Never let down your guard regarding SAFETY


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HKGuns
November 20, 2012, 10:11 PM
I shook myself up a bit last night and I still get a bit of a sick feeling, knowing that I nearly missed causing a really stupid ND.

I pulled my AR out to mount a light. (I always store my AR with a magazine inserted in but no round chambered.)

I put the light on and started messing around with the light when I noticed it was on "FIRE" so I "ALMOST" pulled the trigger thinking it was empty, but stopped myself. Something in the back of my mind told me not to assume I left it as I usually leave the rifle and I hadn't cleared it prior to working on the light mount.

As it turns out I had taken the rifle out in the woods the last time I used it and did not clear the rifle before stowing. I removed the mag and racked the charging handle back and out pops a green tipped 5.56 round. This shook me up pretty bad and I can't stop thinking about what "might" have happened.

Never assume anything and always check before you mess around. This was a disaster waiting to happen. I pride myself on being very safe around firearms, but I very narrowly missed having a horrible ND.

I feel very foolish and stupid. Never again.

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Double Vision
November 20, 2012, 10:21 PM
Thanks for the reminder to treat every firearm as loaded.
You're not stupid. You made the right call and you're safe. Well done.

hq
November 20, 2012, 10:35 PM
Make a habit of it: always and every time you pick up a gun, or when one is handed to you, remove magazine / open cylinder and check yourself that the chamber is empty. Even when someone has done that seconds before handing you the gun.

It can get a bit comical, sometimes when I tinker with guns with my son we'll just agree that there are no live rounds near the guns, all of them have been verified to be empty by both of us and we actually CAN stop constantly checking the chambers every time guns change hands. Just to stop the constant racket of slides and bolts going back and forth - it can get annoying after about half an hour. :)

HKGuns
November 20, 2012, 10:48 PM
Make a habit of it: always and every time you pick up a gun, or when one is handed to you, remove magazine / open cylinder and check yourself that the chamber is empty. Even when someone has done that seconds before handing you the gun.

I normally do just that...which is why it is so embarrassing. I guess I got too comfortable in my home with the knowledge I always store it empty.

Cdigman
November 20, 2012, 10:50 PM
Been there, done that. Very stupid of me, my excitement over a new rifle overpowered basic safety. Got my Colt 6920, and a bunch of Magpul goodies, got it all fixed up, and was in the process of doing a function check, was looking down the sights in a safe direction, had my finger on the trigger, was about to "dry-fire" it, and FROZE. The Magpul magazine that I had put in wasn't the empty one, but was topped off, and when I'd yanked the charging handle, of course, I'd chambered a live round. Thankfully, I caught it in time. The four basic rules are there for a purpose, if you follow them, and slip up and break one, the other three will prevent tragedy.

sayak
November 20, 2012, 11:30 PM
Done it. Blew a hole in the floor actually. Now I am insanely careful about checking and re-checking my rifles. I am so phobic, I even HAVE to probe the chamber just to make extra sure. I will never make that mistake again realizing how it could have been a fatal mistake.

dc.fireman
November 21, 2012, 12:16 AM
HK - I would say 'good job' to you, simply because you did get that 'feeling', and didn't write it off as paranoid, or amateurish. You did the right thing - you chamber checked it. And once you did it, it demonstrated to you why we ALWAYS do these things. I'd say everything played out, for the simple fact that you did what you were supposed to do. I would simply look at this as a reinforcement training exercise.

FIVETWOSEVEN
November 21, 2012, 01:33 AM
I store my AK loaded, that way I know that it IS loaded.

Ehtereon11B
November 21, 2012, 01:33 AM
I treat myself like I have Alzheimer's. I left my .40 and .45 downstairs, unloaded, on a chair to run upstairs to get a battery. Came back down and basically couldn't remember if they were unloaded. Checked the slides anyway.

Warp
November 21, 2012, 01:36 AM
I shook myself up a bit last night and I still get a bit of a sick feeling, knowing that I nearly missed causing a really stupid ND.

I pulled my AR out to mount a light. (I always store my AR with a magazine inserted in but no round chambered.)

I put the light on and started messing around with the light when I noticed it was on "FIRE" so I "ALMOST" pulled the trigger thinking it was empty, but stopped myself. Something in the back of my mind told me not to assume I left it as I usually leave the rifle and I hadn't cleared it prior to working on the light mount.

As it turns out I had taken the rifle out in the woods the last time I used it and did not clear the rifle before stowing. I removed the mag and racked the charging handle back and out pops a green tipped 5.56 round. This shook me up pretty bad and I can't stop thinking about what "might" have happened.

Never assume anything and always check before you mess around. This was a disaster waiting to happen. I pride myself on being very safe around firearms, but I very narrowly missed having a horrible ND.

I feel very foolish and stupid. Never again.

I hate to say it, but....DUH


PS: Chamber flags are useful.

K1500
November 21, 2012, 09:44 AM
[I store my AK loaded, that way I know that it IS loaded.

