and set it aside for a plinking round as i'll usually have to set it in a few more thousandths. seems like a lot, but it takes all of 3 minutes to adjust.

I load about 800 38's a month and prefer them because A- they're everywhere for grabs at my range, B- they are not nearly as difficult to run through the sizing/decapping die as magnum cases are.

I usually wait til i have 800 casings tumbled, primed and ready to roll before i do a run on the press. my method on the lee turret is quick enough that i can load the 800 in under two hours at a faily leasurely rate. I fill the hopper with hp-38(or win231) powder with the .32 disk such that it throws a 3.35gr charge. put a case in the shell holder, charge the case as i grab a bullet with my left hand, bring the case all the way down so its seated snugly and place the bullet. with my right hand still on the lever, i rotate the turret with it to the seating die, seat the bullet as i grab a new case. use the empty case to push the loaded one in my hand and place the empty in the shell holder, put the loaded round in a tray as i turn the turret with my right hand and repeat the process. once you get it down, you can load a box in 5 minutes flat. And no, this is not wrecklessly fast, im still watching the powder being dropped, reassuring there arent double charges etc etc.

clelaj
November 20, 2012, 06:37 PM
Another thought: Using 38 spl case for light load and 357 for heavy load is an easier way to know what is going in and what to expect when squeezing the trigger.

Lost Sheep
November 21, 2012, 12:00 AM
Another thought: Using 38 spl case for light load and 357 for heavy load is an easier way to know what is going in and what to expect when squeezing the trigger.
You don't label your boxes/bags of ammunition with the load data?

Not that there's anything (necessarily) wrong with that, especially if you only have one power level in each type of brass you load, but I think most of us write down the load details either on the box or on a slip of paper that goes into the box (or bag) of cartridges.

No offense meant, I just wanted to suggest the practice to anyone reading the thread.

Lost Sheep

Reefinmike
November 21, 2012, 01:08 AM
I use colored garage sale stickers to mark each "lot" of ammo I produce to keep tabs on things. its a bit overwhelming to have thousands of 38's of unquestionable origin. I date the colored stickers and keep a paper in each 50 cal can stating powder charge, primer, whether i sized them or not(have one batch 500 or so unsized running in at .3595-.360" dia :/), the ratio of clip on wheel weights to stick on(pure lead) in the batch of cast boolits etc etc.

recent batches i simply just date as ive solved some minor leading problems. now I run a tulammo sp primer, 3.3gr HP-38, Quenched lee 158(160 actually)gr TlSWC boolits using 80% clip on ww's, 20% stick on ww. tumble lubed using 1/2 drop diluted alox(70% alox, 30% mineral spirits) per bullet, sized to .358 and then relubed 1/2 drop per bullet. took a while, but now I have the perfect load for my 6" taurus 66- dont hate.

ArchAngelCD
November 21, 2012, 01:20 AM
tt5,
I hope I can remember all the points I want to hit after reading all the posts. First, I think you are making this harder than it is in your mind. If you can load good 9mm ammo there's no reason you can't load good 38/357 ammo. IMO 38/357 ammo is easier than the 9mm to load.

Forget about the CCI550 primers, no need to use a magnum primer just because you are using .357 Magnum brass. The use of a magnum primers is determined by the powder you are using, not the name of the cartridge. You only need a magnum primer for hard to ignite ball powders like HS-6, HS-7 and W296/H110. I use W231 and CCI500 primers for most of my .38 Special ammo. Remember, just because you're using a .357 Magnum case doesn't mean you are loading .357 Magnum ammo. A .38 Special load in the magnum case is still a .38 Special load.

I agree there's no reason to buy a spacer if you are going to load only .357 Magnum cases. Save your money. I load a lot of both .38 Specials and .357 Magnums and I have 2 turrets set up with 2 sets of dies, one turret for each. I bought a set of Lee .357 Magnum only dies for a very good price when they were on closeout. (yes Lee used to also carry dedicated dies for the .357 Magnum instead of listing only the 38/357 combo dies in their catalog)

As for crimp, like I said above, just because you are loading in a .357 Magnum case doesn't mean it's a magnum. .38 Special load data is a .38 Special so you use the crimp you would use on a .38 Special. When loading a 148gr Wadcutter target round use a very light crimp or no crimp at all. A heavy crimp is only needed with slower burning powders in a "real" .357 Magnum load.

Just load them up, you will do fine!

tt5
November 21, 2012, 10:33 AM
thanks archangelcd,
I figured I was overthinking the whole thing. So i loaded 100 and spent yesterday afternoon at the range trying them out. They all went bang and made holes in the paper.

Bullet- 148g DEWC from Coyote Bullet works
powder- 700x-ranged from 2.5g (38spl starting) to 3.5g (357 max load)
primer cci500
OAL 1.36"
Cases were half PMC used stuff and half new Winchester.

Group sizes were pretty good for 2.5-2.9g. For 3g and up groups were bigger. Maybe it was me, I shot the heavier loads first. I'll have to run another small batch of the heavier loads to check. For now though it looks like if i target 2.7g i have a little room for noise in the charge weight.

POI was about 1/2" right of POA and pretty much on vertically.

Crimp was how the machine was set up (the 0.5 picture from my earlier post). I'll back off on that for the next batch.

Why 700x? it's one of the 2 powders i have, and looked good for the light, slow loads. And I have to find some use for the bottle.

Next I'll get a 158g Lead SWC and work out a load. I'll want to push that one a little harder.

Walkalong
November 21, 2012, 10:45 AM
700X should work well for you there. I used the spacers and one die set to load .38 and .357 for years, but finally bought another die set. Then later on still I bought a Redding Competition seater and use it for both calibers.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=6224532&postcount=20

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=114119&d=1264545271

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