Bullet setback does exist


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Ehtereon11B
November 25, 2012, 09:39 PM
Unloaded my XD .45 to start its weekly cleaning. Extracted the round from the chamber and it looked a little odd. Sure enough the round has been pushed down. Next round in the magazine measured 1.267" and the round from the chamber 1.177

Anyone else experience setback this bad? Is there any ammo that seems more resistant to it? These are Blazer 230gr FMJ.

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Drail
November 25, 2012, 10:24 PM
.45 ACP runs at relatively low pressure compared to most handgun cartridges so you have some room for an increase. With say, a .40, you have much less room for an increase in pressure. If you want ammo that will not setback you must load it yourself. The ammo companies have decided they have no legal responsibility for their product and they make no guarantees regarding setback. You cannot rely on the ammo companies anymore to address this problem. They do not care. It is no more difficult to load ammo that will not setback. You just have to care and pay attention to dimensions. Until you have learned to load your own quality ammo you must get out of the habit of rechambering rounds. It is an accident waiting to happen. I would take any chambered rounds and throw them in a box and when you get a bunch measure them very carefully. If they have set back don't shoot them.

Ehtereon11B
November 25, 2012, 10:49 PM
The .45 is the only round I have noticed setback on. I would chamber and rechamber my .40s much more and never saw any bullet setback on those, even with calipers. I think the most setback I ever witnessed on a .40 was 0.005" and was still within the minimum OAL.

smalls
November 25, 2012, 11:27 PM
I've found Hornady to be the worst perpetrator of setback, at least in 9mm.

I stopped using their products because I had one bullet setback almost .20 after clambering it twice.

bowserb
November 25, 2012, 11:44 PM
I notice it with Winchester .45 acp 230 gr JHP after a round has been rechambered maybe 3 times. I save these until I have a full mag (9 rounds) and take that mag to the range. They look bad but so far no failures when I shoot them.

iLikeOldgunsIlikeNewGuns
November 26, 2012, 01:57 AM
I'm not 100% sure as to why this works, but I haven't had a single case of setback since I started loading the chambered round for carry from an empty magazine. Been doing this for about a year with no setback now. The empty mag doesn't have to be your carry mag of course, but for some reason it works, I'm thinking it has something to do with the mag-spring upward pressure. Curious if anyone else does this with the same or different results.

R.W.Dale
November 26, 2012, 02:50 AM
Bullet setback is why I urge people not to buy a 357 sig for ccw.

Two rechamberings in a glock netted me almost .030" worth of setback on service grade ammunition.

This would get expensive in a hurry for us civilians who don't shoot our carry ammo exclusively with a .gov footing the bill.

IMO anyone who relies on a semiautomatic handgun for personal protection needs to own a set of calipers too.



posted via that mobile app with the sig lines everyone complaints about

Aaron1100us
November 26, 2012, 05:05 AM
I only get it in my G33 357 SIG. I love the 357 SIG for carry, just wish it didn't have set back issues.

Sent from my PB99400 using Tapatalk 2

joecil
November 26, 2012, 05:28 AM
Here is a trick I picked up a long time ago that will really cut down on the set back problem. Now if you like me keep one in the pipe I will pull the full magazine and remove the single shell in the pipe. Now I will use an empty magazine to load that round back in the gun then put in the full magazine. A fully loaded magazine the first few rounds in most cases is where you see it however if the magazine is empty except a single round it can be loaded a lot of times before you will notice much set back. This is especially true with 1911 however I've also seen it on other auto loaders I own.

Ragnar Danneskjold
November 26, 2012, 09:05 AM
Question, do press checks cause any setback? Does lightly pulling the slide back just a bit to see the brass and letting it forward push the bullet any?

bowserb
November 26, 2012, 09:49 AM
Here is a trick I picked up a long time ago that will really cut down on the set back problem. Now if you like me keep one in the pipe I will pull the full magazine and remove the single shell in the pipe. Now I will use an empty magazine to load that round back in the gun then put in the full magazine. A fully loaded magazine the first few rounds in most cases is where you see it however if the magazine is empty except a single round it can be loaded a lot of times before you will notice much set back. This is especially true with 1911 however I've also seen it on other auto loaders I own.
Thanks, joecil. I've got to try this, because, like someone else here pointed out, we normal people can't afford to spend our money on hollowpoints for practice...the way the government can afford to spend our money!

beatledog7
November 26, 2012, 11:50 AM
What would happen if you open the action with no mag, drop a round into the chamber, release the slide, and insert a full mag?

Ragnar Danneskjold
November 26, 2012, 12:18 PM
What would happen if you open the action with no mag, drop a round into the chamber, release the slide, and insert a full mag?

