JMB hated S Colt


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HisSoldier
November 17, 2012, 11:09 PM
I heard a story that I'd like to hear what validity there is in. Story was that John Browning designed a weapon, showed it to Colt, who poo pooed it. Later JMB saw it in the Colt catalog, and hated him for the rest of his days.

The only thing I can think of is that the story may be true of other players, but can't be of Colt vs JMB because of a thing called time, my brother pointed out that JMB would had to have designed said gun when he was 7 years old (I checked, that is correct).

So, the story may still be true about two other designers, or JMB and some other designer, or,,,,Colt and Remington for instance.

Has anyone heard anything like that?

Thanks

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Tommygunn
November 18, 2012, 12:47 AM
Consider:

John Moses Browning:
Born 1854 ---- died 1926

Samuel Colt:
Born 1814------ died 1862

So sometime between 1854 and 1862 a ridiculously young Johnnie Browning shows Mr. Samuel Colt a gun? Did Browning's father let kids play with guns?

I think this didn't happen .....

MachIVshooter
November 18, 2012, 02:22 AM
It's BS

Colt probably produced more Browning patent guns than any other maker.

Salmoneye
November 18, 2012, 08:15 AM
Sounds like someone got the A5/Model 11 story mixed up with something else...

Browning took the 'Auto-5' design to Winchester, but they refused to pay him what he wanted per gun...Browning then shopped it to Remington, but the guy in charge died of a heart attack before contracts were signed...Browning then went to FN, and the rest is history as they say...

meyek
November 18, 2012, 12:21 PM
For what it's worth, If I may throw in my 2 cents. JMB and a man named Johnson were equally working on the 1911. I don't know if you have ever had one. They are very different in the way they are loaded, after the magazine is loaded the butt of the gun is set on the ground and with a hand around the knurled end of the barrel a quick shove down popped the shell into the receiver. I have not seen many, I have owned one and that was enough. They were also called "widow makers" as shotgun shells were paper hulled at the time and with moisture the shell would swell up and get stuck in the barrel, some people tried firing a second shot which hit the first and you can figure the ending. Also people were known to have their head in the way of the barrel and when doing the plunger action and at times the shotgun was known to fire. It did not stay in production long. I know this is a bit off topic but it looked like the Browning hated Colt was already answered. The account of Browning leaving for the liege valley in Belgium where he met up with FN and other companies as there were many, liege being an iron rich area.
I read where Browning left before the 1911 was completed and the argument was as stated earlier but I would like to mention that the man Johnson who was working with Browning went on to design and develop the Winchester Model 12.

AethelstanAegen
November 18, 2012, 06:47 PM
Meyek, my understanding is that the Winchester 1911 wasn't really worked on by Browning at all. It was Winchester's attempt to copy his successful Auto-5 (since they were unwilling to pay him any royalties...leading to his switch to FN). Since most of the parts of Browning's Auto-5 were copyrighted, the Winchester designer Johnson, was unable to really copy the design and so it wasn't a real success. So I don't think Browning and Johnson really worked together on the project. Rather Browning designed the Auto-5 and Johnson the Winchester 1911.

hso
November 18, 2012, 07:38 PM
Hmmmm, who designed the 1911 that Colt firearms produced so many of?

How 'bout the 1902 or 1908 or ....

Logically you wouldn't think that JMB hated Colt firearms.

Detritus
November 19, 2012, 01:28 AM
but the guy in charge died of a heart attack before contracts were signed

It's my understanding that Browning never even got to show it to Remington's rep. The "guy in charge" had the heart attack with Browning waiting to be shown in and start the meeting. everyone was so tied up in dealing with the big wig dying that they forgot about JMB even being there! after waiting for an inordinate amount of time and figuring he was being ignored or snubbed, Browning left.

as for Browning and Colt relations, It was again my understanding that Colt treated Browning with great respect, knowing that they relied on his genius quite heavily. the divide of Brownings designs seems to have been that Colt got all US rights to his Pistol and MG designs (including the BAR), Winchester got the rifle and shotgun products up untill they got stingey(sp?) and lost the Auto-5 design, then the new shotgun actions went to Remington.

