Seeking Custom Gunsmith


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C11H26NO2PS
November 27, 2012, 10:34 PM
Hello THR,

I am looking for a gunsmith with a surplus of time on their hands to create a 100% custom handgun from scratch. I am able to provide copious details via email, but I will not disclose them over the forum because they are... Laughable...

I will divulge this much:
-It will take year(s) to complete; I can wait. Also, I can pay.
-One-of-a-Kind Longslide semi-automatic handgun
-Will need to be completely custom designed and assembled.
-Not a NFA item, but it will certainly almost push the envelope.
-You'll be challenged in ways that your gunsmithing has never faced.

If your interest is piqued, PM me, or email me @ furiously.angry.driver@gmail.com

If you enjoyed reading about "Seeking Custom Gunsmith" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Jim K
November 28, 2012, 02:27 PM
You might be better looking for a custom machine shop rather than a gunsmith. Most good gunsmiths (and even some not-so-good ones) are overbooked and taking off for a year would be bad for future business.

A custom machine shop is used to doing exactly the kind of work you want and is not tied to a customer base, plus will have equipment the average gunsmith probably does not.

You should also check into the legal issues involved, no matter who you hire to do the work. A manufacturer's license might be necessary to keep things legal.

Jim

C11H26NO2PS
November 29, 2012, 12:48 AM
Jim,

Appreciate the suggestion, and I shall endeavor to search. Would a custom machine shop be able to draw up schematics, or would that be on me to draw them?

I assume if I can get an approved Form 1, then I could get any shop to make what I need, and the only "skiffy" part is the lower receiver.

Of the many problems I'm facing:
-Gravestone Milling machines lack the dimensions to cut what I need cut, and a weld-job would be unacceptable.
-Need the barrel to get plated (could just look to a plater for that, though)
-Dealing with a near-Wildcat caliber, so I need the experience of a gunsmith to work through issues like sizing.

I've been looking for a willing Gunsmith for two years. Two years to the day, in fact... So it's not a project I want rushed. If I could find someone to work on it as a side project in between typical projects, I'd be happy (as long as I can see reported progress, naturally).

-Teddy

Flyincedar
November 29, 2012, 12:31 PM
You'll definitely need an 07 FFL to produce the lower, since you arent doing it yourself. In that case, you are obviously better off having an 07 do the whole thing, so it all flows together properly without too many irons in the fire.

On top of that, with an 07 making it, once finished it will have to go to ATF Tech Branch so that they can evaluate your "newly designed" firearm. Who knows how long that could take, before you could even consider taking possession

C11H26NO2PS
December 3, 2012, 04:45 PM
Flyincedar,

I've never had an unreasonable wait-time from the ATF yet. And if they say that it's class 3 (which it isn't) then that's one more form for me to fill out.

Any chance your shop has the time and resources to hear me out in my project request?

-Teddy

M-Cameron
December 3, 2012, 05:21 PM
alright, im curious.....just what are you thinking of having built?

also, have you tried contacting Gun Smoke (the american guns people)....they seem to have the resources to tackle some pretty custom builds.

TAKtical
December 3, 2012, 06:24 PM
You will have to keep us updated on this. I couldnt even find a smith willing to chop a full rail trp operator down to commander length. Seems like every good smith in the country is up to their eyeballs in work. Im interested to see who wants to take on your project.

BigHossCCF
December 4, 2012, 01:10 PM
As an 07 myself...I'm very interested in "following" this build...

Jim Watson
December 4, 2012, 02:02 PM
My usual response to Internet Projects of this type is that it is going to be difficult to find somebody willing to take time away from regular work on known quantities to do a one off.

Yours sounds more extreme than most.

Also "Would a custom machine shop be able to draw up schematics, or would that be on me to draw them?" sounds as if you don't really have a design, just an idea, and the builder would have to do a lot of design and even testing. Of course that is hard to be sure of, what with your embarassment over public disclosure of your hobby horse.

45_auto
December 4, 2012, 08:59 PM
How much are you willing to pay for someone to do your design (cad) and machining?

I'm a mechanism design engineer for a large defense company, a gunsmith, and own a machine shop. I tend to build Gatling guns as a hobby.

You're probably looking at a minimum of a couple of weeks of design time (80 hours), then a couple of weeks of tooling and machining (another 80 hours).

If you can find someone to do it for you for $50/hour (good luck with that, ain't gonna happen) then you would still be looking at $8,000 plus materials.

How much are you willing to spend on your project?

Byrd666
December 4, 2012, 09:29 PM
45

Being a Designer myself, you have pretty much nailed Minimal cost. Then of course the cost of retooling machines and building jig(s) for the item(s) in question is questionable at best for most shops. Even though it is possible that a Hungry individual might be able to help him him out.


