Going +1 by manually feeding the chamber


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beatledog7
November 26, 2012, 02:26 PM
Another thread in general discussions... http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=686724...bled over into this topic.

Which semi-auto pistols allow for manually loading a round into the chamber then releasing the slide before inserting a full mag? The purposes of this, of course, are to go +1 without the need to load the first round from a Barney mag and to avoid setback from re-chambering a round in the normal fashion.

The other thread discusses a few that work, and a few whose extractor (not ejector) could be damaged. Is there, or can we build, a definitive list of the ones where this works and doesn't work.

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hentown
November 26, 2012, 02:46 PM
It's the extractor, not the ejector, and I can't think of a good reason to do what you suggest.

Owen
November 26, 2012, 03:08 PM
well. Off the top of my head, the Desert Eagle, with is AR-15 type bolt should be good to go.

56hawk
November 26, 2012, 03:13 PM
I'm pretty sure the Luger and HK P7 can be loaded this way as the round is feed in front of the extractor instead of under it.

mgmorden
November 26, 2012, 03:20 PM
It should be relatively safe for any gun with a hinged/spring-loaded extractor, but its still going to be a bit harder on the part than letting the round come from the mag.

I would do it if it was an emergency but overall you're better off to strip the top round off the mag, pull it, then top it back off.

Naybor
November 26, 2012, 03:21 PM
I do it with my LCP all the time, but never thought of it hurting the extractor? Maybe..........

gamestalker
November 26, 2012, 03:26 PM
Wow, really good question from the OP. I've never thought of it hurting anything before until now. I can say this though, I've been single loading the +1 round for many years and have yet to break, or other wise ruin an extractor.

GS

ku4hx
November 26, 2012, 03:28 PM
Glock warns against loading the chamber and allowing the slide to go into battery. And there's a good reason for that. I have one bent extractor and two that are chipped to varying degrees.

Extractors are cheap, and I now have three "spares" that will work in a pinch. But a gun used for self defense shouldn't have damaged parts that will "get by in a pinch" if at all possible.

9mmepiphany
November 26, 2012, 03:41 PM
It helps if you understand where the warning/procedure come from. This is one of many that come down to us from the manual of arm of the 1911.

I remember taking a handgun class from a retired Marine who trained security details. He told the class that his experience was that 1911 extractors regularly fail after extended malfunction clearance drills of Type 3 jams (double feed) as it forced the extractor to jump over the rim of the chambers cartridge. He said that that failure stopped when they were issued the M9.

The problem with the 1911 extractors is twofold...1) the hook of the extractor crashing into the back of the case and 2) the extractor being bent further outward than designed.

All the Berettas with tip-up barrels are safe to single load into the barrel as are most other Berettas. As already mentioned, the Desert Eagle, will also do this without damage.

The H&K P7 feeds rounds straight from the magazine into the chamber...the round does not rise up under the extractor hook as it is fed from the magazine...so it's extractor is designed to snap over the cartridge rim. But then the P7 will also function without an extractor at all

mgmorden
November 26, 2012, 03:45 PM
Glock warns against loading the chamber and allowing the slide to go into battery. And there's a good reason for that. I have one bent extractor and two that are chipped to varying degrees.

Yep - my Glock was bough used (so I have no idea how it was treated in its previous life), but it was experiencing a jam about once every 50-60 rounds and the brass that it did eject was flying all over the place.

Had an armorer check it out and sure enough it was a chipped extractor. This was at a GSSF event so it was replaced at no cost (that's an excellent service that I must give Glock props for), and I'm not sure exactly why the extractor was chipped, but they certainly can be damaged so I'd prefer to avoid any undue stress.

TimboKhan
November 26, 2012, 09:38 PM
I have done it with darn near every semi auto I have owned. It's a bad habit that I have worked on changing, because it is rough on extractors. Never had a failure as a result of this, but no reason to tempt fate with poor gun handling.

thefish
November 26, 2012, 10:16 PM
I can t speak to which guns will allow it, but why not load a full mag, load the chamber, drop the mag, the top the mag off.

