whats so good about mosins?


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bigdipper
November 21, 2012, 09:02 PM
I always see people talking about how much they love mosins so im thinking if i see one at the gun show im going to on saturday ill pick one up because they a relativly cheap and the ammos not a bad price either. But i would like to know whats so good about them and why every one loves them. Any info would be helpful
Additional ?: what are the nagant revolvers just a revolver that was standard with a mosin rifle or what

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M-Cameron
November 21, 2012, 09:03 PM
I always see people talking about how much they love mosins so im thinking if i see one at the gun show im going to on saturday ill pick one up because they a relativly cheap and the ammos not a bad price either. But i would like to know whats so good about them and why every one loves them. Any info would be helpful

seems like you answered your own question.

Gunnerboy
November 21, 2012, 09:08 PM
watched one of mine get run over by a road grader, i than went picked it up and fired it...... id like to see a modern age plastic/aluminum gun do that.

Badlander
November 21, 2012, 09:12 PM
They must be great rifles. No matter what someone is looking for. someone will recomend A mosin. From squirrel hunting to dedicated benchrest rifle.

TrickyDick
November 21, 2012, 09:15 PM
Mosins are not just awesome because they're cheap, but the fact that they're in the .30 cal range is good, and most of all (for me) is the historical signifigance of it. I mean, you're getting an original piece of military hardware, that has seen fighting since 1891, been through countless wars and conflicts all over the planet. Maybe the actual rifle that you buy may have not seen combat, but millions just like it has, and they all operate the same. Milsurp rifles are the backbone of gun ownership (IMO) I'm sure everyone at some point just had to have an original rifle from long ago sitting in their safe, Mosins just happen to be abundant and awesome. I would say it's just a must have for any firearm enthusiast.... In fact, i'm thinking of picking up a Nagant Revolver...just because..

Casefull
November 21, 2012, 09:18 PM
They are popular because there are a lot of folks who do not care about accuracy or machined parts which fit together...also relatively inexpensive. For me I would rather have fewer firearms than more, poorly made firearms. We are going socialist so might as well buy a socialist designed and manufactured firearm.

josiewales
November 21, 2012, 09:23 PM
It's fun, cheap, ammo's cheap, good for hunting just about anything, reliable, loud:evil:, recoils not bad. And it looks cool. What more do you want? Oh, and I do have one.:)

morcey2
November 21, 2012, 09:26 PM
I've got quite a few and I'm probably a little biased. I think they're very underrated in many ways and overrated in a few. With a few exceptions, they're reasonably accurate. Some of the exceptions are wildly innacurate, but others are tack drivers. Finns especially.

The 7.62x54R can do pretty much anything that a 30-06 or 308 can do, although bullet selection is more limited.

To be revised and extended because I hate typing on an I-pad.....

Matt

OldMac
November 21, 2012, 09:37 PM
Cheap, powerful, reliable, cheap, simple, tough, and best of all, cheap.

SilentScream
November 21, 2012, 09:44 PM
It's like that old Chevy/Dodge/Ford pickup you see trundling down the road, yeah it's not be the sexiest set of wheels on the road and it's got some rust and dings & dents, but it will get the job each and every time.

TexasPatriot.308
November 21, 2012, 09:51 PM
proven rifles with a cult followin, if thats all you got, hunt with it. I just happen to be lucky enough to own some great hunntingg rifles, may get one some day for the hell of it.

Sock Puppet
November 21, 2012, 09:52 PM
Carbine=Fireball. Do you need another reason?

Most everything else has been covered, but this thread could go on and on and on....

TurkeyOak
November 21, 2012, 09:54 PM
They are cheap, loud, historic, fun to shoot, and a hoot.
Did I mention cheap.
I used to take my .30-30 to the range to shoot but I usually leave it in the safe and take my $99 Mosin instead. It is $0.20 versus $0.75+ to shoot and VERY satisfying to shoot.
My Marlin is a better rifle, and the first one I'd grab, but the Mosin is fun.

Savage99
November 21, 2012, 10:02 PM
That Russian rifle is a significant part of history. It was the rifle that they beat back and defeated the nazis.

Many brave people from that country put their lives and fate in their hands and that rifle was the tool they used.

Russia is the largest country on earth because they can fight!

http://porkchopplatoon.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/Mosin-1-600-px.jpg

Unka-Boo
November 21, 2012, 10:19 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXwBeoRAWrA&list=UUi0lcE0DgtL-_t-EgV0JaFQ&index=13&feature=plcp


This was this year's "Classic Battle Rifle" match at our local Practical Rifle competition. We do this every August, while the match is open to anything, it centers around rifles "in service before 1946". There are a couple of us with Mosins in this vid, I'm at 6:32ish.

I've shot just about every WW2 era bolt gun in this match, took 1st in the "manually operated" category with a 2A1 two years ago and 3rd with a K31 5 years ago....fun, fun stuff.

All of us were shown the "tilt the top round up and push with it" trick after this stage ( as you can tell we were all struggling with charging )...felt DUMB after seeing how easy it was to load after that...:banghead:

gojuice101
November 21, 2012, 10:37 PM
watched one of mine get run over by a road grader, i than went picked it up and fired it...... id like to see a modern age plastic/aluminum gun do that.

I have to ask: how or why? Maybe I'm the only one, but I just can't picture a viable scenario in my head where my gun would end up in front of or under a road grader.

CraigC
November 21, 2012, 10:55 PM
whats so good about mosins?
Nothing, they're cheap and that appeals to some folks. Nowhere close to being in the same league as the 1903 Springfield, Krag-Jorgensen, Mauser 98, M1 Garand, etc..

As for historical significance, they were the perfect rifle for a conscript or thug army until the AK-47 came along.

bainter1212
November 21, 2012, 11:16 PM
One reason I admire them is their ridiculous simplicity. Even a novice can disassemble and reassemble a Mosin. Sometimes simple is more reliable. With proper cleaning, a Mosin is probably THE MOST RELIABLE military bolt gun there is. Keep in mind these were made for illiterate, uneducated farmboys (and girls, in the red army). Also can be manufactured with a minimum of machinery. When its 40 below, muddy, snowing or raining, the trucks and tanks passing you throwing up mud, and you can't count past your fingers, you're gonna want a Mosin.

HDCamel
November 21, 2012, 11:26 PM
What other rugged, decently accurate, reliable, fun, historical, and just generally cool rifle can you get for a C-note (give or take)?

SgtGenDanbo
November 21, 2012, 11:44 PM
Mosin Nagants are certainly great rifles. I own most of the standard issue rifles from WWII (minus the Arisaka and 03' Springfield) and the Nagant is one of my favorites. It doesn't shoot the most accurate, isn't the most well made, but dang it's a lot of fun to shoot and will never fail you. For the price of the rifle and ammo it just simply can't be beat. Plus holding one in your hands and thinking of all those guys that relied on one just like it during Stalingrad or Kursk makes your heart skip a beat. I also have the Finnish M-39 variant and in my opinion there's not a better bolt-action out there. It won't hurt the wallet too much, just get one and find out for yourself ;)

happygeek
November 21, 2012, 11:45 PM
Additional ?: what are the nagant revolvers just a revolver that was standard with a mosin rifle or what


The M1895 Nagant revolver was developed by the Nagant brothers out of Belgium, the same ones who contributed to the development of the Mosin rifle. It's rather unique in being a gas seal revolver. When you manually cock the hammer or begin to pull the trigger in double action the cylinder is pushed forwards to close the gap with the barrel, which naturally makes the double action trigger pull really, really heavy. It's not bad at all on single action though. It's also the only firearm ever made in 7.62x38R (the unique case aiding in the cylinder to barrel seal). It has a loading gate as the cylinder doesn't swing out, and you have to eject & then load the rounds one at a time.

You can get one for only $100, which is pretty cool since it means you can get the Soviet's WWII issue rifle & sidearm for only $200. I've shot a fair amount of 32 S&W Long through mine, which is considerably cheaper than 7.62x38R, and mine is actually pretty accurate with 32 S&W hollow points.

http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x297/fdhs_runner/Firearms/IMGP0015.jpg

nathan
November 22, 2012, 12:11 AM
Spend a little more and get the best on the Mosin design, the Finn M 39. You wont be disappointed.

