Sig P228 better trigger than P220?


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agdodge4x4
November 18, 2012, 10:54 AM
Was shooting guns at my place yesterday, and my buddy brought his P228 compact Sig out. I know its only a 9mm, but its trigger pull is noticably lighter than my p220. Why? Its light enough that once I got on target and 'took up the slack' in the trigger, it went off. It was really really nice. Compared to mine, its really really light. Mine I guess is the standard weight, which is enough that it takes control not to pull off target when squeezing. Mine is new, less than 1000 rounds through it. Neither have had any trigger work.

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9mmepiphany
November 18, 2012, 05:36 PM
Sounds like the 220 is too big for your hand or you aren't gripping it correctly

The shorter reach, fore-n-aft, of the 9mm sized 228 frame likely offers you better leverage

agdodge4x4
November 18, 2012, 06:59 PM
The others shooting mentioned the same thing. Did the factory change the pull weights on these two pistols in 15 years? I see where leverage could be an issue but im 6'2" with a size 13 shoe...my hands fit comfortably with the p220 with lots of finger to spare. dry fire side by side and the 9mm has a noticeably lighter pull. Maybe its because its been used more. I dunno. Can cleaning the p220 somehow or oiling it lighten the pull any?

Lonestar49
November 18, 2012, 07:15 PM
...

I'm gonna guess that your young, 1000 round, 220's mainspring still feels like the 21 or 24lb factory spring pull along with your young return spring vs his 228, most likely, has far more total rounds thru it and its factory mainspring, after much more use, probably is around 18/19 lbs now along with a return spring that may be near a 5000 round mark, making the pull feel/weight of the 2 springs feel much smoother/lighter feeling vs your 2 much newer, less used, factory springs.

You can, very easily, get a 220 Wolff mainspring kit which starts, IIRC, at around 20lb, 19, 18, 17, 16lb and within 2 of my P229/40's one is with a 17lb mainspring and the other is using an 18lb.. both Wolff mainspring replacements have just over 6K flawless rounds with no light strikes, be it new or re-load ammo.

You just have to check, with grip off, whether you've got the short mainspring, about 1" long or the long mainspring, about 2" long and order the kit from Wolff.

Other than that, yours should feel like his at around the 10K mark.. of actual use.

OMMV



Ls

Sol
November 18, 2012, 07:43 PM
Maybe the 228 has the SRT (short reset trigger) on it?

9mmepiphany
November 18, 2012, 07:56 PM
Maybe the 228 has the SRT (short reset trigger) on it?
The SRT has no effect on the DA trigger pull at all. It's function is only to shorten the trigger's reset distance in SA

agdodge4x4
November 18, 2012, 10:40 PM
I glanced at those Wolff spring kits...I might look into those. Not that I NEED a lighter trigger pull. Its nothing a little practice won't fix. I can literally walk out on my porch and shoot at my target board 40 feet away. There's not reason not to be practicing I guess. :P

Who has the best prices on those kits? I assume we are talking about the mainspring that goes to the trigger, behind that right grip as you posted?

Also, lightening the hammer spring lightens the trigger pull on the SA trigger pull right?

Lonestar49
November 18, 2012, 10:54 PM
Who has the best prices on those kits? I assume we are talking about the mainspring that goes to the trigger, behind that right grip as you posted?

Also, lightening the hammer spring lightens the trigger pull on the SA trigger pull right?

...

I'd steer ya towards Wolff Springs, they're well known by many Sig and other fine gun users of his springs.

Yes, it lightens the SA pull/break just a tad, but namely you feel the DA pull become much lighter, quicker, smoother-feeling.

I'd say get the kit and start with an 18lb mainspring and go from there. It gets tempting to go lighter but 17lb is about it as I tried the 16lb mainspring but soon after 500 rounds I started getting light strikes, this on my P225 9mm, put it back to 19lb mainspring and it's like heaven going thru 1000k flawless rounds.