Is it just the inconvenience of the processes?

I do know the Taurus pt709 specifically says not to load one manually as it will damage the extractor.

Walkalong
November 26, 2012, 10:20 PM
Always feed one from the mag and you don't have to worry about it. Then top off the mag.

SSN Vet
November 26, 2012, 11:12 PM
With my PT-111, I can chamber a round manually, and then as I ease the slide forward, tip the muzzle up, le the round slide about half way out of the chamber until it hits the breach face, then as I slowly pull the slide back again, the back end of the cartridge will fall down and under the extractor, at which time I can push the slide shut, re-chambering the round.

Sounds complicated to describe, but is actually quite easy to do.

Jim K
November 26, 2012, 11:12 PM
In spite of the millions of posts saying either "it can't be done" or "don't do it" or "something will break", the GI 1911 can be loaded exactly that way. The Army tested it in 1911 because of concern that if the magazine were lost the gun would be inoperable in an emergency. A properly made extractor will not be damaged; the current crop of cast tin junk extractors might be damaged.

Jim

orionengnr
November 26, 2012, 11:24 PM
In spite of the millions of posts saying either "it can't be done" or "don't do it" or "something will break", the GI 1911 can be loaded exactly that way. The Army tested it in 1911 because of concern that if the magazine were lost the gun would be inoperable in an emergency.
Jim, I have learned a lot from you over the years, and I have a lot of respect for your knowledge and experience. It pains me to disagree with you on any point.

But..having a bit over 20 years worth of direct experience...when the US Military says that something "may be done" in an emergency, that means if you have no other option, you may go ahead and do it now to save your life, and we will worry about fixing the equipment later.... it is a very pragmatic approach, and is a breath of fresh air, considering many military policies. That doesn't mean it's a good idea, and it dang sure doesn't mean you can or should do it every day.

Disclaimer: I don't believe that precise verbiage is written anywhere, but it is training doctrine, at least in NavAir. I can supply numerous examples of supporting evidence, and I would have to believe that similar doctrines exist in everything from submariners to surface warfare in the Navy, and I would imagine that parallel doctrines exist in the ground warfare for Marines and Army, and similarly, with the inferior air service (USAF)

JK about the USAF...maybe. :)

rcmodel
November 26, 2012, 11:25 PM
Most manufactures discourage it.

Not because of extractor damage, as much as having a round fire out of battery.
And that will ruin your whole day while you go have the brass fragments dug out of your face at the ER.

It is possible for the extractor itself, or some other protrusion on the breach face to hit the primer if the round is not all the way in the chamber, or if it slips back out part way when you drop the slide on it.


But what are you trying to gain anyway??

Many guns feed goofy or not very well with the extra pressure of a topped off mag pressing up against the slide and slowing it down.

And if you really need one more round?
You probably really need a higher-cap gun, or just way more more practice changing mags fast!

rc

Dmath
November 27, 2012, 12:26 AM
If the extractor is external, in many cases you can press down on the back end of it with a finger or a fingernail and ease it over the chambered round and get it into battery that way. I don't see how doing this will harm either the gun nor the round in the chamber.

If it has an internal extractor, as in the 1911, then there might be some harm in forcing the cartridge into battery.

Steve C
November 27, 2012, 02:22 AM
Feeding a round into the chamber by hand and then closing the action over it thus making the extractor siip over the rim can be hard on extractors causing weakening and breakage of the part. Can't really see why someone would want to do this on a regular basis except as perhaps in an emergency when a magazine wasn't available.

Same results can be obtained with less potential damage to the extractor if one simply feeds a round from the magazine into the camber and then tops off the mag.

MedWheeler
November 27, 2012, 07:29 AM
The only one I've ever had in which the manufacturer actually offered that as an option is the Grendel P10. For those of you not familiar with this one, it's a distant ancester of today's Kel-Tec line. The P-10 was chambered in .380ACP, and had a non-removable internal, double-stack magazine designed to hold ten rounds. The manufacturer touted the gun as a "ten-plus-one" capacity pocket pistol. To top off the gun, you loaded the magazine to capacity (through the ejector port), then placed the eleventh round in the chamber. Then, you pushed down on the top-most round in the magazine to let the slide pass over it, removed your finger, and finished closing the slide.
I've had the gun since around 1988, but admittedly, have not fired but maybe a couple hundred rounds through it. In that time, I think I might have actually done this twice. I've grown fond of my fingers.

