.40 S&W vs. +P 9mm


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DavidB2
November 25, 2012, 10:31 PM
Any thoughts on how +P 9mm ammo performance compares ballistically to .40 when it comes to performance? I am assuming that a CZ75 could shoot +P ammo?

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firesky101
November 25, 2012, 10:55 PM
With premium self defense ammo, I don't think anyone being shot with either would know the difference. But you should expect a lot of opinions for both sides to come flowing in.

mtuchris
November 25, 2012, 11:16 PM
I think (and others may disagree) shot placement will be more important than caliber here. 9mm is cheaper so you can get more practice for your dollar and thus you may be more accurate. I also find the added capacity of 9mm a big plus.

Ehtereon11B
November 25, 2012, 11:24 PM
Shot placement is always king. As mtuchris says. Shooting someone in the arm with a .45 is less effective than shooting someone in the head with a .22

That being said, 9mm has come a long way in the last few years with better tech in SD bullets. I think that is mainly the reason why some people are putting their .45s and .40s back in the safe in lieu of smaller 9mm package.

56hawk
November 25, 2012, 11:28 PM
I still think the 40 S&W is slightly better than the 9mm. Probably not enough to worry about though.

SDGlock23
November 26, 2012, 01:04 PM
The .40 certainly has more potential than the 9mm, but either one will work. Premium JHP in the major calibers (9mm, .40 and .45) are all designed to perform similarly anyways.

PedalBiker
November 26, 2012, 03:07 PM
The CZ is developed for NATO ammunition that is similar to +P commercial ammo. So +p in a CZ 75 is no problem. Plus the 4.7 inch barrel is going to give you about as much velocity as you'll get in a 9mm handgun.


The ammo industry uses something called SAAMI Standards to establish the pressures that ammo should be loaded to. The SAAMI pressure for 9mm Luger ammo is around 35,000 PSI, and C.I.P (think European SAAMI) rates 9mm Luger ammo at 34,080 PSI. According to documentation, the 9mm NATO rounds are pressured at 36,500 PSI (again according to CIP). That means that when compared to standard 9mm ammo, the 9mm NATO ammo is running a higher pressure, analogous to a 9mm +P load, which SAAMI rates around 36,000 PSI.
http://gunnuts.net/2009/04/03/9mm-nato-vs-9mm-luger/


A 9mm +p is still less powerful a 40 given similar loadings and 40 only costs you one or so round capacity.

That said, I am perfectly happy with 9mm (not even +p). Modern loads have improved this cartridge significantly.

CZ57
November 26, 2012, 09:13 PM
PedalBiker, I don't know where that fella got his information, but if he's correct than CIP has lowered their pressure rating for 9mm. I've been studying CIP since the early 90s when Vihta Vouri powders first became available in the U.S. The standard pressure for 9mm that they listed was 36,200 PSI CIP which was almost an exact duplication of the original 9mm pressure spec of 35,700 CUP dating back to 1902 before SAAMI changed it in the U.S. to 35,000 PSI/33,000 CUP for standard pressure and 38,500 PSI for +P which by coincidence happens to be very close to the original design pressure of 35,700 CUP. Accordingly, Vihta Vouri lowered their pressure max in their load guides for the U.S. market until they got down to around 33,000 PSI CIP last time I checked.

Concerning the CZ 75, in Europe you can buy it chambered in 9 X 21mm. At one time they were marketed in the U.S. but didn't catch on here. I believe that Magnum Research was the importer at the time, long before CZ set up their own operation in the U.S. The max pressure rating for the 9 X 21mm in Europe is 42,800 PSI CIP. The only difference between the 9 X 21 and the 9 X 19 is 2 more MMs of case length and a longer OACL. The only difference between CZ 75Bs in 9 X 21 and 9 X19 is a different barrel and a heavier recoil spring. It's pretty much common knowledge that European pistol makers as well as U.S. pistol makers of higher quality pistols are still making these guns for the original pressure spec of 35,700 CUP. CUP = Copper Units of Pressure and is an older form of pressure testing yet it is still in use today. Mainly in loading manuals in data for Magnum Revolvers, but 38,500 PSI (SAAMI +P) and 36,200 PSI CIP are very close to equal when measured in any three of the pressure measuring systems. One reason I have no qualms about using +P ammo in my 9mm pistols. In fact I handload it as I still use a manual where the 9mm pressure standard is 35,700 CUP as well V-V data which is 36,200 PSI CIP.

