Black Powder update


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brushhippie
November 25, 2012, 06:36 PM
After making this powder for a year now I finally got to test my powder. I first wanted to find out what a full cylinder of powder weighs, (in my 58 NMN)it is actually....14 grains.... and what kinda of speed am I getting...right at 1000 fps! HOLY CRAP! We also weighed out and shot (from a .50 cal caplock rifle) up to 75 grains by weight and achieved 1450 with it, where it took 120 gains of swiss to get these speeds, Im really surprised with these results but extremely pleased! If your not making your own, you really should give it a try!
http://youtu.be/AUVo_hOadyc

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Roooster
November 25, 2012, 06:54 PM
Sweet! Going To Try Making My Own One OF These Days. (soon as kids and grand kids are gone)

rodwha
November 26, 2012, 12:11 AM
You stated a weighed 14 grns in your pistola. I'm curious what kind of volume you get and what granulation it is. Is your '58 a .44 cal pistol?

I certainly like the idea of making my own stuff, but wasn't so interested until you posted the velocity! Wow! I had settled into using Triple 7 for hunting with my ROA.

mykeal
November 26, 2012, 08:02 AM
Chronographs are not calibrated instruments. Don't count on getting the same results. I'd take any internet velocity claims with a large dose of salt.

brushhippie
November 26, 2012, 08:58 AM
Take it with a dose of salt, you know Im just lying about it. Im sure my gunsmith is a retard and knows nothing about chronos. That really cheeses me, do experiments share the results and somebody has to run their mouth. If you got nothin but negetivity, keep it to yourself.

rodwha
November 26, 2012, 09:01 AM
The numbers do seem quite high. I suppose it would be good to try it out on other chronos if possible.
Even were it 10% off and actually producing 900 ft/sec that's pretty good for 14 grns.

brushhippie
November 26, 2012, 09:05 AM
My gunsmith ran the chrono and said he was very surprised, we were running numbers on two different kinds of swiss as well. Im not selling this stuff so I really dont have anything to gain by lying.....but if you dont believe it....dont, go pay 30 bucks a pound.

rodwha
November 26, 2012, 09:08 AM
I don't believe he is claiming that you are lying. He has told me before that chronos can give wide variations of results due to calibration as well as environmental changes. I know nothing about how chronos work and what effects them.

rodwha
November 26, 2012, 09:09 AM
I've seen the video you made a few months back and was quite impressed. It made me want to try it for myself as I like making my own stuff such as the beer I've been brewing for a year now.

rodwha
November 26, 2012, 09:12 AM
I recall from a video how you showed the ignition speed. Wasn't that against commercial BP? What granulations are you using now, then, and against commercial, if indeed IRC?

brushhippie
November 26, 2012, 09:17 AM
I might have questioned the results if he hadnt been dialing in his own and the fact we were burning three different kinds of powder, if he wasnt calling me a liar he was saying myself and my gunsmith (whos been at it for thirty years) dont know what we are doing or are too inept to make sure our equipment is calibrated properly. I do this to promote BP shooting, there are many things stated on this forum I dont agree with, but I dont go out of my way to start crap.

Sorry Rod, it is a .36 caliber and a full load in the cylinder, (just poured in there, not compacted) weighs 14 grains by weight.

rodwha
November 26, 2012, 09:41 AM
Have you made any new videos of making powder and what it took?
Any idea what 14 grns weight is in volume? I'm thinking a .36 cal holds about 25 grns (3F) filled to the brim. Sound right or is it 30?

brushhippie
November 26, 2012, 10:06 AM
The old feller that gave me the recipe told me had tried it all so Ive only used the one. I wouldnt think it would be any more than 30. I dont have a scale or commercial powder so I dont know for sure.

brushhippie
November 26, 2012, 10:07 AM
The old feller that gave me the recipe told me had tried it all so Ive only used the one. I wouldnt think it would be any more than 30. I dont have a scale or commercial powder so I dont know for sure. The next thing I have to try is making it slower for different applications, this powder was sized to 3f.

It doubled my post when I edited

Pulp
November 26, 2012, 11:43 AM
One of my batches gave me 1000+fps in a .44 Navy knock-off. I didn't weigh the charge, just filled the chamber. Like brushippie's powder, mine is considerably lighter than commercial.