Not to advocate this for everyone, but this is true. I store my cc handguns in a Gunvault in their holsters loaded. I truly believe this is 'safer' as there is no doubt about the condition of the gun. Too many folks do things with 'unloaded' guns they wouldn't dream of doing with a loaded one.

juanjo322
November 21, 2012, 10:12 AM
I shook myself up a bit last night and I still get a bit of a sick feeling, knowing that I nearly missed causing a really stupid ND.

I pulled my AR out to mount a light. (I always store my AR with a magazine inserted in but no round chambered.)

I put the light on and started messing around with the light when I noticed it was on "FIRE" so I "ALMOST" pulled the trigger thinking it was empty, but stopped myself. Something in the back of my mind told me not to assume I left it as I usually leave the rifle and I hadn't cleared it prior to working on the light mount.

As it turns out I had taken the rifle out in the woods the last time I used it and did not clear the rifle before stowing. I removed the mag and racked the charging handle back and out pops a green tipped 5.56 round. This shook me up pretty bad and I can't stop thinking about what "might" have happened.

Never assume anything and always check before you mess around. This was a disaster waiting to happen. I pride myself on being very safe around firearms, but I very narrowly missed having a horrible ND.

I feel very foolish and stupid. Never again.

Thank you for sharing and great reminder..

We were out hunting a couple of years ago me and my old man and we were done for the day, had a savage model 10fp with floor plate and I cycled every round out or so I thought, I cycled it once more and no round came out I pointed it to the ground away from us and squeezed the trigger and BOOM there was a live round. This experience has embedded in my head safety, I will never store a firearm loaded or unloaded with the bolt in the rifle, for my semis I always remove the magazine and cycle the bolt lock it in place and visually inspect the chamber, for my pump actions I always check the tube, chamber and never close the chamber I place the lock cable in place. For my lever actions I never use more than 3 rounds including the one in the chamber.. And at the end of the hunt I cycle the lever 6 times.. And visually inspect them before stowing away. All my bolt actions that have detachable magazines I remove the magazine and take out the bolt from the action, and visually inspect, for the ones with a floor plate I always release the floor plate to remove all rounds from the closed bolt down and then remove the bolt and visually inspect the chamber.. It is a bit more work, but to me after with my experience, I don't mind it at all. Safety first!

beatledog7
November 21, 2012, 11:06 AM
K1500,

There is some logic to the thought that if we're going to treat all guns as loaded, then they might as well be really loaded. <inserting tongue in cheek> It's the same logic that says if your wife thinks you're cheating on her, and you can't convince her that you're not, you might as well go ahead and cheat since it won't change her treatment of you anyway. <removing tongue from cheek>

When you choose your carry gun for the day, do you chamber check it to make sure it IS loaded? My carry gun stays loaded until it goes to the range. I know it's loaded, but I still check it each time I strap it on.

K1500
November 21, 2012, 12:34 PM
That's true. I find that carry guns get 'messed with' a lot less when stored loaded, holstered, and locked in a safe.

A peek at the loaded chamber peep confirms it is still loaded. I carry with Comp Tac IWB holsters, and there is no need to take the gun out of the holster to put the holster on or off. The trigger is never exposed. Bottom line, a gun cannot go off unless someone presses the trigger, which can't happen if the trigger never sees the light of day.

My hunch is many ND's happen when loading and unloading. Take that twice daily occurrence off the books and the chance of an ND drops. Not for everyone, but the system works for me.

SSN Vet
November 21, 2012, 04:56 PM
To the OP....

Step one of ANY gun cleaning, smithing, tinkering, dry firing, etc.. should always be to clear/check clear the weapon. Say a prayer of thanks that you didn't cause a bad ND, learn from it, and move forward, all the more sober for the experience.

My hunch is many ND's happen when loading and unloading. Take that twice daily occurrence off the books and the chance of an ND drops. Not for everyone, but the system works for me.

I whole heartedly agree...

The best move I made after my first few months of carrying was to keep my carry pieces in condition 1 all the time.

When they are off my belt, the holstered pistol goes in the gun vault, still in condition 1.

This eliminates a LOT of uneeded handling... and I never have to wonder "what condtion did I last left it in.

SlamFire1
November 21, 2012, 06:19 PM
You did good.

Always doubt and always check.

I read about an negligent discharge that Mussolini, the Fascist leader of Italy had.

He loved to hunt, was in his hunting lodge with a large collection of sycophants (suck up’s). Mussolini had a double rifle, thought it was empty, but his Gamekeeper had loaded the thing for him but did not notify El Duce. Mussolini was pointing the rifle at his mistress, he must have thought it was fun making unarmed people cringe by pointing guns at them. She got mad, grabbed the barrel and pushed it towards the floor. Mussolini tripped off the trigger and blew a hole in the floor. Opps!

Moral of the story, someone may have loaded the thing when you were not around.

Always doubt and always check.