1911Tuner
November 27, 2012, 10:43 AM
Jim, I have learned a lot from you over the years, and I have a lot of respect for your knowledge and experience. It pains me to disagree with you on any point.

Gonna align with Jim on this one.

The 1911 is a controlled feed design and the case rim should be picked up by the extractor from below...

But...

The extractor is designed to tolerate emergency single loading in the event of a lost or damaged magazine. The proper angle on the nose of the extractor expedites this. Regularly practiced, can it shorten the extractor's service life? Sure...but sometimes things happen that supersede any concerns over the equipment. The extractor will tolerate this for dozens, if not hundreds of repetitions. They're not that fragile.

Of course, this assumes that the extractor is made of good steel, properly hardened and drawn to a spring temper...that the angle is to spec...and that the extractor doesn't have an excessive amount of deflection. In short, it means that if the gun is properly built to spec, it'll be okay. The problem is that some present-day manufacturers seem to make up the specs as they go.

It's not moving the extractor too far starboard that does the damage. It's the impact, and the angle on the nose that determines how well the extractor will tolerate it.

Several years ago, high-end pistolsmith and fellow mad scientist Ned Christiansen devised a little machine that moved the extractor the same distance as it would when climbing a case rim. He turned it on, and went home for the night. The next day, he removed the extractor and installed it in a gun and headed for the range. It functioned fine.

And just as an FYI...If the nose angle is to spec, there's no need to drop the round into the chamber and let fly with the slide. The slide can be eased forward and the claw snapped over the rim with a firm push with one thumb. I've seen a few snap over with no more than spring pressure...or with just a little help.

Do I recommend it? Nope. It's a controlled feed design. Can it be done occasionally without concern...with a pistol and an extractor that's built to spec? Sure.

MachIVshooter
November 27, 2012, 11:13 AM
I single load all the time, but I do not let the slide slam home from locked. I know each of my guns and how much force is required for the extractor to snap over the rim. Some will almost do it from recoil spring pressure alone, others require some assistance, others still a touch of momentum. NONE of them need the full side velocity.

In short, I see absolutely no problem with single loading the chamber on any firearm, but I do see a problem with letting the slide go on a chambered round from full lock.

sawdeanz
November 27, 2012, 05:30 PM
Just to clarify the reason the op wants to know is that in the other thread we are talking about bullet setback that can occur when u repeatedly rack a round from a full mag. Some in that thread say that loading from a mag with one round will prevent this.

orionengnr
November 27, 2012, 06:11 PM
Tuner--
Thank you. I have learned easily as much from you as Jim, and if both say I'm wrong...case closed. :)

When I said this:
when the US Military says that something "may be done" in an emergency, that means if you have no other option, you may go ahead and do it now to save your life, and we will worry about fixing the equipment later.... it is a very pragmatic approach, and is a breath of fresh air, considering many military policies. That doesn't mean it's a good idea, and it dang sure doesn't mean you can or should do it every day.
I probably should have highlighted this part:
That doesn't mean it's a good idea, and it dang sure doesn't mean you can or should do it every day
So, I don't think I am in fundamental disagreement. I may be a bit more adamant about not doing it on my guns unless it really is an emergency...basically because I view it as abusive, just like dropping the clutch at six grand. Can you do it? Sure, and some do. I don't, unless I have a compelling reason to.
Better? :)

GCMkc
November 27, 2012, 06:39 PM
I do see a problem with letting the slide go on a chambered round from full lock.

THIS! Be careful! I was loading my Browning Hi Power one time and put a round in the chamber then let the slide go from full lock and that puppy went off. Luckily it was pointed in a safe direction and nobody was hurt. SUPER SCARY.