Here's pic of a "long" mainspring with grip off, goes up/under your hammer strut

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc306/Lonestar49/L1040701.jpg

Here's a "short" mainspring with large plastic base

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc306/Lonestar49/v5wi6g.jpg


Luck,


Ls

agdodge4x4
November 19, 2012, 12:25 PM
I talked to my buddy about that gun. He bought it new when he got it. Said its got less than 500 rounds through it. Im going to be honest, im a little concerned that mine may be abnormally heavy in the trigger pull. Maybe its leverage, I dunno. but when I went to suck up the slack in the trigger like I do mine, his went off. Maybe thats the 'new' vs. 'old' Sig quality thing I keep reading about. :/

9mmepiphany
November 19, 2012, 01:12 PM
but when I went to suck up the slack in the trigger like I do mine, his went off.
Either you're using words differently than I understand them or there is something dangerously wrong with his gun.

The slack portion in the trigger travel is the free play before your trigger movement causes the trigger bar to start rotating the hammer. This is also sometimes referred to as the pre-travel or take-up. The common termed used in trigger management is "Taking up the slack" or Taking up the travel."

It just occurred to me that we might be talking about different characteristic of the trigger. I thought you were talking about the DA trigger stroke, were you talking about the SA?

If you were, I have to withdraw my correction to sol in post #6

Lonestar49
November 19, 2012, 02:46 PM
...

So, we're talking about the trigger take-up and ease of break of his 228's SA break vs your 220's take-up but much harder/stiffer SA break..?

I wonder IF it could be in the trigger itself as I, too, bought a NIB 228/9mm not long ago and I'm thinking like mine, his came with the SRT, short reach trigger, vs the standard trigger (thicker, heavier) as seen below, possibly..?

Standard and SRT
http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc306/Lonestar49/images.jpg

As said, mine came with the SRT trigger which I didn't like, as it pinched my finger with each shot and my accuracy was way off so I changed it out to the bigger, standard, trigger and solved my problems, trigger comfort/feel and accuracy.

My 220R DA/SA has the standard trigger as well so the question is which trigger does your 220 have and IF his is the same or different as seen above than yours.

If that's it, then you might want to change to the same trigger he has and if not, then it's a simple fix via going with a lighter mainspring and using some kind of thinner lubricant down the face of the hammer face sear and on the sear itself that will stay and not attract dirt, spent powder, like gun oil will.

I've had great success with all my guns trigger actions using a synthetic dry lube called Eezox.

I'm sure it's not about quality control as, IIRC, his 228 and mine where produced in 2009 and my 220 was produced in 2005.

With your 4 first serial numbers, like mine is G382xxx I can tell you when your 220 was made a/o with your buddys 228's if you want to know. But -

I could be wrong, (i.e trigger size or feel) not "feeling" the SA action/pull/break of your gun but I've had 2 of my Sigs triggers that sucked in both DA and SA and both were easily fixed by changing out the factory mainsprings and treating the trigger action with Eezox, every now and then, as it last, works, for long periods of time in-between cleanings and re-treatments, being that Eezox is a cleaner/lubricator in one product I've been using with great results over the last 6yrs with all my guns.

And, both my 220 and 228 have the original mainsprings and both are "smooth" even/easy DA pulls with predictable SA take-up and clean SA breaks with no need of mainspring change fyi. But both have been treated, trigger works as mentioned, with Eezox which makes any metal on metal contact slippery. Whereas, my one 229/40's DA pull felt like pulling a boat anchor across a patch of tiny rocks and on the other the SA break had a lot of "creep", after taking up the slack, before the actual SA break, and that, too, was made right with lighter mainspring and treatmeant with Eezox but -

Let's start with what trigger, standard or SRT you have and your buddy's size trigger..



Ls

Blue68f100
November 19, 2012, 03:57 PM
You said 228 compact. I don't recall Sig making a 228 Compact. You may have meant 239 since you said 9mm. If this is the case does it have a DAK trigger on it. These are noticeably lighter over a std DA/SA trigger.

Would add that the West German guns are way smother on the DA/SA.

Lonestar49
November 19, 2012, 04:33 PM
I talked to my buddy about that gun. He bought it new when he got it. Said its got less than 500 rounds through it. Im going to be honest, im a little concerned that mine may be abnormally heavy in the trigger pull. Maybe its leverage, I dunno. but when I went to suck up the slack in the trigger like I do mine, his went off. Maybe that's the 'new' vs. 'old' Sig quality thing I keep reading about.


...

Yea, I agree, we first have to know if we're talking Apples and Apples, as in his gun and your gun both have DA/SA trigger actions. Or are we in an Apple vs Orange cloud where his could be a light, quick, DAO only, type trigger action, only..?

