Does anyone dabble in saps or blackjacks?


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Big_John1961
November 20, 2012, 10:59 AM
Just curious. I've got a decent collection of 9 right now, a mix of D3 Protection and Green Man Leather models. I really enjoy them. Throwback weapons of a bygone era.

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Il Duca
November 20, 2012, 01:03 PM
I have been toying with the idea of carrying one, just waiting for the right one to pop up for sale. I think it would be a great carry weapon that just slips in the pocket. No holster, no worry about printing and a definate edge over just me mitts.

rcmodel
November 20, 2012, 01:12 PM
And also highly illegal in most every state in the union.

You can get in just as much trouble carrying one as a gun without a CCW permit.
Maybe more.

rc

Il Duca
November 20, 2012, 01:28 PM
As far as I know they are legal to carry in FL - which is where I am- with a concealed permit. Other places, I couldn't say.

bikerdoc
November 20, 2012, 01:53 PM
I love them. Have a bunch.
Back in the day as a young beat cop, it was my go to fight stopper.
But I collect only as it is illegal here to carry

hso
November 20, 2012, 01:58 PM
If you search on those terms here in NFW you'll get several threads on them.

oldbear
November 20, 2012, 02:16 PM
I carried a black jack to work for more years than I care to remember. I still keep one in the door pocket of the car. As others have posted they are illegal in most areas, you should know that if you decide to carry one.

Also keep in mind that black jacks are a very dangerous weapon, and hitting someone with one can easily be lethal. NEVER hit someone in the head with one unless you are justified in killing them.

whetrock
November 20, 2012, 02:19 PM
I've got one of the cheap repro Blackjacks of lower quality and while illegal to carry outside my home, it's an interesting piece of melee weaponry that is just for my admiration, kinda like a pair of brass knuckles. It seems like it could serve as one heck of a deterrent if needed and could deliver a blow all out of proportion to its size.

Pismopal
November 20, 2012, 02:46 PM
Still have my original although the leather is in bad shape. I only used it once...on a head and it did not knock the guy out and he bled all over me from the cut while the fight continued..even my jacket pocket had blood pooled in it. I think it would work better against elbows..knee caps etc..even against the thigh. Felony to possess in California unless you are LE and I am not...anymore.

kBob
November 20, 2012, 03:37 PM
These are called "slung shot" in Florida law and they are among the specifically forbidden weapons under Florida law which may not be carried even with a CWL.

My wife formerly taught the section on Florida law for the NRA Personal Protection Program in the Gainesville area and her notes which covered this BTW were recommended by the NRA to other instructors in Florida. I taught the alternative to firearms section and always made certain to include this warning myself.

Unless you want a state supplied room with roomates named Big'un, Bubba, and Precious do not carry slung shot in Florida.

-kBob

rcmodel
November 20, 2012, 03:47 PM
Same here and a lot of other states too.
Called "Slung Shot" in Kansas law.

rc

conw
November 20, 2012, 05:06 PM
A slung shot is a piece of lead or a rock, wrapped or knotted in a rope or cloth. It may be a gray area when it comes to enforcement but a sap is not a slungshot.

http://www.gatling-gun.com/images/Monkey_Fist_Slungshot_cc.jpg

sidheshooter
November 20, 2012, 05:08 PM
I love the idea; I think some of the handmade slappers (including some beauties made by a fellow THR denizen) would be cool to have and lug around.

But definitely illegal to even own in my state.

Like Tommy guns and daisho, a good sap is a romantic (and effective) throwback to a different era.

Gordon
November 20, 2012, 09:42 PM
The king of all blackjack makers Foster(two brothers actually, one makes saps and one makes jacks) posts here once in a while. He makes the best IMHO.
Beavertail Saps if properly applied , not the edge hits, to certain places on the head is a fairly safe lights out in my and many others experience. Of course you may get a fatality once in a while-bad juju!:eek:
The jack however is extremely effective but there is a good chance of a depressed skull fracture and all that can bring :( .
here are some of my collection
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i203/gordonhulme/001-12.jpg
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i203/gordonhulme/002-5.jpg

Owen Sparks
November 20, 2012, 10:24 PM
The best saps were loaded with lead shot so that they would have the ability to knock someone out without risking a skull fracture or even leaving a mark. they worked on the same principle as a boxing glove by causing concussion to the brain from a closed head injury while spreading the force out over a large area on the surface rather than concentrating all the force on a very small area like billy club does.

