IDPA: Pulling back hammer in DA/SA semi-auto out of the holster?


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Gabes220
November 20, 2012, 04:41 AM
Hello everyone,

Hopefully someone can clear up the rules here for me. At a recent match, I witnessed a competitor do something interesting at a COF.

On the buzzer, he removed his Beretta m9 from its holster, presented the pistol to the first target, and used his weak hand to cock the hammer of his pistol. This allowed him to begin engaging targets in single action as opposed to taking that dreaded double action first shot.

Is this legal per IDPA rules? If not, what sort of penalty would be incurred?

Thanks for the info.


Gabes220

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Sam1911
November 20, 2012, 05:42 AM
That's perfectly legal. He started the stage with the gun in its decocked position. No different than if he was shooting SSR or ESR and decided to cock the hammer for a single-action shot.

It's slow and should be unnecessary, but there's no penalty for it. (Except the one he's imposing on himself by not having the skill to break the first shot correctly.)

9mmepiphany
November 20, 2012, 05:29 PM
This allowed him to begin engaging targets in single action as opposed to taking that dreaded double action first shot.
Besides not being against the rules, there is a greater disadvantage to this than any possible advantage...unless you weren't being facetious about the dreaded DA first shot.*

Not only is it not more accurate, an average shooter should be able to place 3-4 shots on target in the time it takes to follow the procedure you have described.

* If you were serious, I'd refer you to the second link, on shooting technique, in my signature

Gabes220
November 20, 2012, 07:30 PM
* If you were serious, I'd refer you to the second link, on shooting technique, in my signature

Definitely not serious. Shot a Sig 220R as a Sharpshooter in IDPA and USPSA for a couple years before switching to SSP with a glock 34 classified as Expert. Thanks for the help though.

The competitor I'm referring to always attempts to win the "most accurate" award at my club by having the least number of target points down. In a 6 stage match he'll have around 5 points down but be towards the bottom in terms of ranking. That's how he competes.... so more power to him I guess.

I was SO'ing him when he performed that maneuver and I wasn't sure what to make of it. I guess I shouldn't worry about it.

9mmepiphany
November 20, 2012, 08:15 PM
It's been a while since I've seen it, but there used to be a school of thought that you should put the first round into the berm to get to the SA trigger press.

It is certainly faster than thumbing the hammer back, but it plays havoc with your capacity/shots needed. I could even see it argued that it could be a FDR call...either as "round dumping" to get a favorable slide lock reload or that it isn't something you'd do on the street...I think the first would be a easier argument, the second is weak, as this is still a game

David E
November 20, 2012, 09:45 PM
Gunsite used to teach, and may still, cocking the hammer with the off side thumb during the presentation. It really doesn't take that long.

But it's quicker to master the DA pull and shoot that way. Folks have outshot the single action guns before using DA/SA guns, it just takes someone serious enough to learn how. That said, it's not that difficult to learn.

Bovice
November 21, 2012, 09:28 AM
Most IDPA shots aren't that far, a DA pull on one shot isn't really a dealbreaker.

David E
November 21, 2012, 10:26 AM
Most IDPA shots aren't that far, a DA pull on one shot isn't really a dealbreaker.

True, but I'm constantly amazed at how few people take the time to master the DA pull.

More times than not, if someone claims to be "good with a revolver," it turns out they're cocking the hammer for every shot.

Hoser
November 21, 2012, 12:16 PM
Our last indoor ICORE match, we let semi autos play as well, a Smith 627 beat all the bottom feeding semi-autos at the match. Getting used to a DA trigger just takes time.

David E
November 21, 2012, 02:58 PM
Getting used to a DA trigger just takes time.

But not a lot of time. It really just takes the desire to learn to master it.

Ankeny
November 22, 2012, 11:32 AM
Yup, getting used to a DA trigger doesn't take a whole lot of time. But as a slow learner it took me a long time to literally "master" a DA trigger.

Hoser
November 22, 2012, 10:42 PM
Time will tell if I can Master a DA trigger. My goal for 2013 is to make GM in Revo...

twofifty
November 23, 2012, 01:00 AM
Setting a goal (like Hoser who wants to make revo GM in 2013) is a great way to improve one's shooting.

My own shooting improved after a metallic silhouette champion introduced me to his discipline. He said to pick a small attainable goal, and to work at that - of course leaving room for the free-spirited fun of shooting and plinking so that you don't burn out. He said to attain that first goal, then to set another; to build up gradually on a series of small successes.