When I chrono'd that load I thought to self, "Might be time to back off a bit." Brass frames aren't really made for heavy loads.:)

Jim, West PA
November 26, 2012, 11:51 AM
You guys are makin me wish 'd never parted with my Oehler.
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=172357&d=1348420464

Noz
November 26, 2012, 02:50 PM
No dog in the fight but I have chronoed several black powder charges and got horrible dispersion of speeds. Discovered that you must be very careful or you will be reading returns from the smoke, wad etc.

brushhippie
November 26, 2012, 03:42 PM
These were chrono'd without wads, besides the wads would give you slower results, I think that with the wads they would be even faster as I dont think we are achieving complete compaction without them. Im not fightin, you either use the info or dismiss it. :neener: my powder is bloody fast! ninny ninny :rolleyes:

ofitg
November 27, 2012, 01:00 AM
Brushhippie, 15 grains of homebrew BP to fill up a .36 chamber sounds about right. The homebrew stuff generally has 60-70% the density of factory BP.... kinda light and fluffy..... instead of hard dense little granules, they're more like tiny black marshmallows.

Everything I've seen and read indicates that the lower-density powders burn the fastest, yours may be burning like 4Fg.

brushhippie
November 27, 2012, 07:05 AM
One foot, this is true, I screen it to be 3f but I dont separate the finer stuff out.

Patocazador
November 27, 2012, 09:42 PM
No dog in the fight but I have chronoed several black powder charges and got horrible dispersion of speeds. Discovered that you must be very careful or you will be reading returns from the smoke, wad etc.
The above is correct. I chronographed some different loads out of my Old Army. One cylinder full of black powder loads in cartridge cases gave me readings from 550 fps all the way to 1140 fps. Particles of unburned powder plus smoke can give defective readings. The CHRONY instruction sheet states that muzzleloading guns should be shot 15-25 feet from the screens to avoid that circumstance. I didn't read the instructions prior to doing the shooting.

brushhippie
November 28, 2012, 01:41 AM
Uh huh ....we did read the instructions....you guys....wow.

Pulp
November 28, 2012, 04:59 AM
BH, you know that some folks won't believe stuff even if they did it themselves.;)

brushhippie
November 28, 2012, 08:29 AM
Yea I know I took a bunch of video during the whole session....though it wont actually show the results they were called out after every shot....of course....he could have just made them up or, the machine was broke or we did it all wrong or or or or :neener:

ofitg
November 28, 2012, 11:44 AM
You know, Brushhippie, there will always be nay-sayers. The other people who want the information will be grateful for it.


The Lyman Blackpowder Manual indicates that 15 grains of 4Fg with a .36 round ball should fly around 900 fps...... then you consider, the manufacturers supposedly adjust their powders "downward" for the sake of delivering a consistent product.
1000 fps with your homebrew doesn't seem far-fetched at all.

MCgunner
November 28, 2012, 05:41 PM
I'm gonna gear up to make mine as per your vid. I've got some 16 mesh screen spotted, in the door of my travel trailer. ROFL! Well, I'll buy some, ain't gonna molest the door of the trailer. I don't have facilities to do it, yet, though. I'm going to make my own charcoal, eventually, but for now, I'll order it.

You SURE that 16 mesh is making 3F? Sure getting good results. Weight seems a might light. But, hell, if it works, it works! Don't fix what ain't broke. Soon as I get my shop set up and new chronograph (time to retire the old one, needs screens, is a bit dated) I'll be testing myself. But, sounds like some GOOD stuff. :D I'll have to back off the charge in my brasser, but I reckon the ROA and the Remmy are good for it.

ofitg
November 28, 2012, 08:45 PM
You SURE that 16 mesh is making 3F? Sure getting good results. Weight seems a might light. But, hell, if it works, it works! Don't fix what ain't broke. Soon as I get my shop set up and new chronograph (time to retire the old one, needs screens, is a bit dated) I'll be testing myself. But, sounds like some GOOD stuff. I'll have to back off the charge in my brasser, but I reckon the ROA and the Remmy are good for it.
__________________


MCgunner, back in the 1800s, manufacturers started compressing the moist powder to squeeze the air out and increase the density. According to my books, the modern process entails 1200 psi from a hydraulic press to squeeze a moist wheel-cake from 1-1/4" thickness down to 3/4" thickness. Most of us homebrewers don't have this type of equipment, so our powder is less dense/heavy, more like the powder manufactured prior to the 1800s.

