Older West German P220 nicer than new sig's?


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jimbombo
November 20, 2012, 09:27 PM
Are the older west german Sig's better quality, or nicer in any way than the newer Sig's? What would the value of a West German Sig p220 from 1992 in very good condition with 2- 7 rnd mags, with no box or papers be?

Thx all. Sorry I don't have any pics!
PS- if I look at this gun I know to check the slide rails for wear, but anything else other than overall appearance, and bore to look for?

Thanks all...

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chris in va
November 20, 2012, 10:19 PM
I had a 1995 with the folded slide.

'Nicer' is a nebulous term, more like 'essential'. There is simply nothing extra with the older guns...rails, finishes, doodads. They are a Sig in their purest form.

That doesn't mean I liked mine, but just how I perceive things. I bought mine in 2006 for $500 and sold it last year for $450. Just not enough demand for a single stack da/sa around here I guess.

9mmepiphany
November 20, 2012, 11:00 PM
The two things I like about the older folder slide 220 over the milled stainless ones are the flat plane in front of the ejection post that directs the eye to the front sight and an internal extractor that works flawlessly

Bovice
November 20, 2012, 11:52 PM
The finishes are weak on the older SIG pistols and they don't have accessory rails, but I don't use weapon mounted lights so it doesn't matter for me. I also don't care if it's pretty or not. They tend to turn brown. You can Robar the slide if that bothers you. Make sure to take notice of the hammer. Since you said it's from 1992, it probably has a spurred hammer rather than the present day round one. These pistols absolutely must be decocked using the decocker, otherwise it bypasses the firing pin block mechanism even after you've lowered the hammer. If the pistol were to be decocked manually by easing the hammer forward and the pistol is later dropped on its hammer, the gun will discharge. The old P220s with the rounded hammers have a hammer rebound spring to fix this "glitch". Although if you use your decocker properly it does not make a difference. The round hammer also indicates that the frame was beefed up to better handle a steady diet of +p ammo. I do not use +p and that shouldn't affect your decision. Just be aware of it.

The internal extractor design should only be trusted on the folded slides.

JTQ
November 21, 2012, 10:33 AM
Here is the beginnings of a long term review the late Mr. Camp started.

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/LongTerm%20Observations%20and%20ShortTerm%20Hopes-SIGSauer%20P220.htm

As a Sig outsider looking in, and somebody whose primary guns are 1911's and S&W 3rd generation auto's, I find it odd to see the longing for the days of stamped slides and a pinned in breach face. Imagine the up roar in the 1911 world if somebody decided to make a 1911 with a stamped slide and pinned in breach face.

wgsigs
November 21, 2012, 01:27 PM
As a Sig outsider looking in, and somebody whose primary guns are 1911's and S&W 3rd generation auto's, I find it odd to see the longing for the days of stamped slides and a pinned in breach face. Imagine the up roar in the 1911 world if somebody decided to make a 1911 with a stamped slide and pinned in breach face.
Actually, I can't as I am a 1911 outsider and know nothing about the 1911 world. ;) I guess the perceived balance of the 1911 pistol was not affected when they went to the stainless slide.

I think some of the appeal of the older SIGs is nostalgia - belief that workmanship was better in the good old days. Also, there is the opinion, right or wrong, of many in the SIG world that quality has suffered at SIG in recent years with the cost-cutting implemented by Cohen - mim parts, reliability issues with some of the new guns released, marketing hype over actual engineering.

9mmepiphany
November 21, 2012, 02:54 PM
As a Sig outsider looking in, and somebody whose primary guns are 1911's and S&W 3rd generation auto's, I find it odd to see the longing for the days of stamped slides and a pinned in breach face.
It isn't so different from 1911 owners preferring pistols without 1) external extractors, 2) full length guide rods, 3) bushingless barrels, 4) short triggers, 5) arched mainspring housings, 6) forward slide serrations, 7) firing pin safety block...all of which were considered product improvements when first introduced.

Onmilo
November 22, 2012, 01:06 AM
When it comes to P220s I think the Newer guns are better than the older versions.
Newer guns balance better, have better surface finish, are smoother in function, have more reliable internals, are more accurate, and everything works as intended.