Depends on the gun. Sometimes nothing at all. Other times it can mess up the case rim, or damage your extractor, or just not work at all.

beatledog7
November 26, 2012, 12:33 PM
Ah, so with some guns the ejector will readily pop onto the case rim when the slide goes forward on the manually chambered round, and on some it won't.

I had the idea of trying this with a Glock, and it basically failed to go into battery.

460Kodiak
November 26, 2012, 01:02 PM
What would happen if you open the action with no mag, drop a round into the chamber, release the slide, and insert a full mag?


I used to do this all the time, and then I heard you can ruin the extractor. So I stopped. I wonder if having an external or an internal extractor makes a difference. I never had any problem on the Stoegar Cougar I did this with. It had an external extractor.

I have noticed this with Hornady ammo, in particular the Critical Defense. This is unfortunate, because I like Hornady in every other regard. I have started doing the empty mag trick, because I just started carrying a semi on a regular basis. We'll see if that makes a difference.

The Springfield XDs seems to generate a lot of setback, but I wonder if the stiff recoil spring they put in it contributes to this. I would guess so. I'm assamed to admit that I find myself riding the slide now and then.

holdencm9
November 26, 2012, 01:11 PM
Loading direct into the chamber is a nice feature, one that I enjoy on my Beretta. But do not attempt to do it with a 1911. The type of extractor is what determines it. Beretta and lots of guns designed to allow chamber-loading (so it isn't worthless if you lose all your magazines) whereas the 1911 the case rim slides up from the magazine, under the extractor. And there is not enough flexibility in the extractor to allow chamber-loading.

Question, do press checks cause any setback? Does lightly pulling the slide back just a bit to see the brass and letting it forward push the bullet any?

It should not affect anything since no force is being applied to the bullet itself. The extractor pulls on the case rim to pull it back a bit, and then going forward, it stops when the case mouth hits the front of the chamber. If the bore is tight I suppose it could push a bit on the bullet, but it will only push it once, any subsequent pushes would not make it go farther into the brass.

Drail
November 26, 2012, 01:36 PM
Set back is essentially due to insufficient case neck tension AND feedramp angles. Some guns are worse than others but the ammo is the main reason we are seeing many more set back complaints now. Press checking does not push the bullet back into the case. The feed cycle does. If I had to unload and reload daily (or more) I would just carry a revolver. With the factory offerings repeated chamberings is simply a risky practice. Try to avoid doing it. (unless you handload your own ammo - then you have control)

beatledog7
November 26, 2012, 02:27 PM
I started a new thread on the manual chambering discussion.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=8532606#post8532606

Ehtereon11B
November 26, 2012, 05:38 PM
Here is a trick I picked up a long time ago that will really cut down on the set back problem. Now if you like me keep one in the pipe I will pull the full magazine and remove the single shell in the pipe. Now I will use an empty magazine to load that round back in the gun then put in the full magazine. A fully loaded magazine the first few rounds in most cases is where you see it however if the magazine is empty except a single round it can be loaded a lot of times before you will notice much set back. This is especially true with 1911 however I've also seen it on other auto loaders I own.


I'll have to try that with my XD sometime in the next few days. I have a "spare" magazine that I can try it with.

Edit* Tried that technique just now with one of the Blazer brass giving me trouble. COAL started out at 1.2675" and was chambered in the XD 10 times using an empty magazine with slide slamming full forward. After the 10th cycle COAL was measured 1.2485. So some bullet setback occurs but not nearly as fast as using a full mag.

I have noticed this with Hornady ammo, in particular the Critical Defense. This is unfortunate, because I like Hornady in every other regard. I have started doing the empty mag trick, because I just started carrying a semi on a regular basis. We'll see if that makes a difference.

I carry Hornady CD ammo in my 9mm and I never noticed setback. But the 9mm didn't have a slide release, just a catch. So that might have something to do with it.

On another note I noticed that the Blazer .45 uses small pistol primers instead of large. Is there any chance this won't feed through the XD as well as large primers?

Vern Humphrey
November 26, 2012, 06:05 PM
Another trick to prevent setback is to simply put the gun in the safe with a round in the chamber -- constant loading and unloading is more dangerous than keeping a gun loaded.

But, if you must, run your carry ammo through a taper crimp die and lean on the handle hard. That will increase neck tension to the point where setback just about goes away.