Kachok
November 22, 2012, 12:24 AM
What is so great about a Mosin? Good question, I will let you know when I figure it out :D I am less then impressed with them, accuracy is functional within normal hunting ranges but far from spectacular. The stock is crude and the trigger is gritty as sandpaper, the models I have shot are all long bulky and heavy, not something you want to stalk hunt with for sure, but it is one tough gun no doubt about it, built to last for a hundred years of abuse. It does not come close to my top 10 list but if I were on a super tight budget I would take one of those over a Rem 770 or some of the other budget guns out there.

lefteyedom
November 22, 2012, 12:26 AM
Their Price

sDot
November 22, 2012, 12:30 AM
I love my mosin. I think it's one of my favorite guns to shoot.

morcey2
November 22, 2012, 12:31 AM
I've got quite a few and I'm probably a little biased. I think they're very underrated in many ways and overrated in a few. With a few exceptions, they're reasonably accurate. Some of the exceptions are wildly innacurate, but others are tack drivers. Finns especially.

The 7.62x54R can do pretty much anything that a 30-06 or 308 can do, although bullet selection is more limited.

To be revised and extended because I hate typing on an I-pad.....

Matt

Extension:

The 7.62x54R can do pretty much anything that a 30-06 or 308 can do, although bullet selection is more limited. They aren't as accurate as the average 1903, but they did what they were designed to do. If you expect the fit and finish to be the same as a K98k Mauser, you'll be disappointed. Oh, wait. No you won't. If you get non-wartime examples of each, they're comparable in fit and machining. If you compare late wartime examples, I'd take the mosin. It was not designed as a 1/4 MOA custom benchrest rifle and comparing it to one is intellectually dishonest. It's a battle rifle. It's supposed to be able to hit a man-sized target with reasonable accuracy from 25 yards to 500 yards. The man size target is usually a man. Most of them are average battle rifles. Just like 1903's, K98k's, M24/47's, Carcano's, etc. Some disparage them because they don't live up to some contrived standard to which they were never designed.

Being chambered in a rimmed round has its own set of challenges, most notably rimlock. That's where a properly working interrupter comes in. If it's working and adjusted correctly, it's almost impossible to get rimlock. The round isn't quite as good as the 8x57 or 30-06, but beats the heck out of 303, 6.5 & 7.35 carcano, and a couple of other standard rounds of the time. The split rear receiver ring makes mounting a scope in the traditional manner somewhat complicated to say the least.

As for history, most of them on the market now are refurbished M91/30s. They have lost some of the history in the refurbishment process, but it's still fun to think about what kind of action they saw. I have two Finn Captured M91/30s. Both of them seem to be random assemblages of various and sundry parts from different manufacturers and even country's. The 1933 Tula has a finn-spliced stock where the buttstock half is from an Austrian M91 chambered in 8x50R. The cocking piece is a Chatterault. The bolt body is a very early izhvesk. There are several arsenal repairs in the stock. Like all finn capture rifles, it's definitely been used in combat. They couldn't afford to not have them in battle. The actual Finnish produced rifles are some of the most accurate battle rifles ever made. I'd put them up against anything including SMLEs, Garands, 1903s, and Mausers in accuracy. The finns didn't actually make any receivers, but used purchased, captured, stolen, etc receivers and bolts from wherever they could get them. They made and commissioned their own barrels and some of them are still used in competition (M28-76).

I've got a Hun M44 that has 1956 and StUlen scratched into the magazine. I'm positive it was used in the Hungarian revolution. There's almost no way that it wasn't. I also have Hun M44 that looks like it was sealed up in a box and was essentially brand new when I bought it. Many variations.

As for 'Mosin Nagant', they don't exist. It's a Mosin. The 'Nagant' is a pistol. Sergei Mosin designed most of the rifle, but the magazine was an adaptation of a Nagant design. It was never called a Nagant until it was imported into the US.

I think they're great rifles to get people started in firearms. The carbines are _very_ loud and have awesome muzzle blasts, especially at dusk.

Kind of rambling, but it's late. Some people whine, but when you understand what the mosin was intended for, it's a very fine rifle.

ETA: Yes, the triggers are lousy, but nothing is perfect.

Matt

Kachok
November 22, 2012, 12:36 AM
I would not say that the 7.62x54 can do anything a 30-06 will, 308 sure, but I have never seen a mosin throw a 240gr bullet 2400fps. The 06 is in a different class with it's heaviest bullets.

VPLthrneck
November 22, 2012, 12:53 AM
They are a fun gun to shoot, what other reason does one need to own one (or three as I did). I got rid of mine since I was more accurate with my other old gun (an Enfield No1MK3), but I did have a blast shooting them.

caribou
November 22, 2012, 02:08 AM
Only accurate, reliable, accurate, rugged, accurate rifles are interesting........and they are accurate.

Mosins are interesting, because only accurate rifles are.

morcey2
November 22, 2012, 09:25 AM
I would not say that the 7.62x54 can do anything a 30-06 will, 308 sure, but I have never seen a mosin throw a 240gr bullet 2400fps. The 06 is in a different class with it's heaviest bullets.

That's not what I said, but it'll do push 220 grain bullet at 2400 fps. I doubt whatever is on the receiving end of that will notice the 20 grain difference.

Matt

thralldad
November 22, 2012, 10:37 AM
My '52 Polish M44 is awesome! Tight action and accurate with irons! It'will never be a sniper weapon but hogs give up all hope!

CraigC
November 22, 2012, 11:08 AM
That's not what I said, but it'll do push 220 grain bullet at 2400 fps. I doubt whatever is on the receiving end of that will notice the 20 grain difference.
A 220gr what??? I'm no .30-06 fan but the 7.62x54R does not even come close. Bullet selection is much, much more limited, as are rifles chambering it. So unless I can buy a new boltgun chambered in 7.62x54R and tune it with a 2lb trigger with readily available scope mounts and shoot sub-MOA, then no, it won't do everything the .30-06 will do. Can you even get brass cases for it without paying $1 each for Lapua or Norma???

morcey2
November 22, 2012, 11:35 AM
A 220gr what???


Hodgdon and Lee both list 220 grain loads at 2400 fps.


I'm no .30-06 fan but the 7.62x54R does not even come close. Bullet selection is much, much more limited, as are rifles chambering it.

I already said that bullet selection was more limited, but it's far from non-existent.



So unless I can buy a new boltgun chambered in 7.62x54R


http://www.molot.biz/product-e/ko91-30.php


and tune it with a 2lb trigger


http://timneytriggers.com/sunshop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=50


with readily available scope mounts


http://www.rocksolidind.com/


and shoot sub-MOA,


See almost every finn-barreled rifle out there. The rest is up to the shooter.


then no, it won't do everything the .30-06 will do. Can you even get brass cases for it without paying $1 each for Lapua or Norma???

In the long run, brass isn't even an issue. I've got 300 unfired Lapua cases and paid 30 cents each. Even at $1 each, it's still the least expensive part of the load when amortized over a couple dozen reloadings.

For most of my purposes, I'd take a 30-06 over a 7.62x54R in a heartbeat. I own 2 1903s, 7 mausers in various chamberings, 3 rifles being built on mauser actions (257 bob, 6mm rem, and 6.5x55), and 8 mosins. My main hunting rifles are a 7x57 Mexican mauser, an 8x57 Spanish mauser (shoots 1" groups after a new crown), and a 1903 custom rifle in 30-06. BUT, I have more fun shooting my mosins simply because they are reasonably accurate, cheap to shoot, and tend to surprise a lot of people with how well they work.

Matt

elwoodm
November 22, 2012, 12:16 PM
mosins are great rifles and you will see that even more if you start reloading for them. this is a gun that if you take care of them and do what your supposed to for them 98% of the time its a ++++++ experience. thats why i have 5 of them:D

nathan
November 22, 2012, 12:22 PM
Enemy at the Gates movie .

While the German Army lay siege to Stalingrad the Red Army and their Mosins were in short supply but they carried on. The rest was history. Love the simplicity and ruggedness of the Mosin. Love live the 54 R.

Onward Allusion
November 22, 2012, 12:45 PM
Ya know, when the MN's were going for $79 - $89 a piece they were great deal, but these days at $150 plus shipping and possibly transfer fee for those w/o a C&R, you better be buying them for their collect-ability as a military rifle and not as a sow's ear for a silk purse. Much more accurate and better looking pre-owned .30 rifles can be had for about $50 more.

