Suppressed Rifles


PDA






NEW TO THE GAME
November 24, 2012, 04:34 AM
I saw a couple of vids on the youtube, of suppressed .44 mags, .357 mags, and even a suppressed .3030. Does suppressing a rifle of these or any cartridges for that matter slow the bullet down or effect the performance in anyway? I'm sure it would, just seems like it. Does it matter if the rifle is permanently suppressed or if the suppressor is the removable type? And what the heck is subsonic ammo? Is supper fast, super quiet, as powerful as regular ammo, weaker, what???? And how is this related to a suppressed weapon? :confused:

If you enjoyed reading about "Suppressed Rifles" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
madcratebuilder
November 24, 2012, 05:03 AM
A quality suppressor well have minimal effect on accuracy. Sub sonic ammo eliminate the "crack" of the bullet breaking the sound barrier. Sub's with a high end suppressor is very quiet, air gun quiet.

winfried
November 24, 2012, 11:31 AM
A silencer designed by guesswork engineering (which almost all silencers are) might affect accuracy negatively o a degree.

A proper designed and custom attached silencer for high powered rifles will in most cases improve accuracy, reduce recoil and of course be very silent.

The faster the bullet, the more feasible is a silencer. (contrary to common uneducated/inexperienced peoples opinion)

Regards

WAH

SilentScream
November 24, 2012, 08:17 PM
Just remember the negative effects if you plan on suppressing an auto loader e.g. increased parts wear/breakdown on recoil assemblies, bolt groups, etc.
The more efficient(quiet) the suppressor the more wear & tear on the rifle (or pistol).

crazy-mp
November 24, 2012, 09:34 PM
Just remember the negative effects if you plan on suppressing an auto loader

Or...

You use a gas piston system or switch block to reduce the amount of gas needed to operate the weapon and reduce your "wear and tear." Many manufacturers are also working on suppressors that will reduce the amount of back pressure that is put on a gun.

The faster the bullet, the more feasible is a silencer.

Yeah but that's not the cool thing, its better to have a slow inaccurate bullet that is quiet don't ya know? :cool:

wally
November 24, 2012, 10:54 PM
Sub sonic ammo eliminate the "crack" of the bullet breaking the sound barrier.

Yes, but IMHO with sub-sonic ammo in a rifle you might as well be shooting a pistol caliber carbine or handgun.


However even with the supersonic crack a suppressed rifle is a lot more pleasant to shoot for both the shooter and bystanders.

My wife won't go near an AR because of the flash and blast, but suppressed she has fun shooting it because its like an unsuppressed .22lr in terms of flash and blast -- relatively un-scarry, the flinch factor is largely removed.

Mencius
November 26, 2012, 11:19 AM
Ok, I get that I am new to suppressors and have never owned or operated one, but I don't get the following two points.

Just remember the negative effects if you plan on suppressing an auto loader e.g. increased parts wear/breakdown on recoil assemblies, bolt groups, etc.

How does a suppressor increase parts wear on an autoloader? Does it create more pressure by, essentially, increasing the barrel length?

The faster the bullet, the more feasible is a silencer.

I am not really sure what this means. I understand that if you are already supersonic being faster probably won't make any difference. But, why is faster better with a suppressor?

Acera
November 26, 2012, 01:45 PM
Does suppressing a rifle of these or any cartridges for that matter slow the bullet down or effect the performance in anyway?

No that is a myth propagated by the video game crowd who sometimes get penalized in games for having them. Modern suppressors do not touch the bullet in flight (unlike old ones which had wipes) so there is nothing to slow it down, or effect it's performance.

The increased back pressure from using a suppressor can increase wear on internal parts in guns not designed for them. You will note that most piston kits have a reduced gas setting for using a can.

