Has Remington lost their touch?


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Muzzlelover
November 21, 2012, 02:49 PM
Just curious,but everywhere but I look on the internet,and in magazines everyone is slamming remington's rifles(except their custom shop offerings) and their quality control.Is it true that remington has lost their craftsmanship and accuracy?

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Inebriated
November 21, 2012, 03:08 PM
Yes. It's widely blown out of proportion, but their quality control has certainly suffered in recent years.

Ridgerunner665
November 21, 2012, 03:10 PM
Yes its true...has been for a few years now.

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Flatbush Harry
November 21, 2012, 03:13 PM
I have four Remington 700s acquired in the last 4 years, 2 SPSs, one XHR and one XCR II. All are great shooters with no malfunctions. I appreciate all you other guys buying the bad ones.

FH
NRA Certified Instructor
NRA Life Member
1946-vintage Curmudgeon

jogar80
November 21, 2012, 03:21 PM
Same here. I've bought several new ones in the last couple years. All superbly accurate, all function flawlessly.

Kachok
November 21, 2012, 03:24 PM
Yep! In a recent multi rifle accuracy comparison the Remington 700 finnished dead LAST! That is a long fall from being the most accurate mass produced out of the box rifle in the world. Last three Remingtons I owned were garbage I won't touch another one, saw Rem 700s with walnut stocks on clearence the other day for $400, I laughed and kept on walking, not even worth that......SAD. The worst part is I used to be a diehard Remington fan :(

mshootnit
November 21, 2012, 04:18 PM
what I don't like about Remington is the CDL stocks, recoil pads and the sps stocks. I don't like those funky grip and forearm areas I just like traditional checkering and well fitting recoil pads. I also did not care for my 700 bought in 2001 for several other reasons. The chamber was anything but tight (though safe). The bolt had slight wobble when locked up. Accuracy was only so-so for a heavy barrel.
I wish they would just make a nice walnut checkered stock with decent pad like the "classic" model but with a thicker black pad and just do regular production with it in all calibers. And really pay attention to the things that matter like squarely machined actions/ bolts and chambers with minimal headspacing.
I liked the circa 1992 223 BDL "varmint special" with 24" sporter barrel and the old trigger. Those things could definitely walk the dog.

jmr40
November 21, 2012, 04:39 PM
I don't think they have lost anything. A Remington today is probably as good or better than a comparable Remington made at any time.

But I do see 2 problems, one is real, the other is perception.

The real problem is that while Remington is just as good as ever, other companies have surpassed them with better guns, and often better prices. While I used to be a devoted Remington fan, this has lured me away from Remington.

The perception problem is that years ago Remington rifles were all highly polished blue and walnut. They still make those guns, but the budget guns with matte finish and cheap plastic stocks are the ones people see the most. They want to compare those budget guns with yesterdays top end guns and complain about quality. If you compare apples to apples I don't see much difference.

jmr40
November 21, 2012, 04:58 PM
I don't like about Remington is the CDL stocks,


like the "classic" model but with

I liked the circa 1992 223 BDL

I hear this complaint from time to time, but don't understand why. The CDL is a copy of the "Classic" style of the 1920's through the early 1950's. It is simply a slightly trimmer Classic stock with a black forend tip. Best looking, most functional stock Remington has ever put on a rifle.

The BDL is a futuristic modern design from the space age 1950's-70's when folks wanted huge cars with tailfins and lots of chrome. Weatherby started the trend back then and Remington followed with their BDL. I've always thought they were gaudy, flashy, heavy, ill fitting and ugly. Ruger brought back a sensible stock design in the late 60's and eveyone has copied that style ever since. Remington discontinued the BDL, but has brought it back in limited chamberings and in short runs. The BDL and Weatherby are the only 2 companies still using this modernistic design. I say let it die along with disco, bell bottoms and most everything from that era.