For some reason though I was under the impression that he already had a relationship with FN prior to teh design of the A5. European rights maybe?

Salmoneye
November 19, 2012, 07:31 AM
It's my understanding that Browning never even got to show it to Remington's rep. The "guy in charge" had the heart attack with Browning waiting to be shown in and start the meeting. everyone was so tied up in dealing with the big wig dying that they forgot about JMB even being there! after waiting for an inordinate amount of time and figuring he was being ignored or snubbed, Browning left.

I have 'heard' it that way also, but for me just does not work out logically...

If Browning was sitting in an outer office and did feel 'snubbed' and left, there would be ample time for him to learn the particulars of the man's demise, and make another 'appointment' to see whoever the successor was in that position...

It's not like he whipped out his iPhone calling FN telling them he was on his way, ran from the Remington plant, and hopped on a plane to Europe...

:cool:

For me it is more logical to believe that the successor looked at the deal and like Winchester decided to pass...

I have always wondered if the 'successor' still had a job when the A5 proved to be a hit...

In addition, I do not believe that Browning held any animosity towards Remington, or he never would have made the deal with them to license the patents to them for the Model 11...

Just my thoughts and opinions...

hentown
November 19, 2012, 08:52 AM
The truth is that both JMB and Colt were pissed because Gaston made such a superior handgun than either of them had produced. :evil:

SSN Vet
November 19, 2012, 08:56 AM
My (rusty) recollection from my (admittedly limited) reading was that Winchester passed on the Auto-5, because they did not think that their target audience (sportsmen) would be interested in an automatic nor willing to pay a premium for one. So Browning, having made the train trip from Ogden, proceeded to court another customer with it.

After getting nowhere with Remington, he by chance, met FN reps in NYC, who where in the US looking for new products that their company (which primarily made bicycles) could manufacture. They recognized opportunity staring them in the face and invited Browning to the Netherlands.

IMHO, Browning is a very interesting American engineering prodigy, who was way ahead of his time. He also had the business acumen to realize that his better opportunities were to stick with his core competency (design) and let the existing, well established and well financed manufacturers do what they did best.... production.

Wil Terry
November 19, 2012, 11:59 AM
THIS IS TOTALLY NOT---NOT!!!---TRUE AND YOU SHOULD CHANGE THE TITLE, NOW.
Yeeeee gads....

AethelstanAegen
November 19, 2012, 02:39 PM
THIS IS TOTALLY NOT---NOT!!!---TRUE AND YOU SHOULD CHANGE THE TITLE, NOW.

Just put down the coffee cup and back away slowly. It's going to be alright.

The truth is that both JMB and Colt were pissed because Gaston made such a superior handgun than either of them had produced.

There's one in every crowd. :rolleyes:

KenW.
November 19, 2012, 09:32 PM
Good Later Day Saints (Mormans) don't hate anyone. I've learned a lot about him from thr Ogden museum, and he was a great guy. One of the docents in the museum (an elderly doctor) was a family friend, and had a great deal of insight. JMB was quite devout.

orionengnr
November 19, 2012, 09:56 PM
"...JMB would had to have designed said gun when he was 7 years old ..."

What, you never heard of a prodigy? :)

gfanikf
November 19, 2012, 10:15 PM
I think the story is Smith and Wesson (or one of them) did not like Colt. It was on an episode of Tales of the Gun.

max popenker
November 20, 2012, 05:11 AM
For some reason though I was under the impression that he already had a relationship with FN prior to teh design of the A5. European rights maybe

FN was making Browning pistols since 1899, and with great success.

Salmoneye
November 20, 2012, 06:29 AM
The one 'consistency' I have heard through the telling of the various A5 'history' accounts, is that Winchester passed solely due to the fact that Browning wanted a $1 royalty per gun, as opposed to 'selling' the idea (patents) to Winchester...

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