SwampWolf
November 30, 2012, 07:10 PM
Back in the late sixties, I was visiting a college friend (Gary) at night, in his home in Missouri, when around 10:00 another friend (Vern) came to the door to return a borrowed Ruger No. 1 varmint rifle, chambered in .22-250. Shortly after Vern left, Gary began fiddling with his rifle while I was watching a television show. Suddenly, the loudest sound I've ever heard or ever hope to hear stopped the world as I knew it. Gary's wife came rushing into the room where we were at, absolutely terrified. It became apparent that Vern had returned the rifle loaded. Fortunately, Gary had practiced the first rule of gun safety and had the rifle pointed in a safe direction. No harm was done-except for my hearing.

After the smoke cleared and the excitement subsided, I said to Gary, "That's about the dumbest thing someone could do; returning a loaded firearm without saying a word." I'll never forget Gary's response: "No dumber than a fool not checking his gun to see if it was empty before he ever pulled the trigger." He was so right.

Andrew Wyatt
November 30, 2012, 07:29 PM
Pulling the trigger should not be part of the clearing process.

K1500
November 30, 2012, 07:32 PM
You don't own a Glock, do you?

Warp
November 30, 2012, 07:37 PM
Pulling the trigger should not be part of the clearing process.

Sometimes it is. As mentioned, guns like Glocks need to be dry fired to disassemble.

Some people also prefer to store some guns de-cocked, and the gun doesn't have a de-cocker.

You also might pull the trigger as part of a function check.

But still...really ought to double check that it's unloaded before pulling the trigger, even in a safe direction.

Rubber_Duck
November 30, 2012, 09:09 PM
Last month I was at a gun show looking at a pair of Sig P220s and after checking the chamber and fondling the first one the owner handed me the second Sig and as I locked the slide back a live JHP round came flying out! The look on the owners face was priceless and I dropped the mag which still had live rounds in it. He was speechless. I told him he's lucky someone with less trigger discipline didn't walk up and ask to dry-fire the pistol as it would have been more than a 'click.'

Warp
November 30, 2012, 09:10 PM
That right there is why gun shows use zip ties on all guns.

Cmiller21b
November 30, 2012, 09:25 PM
You would'nt believe how many NDs we have in a combat zone! Soldiers coming in pull the may and leave the one in the chamber. We did quite a few courts martial while I was in Afghaniatan. It happens all over the world! You have'nt lived until you have someone ND a. 50 BMG next to the chow hall!!! I almost crapped myself! :-)

Rubber_Duck
November 30, 2012, 10:02 PM
That right there is why gun shows use zip ties on all guns.

Small town gun show, much less oversight. Zip ties were brought by the vendors that chose to use them rather than mandated for all guns like at the bigger or more organized shows.

dcarch
November 30, 2012, 10:32 PM
You would'nt believe how many NDs we have in a combat zone! Soldiers coming in pull the may and leave the one in the chamber. We did quite a few courts martial while I was in Afghaniatan. It happens all over the world! You have'nt lived until you have someone ND a. 50 BMG next to the chow hall!!! I almost crapped myself! :-)
And this is precisely why we all need to be good citizens and surrender our guns to the government, because they are "the most professional ones in the room." (re: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeGD7r6s-zU) :D

Andrew Wyatt
November 30, 2012, 11:26 PM
Sometimes it is. As mentioned, guns like Glocks need to be dry fired to disassemble.

Some people also prefer to store some guns de-cocked, and the gun doesn't have a de-cocker.

You also might pull the trigger as part of a function check.

But still...really ought to double check that it's unloaded before pulling the trigger, even in a safe direction.

I absolutely agree with everything you're saying, but all of those circumstances happen after the gun is cleared.

I think idpa and ipsc have created a situation where a very limited and specific set of behaviors that are only suitable for the square range in a match are used in circumstances where they can cause injury or death.
the pirpose of snapping a gun downrange in a match is to ensure that the gun is absolutely empty. if the gun is still loaded, the only harm done is to the berm.

In a home or business, there is no berm, and that round lands somewhere.

if you want to store a single action gun with the hammer down, there are ways to do it that make an ND less likely.

Warp
November 30, 2012, 11:28 PM
I dislike that IDPA thing as well. I was in a carbine/pistol match recently that basically used IDPA rules (or so I understand, I've never done IDPA) and that resulted in everybody walking around with rifles that had no safety on, and a closed bolt. I'm not fond of being swept by guns with the bolt closed and the safety off, you know?

Andrew Wyatt
November 30, 2012, 11:35 PM
theres a whole other discussion to be had about hot ranges vs cold ranges.

i will say that people are probably too polite when it comes to correcting the muzzle discipline of others. sweeping people is a behavior that if left too long without correction leads to serious problems.

Warp
November 30, 2012, 11:38 PM
theres a whole other discussion to be had about hot ranges vs cold ranges.

i will say that people are probably too polite when it comes to correcting the muzzle discipline of others. sweeping people is a behavior that if left too long without correction leads to serious problems.

True. So many ways to handle a range.

Though to be fair to the other guys most of the sweeps were rifles being set on a table, or picked back up, muzzle discipline was good overall, and trigger finger discipline was exceptional. I just don't like it...and I don't like looking down at my rifle to see the safety off...and I can't put it on.

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