Lazzeroni-who buys them?


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Elkins45
November 24, 2012, 09:05 AM
I requested a brochure from Lazzeroni some years ago and it seems I must have given them my email address because I occasionally get emails from them. One came yesterday announcing Black Friday deals on their rifles.

Out of curiosity I clicked the link. Wow, the prices were much higher than I remembered, and I remembered them as being pretty high...like $6K for the base model gun w/o optics.

Who buys these things? I seriously wonder how they can move enough guns to stay in business from year to year. Most folks I know who would even consider dropping that kind of money on a gun wouldn't spend it on a black stocked field gun. They would pay for finely figured wood, engraving, deep blue polished metal, etc.

Any Lazzeroni users on THR? I don't doubt they are great performers, but are they really THAT much better?

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H&Hhunter
November 24, 2012, 10:05 AM
I've never even seen a Lazzeroni in real life or know anybody who's ever used one. But I'm sure he has a commited customer base.

Liberty1776
November 24, 2012, 10:37 AM
The only Lazzeroni rifle I've ever actually seen was at our gun range a few years back. This was back in the day when I believe Lazzeroni's were made on Savage actions. Two guys were trying to sight it in and it was quite an ordeal.

They didn't have much experience shooting any kind of rifle and went right into deer hunting with one of the .30 caliber rifles. This nuclear-powered Saturn rocket of a cartridge was a little problematic - rather than a tamer plinker like, oh, say.... the .300 Winchester Magnum... they finally got it on paper by using a 4x6 foot piece of backing paper.

Not the gun's fault, they were inexperienced and wanted to struggle through with it and I have to give them credit for doing so. Oh, wait - your original post... ok, I'm done wandering. Me, myself - I can't see what they give over a .300 Weatherby and I couldn't justify that kind of money without, as you say, incredible walnut and outstanding checkering.

helotaxi
November 24, 2012, 11:28 AM
Who buys these things? I seriously wonder how they can move enough guns to stay in business from year to year. Most folks I know who would even consider dropping that kind of money on a gun wouldn't spend it on a black stocked field gun. They would pay for finely figured wood, engraving, deep blue polished metal, etc.Your friends are not the Lazzeroni target market. He makes his rifles for the long range big game hunter that cares only about how the rifle performs, not how it looks. Long range hunters would consider eyewash like "full figured maple" wasted money since it doesn't help the rifle shoot or carry better and wood's sensitivity to humidity and temperature changes can actually hamper the rifle's performance. His rifles are all chambered in his proprietary cartridges which he spec'd out to be the fastest cartridges in the given caliber available. That matters to some.

Now that said, would I buy one? No. Would I spend that much on a custom rifle? Yes, but by forgoing the proprietary cartridge and the last couple FPS that come from it, I could get a very similar rifle with many of the other features in a more common chambering with better brass availability that will shoot just as well, though maybe not as far, for less money.

Elkins45
November 25, 2012, 09:47 AM
Your friends are not the Lazzeroni target market. He makes his rifles for the long range big game hunter

How many of those people are there, and how often do they need a new rifle? I understand how some of the boutique sniper rifle makers stay in business because they get government contracts, but how Lazzeroni can move enough rifles in a year to keep the doors open is a mystery to me.

His rifles are all chambered in his proprietary cartridges which he spec'd out to be the fastest cartridges in the given caliber available. That matters to some.

I wonder if that's more of the attraction than the rifles themselves?

Kachok
November 26, 2012, 06:51 PM
^ Mall ninjas keep them in buisness, here is a hint, if you need more speed than a 300 Ultra Mag you are doing something very very wrong :)

jmorris
November 27, 2012, 10:26 PM
Some look at cost as a non issue. If you think $6k is insane for a precision rifle, you should price high end shotguns, a "sporter" can easily cost twice that, used.

rcmodel
November 27, 2012, 10:32 PM
Somehow to me "precision rifle" and "way over-bore" are oxymoron's.

But what do I know.

I do know though that back in my day, a real U.S. Army sniper or match shooter would burn the barrel out on a .300 Warbird before he got done coon-fingering the scope adjustments the first day he had it to play with!!

rc

helotaxi
November 27, 2012, 11:38 PM
Some look at cost as a non issue. If you think $6k is insane for a precision rifle, you should price high end shotguns, a "sporter" can easily cost twice that, used.
Yep, $6k is pocket change for some. Lazzeroni rifles aren't really all that expensive. About the same price as a McMillan. Gunwerks rifles go for about the same. Custom rifles aren't cheap. You usually get what you pay for, though.