Gunnerboy
November 22, 2012, 03:00 PM
I have to ask: how or why? Maybe I'm the only one, but I just can't picture a viable scenario in my head where my gun would end up in front of or under a road grader. went bear hunting with a buddy, he sat the rifle on the cart he was pulling we got past the road grader behind a locked gate while walking, the rifle somehow fell off ( couldnt hear over the road grader) got about 200 yds past it i turned around and asked him if he had loaded up yet and he realised what had happened to the rifle.

bainter1212
November 22, 2012, 05:04 PM
FYI : the Nagant revolver is the only revolver in existence that can be silenced/suppressed. The cylinder to barrel seal makes this possible.

repawn
November 22, 2012, 05:28 PM
For the brass - 100 pieces of lapua for $30. https://www.store-p4kyluh.mybigcommerce.com/7-62-x-53r-7-62-x-54-russian/

I took a deer with my mosin using a 150 gr sp. Dropped the deer on the spot at 50 yards. I have other hunting rifles - but there is something simple about using the mosin for deer hunting.

It is cheap and fun to shoot. Mine is a 1929 Tula hex receiver. I paid 89 for it and it is reasonably accurate.

OrangePwrx9
November 22, 2012, 06:01 PM
If MilSurp is your thing, save your money and get a 6.5x55 Swedish Mauser. Well built and phenomenally accurate...even with iron sights. The one I shot about put me in shock it was so accurate.

caribou
November 22, 2012, 06:24 PM
Brass for reloading the 7.62X54r may be expensive, while the '06 components are not too expensive, yet, but 30-06 milsurp in quantity is very expensive when you can find it as opposed to 54r milsurp being ceap and plentyfull for now.

Our military manufactured billions of reloadable 30-06, and so has our commercial suppliers, though Comblock cartridges were made in steel cases and few for domestic rel;oading during communist times, and the US didnt import much at all till the Chinese guns and ammo started comming in in the 80's

.303 Britt loads the same bullet, and theres more variety of manufactures makeing X54r components all the time.

Accuracy wize, 7.62X54r and the 30-06 are equals.

22250Rem
November 22, 2012, 08:08 PM
The Norma & Lapua brass, while top quality, is just too expensive for my tastes when it comes to 7.62x54R. Back in June I bought a bunch of Prvi Partizan (made in Serbia) 150 gr. soft point in reloadable brass from Midway for $15.99 per box of twenty. The stuff is very accurate out of my 91/30 and the brass is also very high quality. Back then 20 rounds of empty Norma or Lapua brass was about 4 or 5 bucks more than twenty, loaded, 150 gr. S.P.'s in good reloadable brass. Sometimes it pays to look around.

repawn
November 22, 2012, 09:01 PM
The Norma & Lapua brass, while top quality, is just too expensive for my tastes when it comes to 7.62x54R. Back in June I bought a bunch of Prvi Partizan (made in Serbia) 150 gr. soft point in reloadable brass from Midway for $15.99 per box of twenty. The stuff is very accurate out of my 91/30 and the brass is also very high quality. Back then 20 rounds of empty Norma or Lapua brass was about 4 or 5 bucks more than twenty, loaded, 150 gr. S.P.'s in good reloadable brass. Sometimes it pays to look around.

Generally I use the same - though I did buy 135 pieces of once fired from a frum for 10. The Papua is onsale at the link I posted above for $30 for 100 - not bad for new brass.

I like e Sierra 150 gr sp for 303 .311 diameter - works perfect in my mosin.

Kachok
November 23, 2012, 02:47 AM
If MilSurp is your thing, save your money and get a 6.5x55 Swedish Mauser. Well built and phenomenally accurate...even with iron sights. The one I shot about put me in shock it was so accurate.
^ +1 Love my Sweed, no 7.62 could ever take it's place, not even a really good one :D

Inebriated
November 23, 2012, 02:48 AM
Used to be price, but that seems to be going up like everything else.

Swampman
November 23, 2012, 06:50 AM
In one word VERSATILITY!

What other rifle can do all this?
- It's an excellent club
- A better than average spear
- An awesome flamethrower (M38/M44 versions)
- A fair crutch
- A decent crowbar
- A usable (barely) canoe paddle
- It makes AWESOME firewood, especially after being marinated in cosmoline for a few decades

Plus it's the only rifle I know of that comes with TWO free dog collars and a leash!

stubbicatt
November 23, 2012, 08:04 AM
There's nothing "so great" about these milsurp rifles. However, they are fun to shoot at reasonable distances. And I don't get as concerned if it drops off the bench or something and gets dented as badly as I would an expensive civilian rifle.

Ammo is still inexpensive, relatively speaking.

For plinking it is one of my favorite bolt actioned rifles. Don't need to shoot anymore than about 20 or 30 rounds and that is enough for the day.

SlamFire1
November 23, 2012, 08:05 AM
The Nagant rifle represents 1888 action technology, clunky compared to a M98 action but totally functional.

I like my Mosinís because they are fun. They go bang , were cheap and shot cheap ammunition.

morcey2
November 23, 2012, 08:47 AM
In one word VERSATILITY!

What other rifle can do all this?
- It's an excellent club
- A better than average spear
- An awesome flamethrower (M38/M44 versions)
- A fair crutch
- A decent crowbar
- A usable (barely) canoe paddle
- It makes AWESOME firewood, especially after being marinated in cosmoline for a few decades

Plus it's the only rifle I know of that comes with TWO free dog collars and a leash!

I think you stole a couple of those. :)

http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinHumor.htm

Ash
November 23, 2012, 08:59 AM
And the best Mosins rival the best Mausers in fit, finish, trigger, and accuracy. The top is Finnish and 100% Finnish military issue. The bottom is Czech and ditto.

catinthebat
November 24, 2012, 01:11 AM
Inexpensive, cheap to shoot, indestructible, and historical. Probably sums it up.

Ash
November 24, 2012, 07:07 AM
Those who have come to trash the Mosin have done so out of ignorance. They compare the crude-looking (only crude in finish, fit and accuracy were not affected) 1943 Izhevsk rifles, built in a hurry with Germans roaming about from the Steppes to nearly the Caucasus. Compare a normal Mosin, pre-war, with a Mauser of the same ere, and compare them in equally clean condition, and you find that the sights are virtually identical with identical adjustability, equally smooth-bolts, stocks that are fundamentally the same in quality, equal bluing/finishing/fit, etc.

The Mosin is a rorshach test for many. They like their personal choice, and so the Mosin must be crap. They'll proceed then to find ways it is crap. Ditto for the Carcano. Having owned them all, including good and rough versions of them all, there is nothing superior about a Mauser in a military rifle over a Mosin. Sights are identical (in the case of Finnish Mosins, the Mosin sights can be superior to any standard-issue Mauser from any nation). The Mosin safety is not for girlie men, but it is simple, extremely quiet, easy to work if you actually know how, and once engaged will not accidentally bump off. Accuracy of a Mosin is no different than a k98k of the same issue year. Compare Finnish Mosins, and you find it hard for many Mausers to even be equal. Certainly no Mauser can have a better trigger than the Finn. Design-wise the trigger is excellent. Many refurbs have inconsistent triggers, the result of an indifferent refurbishment program, but that is not the fault of the trigger design. The Remington model 700 bolt actually has as much in common with a Mosin as it does with a Mauser.

As to who designed it, well, there are a number of men involved in its design. It starts with Hiram Berdan of the good old US of A. He created the Berdan II rifle, which was the progenitor of the Mosin. Sergei Mosin evolved the US-designed Berdan, keeping the US-created aesthetics of the rifle and largely the same receiver and bolt, added a bolt head with two locking lugs, included his own trigger design, and mated it to his butt stock magazine design. This is decades and two wars before Lenin took over, by the way. The arms commission didn't care for the magazine and, depending on who's telling the story, picked the magazine from Emile Nagant's rifle submission, which they otherwise did not care for. So, the Mosin is an evolved American design following the American aesthetic created by Col. Berdan himself.

The Mosin design has served militarily longer than any Mauser design, and is still in service today (albeit in reserves in Finland as the Tkiv-85, the Czechs surplussed their VZ54/91's last year). No Mauser can make an equal claim, and Finland hardly qualifies as an ignorant, peasant-based military, nor did the Czechs.

Are there better rifles? Scoping is easier on a Mauser than a Mosin, but the Mosin M91/30PU sniper was the most successful sniper ever built. I'd wager that either of the two Mosins I posted on the previous page could compete equally well with any Mauser. The 1903 had better sights, but on a battlefield, the M39 Mosin's sights are equally as good and fully adjustable. The 1903A3 has better standard sights than any Mosin (or Mauser for that matter), ditto for the 1917 Enfield. Ditto for the adjustable #4 Enfield's sights. But there's nothing in a Mauser's sighting arrangement that is better than the updated 1930's sights - the m91's saw-tooth sights were just okay, and the Finnish M39's combat sights were better than the combat sights on any Mauser (if the Springfield/Enfield derivatives are counted separately).