I always load from a magazine now.

Drail
November 27, 2012, 06:48 PM
Ask youself why am I doing this?

psyopspec
November 27, 2012, 07:18 PM
But then the P7 will also function without an extractor at all.

I've seen this oft-repeated on many forums over the years, but my own HK P7 did not live up to this. I purchased a used one around 2005, Made in W Germany stamped on the slide and a date code matching that era. After a cursory inspection and cleaning, I took it to the range. Halfway through the first magazine, the extractor flew off when the gun was fired. Recalling the information I'd read about it being optional equipment anyway, I continued firing the gun. It could indeed extract; but the empties would not eject, requiring brushing the brass away from the action so that the new round could feed. So one could say it was "functioning" without an extractor, but it was not functioning 100% as I'd read that it could.

Interesting follow-up to that story; when I returned to the shop where I'd purchased it, The Outdoorsman in Fargo, ND, their smith called HK, and the company had the part there in a couple days. No charge from the shop to fix it, no charge from HK for the new extractor. He installed it, and the pistol functioned 100% thereafter, busting another HK myth about bad customer service. I sold the pistol to a friend when I fell on hard times, but it was incredible pleasure to shoot.

The manual for a Beretta 92FS I purchased around the same time as the HK explicitly said it was okay to single load the chamber and let the slide go. IIRC, the manual described this as "admin loading" the pistol.

1911Tuner
November 27, 2012, 07:20 PM
That doesn't mean it's a good idea, and it dang sure doesn't mean you can or should do it every day

While I'm in agreement that the pistol is supposed to feed from the magazine, and should feed from the magazine and that single-loading should be reserved for emergencies...

You may be surprised to learn how many pistols out there push-feed on a regular basis. Those that are used with smooth-topped followers in 8-round magazines most especially are prone to feeding the last round in this manner.

Ever notice small burrs kicked up on the edges of the rims on some of your brass?

Hint: The ratio will be right around 8 or 9:1 depending on whether you top off or not.

Have you seen that? If you have...guess what. Your extractor is climbing the rim on just about every magazine, and you probably need to retension your extractor about every 5,000 rounds give or take.

1911Tuner
November 27, 2012, 07:32 PM
Here's a little story on one of my more memorable experiences with the magazine-induced push feed issue.

Back in the mid-80s, a little paperback book was being sold on the gunshow circuit. It was written and illustrated by one Ken Hallock. It was dirt cheap and a blue million were sold. One of Ken's instructions was to remove the "pip" on the top of the magazine follower for smoother feeding.

In the mid-90s, A friend of mine bought one of the books, and proceeded to file or grind off the pips. Being an avid shooter and by necessity a reloader...he noticed that some of his oft-fired brass was giving him fits entering his shell holder because of the multiple burrs. He was also experiencing reduced and lost tension in his extractors, and thought it odd because he'd never had those problems before.

He called me for a diagnosis. I asked about his magazines. When he told me what he'd done, I told him what the problem was. He believed me. He ordered replacement followers from the Metalform Company, and all his problems vanished.

That silly little bump on the top of the follower was put there for a very good reason.

carbonyl
November 27, 2012, 07:47 PM
Which semi-auto pistols allow for manually loading a round into the chamber then releasing the slide before inserting a full mag? The purposes of this, of course, are to go +1 without the need to load the first round from a Barney mag and to avoid setback from re-chambering a round in the normal fashion.


This is from my Ruger P95 manual.

TO LOAD AND FIRE (WITHOUT MAGAZINE)
In the event that the magazine is missing or for training purposes (where it is
desirable that only one cartridge be loaded and fired at a time for safety), the
pistol can be fired with the magazine removed. To do so, keep the pistol pointed
in a safe direction, engage the safety (lever fully down, white dot and letter S
exposed), grasp the slide, and retract it fully to the rear. Next, push the slide stop
upward so that the slide remains to the rear. Insert a single cartridge directly and
fully into the chamber. Taking care to keep the pistol pointed in a safe direction,
depress the slide stop. This will cause the slide to move vigorously forward into
the firing position. WARNING: The pistol is ready for instant use in the singleaction
mode once the slide moves forward and the safety is disengaged.