C-grunt
November 21, 2012, 05:33 PM
Ive had a couple Remington's since the take over. Had a SPS Tactical and a 700 LTR. Both were fantastic rifles. Several of my friends have bought Remington recently and haven't had a bad one yet. I do believe that Remington's QC has gone down but I still think they put out a good rifle, especially if you buy the higher end rifles instead of the SPS.

conrad427
November 21, 2012, 06:36 PM
what are the quality control problems i hear so much about? I started buying remingtons when winchester stopped production and i could not get my 100 year anniversary 30-06. I have bought five, a .17 fireball, .260, a .221 fireball, and two .264's. all shot well. the .221 even has the goofy bolt lock hoobis. When the boys wont buy polished blue and fine walnut the company wont make many of them. Lower priced remington rifles while ugly compare well to the other company's low priced ugly rifles in my opinion. you cant have presentation walnut and what reminds you of Royal Blue for the cost of synthetic and some spray on coating.

lovethosesooners
November 21, 2012, 06:54 PM
In my opinion and my own experience, no, they have not at all lost their touch.

I have 4 Remington's, 3 of which were purchased over the last 2 years, and every one of them have been excellent (700 CDL 30-06, 750 30-06, and 870 12 gg home defense).

The only caveat I will add, is the 2 rifles did have trigger work which my 2 Winchesters, 3 Savage rifles have had no need for...whatsoever.

Kachok
November 21, 2012, 08:17 PM
I do believe that Remington's QC has gone down but I still think they put out a good rifle, especially if you buy the higher end rifles instead of the SPS.
I had a top notch 700 CDL 7mm Rem Mag and the stupid thing would not chamber a round :( My hunting buddy ignored my warning and paid stupid money for an R1, that was the only 1911 I have ever seen jam over and over and over with every kind of ammo we feed it, even after a factory rebuild! His cheap $300 Firehawk was a thousand times better. If that is not QC issues I don't know what is. Had I seen one decent firearm out of the last four duds I might cut them a break, but four bad ones in a row is enough to cure me for good. Sticking to Savage, Winchester, Tikka, Sig, and Springfield now.

BigN
November 21, 2012, 08:24 PM
I have several newer 700's, I'm thinking 4 of them are less than 3 years old. Just as accurate and dependable as my old ones. They're all heavy barrelled varmint rifles if that makes a difference. I haven't seen any fall off in accuracy or dependability here.

M-Cameron
November 21, 2012, 08:39 PM
one thing you have to keep in mind is the cost of manufacturing and inflation.


in the 1960s many of the processes to make the remington 700 were done by hand, this lead to a firearm with a much better fit an finish than ones cranked out by machines...

...but this came at a cost, in 1966 a remington 700 cost $150, adjusting for inflation thats a touch over $1,000.......for a grand they better be a damn good rifle.



today many of the processes are automated, this makes the firearms cheaper and more easily produced, and today you can buy a remington 700 for $550....



so if you are comparing a a rifle from the 60's to a modern rifle, of course the quality is going to seem higher, and it should, because you are comparing a $1000 rifle to a $550 rifle.



now could remington ramp up their quality?....sure they could..... but look at who their primary target is, its mostly hunters, and last i checked most hunters arent willing to pony up a grand for a rifle when a perfectly servicable rifle can be had for half the price.

Casefull
November 21, 2012, 09:24 PM
Remingtons are great, so are Kimbers. I am not sure what some folks judge quality on. It is impossible to build a machine that all humans will like. Obviously lemons occur. In most cases though it is the human side of the equation that is the problem. Some people just cannot shoot...they tend to be the ones that have the most trouble with firearms.

SilentScream
November 21, 2012, 09:33 PM
Remingtons are great, so are Kimbers. I am not sure what some folks judge quality on. It is impossible to build a machine that all humans will like. Obviously lemons occur. In most cases though it is the human side of the equation that is the problem. Some people just cannot shoot...they tend to be the ones that have the most trouble with firearms. It's typical internet nonsense. One guy writes about how his 700 won't "shoot" it then spreads to a bunch of forums/boards and the next thing you know you get threads like this one wondering why Remington's QC is garbage, when in fact the guns they're producing today are just as good as the ones made during the "Golden age" in the 50's-60's

txcookie
November 21, 2012, 10:45 PM
my CDL is a 2012 and it is everything I ever dreamed ofin a rifle! 1/2 inch groups at 100 and it will do better than that. 2 hogs and a deer this yr and I hitem were I wanted too every time. No complaints!!!!

joustin
November 21, 2012, 11:04 PM
The 770's are garbage. I have seen probably 50 people with feeding issues etc at the gun shop I work at.

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sleepyone
November 21, 2012, 11:12 PM
The 770's are garbage.