You can make an improvised sap from a sock and a pound of coins.

rcmodel
November 20, 2012, 10:47 PM
Doesn't take nearly a pound of coins.

Thats a little too much "coin" in fact if you arent trying to cave somebodys skull in.

Heck, a sock and a new bar of soap worked pretty good.
As does a couple of rolls of quarters.

rc

Deltaboy
November 20, 2012, 10:52 PM
We need to get slaps back in LEO's and concerned CCW Citizens hands. One day of training would be enough and I grew up seeing them work and work well in bars and roadhouses I used to frequent as a teen and young adult.

rcmodel
November 20, 2012, 10:56 PM
But wouldn't that be the same as "Dissing" someone now?

I mean, you could get a Fo-Tay cap busted on you azz nowday slapping somebody with a sap!

If you didn't put them down for the count the first slap anyway.

rc

Gordon
November 20, 2012, 11:20 PM
Those 3 black #12 shot loaded smooth seamed saps weigh 8oz, 16 oz and 28 oz. respectively. You have to swing the 8oz real fast up against the cabeza of your target to get the lights out. It is an excellent bar sap.Lesser swings (but still good and fast) will get their attention even when they are the Lord's own drunk.
The 16oz one is a pretty standard old LEO sized one and a moderate professional style swing gets it done on the head knock out or the plexus stun.
The 28 oz Kong model if swung real hard to the top of the head of a large pig will cause it to go down so you can stick it ith no snapping teeth fuss!

Owen Sparks
November 21, 2012, 12:03 AM
There is really no safe way to knock someone out but a shot filled sap is safer than any hard object. Again, think boxing glove vs. brass knuckles. A solid punch with either can jar the brain and cause a knockout but the boxing glove leaves little surface damage and virtually no chance of a skull fracture.

Big_John1961
November 21, 2012, 02:28 AM
Just to clarify, I was speaking of collecting only. As for the potential lethality of them, no question a head strike could result in a death. But they are very effective at incapacitating an attacker; a strike to knee, arm or collarbone would drop most would be assailants like a bad habit.

Big_John1961
November 21, 2012, 02:30 AM
The king of all blackjack makers Foster(two brothers actually, one makes saps and one makes jacks) posts here once in a while. He makes the best IMHO.
Beavertail Saps if properly applied , not the edge hits, to certain places on the head is a fairly safe lights out in my and many others experience. Of course you may get a fatality once in a while-bad juju!
The jack however is extremely effective but there is a good chance of a depressed skull fracture and all that can bring .
Those are some awesome examples.

Big_John1961
November 21, 2012, 02:37 AM
I just think they are interesting weapons. Like someone above mentioned, they used to be standard carry for LEO's and were used quite effectively for crowd control or diffusing social situations. I understand they are still used by military personnel in some countries, like Canada.

Big_John1961
November 21, 2012, 02:39 AM
We need to get slaps back in LEO's and concerned CCW Citizens hands. One day of training would be enough and I grew up seeing them work and work well in bars and roadhouses I used to frequent as a teen and young adult
I think that's a pretty good idea. If guns are okay for CCW, why not impact weapons?

kBob
November 21, 2012, 08:53 AM
DO NOT confuse reason with the actions of legislatures.

DO NOT confuse dictionary, popular, or your own definitions of a word with the intent of the law and the use of a word by the law.

If you have a question about whether these or any other device are legal or not for carry, look it up in the statutes of your state and federal law and any other governing body you live under.

Besidesides my comments about the personal protection course earlier I also had a setion in Florida Law for Police when I was getting my AA with centralization in Law Enforcement at a Florida COmmunity COllege that meantioned illegal weapons and there they were. The class was taught by the area's assistant states attourney that would be prosicuting such violations. Then it was covered in a class on Issues in Modern Law Enforcement when I was getting my BS in Criminology at FSU.

There were examples of saps and blackjacks on a board of illegal weapons at the Law Enforcement training academy "North" near Tallahassee at one point.

If you would like to explain to an Florida LEO and to a Florida judge what makes you special and what makes you an expert on what "really" is a slung shot or not.....don't say you weren't warned.