EddieG54
November 27, 2012, 07:50 PM
I remember reading in a Ruger instruction manual for the LCP on how to load and fire without a magazine. In a nutshell it said lock the slide back, drop a round fully into the chamber and release the slide. Not something I would make a habit of IMO.

9mmepiphany
November 27, 2012, 08:16 PM
I've seen this oft-repeated on many forums over the years, but my own HK P7 did not live up to this.
A lot of us doubted it when we heard it. I have never proved it as my extractor has never failed.

I started to believe it when Massad Ayoob ran a torture test on a P7 attempting to shoot it without cleaning until it failed to function. Part way through the test, the extractor disappeared without them noticing it. The flutes in the chamber are said to reduce the case tension of the case in the chamber

psyopspec
November 27, 2012, 08:40 PM
I started to believe it when Massad Ayoob ran a torture test on a P7 attempting to shoot it without cleaning until it failed to function. Part way through the test, the extractor disappeared without them noticing it. The flutes in the chamber are said to reduce the case tension of the case in the chamber

While my own experience differed, I would certainly say it's possible for a P7 to function without an extractor. My primary concern in doing this with a pistol would be stuck cases, and there were none of those when I did it. In this way, the fluting at the very least assists in having an extractor-less gun become a catastrophic failure.

Walt Sherrill
November 27, 2012, 10:21 PM
I was loading my Browning Hi Power one time and put a round in the chamber then let the slide go from full lock and that puppy went off. Luckily it was pointed in a safe direction and nobody was hurt. SUPER SCARY.

That suggests that the slide moving forward without having to strip a round (which would slow the slide as the round is stripped from the mag, and slowed more as the round is chambered) is going quite a bit faster than normal, and the inertial movement of the firing pin was enough to ignite the round. If yours was an older BHP (like mine), it probably doesn't have a firing pin block (FPB). If yours is a newer BHP with a FPB, you might want to have it checked out...

I've never heard of that sort of accidental discharge before, but can see how it could happen.

Some guns are designed to allow the extractor to slip over a chambered round; some aren't. (Some newer Berettas will do it without trouble, and I think it's even mentioned in their owner's manual -- but they do have firing pin blocks.)

orionengnr
November 27, 2012, 11:22 PM
You may be surprised to learn how many pistols out there push-feed on a regular basis. Those that are used with smooth-topped followers in 8-round magazines most especially are prone to feeding the last round in this manner.

Ever notice small burrs kicked up on the edges of the rims on some of your brass?

Not sure that I understand the definition of "push-feed". That said...

Tuner, thank you again. Rarely does a day go by without me learning something useful...and as long a it relates to 1911s, so much the better. :)

I am not quite diligent enough to separate my own fired brass from the range brass I gather after my firing session. To be honest, if it is on the floor and behind the firing line, and no-one else has any interest in collecting it...I will clean up that end of the range, and the range masters are always happy to see "someone/anyone" make their job easier.

Long way of saying, of all the brass I collect, maybe 50% of it was fired through my pistol(s).

But I will start looking more closely at the rims.

Maybe I should start marking my cases with a red permanent marker on the base.

GLOOB
November 27, 2012, 11:36 PM
Not sure that I understand the definition of "push-feed"
Push-feed means the extractor follows behind the rim until the round headspaces against the chamber. Then it slips over the rim, just like what the OP is talking about. Lots of rifles, both semi-automatic and bolt actions, as well some blow back pistols operate this way. If you try to operate a push-feed bolt action upside down you better move the bolt in a hurry, or the round will just drop out the top of the action. :)

The method by which most of our modern, locked-breech semiauto handguns feed is called controlled-feed. Because the rim slips behind the extractor, the round is under some kind of control all the way into the chamber.

GBExpat
November 28, 2012, 07:47 AM
delete

Fixed Sight Training
November 28, 2012, 02:32 PM
I can see where topping off your mag could be a hassle on the double stack mags that require a mag loader to get the last couple in.

