5.56 62 grains penetrator M855


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kestak
November 20, 2012, 01:44 PM
Greetings,

I was talking with a acquaintance coming back from Afghanistan this morning. He was talking that some of the insurgents are wearing body armour with plates:what: but the M855 rounds go through.:neener:

Does that mean if the enemy had M855 instead of the commie crap they use our sons would be more in danger? :cuss:

Thank you

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Dreamliner787
November 20, 2012, 02:26 PM
Just depends on various different factors, but the standard 7.62x39 "commie crap" as you called it is very devasting even with body armor. You have to take into consideration of the impacts that are in the non-armored areas of the body.

silicosys4
November 20, 2012, 02:41 PM
http://www.theboxotruth.com/images/16-23.jpg

This is what was on the other side of a level IIIa body armor shot with 7.62x39. Our boys need to keep their heads down over there, that's for sure
I wouldn't discount that commie crap, commies know how to kill people too....maybe better than westerners. Look at the 7.62x25....which will penetrate body armor MUCH more effectively than the 9x19.


http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot16_5.htm

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot29_3.htm

danweasel
November 20, 2012, 03:54 PM
A guy I knew when I was still in the army showed me his SAPI plate that stopped two 7.62x39s from across the room. He said it hurt.

But yeah, not all armor or plates are equal. Ask Dragon Skin, those (expletive deleted).

kestak
November 20, 2012, 04:18 PM
But does that mean the M855 goes through our boys plates?

MErl
November 20, 2012, 05:06 PM
But does that mean the M855 goes through our boys plates?

depends what they are using. This is a test done for police:
http://www.m4carbine.net/archive/index.php/t-32839.html

kestak
November 20, 2012, 05:17 PM
Thank you for the link. Very informative.

Sapper771
November 21, 2012, 01:04 AM
If they are the 10x12 "SAAPI" plates, then M855 will not penetrate.

d2wing
November 23, 2012, 12:33 AM
I was somewhat surprised that the .556 M855 out penetrated both 7.62 rounds. I wasn't surprised by the 12 gauge slug.

MTMilitiaman
November 23, 2012, 11:07 AM
The plates are capable of being much more effective than the soft armor.

Currently we employ Interceptor Body Armor, or IBA. This is the "soft" armor, or "flak jacket" that is standard issue. It has been upgraded several times over the years. I think it has a IIIA rating, which means it does pretty good against pistol and submachine gun rounds, and small fragmentation, but isn't going to do much to stop a high velocity rifle round, be it Commie crap or not.

The vest has pockets to allow hard ceramic-steel plates to be inserted in the front, back, and sides. These are called Small Arms Protection Inserts (SAPI). I think they are rated Level IV, which rates them to stop certain rifle rounds. There is also a thicker Enhanced-SAPI (E-SAPI) plates which offer increased protection against multiple rifle rounds and armor piercing ammunition.

I've seen an E-SAPI with two M118LR rounds (175 gr HPBT Match sniper round for the 7.62x51 NATO), four standard 7.62x39 ball rounds from an AK, and five M855 ball rounds from an M16A4 all on the same plate and not a single one penetrated. And my brother had a team leader in the Army that took seven rounds (count em!) to the back SAPI as he was coming into a room on point his first tour and didn't even realize he'd been hit until someone pointed it out to him after the engagement. Not one round made it through. Obviously, the plates are capable of offering decent protection. However, they are bulky and heavy. With just the front and back plates, the IBA will weigh around 30 pounds IIRC, and that's without the CamelBak, IFAK, mags and ammo, knives, batteries, and other junk the soldier or Marine is expected to hump around.

Double Naught Spy
November 23, 2012, 12:49 PM
I was talking with a acquaintance coming back from Afghanistan this morning. He was talking that some of the insurgents are wearing body armour with plates but the M855 rounds go through.

It is hard to know what "plates" they are using. Just being a plate doesn't make it very good ballistic protection. I can show you softer steel pistol targets that won't stop M855 or the older M193 ball ammo that is 7 grains lighter and doesn't have the tiny coat-hanger diameter steel penetrator.

I would not worry about the enemy getting M855 ammo. I would worry about them getting 7.62x39 AP ammo, which doesn't have a tiny steel rod, but a much larger steel core. Even then as noted, the US plates will handle some hits from it, but the soft armor isn't going to stop much in the way of military rifle rounds.

C-grunt
November 23, 2012, 01:43 PM
Our body armor works really well.

Ehtereon11B
November 23, 2012, 04:28 PM
I was talking with a acquaintance coming back from Afghanistan this morning. He was talking that some of the insurgents are wearing body armour with plates

What part of Afghanistan was he in? The areas I was in the heaviest armor they wore were heavy wool blankets, but that was to cover up their thermal signatures at night. Other than that it was man dresses everywhere.

SAAPI plates (the black ones) are not standard issue anymore. Neither are the IBAs. The current issue is the IOTV or Improved Outer Tactical Vest if I remember the acronym correctly. It is an improved IBA platform that offers more soft IIIA kevlar protection as well as more adjustment points for better fits. The new vest also has places built in to hold side (hard) plates to protect against flanking incoming. Pet peeve is the IOTV has a rip cord on the upper part of the chest that you pull to make the unit fall apart, designed for medics to get to wounds faster. Higher elevations are issued a plate carrier type armor which is very similar to the IOTV but no soft shell kevlar. Those 6 less pounds makes a huge difference when you are above 8000 feet.