AethelstanAegen
November 26, 2012, 06:16 PM
My Cimarron 1911 initially caused bad set back on rounds chambered 1-2 times. I contacted them and they felt what I described was not normal and had me send the pistol in for repair and they polished the feed ramp and now it no longer causes any sort of set back and also feeds HPs reliably. For what it's worth, I fired the setback rounds in my XD45 with no problems...but I would not suggest that. Take note of how bad the setback is and after how many times you've chambered the rounds. At some point if it seems bad enough, contact Springfield and see what they say.

tryshoot
November 26, 2012, 10:45 PM
One ammo manufacter I remember saying do not feed over 3 times from mag to prevent setback.

coalman
November 27, 2012, 01:12 AM
Always odd to me, despite the clear preponderance of evidence, some people still really must have it happen to them before it's real. Yes, bullet setback is real. Glad we got that settled. Ammo with a crimp behind the bullet can help, but few bother with that now. I ride the slide into battery instead of allowing it to slam home. But, the best medicine is to limit cycling and check ammo. Same as always.

Steel Talon
November 27, 2012, 01:34 AM
Do a bit a prudent house keeping and you'll be good to go.

This is what I do with all my semi auto pistols/calibers

*Rotate top round to the bottom of the magazine regularly I sharpie the primer on this cartridge.

*It's also good for the mag spring,and knocking out any holster debris that may have gotten in.

*After a complete rotation the magazine load needs to go to the range for qual/practice

I also schedule my SD revolver ammo for range rotation.

FWIW
ST~

Inebriated
November 27, 2012, 02:09 AM
I've found Hornady to be the worst perpetrator of setback, at least in 9mm.

I stopped using their products because I had one bullet setback almost .20 after clambering it twice.

Same here. I have a round here that I chambered a couple times... It's noticeably shorter than the other rounds that are in the box. I never had this problem with Federal or Speer products, so I will be shooting these and going back to Gold Dots.

GoWolfpack
November 27, 2012, 07:11 AM
Load the gun. Leave it alone. Bullet setback solved. Frequent loading and unloading is buying a ticket to a negligent discharge.


45 acp is extremely forgiving of bullet setback. Being such a low pressure round, if your carry ammo is a thousandth or two shorter than it started out, the gun can still handle the chamber pressure just fine.

smalls
November 27, 2012, 08:36 AM
Load the gun. Leave it alone. Bullet setback solved. Frequent loading and unloading is buying a ticket to a negligent discharge.

Some people shoot their carry guns frequently, and premium defense ammo is expensive.

316SS
November 27, 2012, 08:59 AM
But, if you must, run your carry ammo through a taper crimp die and lean on the handle hard. That will increase neck tension to the point where setback just about goes away.

Over on the Reloading forum they would tell you that crimping doesn't increase neck tension, but excessive crimping can decrease it. Neck tension comes from the size differential between the sized case and the seated bullet; the crimp only serves to eliminate whatever case flare is needed to seat the bullet.


Load the gun. Leave it alone. Bullet setback solved. Frequent loading and unloading is buying a ticket to a negligent discharge.

Some people shoot their carry guns frequently, and premium defense ammo is expensive.
I don't unload my carry gun except to practice or clean it. However, if you practice often you should also check your chosen carry ammo often for reliable function. As a compromise, I Sharpie the primer on carry ammo that has been chambered and shoot those when I practice.

smalls
November 27, 2012, 02:15 PM
A lot of people can't afford to buy their carry ammo that frequently. I shoot my carry ammo roughly 4 times a year.

There's also those who dry fire. I do dry fire exercises 2-3 times a week. This means I have to unload and reload my gun.

My point being that most if us can't just "load the gun and leave it alone".

showmebob
November 27, 2012, 04:20 PM
Being a reloader of several calibers I can tell you with 9MM I'm having trouble with neck tension on .FC., Blazer and CCI brass only. Just a strong two thumb push will set the bullets back into the case. No problems on other calibers or brands of brass.

Vern Humphrey
November 27, 2012, 05:23 PM
That's a problem of brass thickness and sizing die. If the brass is too thin for the sizer neck tension goes to hell. To successfully load those brands of brass, you either need a tighter sizing die, or a better crimp.

Drail
November 27, 2012, 06:41 PM
Measure the plug in your expander die. If it is not 3 to 5 thous. smaller than the bullet's dia. you are loading then it needs to be turned down until it is. A drill press will do the job. There should be enough neck tension BEFORE you apply a crimp that you cannot push the bullet into the case no matter how hard you push. You should be able to see faintly see the outline of the bottom of the bullet on the brass. Then crimp just enough to remove the flare you put on the case mouth. Hard crimping will not hold a bullet in place if the case was over expanded or not sized down to spec. Extra hard crimping will make it worse.

Steel Talon
November 28, 2012, 12:18 AM
Load the gun. Leave it alone. Bullet setback solved. Frequent loading and unloading is buying a ticket to a negligent discharge.