Is there are better battle rifle? In bolt actions, only the SMLE Enfield gets the nod with the higher capacity magazine and short bolt-throw. But on the battlefield, history has shown the Mosin will perform equally well as any other bolt-action rifle. An army armed with Mosins would be equal to one armed with Mausers everywhere except in the imaginations of some people. Specific Mosin models can even be rated among the best ever fielded. In any case, personal preference is really king here, and one man may shoot one kind of rifle best. Since personal preference is the balance-tipper, any choice, Mauser, Enfield, Mosin, Carcano, etc is a good one.

As far as rounds go, it is absurd to say the 7.62x54r does not come close to the 30-06. It certainly does, unless by close you are using microscopic comparisons. 7.62x39 does not come close, but 54r is absolutely comparable. Unless, of course, you claim that the 308 cannot come close to the 30-06, and many here will argue that. Is the 30-06 more versatile? Only in the heaviest weights. In everything else, they are virtually the same in performance. Any argument over an FPS here or there might as well argue about spirits on a pin head. Factory loadings obviously favor the 30-06 in choice and variety - something that goes away with reloading. But good hunting loads are always available for the 54r all the same. The deer/antelope/hog won't be able to tell the difference.

CraigC
November 24, 2012, 08:32 AM
They like their personal choice, and so the Mosin must be crap.
And the same logic can be applied to its fans. :rolleyes:


As far as rounds go, it is absurd to say the 7.62x54r does not come close to the 30-06.
On paper, sure. But that wasn't the argument.


All I care to say is that at least it does have its fans and y'all won't have to fight me over them at the $79 rifle rack.

Ash
November 24, 2012, 09:02 AM
Yeah, Craig, but where I have mentioned that a Mauser is crap? I did not nor have I. See what you want in the ink blots. It really doesn't matter.

The argument you made as to ammo is that the 7.62x54r doesn't come close to the 30-06. That ain't paper or what ever. In the real world, there isn't a dime's difference in their performance except at the utter fringes. For every weight up to 220 grains, their performance is so close that barrel length has as much influence on performance.

I've no need nor desire to convince you to buy a Mosin. But your comments on them are biased and ignorant - and that is not to flame. Having owned all the actions, Mauser, Enfield, Carcano, etc, I can be objective enough to know that there really is no difference. Best examples of all the rifles exhibit quality workmanship, provide good accuracy, and served their armies well. There is no difference in real-world performance between any of them, except when the double-capacity magazine of the Enfield is considered or the fixed battle sights on the WWII Carcanos being inferior to other sights.

As to where you make your purchases - the $79 Mosin is largely a myth, except when on sale. Even so, I could waste my time with the same $79 Turkish Mauser mis-match kings. Or, try my hand at the absurdly-priced Russian refurb K98k's with their dip blues and rough actions. Bottom examples of all actions can be found. Apples and apples, on the other hand...compare my $300 M39 with a $300 RC K98k and the Mosin wins. That is not to say there are no fine examples of Mausers about - the Swedes and Czechs made some really beautiful versions. The Persian Mauser, apart from being very long, is a work of art. Yet I'd happily compare my SAKO M28/76 against any Mauser.

By the way, what's your best bolt action military rifle? What is the best that you own?

CraigC
November 24, 2012, 09:27 AM
The argument you made as to ammo is that the 7.62x54r doesn't come close to the 30-06. That ain't paper or what ever. In the real world, there isn't a dime's difference in their performance except at the utter fringes. For every weight up to 220 grains, their performance is so close that barrel length has as much influence on performance.
Really? Can I go to the local shop and buy 7.62x54 cases? Bullets??? Are there premium 220gr bullets available or are we only looking at weight? Can you buy sporting rifles in the 7.62? Can I walk into any gunshop and stumble over a rack of good, used 7.62 that are NOT Mosins? No. It was said that the 7.62 would do anything the .308 and .30-06 can do. I never said the 7.62 wouldn't push a similar weight bullet at a similar velocity. I was addressing all the other little details you guys are ignoring. Why? Because there's no point. People like the Mosin because it's cheap and there's cheap ammo available. If it weren't cheap, few would buy them. Nobody buys them because the have fantastic triggers, gilt edged accuracy or a comfortable stock. Nobody buys them to have a $5000 custom rifle built out of them. Nobody buys them to feed them finely crafted handloads with premium bullets. So you can go on and on about how good a good one is, nobody is looking for good ones. They're looking for cheap ones.


But your comments on them are biased and ignorant - and that is not to flame.
My comments are based on inspecting rifles using the knowledge I've built over my lifetime and nothing more. No bias. As far as ignorance, well, everything I know about Mosins I learned from Mosins. Nice try at the veiled personal attack though. :rolleyes:


By the way, what's your best bolt action military rifle? What is the best that you own?
I don't own any so I really have no dog in this fight. I have, however, examined and inspected enough of them to know that I would not cross the street for a free Mosin.

BearGriz
November 24, 2012, 10:17 AM
To be revised and extended because I hate typing on an I-pad.....

Matt

Matt/morcey2: Have you tried using the split keyboard? I have a dedicated (physical keyboard) for my iPad, but when I'm not using that, I love the split keyboard. I can type almost as fast on this split one (using it now), as I can on a real one. Just hold down on the keyboard button in the lower-right corner and select "Split" and it will give you a nice keyboard that is easy to use with just your thumbs!

That said, my contribution to this thread is that I like the idea of a Mosin, but from what I can see, the days of really cheap ones and cheap ammo are behind us.

Plus, I've decided that I'm a wimp! I've shot a couple of Mosins (my friends got some when they were more plentiful and cheaper), and they KICK! Like I said, I'm a wimp. I like 9mm, 7.62x39, etc. I like to be able to shoot all day, so I've decided that I'm a bit recoil sensitive.

morcey2
November 24, 2012, 10:22 AM
I don't own any so I really have no dog in this fight. I have, however, examined and inspected enough of them to know that I would not cross the street for a free Mosin.

Really? For not having a dog in this fight, you're sure putting a lot of money down on something.

What I said...


The 7.62x54R can do pretty much anything that a 30-06 or 308 can do, although bullet selection is more limited.


I don't know about everywhere else, but around here "pretty much" is a qualifier that means "almost", not "exactly". As far as performance is concerned that's an accurate statement. I never asserted anything about the popularity of $5000 custom rifles based on the mosin action. That also has absolutely nothing to do with what I said.

We're not ignoring the other little details. I asserted that the cartridge will do almost anything a 30-06 or 308 will do and you keep bringing up paint color and stereo system availability while arguing vehicle performance.

Wanna feed them premium bullets? In .308"? Buy a finn barreled rifle (not M39 or M91/30). They have some of the best barrels ever produced.

Nothing else you've said has any relevance to what I said.

I'm not arguing which cartridge is better, just whether it's sufficient.

Matt

CraigC
November 24, 2012, 10:54 AM
The 7.62x54R can do pretty much anything that a 30-06 or 308 can do, although bullet selection is more limited.
Bullet selection is extremely limited. As is brass selection. As is rifle selection. As is everything else selection. So no, the 7.62x54R will NOT "do pretty much anything that a 30-06 or 308 can do" because it is much more limited. In factory loads, bullet selection, component availability and rifle selection. If it did "do pretty much anything that a 30-06 or 308 can do" it would be WAAAAAY more popular than it is, other than cheap Mosin's and cheap ammo.


Nothing else you've said has any relevance to what I said.
Everything I've said is relevant to an objective discussion on the merits of the rifle and its cartridge. You just don't want to hear it. You're blinded by your own choices.

Onward Allusion
November 24, 2012, 01:25 PM
Wow, almost as good as glocktalk.com! :evil:

Roadking Rider
November 24, 2012, 01:42 PM
This should help you understand why people like there Mosin Nagants.
http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinHumor.htm

Ash
November 24, 2012, 02:17 PM
Craig, I mean no veiled insults. I don't do that. But without owning any of these rifles, you are posting from a point of ignorance. Inspecting a Ferrari and owning one are two different things. Ditto for a Volkswagon.

It is interesting you point out bullet choice. I have several Mosins with a bore diameter of .308 inches. Seems to me my bullet choices are outstanding. Indeed, they are equal to that of any 30-06 made. Only at the heaviest bullet weights can an issue arise, and only then in brute power.