I was hunting with a guy who had one last weekend. I was not impressed with the fit and finish or even the way it sounded when working the bolt and other moving parts. He had major problems getting the magazine seated, working the bolt, the safety etc. Don't know if it was the rifle or him or a little of both. I think Savage offers a much better rifle in the "budget" class.

r1derbike
November 21, 2012, 11:35 PM
Are any parts for anything Remington outsourced to China now? Just a curious question...ducking and running.

Jdillon
November 22, 2012, 12:04 AM
A couple of years ago I purchased a CDL SF in 300 WSM. Out of the box it wouldn't group as well as I had hoped considering the cost. Was ready to unload it but decided to have a little work done it. Score High in ABQ floated and pillar bedded the action as well as crowning the muzzle. I also installed a Timney trigger. Total investment was about $400 but well worth it. When I am having a good day, it would shoot 1/2" MOA with reloads. Due to the slim barrel profile, groups will string as the barrel heats up but not an issue with a hunting rifle. My friend has the same rifle in 270 and out of the box it is one of the most accurate production rifles I have ever shot. So who knows...maybe mine was made on a Monday.

cacoltguy
November 22, 2012, 12:57 AM
I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with Remingtons I just think there is a lot more competition now. Keep in mind that at it's core, the 700 was designed to be a cheap, easy to produce mass production rifle, not a high level piece of craftsmanship. The sheer volume of them out there and plethora of after-market support means that many gunsmiths and builders have taken the basic platform to higher levels, but doing so doesn't come cheap. Many companies now make rifles as good and better than most Remington 700's at comparable price levels. I've never owned a 700, so I can't speak to any recent quality control issues but when looking to put together a high quality long range rifle I didn't really consider them. There are just better rifles out there that are better designed.

VAPOPO
November 22, 2012, 01:56 AM
The 700 will always shoot. Most are sub 1" rifles with the right loads and with a little work all are. The last couple I have owned needed the crown recut and the bolt lapped for even engagement and were fabulous shooters afterward.

I do not own a single Remington at the moment having forsaken big green for some more refined products from Finland However I would not think twice about buying back the .223 VLS or the .243 VLS Or for that matter the 788 in .243. All were fine rifles that did their job untill I could afford better guns.

Kachok
November 22, 2012, 12:07 PM
I do not own a single Remington at the moment having forsaken big green for some more refined products from Finland
Which one Sako or Tikka? BTW I agree :D

rodinal220
November 22, 2012, 12:10 PM
Remington has had a QC issue for several years now.With their acquisition of Marlin this is even more evident.:barf:

joed
November 22, 2012, 12:57 PM
I've owned Remington for years, the latest one being 2 years old. Do I think they're junk? Heck no! As they come from the factory they aren't accurate though. Very few of their rifles even have free floated barrels and the triggers are junk in my opinion.

But my last 700 had a stock and trigger change and will shoot with the best of them. Given a choice between Remington and Winchester I'll take Winchester though.

goldie
November 22, 2012, 01:14 PM
The only thing i dont like from them is their golden bullet 22lr. lots of duds & ftf's.

1858
November 22, 2012, 07:55 PM
The only thing i dont like from them is their golden bullet 22lr. lots of duds & ftf's.


You need to try the current GBs then ... if you have "duds & ftf's" there's something wrong with your firearm ... and that's a fact!!

I will say this, I own three 700s all of which have been extremely accurate and reliable from day one. However, I will also admit that I won't be buying any more 700s since I much prefer Kimber rifles these days with CRF, a large claw extractor, a three-position safety that blocks the firing pin and locks the bolt closed, and no plunger ejector in the bolt face. This is my preference these days after spending quite a bit of money to add Sako extractors to my 700s.

I've bought three 870s this year including a VERSA MAX Tactical, an Express Tactical A-TACS and an Express Tactical and all three have been excellent. I've shot a number of R1s too and even though I wouldn't buy one, they're reliable enough.

ridgerunner1965
November 22, 2012, 09:35 PM
i was talking to my nephew today at tukey dinner at my moms. seems he recently purchased a remington tactical shot gun new of some sort,i didnt catch or recognize the model, maybe he said 887? anyway, the first time he shot it, he tried some different factory loads and then loaded up a round of 3 inch buckshot. which the gun was rated for as well as 3.5 inch shells. when he touched it off the rear stock broke completely off the action and the action jammed up tight. he was not amused as he just paid a hefty price for this brand new gun. he did say rem kindly offered to ship him a box and fix it.