The ESAAPI is a green plate that has a soft fabric around the plate. These improved plates are designed to take more abuse than the older SAAPI design. As well as making them more resistant to short drops since the SAAPI had to be replaced with minor drops even if no damage was present.

srawl
November 23, 2012, 07:53 PM
Im in Afghanistan right now and no, it wouldnt penetrate our plates, ive seen plates take 3 7.62x54r rounds and nothing went through,

Just an fyi, we dont carry the M855 ball any more over here, we have this A1 ammo now,

http://vagunforum.net/ammunition/army-new-m855a1-ammo-t5561.html

C-grunt
November 23, 2012, 07:54 PM
Im in Afghanistan right now and no, it wouldnt penetrate our plates, ive seen plates take 3 7.62x54r rounds and nothing went through,

Just an fyi, we dont carry the M855 ball any more over here, we have this A1 ammo now,

http://vagunforum.net/ammunition/army-new-m855a1-ammo-t5561.html
How is the A1 working out for you guys?

I've been a bit worried a out the increase in chamber pressure negatively affecting the rifles.

srawl
November 25, 2012, 08:38 PM
It seems to be doing the job well, not many complaints other than those who wouldnt really be happy with anything other than their caliber of choice, ie the 6.8, at least the army is showing it is listening to the soldiers by making this very costly change.

chris in va
November 25, 2012, 08:53 PM
I suspect the x39 they're using is the steel jacketed Russian/Chinese stuff.

NYH1
November 25, 2012, 09:36 PM
I can't help you with your body armor question. However, tell your acquaintance thanks for his service, same to all the others here that are or have served!

NYH1.

TheGloriousTachikoma
November 25, 2012, 10:12 PM
@ shane.rawlings, the last G&A 'Book of the AR-15' had an article with some very unkind things to say about the M855A1 round. What accuracy are you getting with it? What about wear on the rifles?

(sorry about the o/t)

HorseSoldier
November 25, 2012, 10:26 PM
How is the A1 working out for you guys?

I've been a bit worried a out the increase in chamber pressure negatively affecting the rifles.


855A1 is pretty much all I used during my recently concluded deployment -- I did not notice any significant issues with the round itself. Bigger issue was leaders who failed to educate themselves about the stuff (to include ignoring the note that came in each case) and thought you could switch back and forth between standard 855 and the A1 stuff without re-zeroing weapons.

C-grunt
November 25, 2012, 10:59 PM
855A1 is pretty much all I used during my recently concluded deployment -- I did not notice any significant issues with the round itself. Bigger issue was leaders who failed to educate themselves about the stuff (to include ignoring the note that came in each case) and thought you could switch back and forth between standard 855 and the A1 stuff without re-zeroing weapons.
Well that's about par for the course with Army brass. Ive done a decent amount of research on the A1 and the only real problem I have with it is the increase in chamber pressure. It might not be as effective as Mk318 on unarmored targets but I like the increase in penetration against hard targets. During my tours in Iraq, especially the invasion, we shot up a lot of cars and light trucks.

Ehtereon11B
November 25, 2012, 11:15 PM
That is an interesting development. During my OEF tour in 2010 we hadn't even heard of the A1 round and went through 855 almost as fast as .50 and 40mm. Hopefully I can get my hands on some to do some comparative testing of my own.

hardluk1
November 26, 2012, 08:31 AM
Seems like the M855A1 replaceing the M855 would be the main reason so much over the old ammo was on sale so cheap a year back. Looks like the new A1 would also have better down range balistic and tight group size than the m855.

40 rod
November 26, 2012, 05:41 PM
If i could only have one cartridge for everything from bunnies to moose. VBIED'S to varmits , tigers to taliban. it will be the m855. And the m855a1 sounds even better!

srawl
November 28, 2012, 04:39 AM
No difference noticed in accuracy, only a shift in the zero.

and though Im not as excited about it as 40 rod, I think it does the job well.

3twelves
November 28, 2012, 02:28 PM
Here is some penetrations test I did on 3/8" steel at 50 yards.

http://105.imagebam.com/download/6Yh0MmyXnGAP4F1HtA0GWQ/22299/222983432/5.56%203.jpg

http://101.imagebam.com/download/aWHEs9cq4EuEv2y_SyXxtg/22299/222983439/5.56%201.jpg

one of the penetrators got stuck in the steel.

The M193 did not go though, have more pics if anyone cares.

firesky101
November 28, 2012, 05:06 PM
What is the rating on that steel? Or is it just mild steel?

3twelves
November 28, 2012, 05:31 PM
What is the rating on that steel? Or is it just mild steel?
Not sure, found it on the range. Seemed harder than mild steel. The 5.45 and wolf 7.62x39 wouldn't go threw it either. 7.62 Nato violated it at 50 yards but not 100 out of a 16" barrel, it went through at 100 with a 22" barrel.

m193

http://103.imagebam.com/download/sge8Y13mQJ2NFrsjM9I_VA/22302/223014470/5.56.jpg

JustinJ
November 28, 2012, 05:51 PM
The 5.45 and wolf 7.62x39 wouldn't go threw it either.

Which 5.45? 7N6 or non-milsurp?

3twelves
November 28, 2012, 05:53 PM
Which 5.45? 7N6 or non-milsurp?
It was just the silver bear, I wanted to try the 7n6 but the plate vanished.

Double Naught Spy
November 28, 2012, 07:22 PM
Not sure, found it on the range. Seemed harder than mild steel.

How would you know without Rockwell testing? It wasn't significantly harder than mild steel. The difference in ammo may well be attributed to the weight of the ammo, 55 gr. vs. 62.

Based on the M193 ammo bumps, you have typical pistol target steel targets, NOT rated for rifles.

40 rod
November 28, 2012, 07:45 PM
just love that m855, It can bag a squirrel and leave enough for lunch, zip through a grizzly bears skull like it is butter, and has just enough penetration to knock those pesky jihadis off your buddies MRAP .

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