45 acp is extremely forgiving of bullet setback. Being such a low pressure round, if your carry ammo is a thousandth or two shorter than it started out, the gun can still handle the chamber pressure just fine.

In my case before I retired from the job I inspected my pistol daily prior to duty which involved a daily rack...

R.W.Dale
November 28, 2012, 02:02 AM
Load the gun. Leave it alone. Bullet setback solved. Frequent loading and unloading is buying a ticket to a negligent discharge.


.

And where in this process do you become proficient with the pistol?

IMO if this can work to cure your setback concerns you're not practicing enough




posted via that mobile app with the sig lines everyone complaints about

GoWolfpack
November 28, 2012, 06:20 AM
Take two........



If you're going to unload and reload your semi-automatic frequently, you're probably going to get bullet setback. I proposed the simplest possible way to avoid this. Clearly I was wrong.


I haven't experienced noticeable bullet setback since I started loading from a spare magazine with a single round in it. I do not, however, unload and reload daily. More like weekly. I shoot and replace my carry ammo about every six months. I dry fire with revolvers or with guns similar to my carry guns.

The only way to stop bullet setback for good is to stop chambering and ejecting the same round multiple times. Dropping a round into the chamber rather than loading from a magazine wears on your extractor; the gun was designed to be loaded from a magazine, not from the ejector port. Some guns can handle it and some can't, but the bottom line is you'll cause your extractor to fail much faster. Rotating the ammunition within the magazine cycles your mag springs, accelerating wear on them.

I was wrong to be dismissive of the OP's problem, and I'm sorry.

45_auto
November 28, 2012, 07:25 AM
I ride the slide into battery instead of allowing it to slam home.

That may not affect you much on the range, but it's a very bad practice to use on a weapon that you may need to count on to save your life. It's very easy for the slide to stop a few thousandths out of battery so the disconnector prevents it from firing. There's a reason that EVERY manufacturer and trainer recommends NOT riding the slide while loading a round.

hentown
November 28, 2012, 07:29 AM
Bullet setback does exist

Sho do!

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m294/Walteridus/Port.jpg

moxie
November 28, 2012, 09:48 AM
Setback happens, but it varies from type to type.

Blazer is marketed as a practice round. I wouldn't use it for carry. Try one of the better 230 hollowpoints and test to see if you're getting setback.

Some guns are more prone to setback due to specific feed ramp geometry.

Best to check before rechambering any rounds. You can also do the "push test" used by reloaders. Just pust the bullet hard against a bench or table. If no decrease in length you're likely good to go.

RetiredUSNChief
December 4, 2012, 10:10 PM
Bullet setback is going to occur, period. You may not be able to measure it immediately, but it's there nonetheless.

Yeah, I'm sure that it may occur in some brands, or with particular lots within a brand, more often than others. But it's ALWAYS there, even with the best of brands and the best of reloads.

The question which cannot be answered with precision is "How much setback is safe?"

This is because there are a variety of factors which affect this (safety), not the least of which is the type of powder used and how much is in the cartridge.


Recognizing that setback always occurs, the solution to this is simple:

When setback is noticable, remove that round from your pistol and either dispose of it or put it aside to be used at the range the next time you go. Replace it with another one.

This should be entirely within the working budget of anyone owning a firearm, regardless of the type and expense of their carry ammunition. Unless you have faulty ammunition, this isn't going to require someone to go through a box of ammunition every week by replacing defensive carry rounds.


You do not have to mike out your chambered round for this, either. Periodically visually inspect the chambered round side-by-side with one that hasn't been chambered. If you can visually detect any setback, replace that round with another one.

:):)

hentown
December 5, 2012, 09:15 AM
Unless you're roll-crimping into a cannelure, then crimping has no effect on setback, except a taper crimp that's too heavy will loosen neck tension and exacerbate setback problems.

When I was loading .400 Cor-Bon and .40 Super I took Peter Pi's (prez of Cor-Bon) advice and bought a hand canneluring tool. I cannelured every bullet that I loaded into bottleneck handgun cases and roll-crimped into the cannelures.

otasan56
December 5, 2012, 10:03 AM
I load the chamber in my G17 from an empty magazine; I don't want any bullet set-back with my 115gr JHP +p+ ammo.

mr.trooper
December 5, 2012, 12:21 PM
Fiocchi uses bullets with a canalure in a lot of its cartidges. Even on cartridges you wouldnt expect it - like 32acp. That is why i like to carry that brand.

Yoi could also purchas a canalure tool, and crimp the brass behind the bullet on loaded ammo. Setback solved.