NG VI
November 26, 2012, 04:42 PM
It's also a throwback to older weapons which were designed specifically as a suppressed platform, and would have what is known as an integral suppressor that is a built-in component with the barrel. They would generally have exhaust ports in the barrel much closer to the chamber than you would normally see, so those weapons would actually end up delivering reduced velocity with a given cartridge compared to a similar weapon with an ordinary, non-ported barrel.

If you start bleeding off the gas used to power the projectile a quarter of the way down the barrel, then you will see less velocity out of that cartridge than you would from a barrel that maintains full pressure and gas volume for the entire length of the barrel.

W.E.G.
November 26, 2012, 05:22 PM
Gas-blowback down the bore, and into my eyes, from the AR15 was unsatisfactory.

Here is a screencapture image from a video I found on the internet which demonstrates the magnitude of the issue consistent with my experience.

http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd7/rkba2da/rifle%20pics/AR-15/suppressorsilencergasface.jpg

Damage from baffle strikes, and the price of repairs were a drag too.

http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd7/rkba2da/rifle%20pics/AR-15/HALOcrack1.jpg

winfried
November 27, 2012, 07:28 AM
Ok, I get that I am new to suppressors and have never owned or operated one, but I don't get the following two points.



How does a suppressor increase parts wear on an autoloader? Does it create more pressure by, essentially, increasing the barrel length?



I am not really sure what this means. I understand that if you are already supersonic being faster probably won't make any difference. But, why is faster better with a suppressor?
A super sonic bullet of a given size will create a disturbance whether traveling Mach 1 or Mach 3, but a faster bullet will have a shorter flight time and thus the duration of the disturbance is less.

Further as the mach angle changes with increasing velocity, the position of the shooter is more difficult to detect.

Regards

Winfried

winfried
November 27, 2012, 07:42 AM
In a properly silencer the pressure is about 2-3 bar for .223 in .308 about 8 bar and in .300 Win Mag only 14 bar. (1 bar about 15psi)

Problem is there is only one scientifically designed silencer in the world which is copied quite often, but not in the USA.

The problem of additional wear and virtually no back pressure has been sorted out about 30 years ago on rifles that is.

However pistols other than blow back system would have more wear on the barrel bushing due to extra weight and overhang of the silencer.

I have shot AR-15 and M-16 extensively semi and full auto no problem with blow-back, but the AR-15/M-16 system feed hot gases into the bolt with or without silencer.

In Ak and related system the bolt does not heat up because the hot gas never gets into the bolt and can fire full auto until the silencer is red hot. Not sure how the H&K system will stand up to such abuse since I have not tested a G-3 continuous rapid fire but I can see no reason why it should not.

Regards

Winfried

NEW TO THE GAME
November 27, 2012, 10:41 PM
No that is a myth propagated by the video game crowd who sometimes get penalized in games for having them. Modern suppressors do not touch the bullet in flight (unlike old ones which had wipes) so there is nothing to slow it down, or effect it's performance.

The increased back pressure from using a suppressor can increase wear on internal parts in guns not designed for them. You will note that most piston kits have a reduced gas setting for using a can.
Thanx

NEW TO THE GAME
November 27, 2012, 11:11 PM
It's also a throwback to older weapons which were designed specifically as a suppressed platform, and would have what is known as an integral suppressor that is a built-in component with the barrel. They would generally have exhaust ports in the barrel much closer to the chamber than you would normally see, so those weapons would actually end up delivering reduced velocity with a given cartridge compared to a similar weapon with an ordinary, non-ported barrel.

If you start bleeding off the gas used to power the projectile a quarter of the way down the barrel, then you will see less velocity out of that cartridge than you would from a barrel that maintains full pressure and gas volume for the entire length of the barrel.
haha that's funny

NEW TO THE GAME
November 27, 2012, 11:14 PM
Quote:
"The Les Baer 1911 feels like a man's tool, no doubt about it.
...you may want to re-word that.


HAHAHAHAHA that's funny!!

