My fisrt AR and I bought H335


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grubbylabs
November 18, 2012, 09:26 PM
Any one else use this and how did it go? Does this powder do better at the upper end or lower end?

I have a M&P sport with a 1/8 twist.

I bought 1lb or H335

200 Hornady 55grn soft points.

And so far only about 80 pieces of once fired brass from new ammo I bought.

Also I have heard that a small base die is in order for such a rifle and I plan on purchasing the RCBS X dies. Any input here?

Thanks.

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Walkalong
November 18, 2012, 10:45 PM
Most folks don't use small base dies, but they give you a little advantage with tough to size cases. My sizer is standard and I never have problems.

H-335 works great in .223 and AR's. Plenty of folks use it.

Schutzen
November 18, 2012, 11:41 PM
Try 24.5 grains, It shoots well for me.

ArchAngelCD
November 18, 2012, 11:43 PM
Agreed, H335 is a great powder for the .223. I use a charge of 25.0gr H335 under a 55gr bullet which is close but not at the top end of the charge range. H335 meters well and burns fairly completely.

H335 is the canister version of the none canister WC844 which is the military powder used for 5.56mm ammo.

gunner69
November 18, 2012, 11:47 PM
H335 has worked well for me too......:D

grubbylabs
November 19, 2012, 12:07 AM
Ok so I may have chosen well for powder and it likes the upper end of the charge.

But what about the small base dies. A year ago or so I read a thread where every one basically said for the AR plat form you need to use small base dies. If they are not needed then what is their purpose? Thanks.

grubbylabs
November 19, 2012, 12:28 AM
I just noticed that my Hornady book has a max charge of 23.2 grains. For those of you above, where are you getting your data?

Doug b
November 19, 2012, 12:49 AM
My Bushmaster really likes 24.5 gr. of H335 and a CCI 450 primer and a 55 gr. Nosler ballistic tip.Scarey accurate.Never found a need for a small base die,tried one once was a major pita.

TwoEyedJack
November 19, 2012, 01:14 AM
The only time I use a small base die is when I buy once fired brass. Some machine guns have oversized chambers and if your chamber is cut a little tight, a regular die might not size the brass down enough. I have an AR with a DPMS fluted stainless barrel, and it is definitely on the tight side. Once the brass goes through the small base sizer, I go back to a normal full length sizer for subsequent reloading.

ArchAngelCD
November 19, 2012, 01:22 AM
I just noticed that my Hornady book has a max charge of 23.2 grains. For those of you above, where are you getting your data?
Check the Hodgdon Load Data Site (http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp) and you will see the charge weights are higher than your book. Compare the OAL in both and you might see why the data is different.

grubbylabs
November 19, 2012, 01:35 AM
I think they have the same data listed on the bottle, looks like it max's out at 26 grains. Interesting:confused:

gunner69
November 19, 2012, 01:45 AM
Never had a problem where I needed small base dies.......:neener:

ArchAngelCD
November 19, 2012, 05:07 AM
I think they have the same data listed on the bottle, looks like it max's out at 26 grains. Interesting:confused:
Compare the OAL from both and that may shed some light on the different powder loads.

hentown
November 19, 2012, 09:06 AM
I'm loading with 844, exclusively, for my ARs. I'm using 25gr with 55gr. bullets. I use the RCBS X die, but have never used a small base die. I've loaded thousands of rounds with "standard" dies, and my .223 reloads never fail.

rskent
November 19, 2012, 09:41 AM
I use 23.6gr 335 under a 52gr match king. Shoots great in every gun I have tried it in.
223, 5.56,and 223 wylde chambers. YMMV.

grubbylabs
November 19, 2012, 09:42 AM
Do you use range brass? I plan on picking up quite a bit as time goes by.

Walkalong
November 19, 2012, 10:14 AM
I am shooting range brass right now. Standard sizer. I size to fit a Wilson case gauge. So far I have not had any that would not size to fit the gauge. Never say never though.