My first goal was to learn to accept a good enough rifle sight picture and to release the shot. Once I learned to take the da*n shot (i.e. stop dawdling along waiting for the perfect sight picture) I set several other goals. Two years later the winner's trophy ended up on my mantlepiece. Nothing earth shattering: it was for my local F&G club's position shooting rifle league.

All this to say that in shooting like in life goal setting is a fine way to go.

splithoof
November 24, 2012, 02:20 AM
Cooper called the technique of wasting a round down range as the "shot-cock". I have enjoyed reading about such antics, and really laughed when I saw it done at an event, leading to an instant DQ.

waktasz
November 24, 2012, 02:00 PM
How is that a DQ unless he puts it into the dirt at his feet or over the berm?

David E
November 24, 2012, 08:41 PM
It's more advantageous to "waste" the first shot into the center of the target.

splithoof
November 25, 2012, 02:06 AM
It was the principle of the action; rather than strive to become proficient with his sidearm, the participant wasted a round of ammunition that could have been necessary to solving the problem.

waktasz
November 25, 2012, 08:55 AM
So a made up rule then? Sounds awesome.

Hoser
November 25, 2012, 09:00 AM
the participant wasted a round of ammunition that could have been necessary to solving the problem.

I guess it was not actually an IDPA match then. Just kind of an IDPA style match.

Gabes220
November 25, 2012, 09:41 PM
A DQ seems a bit extreme. I could see and FTDR though.

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2

GEM
November 25, 2012, 09:53 PM
Having had an IDPA participant shoot a round a few inches away from my toes on the draw with a 1911 (I was score keeper), I could see this increasing ND possibilities with a slip.

1KPerDay
November 25, 2012, 10:34 PM
I've thumb-cocked the beretta for the first shot before... if the stage begins with a long/accurate shot I'd miss the first DA one anyway. :D

splithoof
November 25, 2012, 11:41 PM
No, it was not an actual "IDPA" match, but an event that required careful ammunition management.

Bovice
November 26, 2012, 04:48 AM
So yesterday (Sunday) I shot IDPA using my P220 in CDP. I have always used a P229 .40 and even once as a 357 SIG, so the reduction in available rounds per stage was interesting. I'll even venture to say it was more fun that way. 7+1 with two additional 7 round mags... yikes!

I don't believe I was hampered in any way with a DA first shot against the 1911 guys. They still have to flip off the safety! In fact, when we did the el presidente as the final stage after 5 hours of standing around and shooting, my first target that I engaged in the sequence was my tightest group (down 0) and also included the DA first shot. It was limited vickers so no extra shots.

Don't be afraid of DA!

45_auto
November 26, 2012, 09:32 AM
I don't believe I was hampered in any way with a DA first shot against the 1911 guys.

It all depends on the level of competition you're competing at. I don't recall seeing any DA/SA guns at last years IDPA World Shoot.

An article on their guns is here:

http://www.idpa.com/blog/post/2012/04/20/Glock-and-SW-Make-Up-67-of-IDPA-World-Shoot-Guns.aspx

David E
November 26, 2012, 12:26 PM
It all depends on the level of competition you're competing at.

Ernie Langdon used a DA/SA Sig 220 to beat all SA shooters, including Rob Leatham at an IDPA Nationals.

Ben Stoeger used a DA/SA Beretta to win the USPSA Nationals, which Langdon had also done a few years before.

Beating the best shooters in the world is a pretty high level of competition.

David E
November 26, 2012, 12:30 PM
So yesterday (Sunday) I shot IDPA using my P220 in CDP.

I don't believe I was hampered in any way with a DA first shot against the 1911 guys. They still have to flip off the safety!

Don't be afraid of DA!

I presume you won the division. How far away was Second place?

On a side note, the 1911 safety, done right, doesn't slow anything down.

Of course, the DA pull, done right, doesn't either.

Bovice
November 26, 2012, 01:43 PM
LOL I highly doubt I won. But I don't think I brought up the rear either. I'm unclassified in CDP anyway.

9mmepiphany
November 26, 2012, 02:00 PM
On a side note, the 1911 safety, done right, doesn't slow anything down.

Of course, the DA pull, done right, doesn't either.
And these are the facts that still seem on confound a lot of people.

I just spent a day with Mickey Fowler , likely best know for his accomplishments with the 1911, learning to shoot the Bianchi Mover. He said that using a DA/SA SIG X-Five Allaround last year at the Bianchi Cup didn't make a wit of difference on the mover

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