If it's a big deal just load a practice mag and keep it next to your pistol and carry mags. To load put in the practice mag, chamber a round and then switch to your carry mag. You'll have to reload your practice mag every couple weeks.

beatledog7
November 28, 2012, 03:26 PM
I was loading my Browning Hi Power one time and put a round in the chamber then let the slide go from full lock and that puppy went off. Luckily it was pointed in a safe direction and nobody was hurt. [emphasis added]

Really? That was just luck? Let us hope not.

I'm glad to see this thread got some play and even began to generate a list of pistols that can and can't safely and reliably do this. I have only tried it a couple of times with a Glock 22, on which it didn't work but did no harm. While I don't personally see a need to go add a round to its generous 15-round standard capacity. I don't ever load one from a Barney mag and then insert a full mag, as this has proven difficult with my Glock--with the slide in battery, a full mag is the devil to seat; it would be just as difficult if I could manually load the chamber. I lock the slide back, insert a full 15- or 22-rd mag, and overhand the slide. If that's not enough rounds, I'm dead anyway.

But it seems, where viable, to solve the setback problem. It's been interesting to read you guys' opinions and experiences.

Bovice
November 28, 2012, 10:39 PM
You guys have trouble loading the last few rounds in your double stack mags without a loader and it's a struggle to insert a full mag into a pistol that's in battery?

Quit being manchildren, it's not that hard!

beatledog7
November 28, 2012, 11:35 PM
Thanks for that extraordinary burst of high road, Bovice.

I can slap load a full mag into my in-battery Glock if I choose to; I do not choose to because there's no need. As I implied, if 15 rounds is not enough, one more will make no difference. And yeah, the last .40cal round is a real tight squeeze getting in a 22-rd mag, but with a loader it's a snap.

I'm too seasoned and wise to do things the hard way when I don't have to. I'd rather spend my time shooting than loading mags, especially if I'm paying a range for that time. Life's too short!

Fixed Sight Training
November 29, 2012, 04:10 PM
The real answer is to get a 1911. The last round in the mag is easy to load. Then get an extended 10 rd mag and put it in your pocket. Viola, 19 rds and an extra mag in case the first one malfunctions.

9mmepiphany
November 29, 2012, 04:34 PM
The real answer is to get a 1911.
Where do you think the term bullet setback originated from?

Fixed Sight Training
November 29, 2012, 04:47 PM
All autos will suffer from setback if you load the same round over and over.

So the real solution is get a 1911, load it, get an extra 10 rd mag, load it and get a small safe so you can leave it loaded. Don't forget to bolt the safe down.:D

9mmepiphany
November 29, 2012, 04:56 PM
If you have read the thread and followed the links for background, you'd understand why this isn't an answer to the OP's question.

You'd also understand that the 1911's extractor design defines the concerns of the OP

I'll also note that posting "Get a 1911", as much as "Get a Glock", are the kind of non-responses we are trying to avoid here in Handguns: Autoloaders

1911Tuner
November 29, 2012, 07:53 PM
All autos will suffer from setback if you load the same round over and over.

Not with the proper technique and the right magazine.

Where do you think the term bullet setback originated from?

I put that to the test not long ago with a stock Norinco. (Well...Except for a light extractor tweak and the new springs throughout.)

With one of my handloaded hardball rounds, after verifying the 1.265 OAL...20 chamberings later, the bullet moved .002 inch deeper into the case. I'll go ahead and call that a non-issue.

All my magazines are of the tapered feed lip variety, and the technique is to not let the slide slam the round into the chamber, but rather to allow it to feed smoothly at about half-speed. The tapered lips will allow this. Parallel, or "wadcutter" feed lips usually won't.

I get pretty much the same results with all my pistols...even the unaltered USGIs...even with hollowpoints.

Fixed Sight Training
November 29, 2012, 09:33 PM
If you have read the thread and followed the links for background, you'd understand why this isn't an answer to the OP's question.