Still works good, though! The only possible drawback might be that our powder granules still have the internal pockets of air, so they will burn up faster than similar-sized factory granules.
The Lyman Blackpowder Handbook lists some "ultra-magnum" loads for .58 rifles, using FFg..... I'd be scared to duplicate these loads with homebrew powder which might burn like 4Fg.

YumaKid
November 28, 2012, 09:50 PM
Which could then, because it's 'fluffy', burn faster and therefore "spike" its pressure peak that much sooner; and therefore cause those "unbelievable" speeds you're chrono is reporting. :D

Or maybe not...... I'm commenting on a subject of which I have no knowledge/experience base. But it's another variable which COULD and SHOULD be explored, from both an educational and safety standpoint.

(Yeah, the "Old Fart" in me is poking its head out of the hole in the ground.)
But, I'm following your YouTube vids; and waiting for Harbor Freight to advertise another sale on their Rock Tumbler/Polishers. I've got a box of Hornaday .451" roundballs that aren't being used since I've moved on to .454's; so the "media" is already waiting for a home. :D

MCgunner
November 28, 2012, 10:52 PM
MCgunner, back in the 1800s, manufacturers started compressing the moist powder to squeeze the air out and increase the density. According to my books, the modern process entails 1200 psi from a hydraulic press to squeeze a moist wheel-cake from 1-1/4" thickness down to 3/4" thickness. Most of us homebrewers don't have this type of equipment, so our powder is less dense/heavy, more like the powder manufactured prior to the 1800s.

Still works good, though! The only possible drawback might be that our powder granules still have the internal pockets of air, so they will burn up faster than similar-sized factory granules.
The Lyman Blackpowder Handbook lists some "ultra-magnum" loads for .58 rifles, using FFg..... I'd be scared to duplicate these loads with homebrew powder which might burn like 4Fg.

Thanks for that info. That makes it more understandable. I do have a press, but I'd have to make some dies or somethin' I guess. I'll just run with what you guys are doing. The thought of compressing black powder kinda gives me the chills, anyway. I do have a chronograph so I'll work with it on my loads. Should keep me out of pressure trouble. Don't have an Ohler with a strain gauge, but I can see if I can duplicate my normal loads with it using less powder. Be more economical if nothing else!

I'm kinda interested in what it will do in the ROA. I stuff that thing full of 777 compressed with a 220 conical and get around 1300 fps. I ain't skirt of the home brew in that gun. :D I shoot my revolvers more'n my rifles, probably just use the stuff in the revolvers if I duplicate these results. Sounds a might fast for a rifle at this point. Better to be safe.

Great thread, regardless of all the bickering! THANKS! Gears in my head are turning, I'm learning here.

Pulp
November 28, 2012, 10:58 PM
One time I took some of my wet BP, spooned it into a piece of PVC that was capped on one end, then took a dowel and used it as a press. I could get probably 25% compression. But I worried about the water being squeezed out, because the KNO3 is dissoved in the water. Would I be losing too much of KNO3. I also worried about regranulating it, as after dry it was very hard.

BTW, that would be a great way to make your own pellets. Compress it a bit, remove the cap, push it on out and cut to length. 'Course you'd have to have PVC that had an inner diameter a bit smaller than the chamber of your guns.

Maybe I need to try that again.

MCgunner
November 28, 2012, 11:20 PM
I've got both these vids bookmarked for reference. Thanks again!