By the way, there are many sporting rifles made for the 7.62x54r, some of them quite pricey.

http://www.rwcgroupllc.com/firearms/izmash-centerfire-rifles/67b-record-7-62x54r-wooden-stock/

Not a tithe of the number of 30-06, and nobody here pretends otherwise. That was not the question. The question was about the draw a Mosin has. It has been answered. Ditto for ammo. Ammo availability is quite good and the options are suitable for any given task and considerably cheaper than what is available in 30-06. I have sniper-grade ammo that cost half what on-the-shelf commercial hunting loads cost. I have high-quality hunting loads as well, with weights of 180 and 203 grain soft points that are accurate and powerful.

In short, from those who have owned all types of actions, the Mosin is not so quickly dismissed as you seem ready to do. I once quickly dismissed Chinese m14 receivers - that is until I learned better. With knowledge came understanding.

Chevelle SS
November 24, 2012, 02:17 PM
They are cheap, ammo is relatively cheap, and they have some historical significance.

morcey2
November 24, 2012, 03:01 PM
Bullet selection is extremely limited. As is brass selection. As is rifle selection. As is everything else selection. So no, the 7.62x54R will NOT "do pretty much anything that a 30-06 or 308 can do" because it is much more limited. In factory loads, bullet selection, component availability and rifle selection. If it did "do pretty much anything that a 30-06 or 308 can do" it would be WAAAAAY more popular than it is, other than cheap Mosin's and cheap ammo.


Factory hunting loads: Winchester, Lapua, Norma, S&B, PPU,Brown Bear, Barnaul (possibly the same as BB), Wolf Gold (possibly the same as PPU)

There are more factory loads for 7.62x54R than for 6mm Remington and they're more easily available. I'd hardly consider that a liability for a 6mm remington. If it could do anything that a 243 Winchester could do, it would be "WAAAAAY more popular than it is".

Bullet selection:Hornady, Speer, Sierra, PPU, S&B, and a couple I'm probably missing.

No, there isn't an overwhelming selection of premium bullets for reloading, but if I'm after something that needs a premium 220+ grain bullet traveling at 2400 fps or higher, I'm not going to be doing that with either a 30-06 _OR_ 7.62x54R. AND, again, if you get a finnish rifle with a 0.308 bore, you've got full access to the entire selection of 0.308" premium bullets.

component availability: Lapua, Norma, PPU all make brass and won't likely stop any time soon.


Everything I've said is relevant to an objective discussion on the merits of the rifle and its cartridge. You just don't want to hear it. You're blinded by your own choices.

Saying that lack of demand for $5000 custom rifles chambered in 7.62x54R is hardly objective. I'm pretty sure that if I wanted a custom rifle and had $5000 to put into it, I could get it built chambering the 7.62x54R. I agree that it isn't the optimal cartridge, but nothing else is either. Would I feel undergunned taking a mosin that shoots well after deer or elk? No. How about brown bear? Yep. Same with the 30-06. Ballistically, the 7.62x54 is comparable to a 308.

And as for being blinded by my own choices, I hunt with a 30-06(among others), not a 7.62x54.

I buy mosins for the same reasons I buy Mausers. They're fun to shoot, easy to reload for, and the history behind them (If I can get to them before bubba) is lots of fun. Although, shooting an M44 or M38 without a recoil pad of some sort can make for a very short day of shooting. 20 rounds and I'm done. :)

I like mosins. You don't. I get it. I don't like asparagus, but that doesn't mean that it isn't a good, wholesome vegetable with lots of nutrients, roughage, and a little bit of cosmoline. ;)

And I don't think this will ever get as bad as either glock talk or ar15 dot com. We're all better than that here. I haven't seen anything remotely resembling that, even in this discussion.

Matt

leadcounsel
November 24, 2012, 03:29 PM
Price and history.

I love how people compare the $100 rifle and .10cent ammo to $300, $500, and $800 rifles and .50cent ammo.

I also love how people compare a rifle made by basically slave labor under harsh wartime conditions with rifles that were made by well-paid employees under non-wartime conditions.

$100 buys you a really sweet piece of history, AND a funtioning gun. Another $100 buys 440 rounds, more than you'd likely shoot in several years. What's not to like?

I mean seriously....

CraigC
November 24, 2012, 04:31 PM
But without owning any of these rifles, you are posting from a point of ignorance.
A wise man once said, "I do not have to lick a turd to know that I would not want to eat one". Just as I don't have to own a Yugo to know that they're junk, I don't have to own a Mosin to know that I do not want one and most importantly. The good Lord gave me the gift of deductive reasoning and after 25yrs of buying and selling guns, I think I've figured out how to separate the chaff from the wheat.

See my signature for a little ancient wisdom. :rolleyes:

shafter
November 24, 2012, 04:42 PM
I like them because they are extremely tough, accurate, powerful, historical appeal, and last but not least the price and price of ammo can't be beat!

happygeek
November 24, 2012, 04:42 PM
See my signature for a little ancient wisdom.
__________________
"Wise men learn by others’ harms; fools by their own."


:confused:

I got a 1931 hex receiver Mosin in excellent condition last summer for $99 + shipping. That's not much harm to learn by, heck my wife tends to sink far, far more than that into Starbucks, fast food, nail salons, Bed Bath & Beyond, etc in a month.

nathan
November 24, 2012, 04:49 PM
Cheaper bulk ammo. SHoot more and shoot often = improves marksmanship and confidence.

A win win situation. Again, get the Finn M 39 and appreciate more the potential of the Mosin design.

Its a great hunting rifle as long its within reasonable open sight distance and depending on your eye vision. For my old eyes, im confident just within 100 yds and less. But with a big target like deer or elk, i may extend that range to 200 yds. As to hogs, i ll stick my shots to less than 75 yds. The thrill of getting close to the game is the best part and not just pulling the trigger.

kBob
November 24, 2012, 05:08 PM
CHeap. Durable. Goes "Boom!" The ammo is cheap. Historical.

Beats not having a rifle.

BTW I did own a Yugo, it was cheap, got good milage for the time. Steel body stood up to having a semi truck tire blow next to it and bounce off of it with out any real damage to the car or me. Once caught in a flash flood and not only did it float but continued to run and allowed me to "drive" out of the water while two other big American cars a lot nicer got trashed. When a guy pulled off to the right and then did a U turn right infront of me so I T-boned him at 55 mph the yugo crash design functioned perfectly with the steering wheel turning up rather than coming through me. My only injuries were a shoulder belt bruise (pre airbag) and busted knuckles that hit the windsheild.

Certainly it had issues but it worked.

So do mosins.

I would cross the street for a free one.

-kBob

JR47
November 24, 2012, 05:16 PM
I started buying Mosin rifles when they first hit out shores. Back then, they could be had for as little as $40-50 dollars. Many were in excellent condition, and some were rare variants. They are all fun to shoot, and accurate enough for plinking in even the worst cases.

I have several Model 91/30 rifles that will hold 2 MOA with good ammunition. It's funny how all of these rifles are supposedly so inaccurate, when the Soviets used them so successfully against German snipers using K98s. There are literally tens of thousands of German soldiers who gave their lives to prove that the Mosin rifle was, indeed, accurate.

Then again, the 7.62x54R continued as a sniper round in the Dragonov rifle.

While one may not have to lick a turd to know about it, that has nothing to do with a gun. Anyone who, no matter how many years they have in the gun business, has reached a conclusion about a gun without ever firing one, is either lying, or a fool.

Remember how many of these same bozos were talking down the Glock when it was introduced? Yes, they showed us their accumulated wisdom.

If you don't care for a particular rifle of other gun, that's fine. However, don't make sweeping statements about them. That''s the province of the uneducated.

Not everyone cares to re-load. That .30-06 round with a 240 gr bullet is not loaded by anyone commercially, is it? In fact, it's hard to find .30-06 on the shelves much heavier than 175 gr., while a standard loading for the 7.62x54R is 203 gr. .

If everyone bought rifles based on some mythical usage criteria, there wouldn't be nearly as many calibers, bullet weights, or rifling choices.

Not everyone can afford a $700 rifle, much less $1000. Nor do they usually need one.

Ash
November 24, 2012, 05:25 PM
Craig, you sure that's a turd or a oh-so-tasty Baby Ruth? No, I'm not going to lick a turd quite simply because it is not food or a pretty girl's lips. Those are things tongues are for. Your analogy is more akin to not licking a steak and still knowing it tastes like cotton candy. Your knowledge is based solely on your convictions, which are themselves based on nothing.

You know a Yugo is crap because they fell apart. I have a modern sniper, evidenced by the photo on the previous question, made on a receiver that was forged in 1897. You want evidence? The engineers as SAKO, a company known for putting out a quality product, felt that the metallurgy and quality of that receiver was up to the task of arming Finnish soldiers in the 1980's. That is enough for both of us without actually holding the rifle. Even so, that is not good enough for you.