You'd also understand that the 1911's extractor design defines the concerns of the OP

I'll also note that posting "Get a 1911", as much as "Get a Glock", are the kind of non-responses we are trying to avoid here in Handguns: Autoloaders
__________________

It was half a joke. Don't take things so seriously. It's supposed to be fun.
But the fact is a single stack mag is much easier to top off making the OPs question moot.
Second, Get a safe $40 safe and leave the thing loaded solves all the above issues.

Mike J
November 29, 2012, 09:58 PM
The OP's concern isn't about the difficulty of topping off a magazine it is about bullet setback. Bullet setback can & does happen if you repeatedly chamber & eject the same round.

I am another Ruger P-series owner & I do remember the owners manual saying you could single load without a magazine as carbonyl described. Personally I load from the magazine with all my Semi-autos.

beatledog7
November 29, 2012, 10:26 PM
Leaving the Glock loaded--yes, that's the gun in question since it is my loaded HD pistol-- is not a solution. The gun gets unloaded when it gets taken to the range, which means the previously chambered round gets ejected. I've been diligent about not re-using these rounds, so now I've got a little herd of them (well, a dozen or so) in an MTM box marked "Don't Shoot."

Granted, it's small potatoes next to my inventory of rounds that have never been chambered, but I don't like wasting anything. Pulling them down is wasting time IF they could be chambered manually and fired OR IF they can be safely chambered again from a mag and fired. Frankly, I think the minute loss of case volume that may have been lost or might be lost with one more chambering is probably moot.

Tomorrow I'll empty the mag and measure all 14 rounds and compare to the one that was chambered. I bet there's no setback at all. If I'm right, next range day I'll load a mag with all those once-chambered rounds and fire away. And that will become my new procedure--unload the Glock for range day, put that one round in a magazine marked for range use only, and fire that mag off when it gets full or close to it.

Mike J
November 29, 2012, 11:34 PM
That is pretty much what I do beatledog. The only ammunition I have ever really noticed any noticeable setback with was some of the cheaper Winchester LEO ammunition. I don't remember what it was called but it came in a gold colored box (it was not Ranger). I haven't noticed it with the Remington Golden Sabers I have been carrying the past couple of years.

Fixed Sight Training
November 30, 2012, 12:17 AM
Leaving the Glock loaded--yes, that's the gun in question since it is my loaded HD pistol-- is not a solution. The gun gets unloaded when it gets taken to the range, which means the previously chambered round gets ejected. I've been diligent about not re-using these rounds, so now I've got a little herd of them (well, a dozen or so) in an MTM box marked "Don't Shoot."

No cartridges are going to suffer setback from one chambering. They get thrown around both in the magazine during recoil and during normal cycling. If you're worried instead of unloading the chambered round at the range why not just shoot it? Or is that not an option at your range?

1SOW
November 30, 2012, 01:11 AM
It should be relatively safe for any gun with a hinged/spring-loaded extractor, but its still going to be a bit harder on the part than letting the round come from the mag.

All I can do is give personal experience with a 9mm CZ 75 with a hinged spring extractor.
It WILL beak. It only took 3 rds in my 75B to weaken it sufficiently to break after about 10 shots.
The extractor is NOT movable when feeding a rd by hand. It is spring loaded to "hold" the in the case extractor groove and "at rest' is steel against steel--not against a spring. The tilt-bbl action slips the case under the extractor during normal feed. The slide will feed a rd by hand and bend the extractor face forward far enough to feed the rd, but the hardened steel is not meant to bend forward.

Other pistols I'm sure are different, but CZ 75s' extractors won't withstand this +1 hand feeding. Rds need to fed from a mag.

beatledog7
November 30, 2012, 08:18 AM
Ok, the results of my admittedly barely-scientific test. I have only four once-chambered rounds vice a dozen (the other seven rounds in the box are 9mm rounds), but that's ok. Here are the measurements in inches (these are Georgia Arms factory reloaded 180gr JHPs in mixed brass):

Rounds in the mag, never chambered:

1.1185
1.119
1.115 (not a typo)
1.1195
1.1175
1.1195
1.1185
1.118
1.120
1.119
1.118
1.120
1.118
1.1185

Once-chambered rounds:

1.1185
1.1185
1.120
1.1185

I'm not even going to calculate the variance or standard deviation. Just a quick visual of the two arrays tells me I'm not getting setback.