I point all of this out to hopefully relieve people of their fear in using +P 9mm defense ammo.

Shot placement is the #1 consideration regardless of caliber. With that said, the .40 S&W has a momentum and energy advantage in all cases when you compare common light/medium/heavy bullets in either caliber. For 9mm that would be 115/124/147 and in .40 S&W it would be 135/155 & 165/180. Having said all of that, there are some 9mm loads that come close to leveling the playing field like the 124 gr. +P SPEER Gold Dot, the 127 gr. Ranger +P+, Double Tap 124 gr. +P and the Double Tap 147 gr. +P+ that nearly duplicates the velocity of 155 gr. JHP loads in .40 S&W and has about the highest momentum I'm aware of in a 9mm loaed. Underwood also makes some very potent loads in 9mm. The real question becomes what level of recoil are you comfortable with and that you can shoot with good accuracy. If you can handle +P in 9mm, I'm only attempting to let you know you have nothing to fear in using them. If you plan to shoot them a lot, it might be best to go to a heavier recoil spring by 2 - 3 pounds in weight. It is also comforting when the pistolmaker states in their instruction manual that SAAMI +P is acceptable for use in their pistols when in reality it is no higher in pressure than the original design pressure for the 9 X 19mm, Parabellum, Luger. ;)

coalman
November 27, 2012, 01:40 AM
The heavier one will perform better. I used .40sw for years trying to like shooting it in the compact size guns I CCW. In the end, the .40sw recoil was not offset by it's proven performance advantage over the 147gr 9mm that I use now instead. I know .40sw is better, but I'm better with 9mm.

Dean1818
November 27, 2012, 05:59 AM
In my book the 40 is better, and is what I carry, but I also carried a 9 for awhile.

The trick is to be accurate and shoot more than one round.....

fatcat4620
November 27, 2012, 06:18 AM
Only one has 180 grain loadings...

PabloJ
November 27, 2012, 10:54 AM
I would not loose any sleep if I was armed with 9x19 loaded with +P ammo. I would not buy .40S&W if I had 9Luger already.

Knockdownpower
November 27, 2012, 09:54 PM
Plus One for Winchesters 9mm 127gr +P+ ranger T, great load. The Corbon 115gr DPX is also a top choice. I have no experence with the .40S&W, but it's by far the most used LE duty caliber in the country.

Jaymo
November 28, 2012, 12:30 AM
And the .45 has more potential than the .40.
With modern HP design, the 9mm had really come into it's own.
I've been carrying a 9mm a LOT more than a .45 lately. I've shot quite a few .40s, and it's a good round. I still prefer 9mm.
Both should serve you well, with high quality HP ammo and proper shot placement.

Lord willing, none of us will ever have to shoot another person.

1SOW
November 28, 2012, 03:29 AM
See: http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm
http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Misc_Images/DocGKR/Handgun_gel_comparison.jpg

coalman
November 28, 2012, 03:37 AM
I really wish people would stop using that image. The 147gr 9mm was NOT fired from a handgun, as was likely fired from an MP5. And, regardless, there's not a reference to what bullet was used; some are better than others. But, the 9mm fans love that image indeed, as do the .40sw camp given penetration vs. ,45acp. Anyway, here's the annotated one:
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-hjVXUgcZ_nA/Tin5tNNUYbI/AAAAAAAAEwQ/6n7rkPIpSjg/s800/NOTATION-Handgun_gel_comparison.jpg

firesky101
November 28, 2012, 06:22 AM
Not sure why that could not be from a handgun. I chronographed the 147gr golden saber a few years ago from a FEG hi-power clone at an average of 1041fps.

CPshooter
November 28, 2012, 10:18 AM
The 147gr 9mm was NOT fired from a handgun, as was likely fired from an MP5.That's a pretty big assumption you're making right there.

Thompsoncustom
November 28, 2012, 12:06 PM
I really wish people would stop using that image. The 147gr 9mm was NOT fired from a handgun, as was likely fired from an MP5. And, regardless, there's not a reference to what bullet was used; some are better than others. But, the 9mm fans love that image indeed, as do the .40sw camp given penetration vs. ,45acp. Anyway, here's the annotated one:

I'm not gonna say that image is accurate by any means but a 147gr going 1050fps out of a CZ75b is not only possible but easy. I reload all my ammo and my favorite 9mm load is a 173gr .357 bullet sized down which I push at 750-800fps most of the time but I have loaded it to just over 1000fps through the CZ.