So, are you sure your buds gun is a P228/9mm and not a 239/9mm and do both your guns have full hammers, same looking hammers, and both are DA/SA, Double Action long pull before hammer falls, then hammer stays back, set in SA, Single Action mode, where the take-up is short and the actual trigger pull, hammer break/fall is a very short pull..?

Or, can you thumb-cock your hammer back into SA mode and the same with his gun..?

Let's sort it out to have a better picture to work with


Ls

wgsigs
November 19, 2012, 04:40 PM
I wonder IF it could be in the trigger itself as I, too, bought a NIB 228/9mm not long ago and I'm thinking like mine, his came with the SRT, short reach trigger, vs the standard trigger (thicker, heavier) as seen below, possibly..?


To avoid introducing any possible confusion into the discussion, I think we should stick to SIG's terminology.

The SRT in SIG parlance is the Short Reset Trigger. The trigger that Lonestar discussed and posted a picture of is what he correctly described as the Short reach Trigger, but is what SIG calls their Short Trigger, not their SRT.

If this is picking too much of a nit, then I apologize. :D

agdodge4x4
November 19, 2012, 04:41 PM
The 'trigger pull' weight I have been comparing is the SA one. When I said 'take up the slack' I meant that. On mine, I can take up the slack and feel a solid point. That's where it will break if you give it enough pressure. You have to make a solid, conscious effort. Anyway, when I did that on his, the take up was about the same, but when I got to the break point, well, it broke without much pressure in my opinion. In fact, it fired before I meant for it too. That's where my concern stemmed from.

As for it being compact, Its a P228, but its not quite as big as my P220.

Im interested in carrying mine, so, a light trigger isnt really something I want anyhow, it just was curious to me.

Ill have to get more info on his trigger though. Mine's just a regular ol p220.

To get the sear and hammer parts cleaned and re-oiled, is it simply a matter of removing the grips?

Lonestar49
November 19, 2012, 04:46 PM
...

Well, in carrying yours, your DA setting and heavy pull-thru is your safety beyond your trigger finger. Anything after a real SD/HD DA pull is what you want in the SA mode, so give it more time as you get more used to your gun.

Did you happen to remember if you had the same triggers, size wise, in pics I showed..?



Ls

The SRT in SIG parlance is the Short Reset Trigger. The trigger that Lonestar discussed and posted a picture of is what he correctly described as the Short reach Trigger, but is what SIG calls their Short Trigger, not their SRT.

If this is picking too much of a nit, then I apologize. :D



Ps.. lol, yea Short (reach) Trigger but time, in-between this last discussion has been to long.. ;)

9mmepiphany
November 19, 2012, 04:58 PM
...
Standard and SRT
http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc306/Lonestar49/images.jpg
Ls
What you have pictured is the SIG standard length trigger and their Short Trigger...using short as a adjective to indicate that the trigger's thinner profile gives a shorter reach to the face of the trigger

The SIG SRT is their designation for Short Reset Trigger with Short being the adjective, modifying Reset which is the noun.

The parts for the SRT are all internal and can be used in combination with the standard or short trigger. These are the SRT parts:

http://cdn.topgunsupply.com/images/D/IMGP2788.JPG

wgsigs and Lonestar49 both posted while I was typing...really, I'm not trying to pile on ;)

9mmepiphany
November 19, 2012, 05:13 PM
The 'trigger pull' weight I have been comparing is the SA one.
Thanks, you can disregard my prior post concerning the DA trigger stroke.

When I said 'take up the slack' I meant that. On mine, I can take up the slack and feel a solid point. That's where it will break if you give it enough pressure. You have to make a solid, conscious effort. Anyway, when I did that on his, the take up was about the same, but when I got to the break point, well, it broke without much pressure in my opinion. In fact, it fired before I meant for it too. That's where my concern stemmed from.
It might have been lighter spring tension or it may have just been a smoother engagement surfaces. You might have just applied too much pressure to the trigger anticipating that his trigger would be the same as on your gun. SA on either should be in excess of 5lbs

I have a couple of SIG 220STs, that I got as CPO guns, that have very smooth SA trigger releases...almost target quality.