FST: I'm in complete agreement with you here. Clearly it's not an issue with this gun and these rounds. No, I can't carry a loaded gun onto the ranges where I shoot, even a CCW, so I have to unchamber the round.

1SOW: Thanks for sharing that. I haven't tried this with my CZs as they aren't typically serving in the HD role. Based on your post, I won't try it.

1911Tuner
November 30, 2012, 03:38 PM
All I can do is give personal experience with a 9mm CZ 75 with a hinged spring extractor.
It WILL beak. It only took 3 rds in my 75B to weaken it sufficiently to break after about 10 shots.
The extractor is NOT movable when feeding a rd by hand. It is spring loaded to "hold" the in the case extractor groove and "at rest' is steel against steel--not against a spring.

In my educated opinion, that's a design flaw...and not because it prevents single-loading.

A magazine malfunction can cause a round to be knocked into the chamber ahead of the slide...forcing either a rim snapover or an outright stoppage.

Walt Sherrill
November 30, 2012, 08:33 PM
A design flaw, or a flawed part.

I have no experience with that sort of problem in CZs, and as a long-time (5-6 years) moderator on the CZ forum, I think I would have heard of it at least once over the years.

I don't doubt that the problem happened as 1SOW described, but wonder if it might possibly have been a defective extractor?

Maybe it IS a design flaw, but one that most folks fail to encounter -- because they don't force-feed rounds in CZs.

1SOW
November 30, 2012, 10:41 PM
Walt: I don't doubt that the problem happened as 1SOW described, but wonder if it might possibly have been a defective extractor?

Maybe it IS a design flaw, but one that most folks fail to encounter -- because they don't force-feed rounds in CZs.

Whether the design is 'flawed' or the designer did what was intended, I can't say. The CZ 75 doesn't have a "pocket" for the case, the extractor design may be related to that.--I'm not smart enough to know.

If you look at the physical 75B extractor, it is a rigid non-flexible structure. The blade that seats into the case extractor groove is hardened and only thins right at the tip. It can be 'forced' to bend inward, but was not designed to do so. How many times it can withstand this is basically a matter of luck. Upon extraction, the force is against the spring while the extractor maintains it's shape.

This has been brought up and illustrated a number of times the past several years.

I witnessed a 'limited class' 1911-40 cal extractor fail in a match this past weekend. It didn't break, it weakened!. STI says to tune them at 5K. Is this too a design flaw/----hmmmm

Bolshevik Muppet
December 1, 2012, 07:49 PM
I've loaded up my Colt Series 70 like this for YEARS.

When I worked as an investigator I made a habit of carrying the stock Colt 7 round mag loaded with an extra in the chamber and carried 2 extra Colt 8 round mags. I did that because having been in a few high stress, low thought situations I know that it's far easier to remember "Eight and out, eight and out, eight and out" than "seven and out, eight and out, eight and out." I slicked the gun up myself and being a 60s era Colt I never worried in the slightest when I loaded up, round in the chamber, letting the slide ram home before loading up the mag, every day.

I am also OCD about my carry ammo, and the only issues I had with any of my rounds was some minor scuffing on the slugs from being partially pushed into the rifling.

If you have a good extractor, it'll take the abuse for ages. When I rebuilt the Colt again this year, extractor was still tugging along like a champ.

1911Tuner
December 1, 2012, 09:56 PM
I witnessed a 'limited class' 1911-40 cal extractor fail in a match this past weekend. It didn't break, it weakened!. STI says to tune them at 5K. Is this too a design flaw/----hmmmm

More likely a magazine flaw causing push-feeds.

I don't remember the last time I had to retension one of my extractors, but it's been years. Up until about 2 years ago, I was burnin' a minimum of 500 rounds a week through two dedicated beaters. If I had to tune the extractors every 5,000 rounds, I think I'd be a mite upset.

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