Selling firearms


PDA






evalero2
November 20, 2012, 01:02 PM
I generally consider myself up to snuff with firearms laws, but there are a few details that pop up now and then which this forum will hopefully help me answer.

I know I can sell a gun I no longer want privately. I also know that, in order to "deal" firearms, I need a license.

At what point do you cross the line from selling a gun or two to illegally dealing firearms? Is there a limit on the number you can sell(similar to cars)?

If you enjoyed reading about "Selling firearms" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Jon_Snow
November 20, 2012, 01:17 PM
There's no hard and fast rule. You aren't allowed to be "engaged in the business of" selling firearms. What someone would need to prove that you're doing that is up for debate. I would assume quanity, how long you own the guns before selling them, whether you fire them, etc all might matter.

evalero2
November 20, 2012, 01:38 PM
I can't stand how ambiguous some firearms laws are.

mr.scott
November 20, 2012, 03:04 PM
I've always been under the impression that selling more than 2 a month would be "dealing"
But even 1 gun could land you in the pokey if they can prove you bought and sold it to make a profit. It happens a lot, even here. We've all been low balled when trying to sell a gun here. I've seen posters buy and sell with in a day or 2.

smalls
November 20, 2012, 06:37 PM
I've always been under the impression that selling more than 2 a month would be "dealing"
But even 1 gun could land you in the pokey if they can prove you bought and sold it to make a profit. It happens a lot, even here. We've all been low balled when trying to sell a gun here. I've seen posters buy and sell with in a day or 2.

Not true. The ATF has a definition of being in the business, and it is located on page 7 of this: http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf

evalero2
November 20, 2012, 06:58 PM
Not true. The ATF has a definition of being in the business, and it is located on page 7 of this: http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf
Thanks for the link Smalls. Still pretty ambiguous, but its written to protect the average owner from being portrayed as a dealer.

smalls
November 20, 2012, 07:02 PM
Basically: are you making a living, or paying your bills by selling guns? Or are you buying and selling a few here and there?

Art Eatman
November 20, 2012, 09:00 PM
Selling all or part of a collection ("collection" as in "many"; not necessarily a large number of collectibles) of firearms which have been owned for notably longer than a few days or weeks is not considered as being in the business. Profit is irrelevant; it's the short-term ownership and resale which is pertinent.

Getting rid of safe queens is not seen as being in the business of dealing in firearms.

wv109323
November 20, 2012, 09:48 PM
You know you have crossed the line when the Feds show up with warrants. The definition Of" engaging in the business" is not clearly defined.

smalls
November 20, 2012, 09:48 PM
Art, I agree with your post.

But, there is nothing wrong with buying a gun, shooting it, and deciding to sell it the next day.

Or, buying someone else's collection (because you got a better price buying them all), then selling off the ones you don't care for.

Now, buying ten guns and selling all of them the next day, that looks suspicious.

BK
November 20, 2012, 11:16 PM
The definition Of" engaging in the business" is not clearly defined.
Sure it is.
921. Definitions
(a) As used in this chapter—
(21) The term “engaged in the business” means—

(C) as applied to a dealer in firearms, as defined in section 921 (a)(11)(A), a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms;

(22) The term “with the principal objective of livelihood and profit” means that the intent underlying the sale or disposition of firearms is predominantly one of obtaining livelihood and pecuniary gain, as opposed to other intents, such as improving or liquidating a personal firearms collection

Twiki357
November 21, 2012, 01:50 AM
To expand on this subject. I keep wondering how ATF (Or local law enforcement) would even know if a person were illegally dealing in firearms, other tham maybe a non-FFL pawn broker or some other type of business. If a non-FFL individual is dealing through private sales in FTF and/or gun shows there would not be any records to tip them off, with the exception of a few states like CA or if some of bloomburgs thugs were following you around. And if the person has an FFL in wouldn't be illegal.

MedWheeler
November 21, 2012, 06:30 AM
In reading the section quoted in post 11, I see no confusion.

oneounceload
November 21, 2012, 07:17 AM
To expand on this subject. I keep wondering how ATF (Or local law enforcement) would even know if a person were illegally dealing in firearms, other tham maybe a non-FFL pawn broker or some other type of business. If a non-FFL individual is dealing through private sales in FTF and/or gun shows there would not be any records to tip them off, with the exception of a few states like CA or if some of bloomburgs thugs were following you around. And if the person has an FFL in wouldn't be illegal.

They attend gun shows looking for folks - if they start to see you repetitively at the same gun shows with tables full of new Glocks that you say are from your private collection, you will arouse their suspicion and interest

aka108
November 21, 2012, 08:56 AM
I really don't want the buyer of any guns I sell to know me nor do I want to know who the buyer is. I always sell a firearm through a dealer. It costs me 15% to do so but at least I can pretty much know the buyer has been checked out and many own a firearm legally. The dealer generally gets a higher price for the arm than I could in a private sale so the 15% is most likely a wash.

Art Eatman
November 21, 2012, 09:44 AM
The OP's question has been answered and the thread has begun to wander off the path...

Enuf.

If you enjoyed reading about "Selling firearms" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!