Just One Shot
December 5, 2012, 01:01 PM
Load the gun. Leave it alone. Bullet setback solved. Frequent loading and unloading is buying a ticket to a negligent discharge.


45 acp is extremely forgiving of bullet setback. Being such a low pressure round, if your carry ammo is a thousandth or two shorter than it started out, the gun can still handle the chamber pressure just fine.

I agree with leaving it alone and while I dont have a problem shooting a round with setback in my 1911 I wouldn't do it in a Glock regardless of caliber. :uhoh: :D

hentown
December 5, 2012, 07:37 PM
I don't agree with hand-feeding a round directly into a Glock's chamber.

coolluke01
December 5, 2012, 10:46 PM
I did a test a little while back with 147 gr Winchester Ranger T's in my Glock 26. I chambered the round many many times. I had set the caliper at the OAL at the beginning and then checked it periodically though the test. The OAL never changed after dozens of chambering. I would load the round in a full mag and drop the slide on the round. I gave it every opportunity to fail and they stayed true.

I would recommend trying this with your carry ammo and see how it holds up. Feed ramp geometry plays a big part in bullet setback. As does crimp of the bullet.

Reefinmike
December 6, 2012, 01:59 AM
I have never experienced setback with the way I load my 380 for carry. I crack it open once a week when at the range, and after cleaning and lubing I lock the slide back, drop a shok in, drop the slide and insert a full mag alternating 90gr ball and hydrashok. I never got why someone would insert a mag, drop the slide, remove the mag and load another round. Its just easier to drop one in the tube

Inebriated
December 6, 2012, 02:13 AM
I have never experienced setback with the way I load my 380 for carry. I crack it open once a week when at the range, and after cleaning and lubing I lock the slide back, drop a shok in, drop the slide and insert a full mag alternating 90gr ball and hydrashok. I never got why someone would insert a mag, drop the slide, remove the mag and load another round. Its just easier to drop one in the tube

It can break the extractor on many types of guns. That's why.

EVIL
December 6, 2012, 07:54 AM
I have noticed setback to be more prevalent in sub-compact semi-autos. For instance, my GLOCK 27 would visibly setback after only a few rechambering, while I could never discern any visual setback on my full-sized G21. When I started reloading and got calipers, I determined that there was slight setback of the .45 ACP rounds in the G21, though not as aggressive as .40S&W in G27 (Both Hornady.) Fiocci carry ammo also minimized setback in .45 ACP, from my experience.

Since I am one of those holster on/off again, through-out the day carriers, about 2 years ago, I decided to make my main EDC a .357 SP101 revolver, and I haven't looked back since.

just for fun
December 6, 2012, 03:55 PM
I only get it in my G33 357 SIG. I love the 357 SIG for carry, just wish it didn't have set back issues.

Got very lucky about two weeks ago. Son was shooting my glock 32 and had a misfire. When I cleared the gun the bullet had pushed all the way into the case and there was about 3/8ths of an inch of the bullet showing. primer showed light hit. When we got home I pulled the bullet and chambered the case, primer when off as expected. Had that happened on a live round, well I don't want to think about what could have happened to my son's hand. Case was Winchester and had been reloaded maybe three times. I've got Speer brass that have been loaded 5 times and this was my first encounter with setback in the gun, I would guess that I put close to 5K through that gun. With Speer cases after the fifth reload is shot the cases are retired. Reloading the 357 sig is another ball game. I have had rounds that the final inch of travel on the reloading handle didn't feel like it had enough resistance. Rare but has happened. Finished bullets would not pass the push test and cases were trashed. Before that gun goes to the range agian all ammo will be "push tested!!"

AJumbo
December 6, 2012, 05:00 PM
If you're using the .45 ACP Blazer Brass, get used to setback. I found it to have the greatest tendency for setback of any ammo I tried. It's OK at the range, but I wouldn't depend upon it for carry.

zignal_zero
December 7, 2012, 01:35 PM
STEEL TALON nailed it! Until I saw his post, I thought nobody was gonna mention rotation. That's how I was trained, in the academy - don't be lazy, if you take the round out of the chamber, you take EVERY round out of the magazine and line them up. Then, you put the previously chambered round in the bottom and reload the mag. This means you can unload yer gun 13-15 times before you need to worry about dumping yer HP's into a backstop :)

And, much like COALMAN, I will just "ride the slide". Yes, it is definitely bad practice, but if you can train yerself to do it when it's appropriate and to NOT do it when it isn't, it isn't a big deal. It's like running a redlight at 0200 compared to 1730, same offense, different ramifications :)

I noticed it most on .40 Cal Glocks.

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