With range brass you need to, besides the normal outward visual checks, check them internally for signs of pending case head separation. This is easy to do. Even once fired brass can be trash if the gun it was fired in has head space problems, or if it is not once fired and someone sized the brass excessively. (Pushed the shoulder back to far.)

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=103714&d=1250726722

This case would have been OK to fire again, but it is showing the beginning signs of the "rut", or case stretching.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=174544&stc=1&d=1352651797
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=174545&stc=1&d=1352651797

Krogen
November 19, 2012, 11:51 AM
I've been puzzled by loading data published for H335 in 5.56mm. If it is truly the canister version of the MIL spec powder, why does the MIL document show higher charges? I have pulled down XM193 ammo and found the powder charge is indeed per the MIL spec.

When I load to the max charges published in handloading manuals, my velocity falls ~200 fps lower than the loading book predicts and doesn't reach MIL velocities. It's probably not my chrono, because firing XM193 I get within 20 fps of the MIL spec velocity. Recoil is noticeably more vigorous.

At first, I figured I had a slower/weaker lot of H335. I no longer believe that's the case. By exceeding the published data by 2-3 grains to match that of the MIL spec charge, I'd probably hit the MIL velocity and also match the predicted velocities in the loading books. I'm not comfortable going over published data by that much! I'm quite puzzled by the discrepancy.

Is this a clear case of the over-conservatism people suspect of commercial loading books? What am I missing?

rsrocket1
November 19, 2012, 01:28 PM
5.56 is spec'ed at 62,366 psi, .223 Rem is SAAMI spec'ed at 55,000 psi.

You should work up a load yourself and look for the charge that produces the best groups but stays below the max recommended charge. I started at 23 and worked up to 25 and found that my AR liked 25.0g H335 under the 55g fmjbt. I would have been happy if it were at 23, but there was simply a huge tightening of the group at 25.0 so that's what I load to.

Henry45
November 19, 2012, 02:21 PM
This is what I chronographed last weekend w/5.56. Same as you, 55g FMJBT.

2.20 OAL

H335 - 24.5 g = 2712 Highest 2787/Lowest 2656
H335 - 25g = 2769 Highest 2836/Lowest 2711
--------------------------------------------------------------------
2.215 OAL

WC 844 - 25g = 2745 Highest 2778/lowest 2720
WC 844 - 26g = 2822 Highest 2845/Lowest 2793
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Also shot some Federal 223 rounds and their total came out to 2845 average.

grubbylabs
November 19, 2012, 04:53 PM
I am happy with the best group that requires the least amount of powder. I don't need a ton of speed, I just want to hit what I am aiming at precisely.

Direwolf
November 19, 2012, 06:32 PM
I just noticed that my Hornady book has a max charge of 23.2 grains. For those of you above, where are you getting your data?

If you'll notice in the Hornady manual, the OAL is 2.200" whereas in the other manuals I own the OAL is longer, like 2.260".

medalguy
November 19, 2012, 07:26 PM
Grubbylabs, I would suggest getting a set of standard dies and try them. Remember everything has a tolerance-- dies and chambers. Unless you have a very tight chamber and very loose dies, you should be able to use standard dies just fine. I've reloaded probably 70,000 rounds of 5.56 over the years and most of it came from machine guns. I know for a fact that about 20,000 rounds of it came from a SAW, because I picked it up on the range myself, and it all sized, chambered and fired in my ARs just fine.

If you have problems chambering the ammo after loading about 20 rounds, then and only then get a small base die set. There's no point in overworking your brass more than necessary.

RustyFN
November 19, 2012, 07:34 PM
My main powder for 223 is H-335. I load 24.7 grains with a 55 grain bulk Hornady FMJBT and they seem to be fairly accurate. I have never needed a small base die loading for my AR.

dalv
November 20, 2012, 08:21 PM
DPMS 16" Bull Barrel - most accurate loads are using 335. I am going to use it exclusive as my gun loves it.

Cherokee
November 20, 2012, 08:29 PM
Been using H335 since 1976 for reloading 223, many thousands of rounds.

