Limp Wristing Fact or Fiction-Calling 'Tuner


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Ky Larry
November 19, 2012, 10:20 AM
I read on another thread that limp wristing will not cause FT Extract and FT Feed. I have intentionally limp wristed my Kimber and it would not extract the fired case. Are limp wristed malfunctions fact or fiction?

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larryflew
November 19, 2012, 10:21 AM
Same with 2 of my Kimbers. Not with CZ 97B in 45 or any of my 9mm.

rule303
November 19, 2012, 10:48 AM
Fact, lots of guns will malfunction if limp wristed.

JERRY
November 19, 2012, 11:25 AM
there is a video somewhere where a guy is using the "two finger " hold on a Glock 17 (9mm) and a 1911 (.45acp) and while firing the Glock jammed...not the 1911.....something about the frame being heavier kept the gun in place better while the slide cycled.....

1911Tuner
November 19, 2012, 11:29 AM
A limp-wrist malfunction can be induced in anything, given a strong enough recoil spring.

It does happen, even with steel framed pistols that function fine with the correct spring rates.

This can be blamed on the notion that a strong spring is required to prevent frame damage, and the kool-aid has been consumed in abundant quantities.

In discussing locked breech, recoil operated pistols such as the aforementioned Kimber...the "recoil" spring's function is in returning the slide to battery...not reducing slide to frame impact. It does do that, but it's incidental.

The reason that the chopped-down variants require a stronger spring is in order to compensate for the reduced mass by accelerating the slide fast enough to provide the momentum necessary for a reliable feed/return to battery. This tends to give these pistols a little narrower operating window. Enough spring to return them to battery, but not so much that they can't make full slide travel rearward with varying ammunition...and the less massive the slide, the narrower the window gets.

barstoolguru
November 19, 2012, 11:34 AM
a lot of guns won't cycle right if limp wristed because the energy of the slide is absorbed when the gun isn't held firmly causing a FTF. Glock’s are prone to this and can't handle limp wristing


video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jh9JhCyFFxA

bannockburn
November 19, 2012, 11:45 AM
Fact though some guns seem to be more inclined to it than others. I know I can do it easily with my Glock 17 but not as much so with my Colt Combat Commander.

AK103K
November 19, 2012, 11:58 AM
Glock’s are prone to this and can't handle limp wristing
I dont think its limp wristing specifically, but how the shooter is holding the gun and what they do when it fires that causes the issue.

Ive tried to make a couple of my Glocks fail to function with a limp wrist/grip, and was unsuccessful when the gun was held "normally" in the hand, with the wrist "behind" the gun. Even with a bent, and unsupporting elbow, the gun fired without issue. I shot 4 full mags, 68 rounds, without a single stoppage. I was using basically a "no grip" hold when I shot them. The gun was simply resting on the web of my hand, and the trigger guard on the top of my middle finger. The only thing keeping the gun from leaving my hand when fired, was my finger in the trigger.

Interesting enough, the Colt Commander I was using as a sort of control, failed to fire a number of times with the same "grip", because the grip safety was not fully engaged. I had to keep shifting the gun in my grip to get it to shoot.

I did encounter a +/- 30% failure rate with the Glocks when I held the gun to the side by two fingers, like in the video, but it wasnt every round, like the video, and it really wasnt always one in three, more like, once in awhile. For the most part, the Glocks still functioned when shot that way, more than they didnt.


All the video shows, is that when held in a totally unrealistic grip, some guns might shoot every time, and some might not. Other than that, there is nothing there that shows any real world performance. If you add a "person" target to that mix, and add the hit record to it, you will find that the two finger hold just makes noise.

I did that very thing while doing my test, and when held normally, with no grip, and basically just point shooting, I still got "good" hits on the target. When I did the same with the two finger hold, I was lucky to hit anywhere on the paper, basically a 24"x40" piece of paper.

g_one
November 19, 2012, 12:09 PM
A lot of it depends on just how limp the wristing is. If you're intentionally trying to limp-wrist to see if it will malfunction, chances are you're doing it in a significantly more exaggerated way than would ever realistically happen, even by weak-handed or off-guard shooters.