WVRJ
November 22, 2012, 09:55 PM
I've been shooting Remington rifles since the 70's.I have owned somewhere around 25 Model 700's and variations thereof.Most all of them needed trigger and bedding work to get them to shoot to their potential.My 1911R1 has yet to malfunction in any way,and is a well made pistol.I haven't seen any great drop in quality when I compare the newer Remingtons to the older ones.But they have had periods of time over the years when it seems like they are rushing things and not producing what's expected of them.Maybe there's something going on with them,maybe not.I have bought rifles from other manufacturers,and it's pretty much universal that the more you invest,the better quality you're gonna get.But there are better educated and more knowledgeable experts than me all over the internet.

Flatbush Harry
November 22, 2012, 10:30 PM
I'm gonna jump back in here. I currently own 4 Rem 700s, 1 Win M70, 3 Rugers (a No. 1A and 2 Ruger 77RSIs) and a Savage 116. I have had zero malfunctions with any, had sub-1 MOA accuracy with all out to 300 yards, and total satisfaction with all. I chose (because I don't like whippy, injection molded stocks, to replace the factory stocks on two SPSs and my XCR II. That said, every one of my Rem 700s shot to less than 1 MOA with factory stocks and set-up...I've posted my targets on this board.

Remington makes several levels of rifle from ADL, SPS, BDL, CDL, Sendero, XCR II, etc...to compete at different price points. I read here that lots of folks don't quite get this business strategy, but, for some reason, perceive that these different product types shout poor QC. I think many consumers don't quite get how business, product design and product features relate. None of my 9 rifles, in various calibers, cost more than $800 OTD, while all have been superlative performers, relative to what performances were like from the '60s forward.

It seems we have an issue of expectations on the one hand and abilities in conflict on the other. Remmy produces a product that does well as do the other manufacturers whose products I have purchased. I have been very pleased with all. I have to ask as to the experience levels of the complainers here...do you really achieve superior performance with other manufacturers, or are you echoing some of what you read just to echo some of what you read?

Harry
Certified NRA Instructor
NRA Life Member
'60's vintage Curmudgeon

conrad427
November 22, 2012, 10:36 PM
i posted earlier and have been reading the posts. while i like remingtons, the guy who saw four duds in a row is quite troubling. I am waiting for the mega conglomerate that seems to own remington and all the other brands to turn out to be a secret company owned by sorros. Just waiting for them all to be shut down. Just kidding

VAPOPO
November 22, 2012, 11:19 PM
Which one Sako or Tikka? BTW I agree

Both

VAPOPO
November 22, 2012, 11:22 PM
Which one Sako or Tikka? BTW I agree

Both A T-3 in 7mm-08 and a SAKO 75 Varmiter in 22-250 both excellent pieces of equipment.

BigN
December 1, 2012, 03:30 AM
I have a 770 in 270. As someone mentioned above, it feels junky, clanky, and cheap, the bolt rattles and it is ugly. I have to say though, it shoots great and is accurate as any other. It's not a problem banging it around in the woods. I got it cheap and I'm glad I have it. A 270 with 110 gr hollow points does magical things to a coyote at 50 yards :evil:

GWARGHOUL
December 1, 2012, 06:17 AM
The BDL is a futuristic modern design from the space age 1950's-70's when folks wanted huge cars with tailfins and lots of chrome. Weatherby started the trend back then and Remington followed with their BDL. I've always thought they were gaudy, flashy, heavy, ill fitting and ugly. Ruger brought back a sensible stock design in the late 60's and eveyone has copied that style ever since. Remington discontinued the BDL, but has brought it back in limited chamberings and in short runs. The BDL and Weatherby are the only 2 companies still using this modernistic design. I say let it die along with disco, bell bottoms and most everything from that era.


I couldn't DISAGREE more.

To me, the Weatherby (Vanguard Sporter Deluxe or higher grade), or a nice Remington 700 BDL IS the quintessential hunting rifle.

I think the Weatherby looks a slight bit nicer.