The engineers at Tikka felt comfortable enough with the 91/30 action that they built thousands of 91/30's (and M91's) using Tikka barrels. Valmet felt similarly about the Mosin that they built M91's, 27's, and 39's on the same action.

Good God, man, SIG made barrels for Mosins, and Remington, Westinghouse, CZ, even FEG, FN and Radom produced barrels for Mosins or entire Mosin rifles/carbines. Broaden your scope some.

Reloadron
November 24, 2012, 05:56 PM
I always see people talking about how much they love mosins so im thinking if i see one at the gun show im going to on saturday ill pick one up because they a relativly cheap and the ammos not a bad price either. But i would like to know whats so good about them and why every one loves them. Any info would be helpful
Additional ?: what are the nagant revolvers just a revolver that was standard with a mosin rifle or what

I agree with whoever it was way back there that said you answered your own question. The Mosin-Nagant rifles have a strong following. Almost like a cult thing. Some folks just collect the things in all their flavors while others see it as a good first high powered rifle.

About 15 years ago we were buying the Model 91 versions (damn those were long) for about $33 to $35 each and selling them on gun show tables for $69 after I cleaned them up. We were also buying the first Chi-Com SKS rifles at the time for about $60 and selling them all cleaned up for $109 with two 20 round boxes of ammunition included and a few stripper clips. The SKS rifles outsold the Mosin-Nagants hands down and actually the Mosin was the better rifle but not as tacticool, the Mosin also lacked the 1,000 plus after market gizmos to attach to the rifle.

I shot plenty of those rifles and were they my O3A3? Were they on par with a M1 Garand? Nope, but they did not carry the same price tag either. They were very affordable and to this day the flavors out there remain affordable. I believe affordability is the key factor. My guess is this forum and many like it have a collection of new shooters long on shooting enthusiasm and short on funds. This is where the Mosins fill a void, affordability and not every new shooter will save for buying a CMP M1 Garand or similar surplus rifle.

Following WW I large numbers of the rifles were sold off commercially, yes, that long ago and matter of fact Remington offered the cartridge with a 150 grain bullet (bronze point hunting round). Unfortunately they quit marketing the stuff around 1950. Following WW II even more of the rifles flowed in for commercial sale.

While the 7.62 X 54R cartridge is not the 30-06 but it does carry its own and does well at what it was intended to do. If we look at a 30-06 and a 7.62 X 54R side by side the 30-06 obviously offers up a greater case capacity and subsequently will fare better as we move into heavier bullets. While Norma, Lapua make the ammunition and brass for reloading enthusiast the stuff is a tad expensive for the new shooter on a budget leaving them with the military surplus stuff out there which does fine for basic shooting.

Most of the rifles I am seeing today at shows are a little rougher than the ones that were selling 15 or so years ago but as to bang for buck they are not a bad deal.

Just My Take
Ron

CraigC
November 24, 2012, 06:10 PM
Your knowledge is based solely on your convictions, which are themselves based on nothing.
Luckily I have the internet, where hordes of know-it-alls like yourself are more than willing to tell me that I've wasted my time with everything I've bothered to learn myself. That everything I think I know is false and that I don't need to know anything I didn't learn online from anonymous know-it-alls. At least I can stop wasting my money and time on books. Don't have to bother with thinking for myself any more. My own knowledge and experience is obsolete, I have Ash to take care of everything I need to know. Hell, why don't you just post for me from now on?

Jesus, condescend much? How long did it take you to know everything???


While one may not have to lick a turd to know about it, that has nothing to do with a gun. Anyone who, no matter how many years they have in the gun business, has reached a conclusion about a gun without ever firing one, is either lying, or a fool.
I reckon I need to add a Heritage Rough Rider, a Henry .22 and a Chiappa 1911 to my collection. Because apparently smelling like a skunk, looking like a skunk and acting like a skunk isn't enough. I have to get some stink on me to REALLY know anything.

I'm so glad I tuned in today. I'll go ahead and knock my brains out and stop thinking for myself. I reckon 25yrs of buying over 100 guns, a lifetime of shooting, handloading and study was all just a waste of time.

Ash
November 24, 2012, 06:17 PM
A lifetime of shooting but never shot a Mosin so you know all there is to know about Mosins?

Listen, I'm not trying to flame you. If you think I have, sorry. I do want to keep it High Road.

But, you trash something you admit you have never owned. Beyond the list of nations that issued the Mosin, beyond the top-tier manufacturers who actually made them, there is here the sheer number of shooters who know them from first hand experience. You call them a skunk because. . . because you know a skunk when you smell one? Really? Do you really know enough of Mosins to make an objective opinion?

We know a Yugo is junk because of the drivers who bought them. Good enough. We also know that many Auto Ordnance 1911's, particularly pre Kahr ownership, are jam-o-matics because of those who owned them. Worthy of making a judgement. We are also gifted by legions of Hesse-receiver FAL's and AR's to know that they are no good.

What do the large numbers of Mosin owners say? How about listen to them. They know of what they speak.

OrangePwrx9
November 24, 2012, 06:30 PM
Someone once said that only accurate guns are interesting. That may or may not be true. However, after shooting a Mosin, I found it very uninteresting.

I can see someone wanting a Mosin if he has little money and no gun; but there are better choices.

Fifty years ago when I was in my teens and working for a dollar an hour I decided I wanted a single shot Winchester shotgun. My boss at my part-time job was a dealer in both Winchesters and Remingtons. I went to him and asked him to order a single shot for me. He told me to save a little more money and he'd get me either a Model 12 Winchester or a Remington Wingmaster. Ended up with the Wingmaster (870) and a second barrel; still got it, great gun. Glad I listened to him.

leadcounsel
November 24, 2012, 06:31 PM
...turd....?!?!?!?!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosin%E2%80%93Nagant

Um... I don't think so.

Anyone saying a Mosin is a "turd" is opening themselves up to serious criticism. A lifetime of shooting yet never shooting one of the most prolific rifles in the history of the world - not much variety in my humble opinion. That'd be like criticising the Remington 870 yet never shooting one.

I think someone refering to the Mosin as a "turd" has ZERO credibility in the gun world. The Mosin carried the day for the Ruskies for decades and was used in WWI and WWII (by the way, the Ruskies have a proven track record with guns, replacing the Mosin with the SKS and then the AK47 and AK74, and also brought us the Makarov and Tokarev)... The list of rifles that have seen as much action as Mosins is very very short. I can't think of many frankly. Tens of millions of them have been manufactured.

Heck, I think WWII sniper Mosins were among the most accurate in the war.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasily_Zaytsev

On 22 September 1942, Zaytsev crossed the River Volga and joined the 1047th Rifle Regiment of the 284th Rifle Division of the 62nd Army, headed by General Nikolai Batyuk. One day, Zaytsev’s commanding officer called him up and pointed at an enemy soldier in a window 800 metres away. Zaytsev took aim from his standard-issue Mosin-Nagant rifle, and with one shot, the soldier was down. In less than a few moments, two other German soldiers appeared in the window, checking their fallen officer. Vasily fired two more shots, and they were killed

Prior to 10 November, Zaytsev had already killed 32 Axis soldiers with the standard-issue Mosin–Nagant rifle. Between October 1942 and January 1943, Zaytsev made an estimated 400 kills. So, imagine being in a city overrun by Germans. You'd have to have absolute faith in the accuracy of your rifle at long range so you could fire and then escape.

The Mosin is prolific throughout the world and saw action in nearly EVERY global conflict since WWI and is used in dozens of nations. These were recovered in large numbers in Vietnam and even Operation Iraqi Freedom and Operation Enduring Freedom.

Rugged durability, battle simplicity and accuracy...

So, it's clearly not a "turd."

CraigC
November 24, 2012, 10:28 PM
A lifetime of shooting but never shot a Mosin so you know all there is to know about Mosins?
I know enough to know I do not want one. I'm VERY confident in my ability to decide which guns are worth owning and which are not. The Mosin might be a fine rifle if all you can afford is $100 com-block surplus.


But, you trash something you admit you have never owned.
Like I said, several times now, I don't have to buy one to know that I do not want to own one. There's that lovely gift of deductive reasoning again.


What do the large numbers of Mosin owners say? How about listen to them.
I do. I'm listening here and what I hear is that people buy them for the reason I said they buy them. Because they are cheap. I also hear that they are cheap in a negative way. Very poorly machined, heavy triggers, very poorly designed stocks that punish the shooter, etc., etc.. People usually ardently defend their own choices so the response here is to be expected.