JERRY
November 19, 2012, 12:18 PM
here you go.......some guns are just more prone to it...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsewsolPyBU&feature=plcp

AK103K
November 19, 2012, 12:37 PM
A lot of it depends on just how limp the wristing is. If you're intentionally trying to limp-wrist to see if it will malfunction, chances are you're doing it in a significantly more exaggerated way than would ever realistically happen, even by weak-handed or off-guard shooters.
I agree with what youre saying, and thats what I was trying to duplicate, but I really didnt get the same results as the videos. Then again, I think its hard for someone who understands and doesnt have the problem, to replicate it easily.

What I found was, even with no grip or support with the hand, as long as there was "mass" directly behind the gun, it would usually function without trouble. Remove that mass, and things started to change.

Personally, I dont believe the "wrist" specifically is the problem. I think its more of the shooter allowing the gun hand/arm to move backwards with the gun during recoil thats really the issue, and generally what Ive seen with people who do have the issue. Once you explain that to them, the issue usually stops pretty much immediately.

C0untZer0
November 19, 2012, 12:41 PM
I have intentionally limp wristed my Kimber and it would not extract the fired case

Seems to be fact for your Kimber

wally
November 19, 2012, 02:20 PM
here you go.......some guns are just more prone to it...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsewsolPyBU&feature=plcp

These are "stovepipe" failures. Any pistol will do it if your hold lets the gun "follow" the empty and gives the slide a chance to "catch" it on the way forward.

aarondhgraham
November 19, 2012, 03:27 PM
I own a Bersa Thundder 22 that performs perfectly,,,
So I bought one for a lady friend of mine.

Hers jammed at least twice every magazine,,,
Mine hasn't malfunctioned even once.

We traded pistols,,,
Mine jammed for her every mag,,,
Hers ran perfectly for me every mag.

Once I taught her how to hold the gun tightly,,,
She hasn't had even one more malfunction.

'Nuff said?

Aarond

.

TarDevil
November 19, 2012, 03:40 PM
The only time my SR9c had problems was when my daughter shot it with extremely limp wrist... stove pipes, failure to go in battery. She's having the same issues with her new Hi Point 9mm. Neither gun has malfunctioned otherwise.

Sheepdog1968
November 19, 2012, 04:52 PM
This is a fact. Some guns models are more prone to it than others.

ahil925
November 19, 2012, 05:02 PM
My Taurus PT-22 will jam (FTE or stovepipe) if I hold it lightly and with a single hand grip, pinkie under magwell. The minute I switch to a firm single or a double handed grip all jamming issues evaporate.

When I switch from firing a SAA revolver to my Hi-Point C-9 I have to remember to use a firmer/different grip to keep it cycling proper.

AK103K
November 19, 2012, 05:15 PM
When I switch from firing a SAA revolver to my Hi-Point C-9 I have to remember to use a firmer/different grip to keep it cycling proper.
What about when switching back? :D

franconialocal
November 19, 2012, 05:59 PM
Fact. It's happened to me, and many people I've supervised and trained at the range. The transfer of force is deadened enough that the slide won't run the full cycle..somewhat of a "short stroke" if you will. IMHO

9mmforMe
November 19, 2012, 06:12 PM
In my experience...fact. I had a friend who was shooting my Ruger P95PR15 and he was not holding it correctly (limp wrist) and it FTF and FTE several times.
For me, the gun had never malfunctioned, not once in over 1000 rounds down range.

GLOOB
November 19, 2012, 07:08 PM
Gun, recoil spring, grip, and ammo all work together. If you have a heavy enough frame, you can find a load/recoil spring combo that takes the grip out of the equation. If the frame is light enough, you need to have some sort of grip, otherwise the whole gun will just go back, instead of just the slide, cuz without a hand gripping it the only thing keeping the frame from recoiling is inertia; and inertia is proportional to mass. Common sense to anyone that graduated high school.

Roadking Rider
November 19, 2012, 07:09 PM
Limp wristing is a true problem, but more so of a problem with smaller pistols.

intercooler
November 19, 2012, 07:31 PM
My opinion is if they are set up for a limp-wrist way of shooting they should run. I have never felt you need a death-grip for a pistol to cycle if right.