Davek1977
November 28, 2012, 06:24 AM
High-end markets exist for anything....You might not want to spend 100k+ on a fancy sports car, but that doesn't mean there aren't people out there who will. You may be content in a double wide, as I am am, but that doesn't mean that 1.5 million dollar mansion was a waste of money to the guy who built it. I can kill a deer with my $100 SKS, but that doesn't mean that the Lazzeroni doesn't have its market. "Needs" have little to do with it......"Because I can" is enough reason...and should be enough reason....to own anything one can afford

oneounceload
November 28, 2012, 09:24 AM
How many of those people are there, and how often do they need a new rifle? I understand how some of the boutique sniper rifle makers stay in business because they get government contracts, but how Lazzeroni can move enough rifles in a year to keep the doors open is a mystery to me.


It might be a VERY small shop

Some of the high-end gun makers, especially in the shotgun world, only have 4 or 5 employees, including the owner; they turn out maybe a few dozen guns per year at prices that allow them to remain in business

jmorris
November 28, 2012, 10:02 AM
Somehow to me "precision rifle" and "way over-bore" are oxymoron's.

But what do I know.



I've read enough of your posts to know that you have quite a bit of knowledge.

This is from their website.

*
All Lazzeroni rifles (except calibers .416 and larger) are guaranteed to shoot minute of angle or less to 600+ yards with proper bullet/scope selection or they do not leave our factory.

While maybe not quite "benchrest" I think we both could call 6<" at 600 yards "precision".

rcmodel
November 28, 2012, 11:54 AM
I wasn't saying they were not precision.

I was saying a sniper or match shooter would burn the barrel out in practice before they got tuned up real good.

Then have to rebarrel and start all over again.

rc

Arkansas Paul
November 28, 2012, 11:58 AM
Lazzeroni-who buys them?

Folks with more money than me.
I have no issue with it though. If I could afford it, I prolly wouldn't own a Lazzeroni, but I would own some expensive firearms, no doubt.

Kachok
November 28, 2012, 10:55 PM
If I was going to spend that kind of money I would get an AI rifle instead. They are record holding real world sniper weapons that shoot much more proven cartrages. I could never see cramming 120gr of powder in a 30 cal!!!
My 308 likes 44.5gr of Varget that is plenty enough for me :)

helotaxi
November 28, 2012, 11:57 PM
To each his own. I'd never even consider buying an AI. Don't care what the snipers are using. The record owning sniper in the US military shot a Win M70. "Proven" in a cartridge is overrated as well. It's been "proven" that the Lazzeroni cartridges have more muzzle velocity than others in the same caliber. That has "proven" to carry more energy downrange and exhibit less wind drift.

Kachok
November 29, 2012, 01:31 AM
To each his own. I'd never even consider buying an AI. Don't care what the snipers are using. The record owning sniper in the US military shot a Win M70. "Proven" in a cartridge is overrated as well. It's been "proven" that the Lazzeroni cartridges have more muzzle velocity than others in the same caliber. That has "proven" to carry more energy downrange and exhibit less wind drift.
You might want to check the latest record books. Whitefeather's record has been beaten a few times in the past few years.
http://www.itstactical.com/shooting/longest-sniper-shot-record-broken/
AI 338 Lapua holds the record 1.54 MILES!
By time you work up a decent load for your 7.82 Warbird you are already needing a new barrel and you have to start all over again :D

RhinoDefense
November 29, 2012, 02:25 AM
According to the ATF manufacturing report, Lazzeroni Inc manufactured and registered only 27 rifles in 2010, which is the latest year the ATF has data. Scroll down to Rifles Manufactured in 2010, then look alphabetically for Arizona and then Lazzeroni.

http://www.atf.gov/statistics/download/afmer/2010-final-firearms-manufacturing-export-report.pdf

helotaxi
November 29, 2012, 10:05 AM
You might want to check the latest record books. Whitefeather's record has been beaten a few times in the past few years.
http://www.itstactical.com/shooting/longest-sniper-shot-record-broken/
AI 338 Lapua holds the record 1.54 MILES!
By time you work up a decent load for your 7.82 Warbird you are already needing a new barrel and you have to start all over again :D
Talking numbers, not distance.

Kachok
November 30, 2012, 02:17 AM
Talking numbers, not distance.
Well if you are going by sheer numbers the AK47 is the best sniper rifle in the world because it has killed ALOT more people :D
Love my Model 70 but it is no AI 338 Lapua that is another class of rifle for sure.

billymarr
November 30, 2012, 10:01 AM
My neighbor bought the war bird in 30 cal then asked me to reload for him after buying one box. He still shoot it still on the same reloads 6 years later. IIRC one pound of powder lasted like 40 rounds. He uses it once a year brings home one deer. No I did not pull the trigger he out weighs me by 20lbs and it rocked him hard.

helotaxi
November 30, 2012, 12:34 PM
. He uses it once a year brings home one deer. That is the Lazzeroni target market, though usually elk, sheep, goats and that type of animal, not deer, are the target.