To get the sear and hammer parts cleaned and re-oiled, is it simply a matter of removing the grips?
You really should detail strip the gun to lube it properly..also be sure to lube the rails (both frame and slide) with a persistent grease

wgsigs
November 19, 2012, 05:42 PM
I'm not much into the mechanics of the guns I shoot so could someone explain to me what the determining factor or gun part is that affects when/how a trigger "breaks"?

9mmepiphany
November 19, 2012, 06:41 PM
The amount of engagement, geometry and surface texture between the sear and the cocking notch of the hammer

Lonestar49
November 19, 2012, 07:00 PM
...

Here's a Beretta Px4 DA/SA view of events your looking for

Pulling of trigger pulls trigger bar which pulls/pushes sear off hammer sear face releasing hammer/fall - in short

http://www.beretta.com/index.aspx?m=116&f=10&idt=1&idc=2&CurRec=0

Used to have one on the 1911 but to many bookmarks.. lol


Ls

agdodge4x4
November 19, 2012, 09:52 PM
Lonestar, I did not recall his trigger 'feeling' any different. You may be right. It IS a different gun. Its slightly smaller, and after plugging 50 rounds through mine, I anticipated it to shoot the same way. I probably just over did it. I do know one thing....I think a 9mm is in my future. I have .40's and now a .45. That 9mm shoots really nice. Quick easy follow ups, but more importantly its a lot cheaper to shoot.

Lonestar49
November 19, 2012, 10:43 PM
...

Best get all 3 like most of us.. ;) (or more) like most of us.. lol

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc306/Lonestar49/smiley_camera4_h0bb.gif

P229/40 - P220R/45 - P229R CT 9mm *note: P229's same size as P228
http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc306/Lonestar49/Picture280.jpg


Beretta Px4 40/G - Sig P225/9mm - SA EMP 1911 SAO 9mm - Sig P228/9mm
http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc306/Lonestar49/Picture420.jpg


Ls

chris in va
November 20, 2012, 12:13 AM
FWIW, the DA trigger pull on my 1995 220 was terribly hard. I never got around to changing the mainspring before selling. The pull on my friend's 229 was less difficult.

coalman
November 20, 2012, 01:54 PM
I have a W. German all-original P226, my buddy has a W. German CPO (i.e. rebuilt firing control group) P226, and I also have a newest production P229R 9mm with a W. German P226 grooved trigger. So, my P226 and P229R have the same trigger, while my buddy has a smooth one. But, my P226 SA trigger pull is FAR better (smoother, lighter and more crisp) than the other two. Sig has changed the secret sauce in the sear release IMO. My P229R has a FAR better DA pull than either though.

Lonestar49
November 20, 2012, 03:16 PM
My P229R has a FAR better DA pull than either though.


...

Yep, part of that, good, secret sauce was when they converted from the long 2" mainsprings to the much shorter 1" mainsprings with elevated, plastic, bases making for less spring tension build-up during DA pulls and far less "felt" possible mainspring grind along the hammer strut during the DA compression cycle.

Some of the_new works are proving out to be a better, more forgiving, design-change-improvement with the DA pulls out of the box and, lasting, up a long road of use.. IMHO

ommv,


Ls

agdodge4x4
November 20, 2012, 08:13 PM
What are you guys suggestions for a good grease for my pistols? I have some 'copper' grease I used on my Glocks, but its messy. Any other suggestions?

chris in va
November 20, 2012, 08:20 PM
I use synthetic motor oil on all my handguns. No issues.

9mmepiphany
November 20, 2012, 08:22 PM
The usual Professional recommendation is Slide Glide or Lubriplate...I've even heard folks who use Mobile 1 axle/bearing grease.

What you want is a persistent grease that stays where you put it during your range session

1858
November 21, 2012, 02:10 PM
What you have pictured is the SIG standard length trigger and their Short Trigger...using short as a adjective to indicate that the trigger's thinner profile gives a shorter reach to the face of the trigger

The SIG SRT is their designation for Short Reset Trigger with Short being the adjective, modifying Reset which is the noun.


I can confirm this because I took the original picture shown by Lonestar49!! A couple of years ago I called up the folks at Grayguns and asked if they had any of the older standard triggers because I didn't like the short triggers that shipped with my P220 Combat and Carry. I swapped out both triggers and gave the short triggers away to a member on the SIG forum who preferred the short trigger. I like the Short Reset Trigger (SRT) in my P239.

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