TFL
November 20, 2012, 10:57 PM
Link to armyammo data: http://www.tuffsteel.com/manuals/armyammodata.pdf

Meta
November 21, 2012, 10:09 AM
24.5 grains H335 under a 55 grain Nosler Ballistic tip. Seated to magazine length in an AR, or seated to within a few thousandths of jamb in my bolt guns. This load has always shot extremely well for me. Velocity in most bolt guns runs about 3150 FPS. Shorter barrel AR carbines will run slower.

Krogen
November 21, 2012, 01:52 PM
Link to armyammo data: http://www.tuffsteel.com/manuals/armyammodata.pdf

This link is exactly where I found the military load load of WC844 significantly exceeds loading book maximums for H335. When I hear that WC844 is a non-canister version of H335, I wonder why the loading books don't go to this high of a charge for H335. As I noted in #18 above, max loads of H335 don't get to the velocities that XM193 does. Also, the books are wildly optimistic regarding velocity. I have chronographed XM193 and achieved mil spec velocities. Max loads of H335 don't get near MIL velocities nor do the get near the loading book velocities. I pulled down a couple of XM193 rounds and found the powder charge to be 28.5 gr of "something" which may very well be WC844. This is consistent with the referenced MIL doc. It sure seems I could load H335 to the WC844 levels in the linked MIL doc, but going beyond book maxes isn't very comfortable. This is quite perplexing.

TheCracker
November 22, 2012, 12:56 AM
25 grains of h335 and 55 grain is a classic ar load.

gunner69
November 22, 2012, 02:23 AM
I too, use 24.5gr under the 55gr Nosler Pill with Federal Match Primers. Seems to work well in my 5.56/.223 rifles.

grubbylabs
November 22, 2012, 11:45 PM
Well my dies will be here early next week and hopefully I will be able to get some loaded up to test over the net weekend.

Sounds like I got lucky with the powder choice.

ArchAngelCD
November 24, 2012, 12:23 AM
This link is exactly where I found the military load load of WC844 significantly exceeds loading book maximums for H335. When I hear that WC844 is a non-canister version of H335, I wonder why the loading books don't go to this high of a charge for H335. As I noted in #18 above, max loads of H335 don't get to the velocities that XM193 does. Also, the books are wildly optimistic regarding velocity. I have chronographed XM193 and achieved mil spec velocities. Max loads of H335 don't get near MIL velocities nor do the get near the loading book velocities. I pulled down a couple of XM193 rounds and found the powder charge to be 28.5 gr of "something" which may very well be WC844. This is consistent with the referenced MIL doc. It sure seems I could load H335 to the WC844 levels in the linked MIL doc, but going beyond book maxes isn't very comfortable. This is quite perplexing.
XM193 ammo is 5.56mm ammo, not .223 Remington ammo therefor the pressures will be higher in the XM193 than any commercial .223 ammo or any load data for .223 ammo. You will not be able to mimic the velocities that the XM193 ammo generate without exceeding the pressure limits set for .223 Rem ammo. That is one of the differences between 5.56X45mm NATO ammo (62,366 psi) and .223 Remington ammo. (55,000 psi)

billybob44
November 24, 2012, 12:43 AM
Agreed, H335 is a great powder for the .223. I use a charge of 25.0gr H335 under a 55gr bullet which is close but not at the top end of the charge range. H335 meters well and burns fairly completely.

H335 is the canister version of the none canister WC844 which is the military powder used for 5.56mm ammo.
Excellent post..
I have been shooting 25.0gr. of WC844 in both of my PSA AR's, with a 55gr. bullet. One is a 20" rifle+the other is a 16 1/2" carbine-both are 1-7" twist.
This load works well for me with good accuracy.

Plus the WC844 can be had, around here, for $80.00 per 8LB...Bill.

grubbylabs
December 3, 2012, 12:33 AM
My can and my Hornady book both show the same COAL but the can maxes out at 25grains. So I am approaching slowly to see what happens. I have leaned that just because one set of data says they can do it, does not mean I can. So am a little leery about going past my Hornady book data.

45lcshooter
December 3, 2012, 09:57 AM
Love h335 in the 223. Been loading 1000's of rounds with it.

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