Ranb
November 29, 2012, 01:00 AM
Does suppressing a rifle of these or any cartridges for that matter slow the bullet down or effect the performance in anyway? I'm sure it would, just seems like it.

The bullet only slows down if it touches the baffles or wipes. Baffles usually widener than the bullet by .025 to .050 so they never touch unless the bullet yaws (too slow of a twist) or the silencer is mounted improperly. Wipes are rubber disks with X shaped slots cut in them. The bullet punches through and the gases are trapped better then the slots close back up. They degrade accuracy and velocity and wear out quickly (a few mags) whereas a silencer equipped with baffles will last thousands of rounds unless overheated.

Does it matter if the rifle is permanently suppressed or if the suppressor is the removable type?

Sometimes. A detachable silencer can be moved from gun to gun as long as it is a suitable caliber and strong enough and has the same threads/mount. This is very common. I use my 22lr, 223 and 308 cans on multiple guns. Some silencers are integral to the barrel to improve suppression, usually with a ported barrel.

And what the heck is subsonic ammo? Is supper fast, super quiet, as powerful as regular ammo, weaker, what????

Subsonic ammo is ammo that does not go faster than the speed of sound, or the opposite of supersonic. Some standard ammo is subsonic such as 38 special, target grade 22lr, 22short and 45 acp while others like 9mm (115 rain and 125 grain) and most rifle ammo is supersonic. Most any ammo is easy to load to subsonic speeds.

And how is this related to a suppressed weapon?

There are several factors which account for the amount of noise a gun makes at the muzzle. Bore width, gas pressure and gas volume. Decrease them and noise generally goes down. A small silencer bore traps more gas and noise. Less gas pressure means less pop when the bullet leaves and less volume means less noise duration.

For large bore guns, reducing the powder charge is a great way to reduce noise whether it is suppressed or unsuppressed. Supersonic ammo creates a shock wave just as a fighter jet does or the space shuttle did. It sounds like a whip cracking which is exactly what the tip of a whip does when you whip it, it is moving faster than the speed of sound and makes a shock wave that is rather loud and reflects off of anything it moves past. A bullet moving faster than 1150 feet per second (depending on temperature) makes a shock wave the entire distance it is moving supersonic and this wave bounces off of anything nearby which accounts for the echoes you hear when shooting in the woods or at a rifle range.

So if I compare a subsonic 22lr to a high velocity 22lr, I get much less noise with the subsonic mostly due to the lack of a sonic boom and less in part to the lower powder charge. If I compare a standard subsonic 45 acp load shooting a 230 RN to a supersonic load with a 185 TMJ with the same powder charge, I also get much less noise due to the lack of a sonic boom. A suppressed subsonic 308 with a 12 grain charge is much less noisy than a supersonic 308 with a 45 grain load due to powder charge and n sonic boom.

A silencer designed by guesswork engineering (which almost all silencers are) might affect accuracy negatively o a degree.

Any silencer equipped with cone or K baffles is going to work well as long as it has enough volume. If it is mounted properly and has a symmetrical blast baffle it is very unlikely to degrade accuracy. You will need a very accurate rifle and good ammo to determine if it improves accuracy due to increased barrel tension in my opinion.

Just remember the negative effects if you plan on suppressing an auto loader e.g. increased parts wear/breakdown on recoil assemblies, bolt groups, etc.
The more efficient(quiet) the suppressor the more wear & tear on the rifle (or pistol).

This is not always so. If you are able to adjust gas pressure, recoil spring strength and/or buffer weight, then you will not get any significantly increased wear on the rifle at all.

Yes, but IMHO with sub-sonic ammo in a rifle you might as well be shooting a pistol caliber carbine or handgun.

I disagree. Most rifle bullets offer significantly better BCs than a pistol bullet which is important when shooting past 200 yards subsonic due to the high arc. Accuracy in a rifle (in my hands) always beats a pistol.

Ranb

If you enjoyed reading about "Suppressed Rifles" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!