GLOOB
November 19, 2012, 07:55 PM
With the right handload, I can "limpwrist" my semiauto rifle. Good shoulder weld, and it runs fine. Hold it loosely, and it jams.

U-235
November 19, 2012, 09:44 PM
I intentionally limp wristed my Springfield Operator to see if it would malfunction. After a lot of trying I finally got a failure to eject. It was actually beyond limp wristing, as in I had a totally unrealistic grip. I was letting my entire hand and forearm move rearward when the gun shot. Even with all of this the gun only hiccuped once, it cycled fine every other time. This was with Winchester White Box ammo.

barnbwt
November 20, 2012, 12:07 AM
This can be blamed on the notion that a strong spring is required to prevent frame damage

I always thought springs were made heavy to delay unlocking a tad, to help make the shot more accurate (i.e. less movement in your hand while the bullet is in the barrel). I have a (too) heavy spring in my CZ52 for this reason (and the old one was a limp noodle), and it is very easy to limp wrist with the 2X heavier spring. However, I no longer have a lazy slide bouncing around my return to aim every shot :)

TCB

holdencm9
November 20, 2012, 12:22 AM
I always thought springs were made heavy to delay unlocking a tad, to help make the shot more accurate

No the short recoil system (the barrel being locked to the slide) is what "delays" that. The spring does very little, at least in the first fraction of an inch of movement. It has more of an effect the more it is compressed, but overall still not much.

The only time my Beretta choked was on underpowered (Rem UMC) ammo with a new recoil spring, and running pretty dry (my fault). It was not limp-wristing per se, but had the same effect i.e. the slide had too much resistance relative to the frame. And likewise, you could "force" it to function if you sort of pushed on the grip as the trigger was pulled, which enabled the slide to cycle completely, regardless.

Limp-wristing is real, just the extent of how sensitive guns are varies. Imagine if you put an autoloader sideway on a smooth surface like a glass table, and fired a shot with no resistance...most would not cycle, because the force of the cartridge would be applied to move/rotate the gun across the table instead of cycle the action.

1911Tuner
November 20, 2012, 05:37 AM
I always thought springs were made heavy to delay unlocking a tad, to help make the shot more accurate.

Nope. I've shot a 1911 more than a few times without a spring in it to demonstrate that it has nothing to do with unlock timing. As long as a full-length guide rod is used to keep everything aligned, you can shoot it repeatedly with no issues or frame damage.

A straight/undelayed blowback does depend to a large extent on the spring to keep the breech from opening too early...but not a locked-breech pistol.

hentown
November 20, 2012, 09:33 AM
Some people are just better at limpwristing than others. :cool:

AK103K
November 20, 2012, 09:55 AM
Yea, the ones who dont know how to shoot properly. ;)

r1derbike
November 20, 2012, 09:01 PM
Had one FTF (fire) high-primer strike because of 1 failure to return to battery in over 900 rounds on my SA XD-S. My fault entirely. I was crankin' rounds downrange as my wife was waiting for me, and my grip was so tired I just blew it. Prolly rode the slide home a bit too on that round. Held downrange for 30, slapped, racked, kept on booming 'til empty, loaded-up the round in another mag, held-on firmly as usual, and finished the session. Don't remember how many rounds 200-300 maybe, and it was obviously 1 too many.

Small frame semi-auto hand-cannon with stout springs and short, somewhat light slides are prone to it. Definitely have to show those things who's boss.:D

The Lone Haranguer
November 21, 2012, 01:34 PM
If it is too sensitive to a perfect hold to run, I don't want it. You may not be able to achieve a perfect grip or stance if, for example, you've been wounded yourself.

I have run a magazineful or two through a S&W Third Generation, SIG-Sauer and a Glock, using my weak (left) hand with a loose grip, and never got them to malfunction, at least for that brief period. But then, I have also read accounts of normally reliable pistols malfunctioning when fired from a machine rest. Here, the gun is left free to recoil and swings up from the bottom, albeit far below where a human hand would be able to grasp it.

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