Also the standard 9mm CZ75b has no problems with pressures of 42500psi as when I load +p+ ammo for it that is were I stop I have yet to see anything negative from it.

Skribs
November 28, 2012, 01:34 PM
Coalman is right that bullet design isn't displayed, but I disagree with your statement on how the different bullets penetrated. The reason they all penetrated the same is because they're designed to. You'll notice that the difference is in bullet width (okay, the 165-grain bullet looks like it didn't expand very well).

Certaindeaf
November 28, 2012, 04:29 PM
I'm not gonna say that image is accurate by any means but a 147gr going 1050fps out of a CZ75b is not only possible but easy. I reload all my ammo and my favorite 9mm load is a 173gr .357 bullet sized down which I push at 750-800fps most of the time but I have loaded it to just over 1000fps through the CZ.

Also the standard 9mm CZ75b has no problems with pressures of 42500psi as when I load +p+ ammo for it that is were I stop I have yet to see anything negative from it.
Cool. I've been loading heavy bullets for my Hi-Powers for over thirty years.. mainly SWC.

Bovice
November 28, 2012, 09:47 PM
Lol even if the 9mm was fired from something larger, the wound track for the 45 is still bigger.

Good enough? Maybe! Certainly not the best!

2zulu1
November 30, 2012, 05:04 PM
I'm going to refer back to this, VihtaVuori #4 (2006) limits their load pressures for the 9x19/21 to a CIP 34,075psi. To be effective, not all 9mm ammunition needs to loaded to +P or +P+ pressures to compete with the 40, Hornady's 124gr XTP comes to mind. The 124gr XTP is also an example why bullet design/construction is a more important consideration in ammunition selection than making a blanket assumption about energy/momentum. While the standard pressure 124gr XTP doesn't have the energy numbers of other 9/40 choices, it still delivers ~14+" of penetration and its a reliable expander.

As a handloader, I stopped buying 124gr Gold Dots years ago because as velocity increased, the 124s over expanded thus reducing penetration.

http://i1103.photobucket.com/albums/g474/aztrekker511/124GD1268fps003.jpg

By contrast, the design/construction of the 124gr XTP allows it to perform in the high 1200 to low 1300s, very doable. Another choice is to load the shallow cavity 125gr Gold Dot that's designed for 357SIG velocities.

http://i1103.photobucket.com/albums/g474/aztrekker511/9mm125grSpeerGoldDot1289fps4layerdenim006.jpg

This HS-7 loading chronographed at 1289fps, but I've loaded to 1317fps and stayed w/i published load data;


http://i1103.photobucket.com/albums/g474/aztrekker511/9mm125grSpeerGoldDot1289fps4layerdenim008.jpg

Now comes the very interesting part, VihtaVuori 3N38 powder takes the 147gr bullet to a much higher level and does so keeping operating pressures under 34,075psi. The 147gr XTPs I've tested held together, 1155fps (ES 08fps, SD 03fps) with under max powder weight loads, but VihtaVuori max powder weight loads have tested over 1200fps and stayed w/i standard pressures.

While Underwood and Buffalo Bore offer 147gr +P+ ammunition for sale, the handloader, with the right powder can match or exceed those velocities at standard pressures.

The handloaded HS-7 9mm/125gr Gold Dot @1317fps is heads up with the above 357 SIG gel picture posted above. :)

Skribs
November 30, 2012, 05:33 PM
I'm waiting for someone to post the addition of the 10mm round to that chart, complete with the nuclear blast wound profile.

481
November 30, 2012, 10:59 PM
The 147gr 9mm was NOT fired from a handgun, as was likely fired from an MP5.

How do you know for certain what that 147 gr JHP was fired from?

That velocity (1032 fps) is well within the capacity of the 9mm cartridge for 147 gr JHPs - in fact, my Glock 19 routinely launches standard pressure Hornady 147 gr XTPs and Federal 147 gr HydraShoks at speeds well in excess of that figure.

481
November 30, 2012, 11:13 PM
The 124gr XTP is also an example why bullet design/construction is a more important consideration in ammunition selection than making a blanket assumption about energy/momentum. While the standard pressure 124gr XTP doesn't have the energy numbers of other 9/40 choices, it still delivers ~14+" of penetration and its a reliable expander.


Good post, 2z1.