So, it's clearly not a "turd."
I never said it was a turd. Work on your reading comprehension, counselor.


Tens of millions of them have been manufactured.
And that automatically makes them good? I reckon that's enough for the fanboys. For me, I have to ask "why?". The reason is clear for those objective enough to see beyond their choice in weaponry. I would only hope that we would see such a response in a thread trashing M1 Garands or 1903's as we do for a rifle built by communists to arm a conscript army. Jesus, I don't see such frothing at the mouth when someone insults John Browning.

DPris
November 25, 2012, 01:48 AM
Personally, I find them a moderately interesting piece of military history that uses a fairly inefficient design (short straight bolt, awkward safety) to begin with, and frequently comes in mediocre overall condition nowdays with flaking stocks and bolts & chambers that need serious attention to de-cosmolining in avoiding the sticky bolt lift.
Sights are rarely "on" & frequently need some work at the front end to get them there.

The price of the gun & remaining stocks of relatively cheap surplus ammunition are probably the biggest reasons for non-mil collectors to buy them.

They are reasonably powerful, typically quite reliable, can be decently accurate.
They are not the equal in either design or execution of a contemporary Mauser or Enfield.
They were stored in conditions that have left warped wood, flaking varnish, and rust craters in barrel exteriors below the woodline.
Triggers are atrocious.
In original military form they can punish a shoulder fairly well.

Otherwise, they're cheap & a part of military nostalgia that can be fun to shoot, if you enjoy its shortcomings.

I have three, including one that has had several times more work put into it & glass put on it than it's worth.
I have Mausers.
I have owned several Enfields & still have an un-issued No4 MKII.
If I wanted a practical boltgun in military trim for serious purposes, including either hunting or as a general purpose rifle, the Mosin would be at the bottom of those three in order.

Still moderately interesting guns, but not outstanding, and if prices were to rise to three or four hundred dollars I would not buy one at those levels. At $100, yeah; much higher, nope.
Denis

ShooterGuy
November 25, 2012, 02:21 AM
Is a mosin up to major comparison on par with modern alternatives? Probably not. Is it generally a great choice considering its price, and for what it was made for. Absolutely. I once heard a guy complain he couldn't get a 1" group at 200 yds with irons outs of a Mosin.
My answer to talk like that......is it's a super mass produced hundred dollar'ish surplus rifle. Except that take a beating, and use a pretty good round (even if it is corrosive.)

I have 3 Mosin's all hand selected and well marked primarily for their history. However I've also shot all 3 and could never complain about their worth. The only time I had an issue was when first introduced to Mosin's I had a little trial and error on how to make sure your pin is exposed enough when you re-assemble the bolt. Found out real quick that if you don't you could have some reliability issues since it wont engage the primer on the bullet.

Anyhow, already typed out enough on a subject that's been argued a billion times before. Short answer....Mosin's are awesome for what they are, about sums it up...

Ash
November 25, 2012, 06:29 AM
Craig, you know enough not to want one. That is perfectly fine. I know enough about an AR to not want one - again. I've owned three, but the little voices on the internet say how great they are. I don't like AR's.

$100 commie junk? That is Archie Bunker ignorant drivel and you know it. Even the worst-finish machining of a 1943 Izhevsk is well-machined where it counts - but you wouldn't know that.

You don't have to like, want, or own one. You certainly can know enough not to want one. No biggie. But then your other blanket statements are the kind made by someone who actually has no idea what they are talking about.

Again, I don't intend to flame you. There is no hidden veil of insult here. Insult my evident deductive reasoning (care to read that whole Yugo line of stuff?), fine by me. But your arguments are childish.

Note the "commie junk."

caribou
November 25, 2012, 07:26 AM
I happen to preferr the SIG, the Sako, The Tikka, the Valmet parts, builds and upgrades that make Finn Mosin variations what they are, a Mosin done proper :D

Not that any other are any less, no matter who made them, but hey, these companys consitantly made the best parts and built the best variations seen inthe Moisn line up.

New England Westinghouse and Remington made some VERY nice Mosins as well.......

Still, a Mosin any flavor is a straight up Riflemans Rifle!!

Roadking Rider
November 25, 2012, 08:04 AM
I could care less what people think of the Mosin Nagant. If you don't like them then it's your right not to buy one. No big deal here. Personally I like the 1942 Izzy I bought last summer. No it's not as high quality as lets say an Enfield or Mauser but that does not have a thing to do with the enjoyment I get out of shooting it. It's obvious buy the way they fly out the doors of the local GS that many people feel the same way I do. The bottom line is there cheap (not Junk) to buy and feed. They're reliable for a rifle that is so old, and a hoot to take to the range and have a great time with. I fail to see the down side of owning and shooting a MN unless your some kind of snob.

swag
November 25, 2012, 08:24 AM
I've got a few what I think of as some very good looking guns, funny how the mosin is the one that most people want to have a look at first. People always point out how unwieldy they are, like if you tried to carry it through the bush you'd get hung up and stuck. I look at there dimensions almost like a modern Kentucky flintlock, all long barrel an short stock.

Reloadron
November 25, 2012, 08:50 AM
Roadking Rider:

The bottom line is there cheap (not Junk) to buy and feed.

The bottom line is they're inexpensive to buy and feed.

There I fixed it! :)

Rifle ownership is just a matter of one owning and shooting what one happens to enjoy owning and shooting. Certain military surplus rifles almost develop a cult like following and the Mosin-Nagant family is one such family of rifles. I just figure to each their own. The only matter of importance is if the individual shooter and owner is happy and enjoys shooting their choice. The only person who needs to be happy and content with ownership of a Mosin-Nagant is the person who owns it. If they are happy and enjoy their rifle then I am happy for them. Not complicated and really matters not what the rifle is.

Ron

j1
November 25, 2012, 09:07 AM
Ditto what Savage 99 said. They defeated the Nazis and saved the world. That alone is enough to me.

CraigC
November 25, 2012, 11:02 AM
But your arguments are childish.
Yes, I must've been eating shrooms and imagined the crudeness of the rifles I examined.

Your arguments are typical of those who can't see past their own choices.

I 'like' AR's but aren't in love with them and own only one. I can certainly handle an objective discussion on them. Hell, I can have an objective discussion about any of the 100 or so guns I've owned. I'm not so blinded by fanboyism that I cannot see their flaws. Which is more than I can say for some folks.


They defeated the Nazis and saved the world.
Men and women defeated the Nazi's. The Mosin was handed to tens of thousands of Russian civilians as they were forcibly marched to slaughter. A firearm is an inanimate object. We have this argument with anti-gunners all the time. :rolleyes:

Ash
November 25, 2012, 12:39 PM
And you patently ignore any evidence beyond what you want to believe. We see that from anti-gunners all the time, too. There are examples on this very thread that refute what you have to say.

But, then, I wouldn't know. You know better. My ownership of an Erfurt GEW 98, Mauser K98k, Carl Gustav M96, Fazarkerly #4 Mk 1, Mk 2, and #5, BSA SMLE, Yugo M48, Polish, Hungarian, Romanian M44's, SIG, FN, Tikka, Valmet, and SAKO-barrelled or assembled Mosins, two Remington M91's and a Westinghouse M91, two CZ-made VZ54/91's, plus Tula, Izhevsk, and Sestrorysk m91's and Tula/Izhevsk 91/30's, two Terni Carcanos, a Winchester Garand and M14 made from Winchester parts, Quality Hardware M1 Carbine, Tula & Factory 26 SKS's, a Pedersen Custom 3500 in 30-06, Savage 720 shotuns, etc mean my knowledge of Mosins and other actions as well as their detail disassembly pales to your inspection of a few rifles. You certainly know better.

CraigC
November 25, 2012, 12:43 PM
I see a bunch of words on the screen but so far, no "evidence".

Tell me where these "good" hundred dollar Mosins are, with machining, fit & finish that rivals Mauser, because I've never seen one.

Ash
November 25, 2012, 12:50 PM
I'd say open your eyes. I have ownd $89 SAKO & VKT M39's that flat-out beat my two K98k's. I have a Tikka M91/30 that set me back $50, the same cost as my Westinghouse M91, both of which equal or surpass any German wartime Mauser.

But, then, how would I know? I only own them.

But you want to see? Here you go.

http://mosinnagant.net/

More to the point, in any case, I have yet to see your proof, Craig, that I am wrong.

leadcounsel
November 25, 2012, 01:15 PM
The Russians would not have fared well without a good rifle. Give them a bad rifle and they could not have turned them into good sniper rifles. Numbers alone were not the reason the Russians pushed back a well-equiped and experienced Nazi invasion.