Ah, well, pellets, I never messed with the pellets, just load loose powder. for my rifles, I have these plastic "speed loaders" to take afield when hunting. Works for me.

rodwha
November 28, 2012, 11:27 PM
I'm more for loose powder myself, but i can see the allure were you able to make high powered BP in pellet form to whatever volume/weight your rifle liked most.

brushhippie
November 29, 2012, 08:01 AM
The 16 mesh screen is supposed to be 3f, fly had put the sizing chart up somewhere....Ill see if I can find it and get a link up for ya!
Thats a really good idea Pulp Ill have to try that, my only concern would be getting it to ignite, that stuff gets HARD!
Heres a link to a good sizing chart http://www.skylighter.com/fireworks/help/Black_Powder_Size_Charts.asp


GRADE MESH RANGE
FA 3 - 5
2FA 4 - 12
3FA 10 - 16
4FA 12 - 20
5FA 20 - 50
6FA 30 - 50
7FA 40 - 100
Meal D + 50
Fine Meal + 100
X-Fine Meal +140
Cannon Grade 4-12
1FG 12-20
2FG 16-30
3FG 20-50
4FG 40-100
5FG +100


as you can see there is some overlap, so you could call 16 mesh 3 or 4f, you will find the weight is extremely light, what I was shooting through my cap lock turned out to be 43 grains, which seems light but shot and barked like a hot load....wish Id have had it with me for chrono'ing.

ofitg
March 2, 2013, 11:00 PM
Just saw some posts on the Castboolits forum which reminded me of this old THR thread.

A fellow called "Cal50" has developed a first-class system for compressing his moist BP. If I'm doing ther math correctly, his hydraulic press applies roughly 1500 psi to the puck, slightly more than the pressure used by the big manufacturers -

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?185261-DIY-bp-gurus-will-ineed-to-corn-my-black-poder-for-use-in-cartrides

Rattus58
March 2, 2013, 11:22 PM
After making this powder for a year now I finally got to test my powder. I first wanted to find out what a full cylinder of powder weighs, (in my 58 NMN)it is actually....14 grains.... and what kinda of speed am I getting...right at 1000 fps! HOLY CRAP! We also weighed out and shot (from a .50 cal caplock rifle) up to 75 grains by weight and achieved 1450 with it, where it took 120 gains of swiss to get these speeds, Im really surprised with these results but extremely pleased! If your not making your own, you really should give it a try!
http://youtu.be/AUVo_hOadyc
Hi... is wettable 90/10 sulfur going to work in this process you think?

Aloha... :cool:

ofitg
March 3, 2013, 08:33 PM
Aloha, Rattus58. I tried it once, just to see what would happen. I used "dusting sulfur" from Do-it-Best Hardware (stock # 722367).

It seemed to work just fine. The chrono results were not significantly different, as far as I could tell.

Rattus58
March 3, 2013, 09:54 PM
Aloha, Rattus58. I tried it once, just to see what would happen. I used "dusting sulfur" from Do-it-Best Hardware (stock # 722367).

It seemed to work just fine. The chrono results were not significantly different, as far as I could tell.
Thank you! I can't find any pure sulfer here in Hawaii but have found some 90/10 stuff at a fertilizer wholesale place.

Thank you again.

Much Aloha... Tom

brushhippie
March 4, 2013, 09:51 AM
Hey Rattus, I have heard several people talking about making it sulfurless (I havent tried it myself) but I dont see why it wouldnt work. The way I understand it the Sulfur aids in ignition, so it might be harder to ignite ...but in a revolver I doubt if you would be able to tell, it might slow your speed a little. Good Luck and have fun!

One foot, awesome link thanks! This is exactly what I had in mind as far as compressing powder into pucks. Im about to try this myself.

SleazyRider
March 4, 2013, 11:18 AM
That was an awesome video, Brushhippie, and unlike many YouTube videos, I actually learned something. As a result, I plan to make my own black powder in the future. I really appreciate your posting it. Excellent and highly instructive presentation!

(BTW, your voice reminds me of Jeff Bridges in True Grit. That ain't a Brooklyn accent you've got there, is it? :D)

Rattus58
March 4, 2013, 02:20 PM
Hey Rattus, I have heard several people talking about making it sulfurless (I havent tried it myself) but I dont see why it wouldnt work. The way I understand it the Sulfur aids in ignition, so it might be harder to ignite ...but in a revolver I doubt if you would be able to tell, it might slow your speed a little. Good Luck and have fun!