Any assumption regarding the performance of a bullet based solely upon a one-dimensional number (like kinetic energy, velocity, or momentum) is bound to result in a flawed assessment of the terminal ballistics involved. Unfortunately, such overly-simplistic approaches find favor with the vast majority of folks for a wide variety of reasons.

Simple numbers (like KE) sell.

1SOW
November 30, 2012, 11:16 PM
I really wish people would stop using that image. The 147gr 9mm was NOT fired from a handgun, as was likely fired from an MP5. And, regardless, there's not a reference to what bullet was used;
Why is that?
Actually, the illustration is pretty good. It's one very small part of the overall discussion.
A poster asked about caliber comparison's so I showed this illustration.
While it's a little "dated", this data is not bogus. Check it out. http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm
In the multi-page discussion, current (for a few years ago) each popular bullet's expansion and penetration is tested and shown.

wally
November 30, 2012, 11:20 PM
The one dimension that is critical is shot placement. With a well placed shot even a .22 is sufficient as two accidentally very well places shots will attest with true one shot drops in the Reagan assignation attempt, whereas a poorly place shot left Reagan not even knowing he was hit until he saw the blood, although it came damn close to killing him a half-hour later.

IMHO use the heaviest round you can shoot well and worry more about your shot placement skills than the ammo you carry.

Skylerbone
November 30, 2012, 11:49 PM
I'm not what I'd consider recoil sensitive. I've fired 400 rounds of .45ACP in a single sitting, 600 40 S&W in another, 200 .357 Mag. and 150 30-06 Springfield in others. I still get fatigued at some point and performance slips but none of it is torturous.

With that out of the way, I load 9mm at the velocities required to reliably expand the specific bullet and not much more. Reducing recoil and recovery time allows faster follow-up shots because if there is a magic bullet from a handgun caliber I believe it's number five or six. Don't mean poor shooting is better in volume, rather four rounds of 9mm on target is better than one round of wundersize.

I don't care about the caliber, I care about the ammo. I don't bother with *+P+++* loads, they don't knock attackers backward and they don't make bigger holes.

56hawk
December 1, 2012, 12:23 AM
Good post, 2z1.

Any assumption regarding the performance of a bullet based solely upon a one-dimensional number (like kinetic energy, velocity, or momentum) is bound to result in a flawed assessment of the terminal ballistics involved. Unfortunately, such overly-simplistic approaches find favor with the vast majority of folks for a wide variety of reasons.

Simple numbers (like KE) sell.

Or penetration depth in ballistic gel. That's the one I am finding the most annoying lately.

481
December 1, 2012, 01:28 AM
Or penetration depth in ballistic gel. That's the one I am finding the most annoying lately.

There's much more to be learned from testing in calibrated ordnance gelatin than just determining the bullet's penetration depth- there's maximum, minimum and average expanded diameter, length, retained weight, volume (and mass within) of the wound cavity, yaw cycle, etc.

56hawk
December 1, 2012, 02:16 AM
There's much more to be learned from testing in calibrated ordnance gelatin than just determining the bullet's penetration depth- there's maximum, minimum and average expanded diameter, length, retained weight, volume (and mass within) of the wound cavity, yaw cycle, etc.

Exactly my point.

2zulu1
December 1, 2012, 03:30 AM
Good post, 2z1.

Any assumption regarding the performance of a bullet based solely upon a one-dimensional number (like kinetic energy, velocity, or momentum) is bound to result in a flawed assessment of the terminal ballistics involved. Unfortunately, such overly-simplistic approaches find favor with the vast majority of folks for a wide variety of reasons.

Simple numbers (like KE) sell.
We're fortunate to know that 124gr XTPs perform very well on culling feral goats in Australia, as does the 125gr Gold Dot. IIRC, some of those goats were in the 200# range and I don't remember any of the XTPs clogging.

Hornady ammunition doesn't have the energy numbers of the boutique ammo manufacturers, but they make a quality product that performs well in the field. Noticed a feral dog pack roaming out back the other day, but I didn't have a clean shot, maybe next time.

481
December 1, 2012, 09:05 AM
Exactly my point.

Oh, OK. I get it.

The way this was worded-

Or penetration depth in ballistic gel. That's the one I am finding the most annoying lately.

-made me think that you found gelatin test results to be annoying which confused me a little since you have in the recent past seemed to appreciate the merits of the methodology from what I read of you. Evidently, I misunderstood you.