They may be heavier, and you may feel bad dinging them up with use...

But they sure look good. That means a lot to me, I guess maybe because of my guitar days..

sansone
December 1, 2012, 08:03 AM
last night I sold a new 700 BDL "custom deluxe" and when I opened the box to get the serial # I couldn't put it down. The customer asked if the drool was included

MCgunner
December 1, 2012, 08:24 AM
Wow, you guys sure buy a lot of rifles. I own 3 bolt action hunting rifles and consider that extravagant. I don't know about the new ones cause my old 722 in .257 Roberts still puts 'em into 1/2" at 100 yards. I own a 90s M7 in .308 that puts 'em in to 3/4". I don't see that more accuracy is necessary in a deer rifle. Hell, I've won local club bench rest shoots with the 722 and a Bushnell scope, no BR rifles allowed, only sporters. I seem to hit deer with it pretty well. It's bone stock, as is my M7, but I do handload for 'em.

Bushpilot
December 1, 2012, 08:35 AM
I don't see Remington quality as having changed all that much, maybe a little drop but not a lot. I think Remington's bigger black eye has come from their association with Marlin whose quality has dropped like a rock. At the same time Savage has cut into Remington's market with rifles that are cheaper to manufacture but still shoot as well as most Remingtons do. In the past Remington did the same thing to Winchester that Savage is now doing to them.

MCgunner
December 1, 2012, 08:45 AM
But, my Savage is fugly. :D

Clayne_b
December 1, 2012, 08:51 AM
I only have 1 Remington It is a SPS varmint .308 It is a newer one and is bone stock.

Im happy with it. although I will be replacing the trigger and stock soon to make it more comfortable for me to shoot.

5 shots 500 yards.

http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii294/Clayne_b/1104121520a.jpg

MCgunner
December 1, 2012, 09:57 AM
Jeez, Clayne, that's great shootin'! My SIL has the SPS in .308 and it is VERY accurate, too. I prefer my little M7 for hunting, though. First 3 shots are 3/4 MOA, good 'nuf for gubment work, and the gun is light, short, and handy. :D

Just going off experienced folks like Clayne b, I don't think Remington is suffering much now days. I ain't really needing a new rifle, though, and I would touch that cheapo they make, but love the 700 series. I think they still offer a classy, yeah, beautiful gun for a decent price in the BDL series if you want some looks with your performance. Savage is a nice gun, but it's just plain butt fugly. I own a 110 and it shoots fine, but it sure is picky about what bullet it likes. It's a 7 mag, 1 MOA gun (after free floating) with either a 150 Sierra Game King or Nossler 160 partition. It HATES every 140 I've tried in it. I haven't tried anything over 160 grains in it, figure to use the partition if I ever get to hunt something tougher than a hog or deer. The gun was CHEAP, I'll give it that! Savage is the best dirt cheap gun going IMHO, but I prefer the Remington 700 series for a bit more money.

floorit76
December 1, 2012, 10:25 AM
I have an sps tactical in 223, and an sps varmint in 308. No complaints with either. Both have had, or will have bedding, free float, and trigger work. But what can't be improved upon? There are more aftermarket goodies for the 700 than most other brands combined. If you want a top of the line 700, spend alot up front for a custom shop, or spend a little up front and add what you like.

Kachok
December 1, 2012, 10:04 PM
Another one to add to my Remington horror stories, my co-worker decided to get into deer hunting this year and bought a new SPS 700 tactical 308, he calls me over the other day and tells me that his rifle won't even cycle factory rounds properly, I politely inform him that he needs a better rifle. He now hunts with his new Browning A-BoltII and could not be happier. I do not know a single person in real life that has a post Apr 07 Remington that has not had major issues with it, if you think their QC has not suffered due to CCM you need to wake up, that makes five failures in a row by my count.

floorit76
December 1, 2012, 10:07 PM
My tactical is 1 year old, and my varmint is brand new. Both work fine.

1858
December 1, 2012, 11:29 PM
I do not know a single person in real life that has a post Apr 07 Remington that has not had major issues with it

I know WAY more Remington buyers than you (I guarantee it) and the problems you talk of simply aren't showing up here. I bought three Remington shotguns this year all excellent, I also bought an R1 and a 750 for a friend and both are fine. I guess you're on some kind of crusade based on how you keep going on and on an on and on about your Remington experience in every Remington related post. You really don't have a clue about Cerberus either.