One foot, awesome link thanks! This is exactly what I had in mind as far as compressing powder into pucks. Im about to try this myself.
Thank you... I was thinking along that line but you know when you are stuck on a lily pad.. :)

Much Aloha... :cool:

ofitg
March 4, 2013, 05:24 PM
One foot, awesome link thanks! This is exactly what I had in mind as far as compressing powder into pucks. Im about to try this myself.

BH, keep us posted! Getting rid of the dextrin and setting up a hydraulic press may be the next big step for us home-brewers.... we can finally move forward into the 19th century :D

Busyhands94
March 4, 2013, 11:07 PM
I had an idea for compressing the powder. My truck weighs 5000 pounds, that aught to be more than enough pressure to make it do what we want it to do. I could probably cut some kind of ramp and use a 9X9 baking pan, and then cut a piece of 1/2" mild steel that fits inside the pan nicely.

As for how to press that sucker, I'm thinking cut a 2X10" piece of lumber that will be wider than my truck. Then put the pan of wet BP in the gutter, stick two bricks laying flat on the mild steel, put the board on there, drive that sucker right onto the board so only the two front tires are on there.

Let's hope it isn't a "hold my beer and watch this" type scenario. :rolleyes:

Logan5579
March 5, 2013, 09:17 AM
Here's a link to an old thread I was reading...the interesting part is on pg 3, post #56 by mec...
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=229197&page=3

Results with two revolvers. Measure calibrated for Goex fffg. The swisss powder is denser and actually weighs more than indicated. 40 grains of goex/ball is a full chamber. Swiss is heavily compressed to make it fit and puts a strain on the loading lever.

velocity extreme spread
Remington
35 Grain Swiss FFFg 1089 33
40 Grains Swiss FFFg 1104 37
40 Grains Pyrodex P 1125 35
*35 Gr/Vol. H777 1061 28

Colt 60 Army
35 Grains Swiss Uberti 1031 48
Same Load Different Day 1020 34

40 Grains Goex FFFg 992 34
40 grains Goex FFFg with Wonder Wad 942 30
40 Grains Swiss FFFg 1042 49
40 Grains Swiss FFFg with Wonder Wad 1055 80

ZVP
March 6, 2013, 01:45 AM
I would be very pleased getting 1000 fps with a 35-40 gr charge of Pyrodex If you do the math on a '58 Remmie that .44 caliber ball moving at 1K is a heck of a powerfull load! I always shoot my '58 with 35 gr and can attest to it's awsome discharge and poser!
Most internet claims are overinflated and normally bragging. I have never clocked any BP load just cause I didn't want to dirty the other guy's
ZVP equipment up.

Jaymo
March 6, 2013, 06:54 PM
BH, those numbers are great. Where can I find your recipe for Holy Black?

brushhippie
March 7, 2013, 08:42 AM
On my youtube channel there are two vids entitled Making Black Powder and making II also on our forum at gunslingersgulch.com Good luck with your own experiments and have fun!

cp11
March 8, 2013, 02:39 PM
When grinding powder, what size and how many balls do you use for say a 200 gram batch?

brushhippie
March 8, 2013, 04:49 PM
Ive got .44s and 32s in mine and Ive got the tumbler about a quarter full
http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd392/brushhippie/grinder_zpsa46acf47.jpg

cp11
March 8, 2013, 10:25 PM
I'm using all 44 balls, but it seems to take a lot longer to grind the powder. my 1st and 2nd batch would leave like little balls of KN03 behind when doing the burn test. Should I be using smaller balls to grind with? I'm using the HF tumbler as well. Thanks for any help.

brushhippie
March 9, 2013, 09:52 AM
I really dont think it would make any difference as far as ball size, if you have kno3 that doesnt have anticlump you might mill it for awhile before addint the other ingredients...or mill it all a little longer. I had a batch that left some small chunksof charcoal in them but no other probs.

cp11
March 9, 2013, 10:00 PM
BH, this last batch I ground for about 16 hours and it was the blackest so far. I could see where putting the smaller balls in might grind the powder faster. With the weight of the bigger balls on the smaller ones. Or am I over thinking this? Thanks!

brushhippie
March 10, 2013, 08:38 AM
No I think it sure could make a difference, I just threw them in cause I had them Im always open to anything that works better! I dont believe you can over think anything!

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