Effigy
November 22, 2012, 06:18 AM
I don't know how it compares to the old ones, but I have a newer P220 and it's worked perfectly for me. I think the quality concerns with new SIGs are more rumor than anything.

mes228
November 22, 2012, 07:27 AM
Well, I'll be the odd man out. The Sig P220, in my opinion, is the best Sig ever as far as accuracy and reliability. Also the stamped, folded slide was superior to the machined slide in function. Hard to sell folded tin (grin) over machined steel though. I know that every one I've owned was flawless in function and very accurate. Sometimes "change" for the sake of change is not a real improvement. It's a marketing gimmick or manufacturing short cut. The old Sig's were very good pistols. Just my opinion and your mileage may vary.

VAgunner
November 22, 2012, 08:24 AM
The two things I like about the older folder slide 220 over the milled stainless ones are the flat plane in front of the ejection post that directs the eye to the front sight and an internal extractor that works flawlessly

+1 for the win. LOL The extractor is key for me! Still not a fan of the external even though it seems to run well.

Walt Sherrill
November 22, 2012, 09:21 AM
I've had a number of SIG P220s over the years, and now have a P220 Super Match. I can't imagine a better-made (in terms of fit, finish, function) P-220 than the one I own now. It's a very nice gun.

...Also the stamped, folded slide was superior to the machined slide in function.

Curious: what functional differences did you notice or experience? My first 220 was one of the older ones and I've had a combo of old and new since then. I've never noticed a difference that I could attribute to slide design/construction.

oldironsights
November 22, 2012, 09:33 AM
Just bought this one yesterday.
The beauty of this one really caught my eye.
Looks nearly new except for the "Smiley" & some internal finish loss due to firing.
It is a Browning import from 1977 as the "HH" proof mark indicates.
http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/3139/earlysig001.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/526/earlysig001.jpg/)
http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/6458/earlysig003.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/696/earlysig003.jpg/)

While my 2001 P220 45auto is nowhere near as nice, my 45 has no play between the slide & frame.
This early 9mm P220 has some noticeable play between the frame & slide.
The magazine heel catch insures that the magazine will never unintentionally separate from the weapon.
All of my German issue police & military pistols have heel catches for the magazine & are single stack; from 7.65 to 9mm.

rodinal220
November 22, 2012, 12:24 PM
What Bovice said,good advice.Since the Kimber crew started running SIG stateside their reliability dipped.Some teething problems with the milled slides on some models at first but sorted out.I like mid to late 90s Sigs with the folded slide and removable breech block.My folded slide SIGs have given me flawless performance.Don't care for the use of MIM parts but thats personal issue with me.

9mmepiphany
November 22, 2012, 01:20 PM
It is a Browning import from 1977 as the "HH" proof mark indicates.
Very nice pistol and a great example of an early generation 220. The things for folks to pickup on are, from the front, the:

1. integral front sight blade
2. contour of the slide above the "Browning" marking
3. roll pin behind the ejection port
4. full coverage checkering on the grip
5. sharp spur hammer

These have all changed during the evolution of the 220 (SIG doesn't list them as generations)

wheelyfun66
November 22, 2012, 01:28 PM
Nothing but zero malfunctions, reliable brass extraction and ejection, tough finish, tight fit and finish, and superb ergonomics from my US made 220 Compact!
http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t497/spec4towle/IMG_0808.jpg
http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t497/spec4towle/IMG_0820.jpg
http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t497/spec4towle/IMG_0801.jpg
Heavy sucker to conceal carry....but I love it!

schmeky
November 22, 2012, 10:51 PM
My "newer" Exeter Sig was a dog. The "older" heel release, folded slide P-220 I have now is superb.

VAPOPO
November 23, 2012, 12:02 AM
Sig Classic series armorer here, The newer guns are a lot easier to work on but the older guns seem to not need any work other than the occasional replacement part, Usually springs and roll pins but the occasional internal extractor will break. It is also getting harder to get some parts for the older guns.

Doug DeGraves
March 28, 2014, 09:07 AM
Hey guys, I have Browning BDA SIG Import, I think it's form the 70s. But what is a folded slide? Not a target gun by any means but I can't get a bad group with it, whether I shoot as fast as I can or slow with the rest, or over my shoulder with a mirror. I like it so much I'm considering getting a more modern version, like the Elite Match or the S.A. Super Match. Opinions? Maybe even the Scorpion if I'm in a "tactical" mood.