WardenWolf
November 30, 2012, 09:38 PM
Looking at some of his stuff on Gunbroker, he seems like another P.O. Ackley. Lots of his own custom cartridges. Though instead of fire-forming brass, he produces it new and headstamps it.

dubbleA
November 30, 2012, 11:35 PM
I was looking for a very hard hitting 30 cal over 20 years ago. The Lazzeroni wasnt even around then, at least not commercially. This was before Weatherby brought out their 30-378 too. I wound up building a 300 Kong (basically a 308-378 WBY Improved. I had Bill Keys of the RCBS custom shop make me a set of dies, bought me a few hundred pieces of 378 Wby brass and 8lb kegs of slowest consumer powders. The rifle shot wonderful with the then new Nosler Ballistic Tips. 180's at 3500 and 165's at 3600fps. Even if the Lazzeroni's were available then I think I would have still taken the WBY over it just due to the brass availabilty. The performance is a moot point.

Like already stated there are different wants,needs, budgets across the board. I would'nt put someone down just because a he/she wanted absolute top performance in a rifle and willing to pay for it.

Then there are some that always bring up barrel life. Changing barrels isnt a big deal, guys that are serious over bore/volume shooters know this before getting into it, no suprises there.

I would venture to say that average hunter /weekend enthusist wont ever shoot enough to actually wear a tube out. (though cleaning it improperly every time they shoot probably does more harm} Hardcore varmint hunters can shoot out a barrel's throat in a week in a good prarie dog town.

Performance comes with a price, burning copius amounts of powder through relatively small bores equates to short barrel life. The law of diminishing returns comes to mind here big time.

If you dont accept these things then a Lazzeroni rifles/high performance cartridges isnt for you. Grandpa's 30WFC 1894 Winchester can kill a trophy of a life time just as dead as a Warbird chambered Lazzeroni rifle. Different strokes for different folks.

I recall that Sako used to chamber it's M995 in the Warbird.


To each their own.........

Kachok
December 1, 2012, 12:33 AM
I think the law of diminishing returns really kicks in after 300Win/WSM I can still get about 2,000 rounds of good accuracy out of them before I need a barrel swap, and that is several good years of shooting/hunting for me. Would I benefit from an extra 300fps....sure but the price far outweighs any advantage at that point. The world record 10 shot 1,000yd group is held by a 300 WSM which is still plenty powerful at any range I dare shoot, I consider that to be the ultimate long range cartrage, but to each his own.

MachIVshooter
December 1, 2012, 03:49 AM
I wasn't saying they were not precision.

I was saying a sniper or match shooter would burn the barrel out in practice before they got tuned up real good.

Then have to rebarrel and start all over again.

This.

The 7.82 warbird pushes any bullet about 200 FPS faster than it's nearest competitors, the .300 RUM and .30-378 Weatherby. Those two are already way over bore capacity and eat throats.

I would be surprised if the best barrel could take 1,000 rounds of the 7.82 warbird without seeing significant throat erosion. 1,000 rounds is nothing for someone who is serious about precsion shooting.

jmorris
December 1, 2012, 08:34 AM
You fellows might be interested in this article.


http://www.6mmbr.com/barrelcost.html


As noted above, a PPC barrel is typically replaced at 700-800 rounds. A 6.5-284 barrel can last 1,300+ rounds, but it might need replacement after 1,000 rounds or less.

MachIVshooter
December 2, 2012, 04:52 PM
As noted above, a PPC barrel is typically replaced at 700-800 rounds. A 6.5-284 barrel can last 1,300+ rounds, but it might need replacement after 1,000 rounds or less.

When winning or losing a match comes down to thousandths of an inch at many hundreds of yards, any degree of accuracy-degrading erosion is unacceptable. For anyone not in serious competition, the change in accuracy these BR guys won't tolerate would be far less than their typical deviation from group to group. An average, decent shooter would get many times more rounds down the barrel before he began to see a noticeable, consistent decrease in accuracy.

What RCmodel is talking about is a serious degredation, something you'll notice even as a casual shooter or hunter. Cartridges this overbore can truly ruin a throat in a few hundred rounds. The Warbird is burning more than 130 grains of powder behind a 180 gr bullet in a .30 cal bore.

jmorris
December 3, 2012, 12:11 AM
I understand, not trying to pick a fight at all but "tuned up" depends on the intended use. I have a lot of hunting rifles that will likely never see 1000 rounds, even after I am long gone.

In any case I bet they would hold their own against a sabot round from a 50 BMG in accuracy, that would be the next closest speed demon.

helotaxi
December 4, 2012, 09:27 AM
.338/50 Talbot. 50BMG case necked down to .338 and "improved". Barrel life of about 250rds. Equals the velocity of the Warbird and a 150gn bullet using a 250gn bullet. And it's a target round.

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