56hawk
December 1, 2012, 11:34 AM
-made me think that you found gelatin test results to be annoying which confused me a little since you have in the recent past seemed to appreciate the merits of the methodology from what I read of you. Evidently, I misunderstood you.

Sorry for being vague in that post. I was referring to several posts on this thread as well as others where only penetration depth was mentioned. I think gelatin tests are a very useful tool in choosing ammunition, but can be interpreted in different ways. For example Brass Fetcher calculates KE transfer from their high speed video.

Anyway, as it applies to this thread:
The 124gr XTP is also an example why bullet design/construction is a more important consideration in ammunition selection than making a blanket assumption about energy/momentum. While the standard pressure 124gr XTP doesn't have the energy numbers of other 9/40 choices, it still delivers ~14+" of penetration and its a reliable expander.

I do not a all disagree that bullet design is one of the most important factors. However given the choice between two equally well designed bullets I will take the one with the more energy. For example if you look at the picture of the gelatin tests posted earlier in this thread, they all penetrated to approximately the same depth. However it's pretty obvious that the 9mm did less damage than the other rounds.

CZ57
December 2, 2012, 01:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2zulu1
The 124gr XTP is also an example why bullet design/construction is a more important consideration in ammunition selection than making a blanket assumption about energy/momentum. While the standard pressure 124gr XTP doesn't have the energy numbers of other 9/40 choices, it still delivers ~14+" of penetration and its a reliable expander.


Good post, 2z1.

Any assumption regarding the performance of a bullet based solely upon a one-dimensional number (like kinetic energy, velocity, or momentum) is bound to result in a flawed assessment of the terminal ballistics involved. Unfortunately, such overly-simplistic approaches find favor with the vast majority of folks for a wide variety of reasons.

Simple numbers (like KE) sell.

Speaking of ASSUMPTIONS Maybe you 2 guys would like to show everyone where such an assumption was made? Both of you assume you have a point to argue with, yet that point was never made. In my post I was referring to common defense loads (per the OP) in 9mm and .40 S&W where premium defense bullets are used and in comparing light/medium/heavy in 9mm compared to the .40 S&W. In the context of this statement I said momentum and energy favor the .40 S&W in all 3 weight categories, simple as that. It appears that you both like to argue ANYTHING that is in the slightest disagreement with your favorite gurus, even when apparently there's nothing to argue with.

2zulu1 made a statement about the effectiveness of the Hornady 124 gr. XTP at standard pressure and then went into show and tell mode with handloaded bullets being fired at velocities typical of +P factory loads rather than standard pressure. And BTW, consult the first two V-V loading guides and you'll see that the pressure rating they used was 36,300 PSI CIP for their handloads, I already stated that V-V reduced pressure in later guides. So we are to assume that the 124 gr. Hornady load works because he said so, yet offered nothing conclusive to base the statement on. If anything, the XTP is known for it's rather tough jacket and not usually expanding as well as newer designs so 14" of penetration seems about par for the course since its expansion is unimpressive. Try this, name one LE agency that even uses the standard pressure Hornady 124 gr. XTP. And since you're both so enamored with doc Roberts and his approved ammo list, maybe you can explain how he overlooked it. To date, no Hornady load has even passed the FBI testing protocol. Hornady claims that their 135 gr. +P Critical Duty load will, but it is yet untested by either the FBI or doc Roberts.

Then we come to this statement posted by 481.

That velocity (1032 fps) is well within the capacity of the 9mm cartridge for 147 gr JHPs - in fact, my Glock 19 routinely launches standard pressure Hornady 147 gr XTPs and Federal 147 gr HydraShoks at speeds well in excess of that figure.

Well in excess? REALLY? The Hornady 147 gr. XTP has a factory rated muzzle velocity of 975 FPS and the Hydra-Shok comes in at an even 1000 FPS. Most shooters that have been at it for any length of time or who actually chronograph ammunition are completely aware, that if anything, the ammomakers are usually a bit on the optimistic side with their factory velocity ratings. So how does your G19 achieve velocities "WELL IN EXCESS" of 1032 FPS? Is it that magical polygonal bore thingy? ;)

Are you guys just looking to get another thread locked down?

56hawk stated it pretty effectively:For example if you look at the picture of the gelatin tests posted earlier in this thread, they all penetrated to approximately the same depth. However it's pretty obvious that the 9mm did less damage than the other rounds.

hardheart
December 2, 2012, 02:58 AM
Doesn't look like any of them did a whole lot of damage past five-six inches. Past that, they looked to have poked holes all likely to be within one-tenth of an inch diameter.