-kBob

conw
November 21, 2012, 11:16 AM
DO NOT confuse reason with the actions of legislatures.

DO NOT confuse dictionary, popular, or your own definitions of a word with the intent of the law and the use of a word by the law.

If you have a question about whether these or any other device are legal or not for carry, look it up in the statutes of your state and federal law and any other governing body you live under.

Besidesides my comments about the personal protection course earlier I also had a setion in Florida Law for Police when I was getting my AA with centralization in Law Enforcement at a Florida COmmunity COllege that meantioned illegal weapons and there they were. The class was taught by the area's assistant states attourney that would be prosicuting such violations. Then it was covered in a class on Issues in Modern Law Enforcement when I was getting my BS in Criminology at FSU.

There were examples of saps and blackjacks on a board of illegal weapons at the Law Enforcement training academy "North" near Tallahassee at one point.

If you would like to explain to an Florida LEO and to a Florida judge what makes you special and what makes you an expert on what "really" is a slung shot or not.....don't say you weren't warned.

-kBob


I agree with what you're saying about knowing the law and not trusting an off the cuff analysis.

lemaymiami
November 21, 2012, 01:51 PM
Every now and then this same topic shows up and folks provide their opinions. I still own the two contact weapons that I carried on the street years ago. One is flat slapper, well shaped from where it rested in my back pocket and got sat on a whole lot more than anything else - the other a spring loaded black jack.

Two thoughts about these kind of weapons. The first is that anyone using one in a conflict risks a felony conviction.... The second is that the few times I personally used one it only raised the level of conflict (the folks I dealt with got very, very angry if hit by one). If you actually do hit someone to take them down hard you really do risk killilng them.... Down here in paradise the first annual MacDuffy riots were a direct result of someone being beaten into submission -that subsequently died from his injuries to the head area... machined metal flashlights were used in the MacDuffy case but the principle is the same......

I quit carrying them when I learned better tactics and developed the kind of self confidence that only comes from few years in police work. I also had more than a few encounters with folks that had to be physically subdued since the only other recourse would have been to do them such serious injury that you risked killing them. Here I'm talking about crazy or terribly intoxicated aggressive individuals that it might take a few officers to subdue... You haven't lived until you see someone hit in the head with a full stroke by a baton or blackjack and not only are they still standing but they want to get up close and personal as they object to being hit....

Collect them if you will. Carry or use one and you're getting into very dangerous territory unless you're defending your home from forcible entry....

bikerdoc
November 21, 2012, 03:24 PM
I never hit anyone in the head. A good slap to the clavicle, elbow, wrist was all I needed.

Gordon
November 21, 2012, 05:09 PM
Metal flash lights and batons swung by amped up multiple officers certainly can be deadly and not advisable.
Back in the less amped up officer days, and when my Uncle was an NYPD Gold Shield dick the beavertail sap was usually applied with a moderate and experentially aimed blow with the flat aimed at the lower back of head, if possible , and delivered by surprise surreptitiously ! If tht didn't work and things got combative it was aimed full force where ever you could get a hit, like ,elbows forearms, groin, face ect. The jack is much more effective for non head hits BTW and was carried for those that preferred such tactics.
I don't carry a sap anymore. The penalties for a slip up with a .45 are less in this state so it is a no brainer for me.

sidheshooter
November 21, 2012, 05:17 PM
As an aside, I see that the most recent issue of tac knives (march2013!) has a brief article on saps, as well as the custom coin purse variation, FWIW.

The article does go on to mention the temple (!) as one of the preferred target locations, which strikes me (no pun intended) as dangerously close to recklessly irresponsible, but it's worth a quick look if you find yourself killing time inside a borders or barnes & noble on black Friday...

Owen Sparks
November 21, 2012, 10:36 PM
Time to post this link again:

http://www.donrearic.com/sap.html

This is a short and worthwhile education on blackjacks and saps.

conw
November 22, 2012, 02:03 PM
Totally agree Owen.

As to whether or not to hit the head, or if it's irresponsible... I feel that's kind of a situational question. It's no more irresponsible to whack someone in the head than shoot them in a given situation. The tactics are determined by the situation, and in some situations, the sap or another impact weapon employed as lethal force can make more sense than the gun.

Big_John1961
November 22, 2012, 04:06 PM
Deleted

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