Didn't there used to be one with a compensator from the factory?

Doug

dook
March 28, 2014, 10:02 AM
Personally I love Sig P220's and P228's. Since I live in Grizzly country, I often carry a revolver and these Sigs operate similar to a revolver, i.e. no external safety and double action. I go back and forth between revolver and semi-auto with a minimum of confusion.

I prefer the pre-Cohen Sigs. When Cohen took over he gradually began muddying the waters by not supporting older models, short-cutting metalurgy, and offering a wide array of different models instead of concentrating on perfecting the few as previous management did.

The Cohen Sigs are still pretty good handguns in comarison to most other handguns offered today, just not as good as the German ones.

SwampWolf
March 28, 2014, 10:18 AM
Also the stamped, folded slide was superior to the machined slide in function.

I'm not following this. You might prefer a folded slide SIG pistol for different reasons but, having lots of experience with both variants, I have never seen any difference between the two types in terms of functuality. I'd be interested in perusing any evidence you have supporting your claim (though this thread is getting a little gray in the beard).

1KPerDay
March 28, 2014, 10:28 AM
I prefer the older ones in feel. The new ones shoot just fine. They feel top-heavy to me. And I don't like rails on my SIGs.

Stony
March 28, 2014, 10:55 AM
I've owned Sigs from the Brownings to the current Scorpions, and their quality has never wavered in my opinion. I hear talk of stronger and weaker areas on their pistols, but mostly consider it hearsay as nobody seems to come up with substantial proof, just "they say" sort of stuff.
Any firearm is capable of a mechanical problem just as other mechanical things, but Sig's seem to be some of the best quality out there, bar none.

bannockburn
March 28, 2014, 11:00 AM
I had a Browning BDA in .45 and the gun was both extremely reliable and incredibly accurate. It was also a very easy pistol to shoot, that is it was very ergonomical and a particularly soft recoiling pistol.

PabloJ
March 28, 2014, 11:00 AM
Are the older west german Sig's better quality, or nicer in any way than the newer Sig's? What would the value of a West German Sig p220 from 1992 in very good condition with 2- 7 rnd mags, with no box or papers be?

Thx all. Sorry I don't have any pics!
PS- if I look at this gun I know to check the slide rails for wear, but anything else other than overall appearance, and bore to look for?

Thanks all...
I would buy SIG 227 instead. The grips have excellent ergonomics there are no panel screws to get loose, sights that have new tritium inserts, and magazine holds 10 cartridges. Honestly I would not want SIG 220 at all.

Old Dog
March 28, 2014, 03:20 PM
I like 'em all. Frankly, although the weight and balance of the more recent production models is noticeable to me, I find something to appreciate about with every model SIG ... my newer SIGs are every bit as reliable as my older West German and German pistols. I shoot the West German 226 and 228 alongside their newer brothers and appreciate the differences.
http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh577/Beau360/001_zps0638235f.jpg (http://s1252.photobucket.com/user/Beau360/media/001_zps0638235f.jpg.html)
Latest addition, the P-227 -- every bit as reliable as my 220, but holds 3 more rounds in an exceptionally ergonomic and accurate package.
http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh577/Beau360/45s004_zpsb7db5c00.jpg (http://s1252.photobucket.com/user/Beau360/media/45s004_zpsb7db5c00.jpg.html)

Blue Brick
March 29, 2014, 05:26 AM
Just bought this one yesterday.
The beauty of this one really caught my eye.
Looks nearly new except for the "Smiley" & some internal finish loss due to firing.
It is a Browning import from 1977 as the "HH" proof mark indicates.

Nice!

Blue Brick
March 29, 2014, 10:07 PM
http://sigtalk.com/sig-sauer-pistols/12499-stamped-slide.html

Onmilo
March 30, 2014, 05:50 AM
Wow this thread is old.
A year and a half later and my opinion hasn't changed.
The West German 9mm guns were better than the .45s
It took American experience to make the .40 & .45 Sig pistols really shine.

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