And the ignorance to say the Mosin is not a good rifle is astounding.

Again, it's also unfair to compare it to modern rifles, metalurgy, and ammunition.

I have examples of most of the era rifles, and I prefer the K31, Mauser, and Garand yes. But to bag on the Mosin is just silly.

Just a couple years ago these were half the price they are now. I bought my first Mosins in 2007 for $50-60 each.

Now they are about $100-120. What else can you get for that price?

MachIVshooter
November 25, 2012, 01:17 PM
There are some really nice Mosins out there that rival or exceed other classic military rifles, such as the Finn M39. They're also more expensive.

The standard M91/30 rifle? It's appeal is cost. They are about the crudest rifles of the era (save perhaps late war "last-ditch" Arisakas). They are functional, though. They serve the purpose of launching .30 caliber bullets at the enemy with combat accuracy.

I have a lot of milsurp rifles, and the mosin is my least favorite. But it does have historical significance, and it is still and effective fighting implement, if not a refined one.

Bottom line, except for some really good scores people get now and then, you simply cannot beat the price of the Mosin. Yes, I managed a really clean type 99 Arisaka for $50 and a nice G98 for $100, but such deals are rare. Prices of mosins have increased recently, but not long ago, I could get them on my C&R for $79+shipping.

And the 7.62x54R cartridge? It is in the same leage as the other .30 caliber rounds of the period. The .30-06 and 8x57 were slightly more powerful than the rest, but the field effectiveness of those two, the 7.62x54R soviet, the 7.5x55 Swiss, the 7.7x58 Jap, the 7.5x54 French, 8x56 Hungarian, etc. were all on pretty equal footing.

CraigC
November 25, 2012, 02:33 PM
More to the point, in any case, I have yet to see your proof, Craig, that I am wrong.
And the ignorance to say the Mosin is not a good rifle is astounding.
Ok guys, I'll stop poking your bubble and let you argue with the other guys that don't like Mosins. In case you didn't notice, I'm not the only one.

AethelstanAegen
November 25, 2012, 03:24 PM
I've generally noticed that those who don't like Mosin's either have never owned one or owned one in very, very bad shape (and with the numbers available, it's really your own fault if you get a crappy and didn't inspect it). Mosin-Nagant's are cheap but that doesn't mean they're crap. The wartime manufactured rifles can be a bit roughly made (ie machining marks visible) but that doesn't make them a bad rifle. I have many other surplus rifles and I wouldn't say the Mosin-Nagant is the nicest of the bunch but it's also no where near the worst. They are super reliable, hard hitting, accurate and I don't find them be uncomfortable to shoot (no worse than many of the older rifles...it's a battle rifle, it's not going to be as soft shooting as .223 out of an AR).

So is it the greatest rifle ever, no probably not. Is it a really nice rifle for a very low price? Absolutely. I think you easily get the biggest bang for your buck out of any rifle available from a Mosin. They're fun, can be plenty accurate, reliable and you can feed one without breaking the bank. What's not to like about that? It's a no frills gun that will certainly get the job done and I really like that. If I'm taking a long camping trip out in the back woods, you can bet that I'm taking my Mosin-Nagant with me.

Sebastian the Ibis
November 25, 2012, 05:10 PM
$100 buys you a really sweet piece of history, AND a funtioning gun. Another $100 buys 440 rounds, more than you'd likely shoot in several years. What's not to like?

I mean seriously....

This... ^^^^ is what separates a Mosin from everything else.

Maybe you don't like feel of anything other than Turkish walnut on your cheek and silk on your tush and have no use for one, but as tens of millions of persons, on both ends of a Mosin, can attest they get the job done.

caribou
November 25, 2012, 11:15 PM
Some folks here obviously misssed out onthe early 90's when Century sold M-24's, m-27's and M-28's in bundles of 5, listed with "cracked stocks and missing parts" that were often missing cracks and maybe a screw , band or cleaning rod, and the rust you thought would come with 'em. 5 for 100$

Good shape'd M91's, M-24's, M-27's, M-28's for 50-75$ each

Or M28/30's for 85$:banghead:

Or M-39's in the early 2000's that were 90$ each???

Or the M-44's , in paper wrap with strings and such fro 60$

Now 91/30's are past the 100$ mark, and ammo sources are gonna dry up, just like .303, .30-06, 8mm Mauser, ect, ect, ect....

:cuss:get 'em while ya can!!!

JR47
November 27, 2012, 06:22 PM
The Mosin-Nagant can still be found in arsenal-rebuilt condition, for around $100.00. Try to find a Mauser K98, even the fatally flawed last ditch rifles for that. Or an Enfield.

The reason is because the Russians manufactured literally millions of them, and kept them after repair. THERE is your $100.00 rifle's pedigree.

Try shooting that $100.00 K98 with 1940's ammunition today, and let us all know how accurate it is.

Perhaps there are still some veterans from both sides of the Eastern Front around that one could talk to and compare how the two worked.

Nobody actually cares whether one likes the Mosin, or not. That's a choice that is to be made. However, if you've never owned, or shot, one, please don't wax eloquent on why they don't work as compared to anything else. In all too many cases, the fact is that the person hating them simply cannot shoot well enough to do them justice. Instead of improving their skills, they hide behind a diatribe, saying that "these rifles are junk".

Let's face it, the chances of even the haters actually shooting anything but paper run from slim to none. If the almighty paper is all that you consider, there are NO issue guns that will make remarkable groups today outside of sniper weapons.

AethelstanAegen
November 28, 2012, 01:12 PM
ow 91/30's are past the 100$ mark, and ammo sources are gonna dry up, just like .303, .30-06, 8mm Mauser, ect, ect, ect....

Except that 7.62x54r is still a military issue round in several countries. So unlike .30-06 and 8mm Mauser, there are still factories churning out 7.62x54r for military stockpiles. That said everything seems to be going up in price anyways, so I plan to stock up. 7.62x54r is going to stay cheaper than other full bore rounds for a lot longer.

BuntlineSpecial
November 28, 2012, 08:50 PM
I've owned a half-dozen or so Mosens, they are a dependable, cheap rifle with a hard-hitting, inexpensive ammo. To me the best feature of them, though is their simplcity. As I have told more than one person, there is not one part of this rifle you cannot disassemble and fix with nothing more than a swiss army knife and a little common sense.

Swampman
November 29, 2012, 05:34 AM
"there is not one part of this rifle you cannot disassemble and fix with nothing more than a swiss army knife and a little common sense."

Ahem...

+ a HAMMER... :)
(Usually no sickle required)

Worm
December 4, 2012, 08:50 AM
Um they suck and I think everyone should stop buying them, they are worthless....................



<hopes they buy that so I can buy more>

brnmw
December 4, 2012, 09:54 AM
All the above mentioned reason for owning one pretty much fit the bill. I have heard of them not being very accurate, although I personally have yet to find one that is that bad to make it a negative. I own M1891/30's and a Nagant Revolver and love them all. No they are not the most precise mfr. guns in the world and some of that ruggedness is why I love them. I guess you could say it is a "cult" following, but it's one that I am proud to actually be a part of.

So I ask what is the harm in buying one? Worst case senario is you buy it $100, you hate it, you sell it (you use what money you got and buy more ammo for something else).... I end up with another Mosin! :D

MCgunner
December 4, 2012, 10:05 AM
Mosins are about the last mil surp that can be had truly cheap. But, I did see a 1917 Enfield the other day at a pawn shop for 200 bucks, not bad. I know the SKSs that were cheap when I got mine have escalated beyond bargain status.

Dr. Sandman
December 7, 2012, 12:38 PM
Sorry, guys, I have not read the entire thread, but did somebody mention that the reason why Mosins are popular is their low price point? I want to make sure that point has been covered.

theotherwaldo
December 7, 2012, 01:23 PM
My '34 Isvest is fun to shoot and is surprisingly accurate - even with me shooting it.

Of course, the trigger and sear came out of a Finn M39. :cool:

hang fire
December 7, 2012, 01:25 PM
I have two, a prebubbaed one I paid 25 bucks for and is my dedicated truck gun. The other is a $150.00 Sako Finn M39, which with milsurp heavy ball is very accurate. How accurate? So accurate it has been known to bring tears to other shooters who find their many times more expensive rifles outclassed by a gun they despise.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y92/TANSTAAFL-2/P1010407-22.jpg

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y92/TANSTAAFL-2/P1010273.jpg

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