3twelves
December 2, 2012, 03:00 AM
.40 cal. is the best cal.

Skylerbone
December 2, 2012, 03:10 AM
I swear some of you have never killed a living thing. Week after week after month after year this incessant caliber war but only with my brand of hollow point at X velocity...go hunt something already.

I've seen deer 200+ lbs. that staggered a few feet and died before I could walk 40 yds. to retrieve them. I've seen 100 lb. deer with similar shot placement make a 100 yd. sprint and crawl through brush only to need a second bullet some 20 minutes later. We're talking about 50 cal. projectiles, some in excess of 300 grains.

Here's a 250 gr. TC that failed to exit but reliably expanded with 100 grains of powder behind it. Double lung, sprinted, hid in the corn, point blank second shot to the head finished it off. Lucky he wasn't shooting back. The animal was small enough I hoisted it over my shoulder and walked it to the truck.

http://forums.1911forum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=80357&d=1334761741

Where are all the charts listing the reliable one-shot stoppages for SD encounters using any of these calibers or magic bullets? Last I knew 9mm was THE choice of LE before 40 S&W was thought up, .45 ACP was all you could want for until 10mm came along. Strange that these amazing calibers have magazines available.

481
December 2, 2012, 03:22 AM
We're fortunate to know that 124gr XTPs perform very well on culling feral goats in Australia, as does the 125gr Gold Dot. IIRC, some of those goats were in the 200# range and I don't remember any of the XTPs clogging.

I'll say. Those were some pretty cool tests. I wonder if POI has shot any more of them. He sure seemed to have the availabilty.

Hornady ammunition doesn't have the energy numbers of the boutique ammo manufacturers, but they make a quality product that performs well in the field. Noticed a feral dog pack roaming out back the other day, but I didn't have a clean shot, maybe next time.

Yeah, I've used 'em on a few deer with satisfactory results. Perhaps conditions will permit you to test one (or more) on those feral canines.

hardheart
December 2, 2012, 03:38 AM
I swear some of you have never killed a living thing. Week after week after month after year this incessant caliber war but only with my brand of hollow point at X velocity...go hunt something already.

I've seen deer 200+ lbs. that staggered a few feet and died before I could walk 40 yds. to retrieve them. I've seen 100 lb. deer with similar shot placement make a 100 yd. sprint and crawl through brush only to need a second bullet some 20 minutes later. We're talking about 50 cal. projectiles, some in excess of 300 grains.

Here's a 250 gr. TC that failed to exit but reliably expanded with 100 grains of powder behind it. Double lung, sprinted, hid in the corn, point blank second shot to the head finished it off. Lucky he wasn't shooting back. The animal was small enough I hoisted it over my shoulder and walked it to the truck.

http://forums.1911forum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=80357&d=1334761741

Where are all the charts listing the reliable one-shot stoppages for SD encounters using any of these calibers or magic bullets? Last I knew 9mm was THE choice of LE before 40 S&W was thought up, .45 ACP was all you could want for until 10mm came along. Strange that these amazing calibers have magazines available.
According to the Courtney's, a 115 grain 357 SIG will drop a deer in 4.96 seconds. They shot 5 of them, so it has to be true. They also said the 147 grain takes twice as long, and is because the heavier/slower bullet doesn't work as well, not because they had 1" shot groups with the 115 and 6" with the 147 load.

BamAlmighty
December 2, 2012, 07:29 AM
Shot placement... why does everyone assume you're going to hit bullseye every time? In a stressful active shooter situation where the target can move, take cover, and shoot back you're nowhere near as good as you THINK you are. This isn't hunting, whatever you will be defending from won't be standing still and will be returning fire.

2zulu1
December 2, 2012, 10:17 AM
Shot placement... why does everyone assume you're going to hit bullseye every time? In a stressful active shooter situation where the target can move, take cover, and shoot back you're nowhere near as good as you THINK you are. This isn't hunting, whatever you will be defending from won't be standing still and will be returning fire.
Actually, it can be a moment of absolute clarity.

Skylerbone
December 2, 2012, 10:22 AM
And that is why regardless of caliber I reduce the velocity of the load to match the bullets minimum requirements for expansion. AKA second shot recovery. And third if needed. And fourth if needed.

Walkalong
December 2, 2012, 10:37 AM
Enough arguing.

Mind set, preparedness, shot placement, these are some of my favorite things.....

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