For the record, I own three 700s but won't be buying any more. Not because of any quality concerns but simply because I prefer the features of Winchester type actions.

godale
December 1, 2012, 11:34 PM
a couple of thoughts.first off all i am not sure remmy really decined maybe savage just got better and stepped it up along with other brands? i believe marlin was declining even before the buy out. also people are carried away with the 770 it is not and never will be a 700.the 770s compettion would be a mossberg atr or a axis or perhaps a stevens 200 to compare it with a 700 is crazy. buy the way most of those 770s will do their jobs kill animals. do i think their is better choices than the 770 for the price?of course but that dont make all remmy stuff bad. i have a model 7 in 243 that will do 3/4 for me all day.i also have a savage in 30-06 that will do that too but unlike the remmy the savage is ammo sensitive it likes fed fusion or hornadays where the remmy will eat wally ammo al day

Kachok
December 1, 2012, 11:53 PM
I know WAY more Remington buyers than you (I guarantee it) and the problems you talk of simply aren't showing up here. I bought three Remington shotguns this year all excellent, I also bought an R1 and a 750 for a friend and both are fine. I guess you're on some kind of crusade based on how you keep going on and on an on and on about your Remington experience in every Remington related post. You really don't have a clue about Cerberus either.

For the record, I own three 700s but won't be buying any more. Not because of any quality concerns but simply because I prefer the features of Winchester type actions.
Oh I know all about Cerberus, I worked for Chrysler then they owned us (I still do). For the record let me list the issues of these last five Remington firearms that I and my friends have had issues with.
#1 Would not chamber a round (My beautyful 700CDL 7mm Rem Mag)
#2 Feeding/Accuracy issues (also mine)
#3 Horrible rusting problems (700 ADL 7mm Rem Mag, at leased that one shot good while I could still cycle the bolt)
#4 Constant jamming with all types of ammo, even after factory rebuild (My best friend's Remington R1 1911)
#5 More feeding problems (my co-worker's brand new 700 SPS 308)
If you expect me to believe that their QC is up to par you can sell that hog somewhere else, I used Remingtons for many years before they sold out and the new ones are nowhere near as good. I would buy a 1980s model long before I would look at a NIB 700!
Maybe it is just really really bad luck, but I won't be wasting another penny on any Remington firearms!

1858
December 1, 2012, 11:59 PM
Oh I know all about Cerberus, I worked for Chrysler then they owned us (still do).

You know nothing about Cerberus and their interest in Freedom Group. Your past history with Cerberus and Chrysler explains a lot though. Chrysler made crap long before Cerberus came along. Maybe you know all about that.

1858
December 2, 2012, 12:01 AM
If you expect me to believe that their QC is up to par you can sell that hog somewhere else,

I made it clear that I won't be buying any more 700s but unlike you I'm objective about it. You're so bitter about Cerberus that you can't see straight.

Kachok
December 2, 2012, 12:08 AM
I made it clear that I won't be buying any more 700s but unlike you I'm objective about it. You're so bitter about Cerberus that you can't see straight.
Yeah they screwed up our QC too! Good thing Fiat/UAW bought them out or the Chrysler name would be gone forever.
I try to remain as objective as possable, but when you see piss poor product over and over again you cannot help but notice. I now warn all my friends to stay away from all Remington firearms, though I still do use some of their reloading products (core-lokts still shoot good and kill deer like they always have, and my pet load for my 06 uses Remington primers)

Dthunter
December 2, 2012, 10:41 PM
yes, QC has been an issue AT TIMES.

I purchased a 700,XCR Tactical in .308 two years ago. The rear pair of scope base holes were drilled off center. I had to use a set of Burris rings (leupold windage adjustable style). With the ring inserts. This barely allowed me to get my scope centered (parrallel)with the bore! My scope has just enough windage adjustment to allow for windage adjustments to about 25MOA.

Its rediculous when a brand new high end Tactical rifle has this kind of problem!!!

My next Remington Rifle was a 700Sendero in 7mmRem Mag. The bolt is not very smooth at all, but the silly thing shoots inside .850" at 100 yards consistantly! (All Reloads mind you).

It seems like its just the luck of the draw.

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