C11H26NO2PS
p m me
I know a couple guys that Might, repeat, Might be able to help. No promises, and it'll prob'ly take a day or six to find out. Read as, gotta find numbers, and find out if they are still in business/working.

Byrd

PowderMonkey
December 4, 2012, 09:49 PM
C11H26NO2PS is a VX nerve gas chemical with no known purposes other than chemical warfare.

Thought I'd share. ; )

C11H26NO2PS
December 5, 2012, 06:39 PM
I'm beginning to contact the interested parties who have either PM'd me or requested a PM.

I have been hesitant to disclose information because I have been laughed at, hung-up on, and (best one yet) : lectured on the myriad ways my project would fail.

I'll disclose this much openly:
-Handgun
-Semi-automatic, Magazine-fed
-Chambered in a wildcat cartridge

Responses:
@M-Cameron: The folks at Gunsmoke are probably up to their necks in requests from all over the world of 'hey couldja build this' from folks who have seen the show. As awesome as it would be to see my build televised, I doubt I have a 'touching emotional story about why this piece needs to be built.'
@TAKtical: Yep, most smiths attached to the big-name companies are on years of backorders as a result of the, shall we say, political climate?
@BigHossCCF: Updates will be posted as progress is made and obstacles are encountered.
@Jim Watson: You're right about 'smiths not wanting to take time from their regular work for a time-sink-project. Why build a frankengun when you know you'll get a set paycheck from polishing a feedramp? (That's not a slight against any gunsmith, I'm just sympathizing with economic certainties of "We do this; We do it well" versus "You want a whatchamacallit attached to the turboflange?"). And the limited disclosure is the result of some pretty emphatic "NO's" that I've received...
@.45 Auto: As long as I still have the means to fund the project, and I am assured that progress is being made. This is a once-in-a-lifetime build that will be the culminating achievement of my collection.
@Byrd666: I'll send you a PM with more details. Alex Zimmerman of Guncrafter Industries had some very eye-opening advice, and among the most inspiring: 'Find a semi-retired gunsmith who has the tools to do the job, and is looking for the challenge.'
@PowderMonkey: Yep, you certainly know your science. Or you can recognize a formula.

Thanks to everyone who's taken the time to read, and to everyone who wants to stay informed on progress.

-Teddy

Jim Watson
December 6, 2012, 12:35 AM
You could contact Bellmore-Johnson Tool Co.

Their first catch on a search is as the manufacturer of the Winchester Signal Cannon but they used to do prototype work for High Standard and I think Melvin Johnson.


Would the Colorado School of Trades gunsmithing department take it on as a class project?

C11H26NO2PS
December 6, 2012, 03:23 AM
Mr. Watson, Bellmore-Johnson Tool Co. seems to specialize in (or be exclusive in the manufacture of) 10 gauge cannons. Specialist manufacturers have a tendency to have 'found their niche,' and 'change is bad.' At least in my experience.

As for the Colorado School of Trades... I think I've found where I'm going to college once I get the Bachelor's degree I'm currently pursuing... Colorado is Class III friendly, right? If they would undertake the project, it would be their Design and Function Course, but their curriculum is probably set in stone.
(Or milled in steel, eh? eh? "Milled," 'cuz they desi... 2 AM isn't too early for puns.)

dirtyjim
December 6, 2012, 11:57 AM
another problem you will have with a first class smith is they will not want their name associated with something thats laughable, once they have reached that level they can pick and choose the projects they take on.
they will also have a long waiting list and the only way your going to get on that list is by commisioning the project and dropping a substantial deposit to hold your place in line. so you would be looking at around a $5000+ deposit plus around two years before the project could even start.

to me your best bet would be to buy you a mill and lathe and start learning how to use them.

C11H26NO2PS
December 7, 2012, 01:50 AM
@Dirtyjim,

I could live with a sizeable retainer like that, but as long as I had assurance progress was being made. Progress yields Payment. If I make a down payment, I expect a start effort. Placed on a back burner a few months while they chamfer some Hi-Points and mechanically zero some Arisakas... That I could live with.

I say 'laughable' in that the difficulty is on par with 'Nintendo Hard,' a gunsmith that completed this project would get a line of one-of-a-kind orders.

I have neither the mechanical know-how nor facilities to house a mill of my very own. Would that I could? Absolutely. Right after I get my C&R, FFL, SOT, and save the cosmoverse from radioactive Chernobyl superzombies.

dirtyjim
December 8, 2012, 10:40 AM
i don't think your getting it.
a smith who is capable of scratch building one off firearms is not going to be chamfering a few hi-points or sighting in arisakas. they have a long waiting list and a high price tag, $10,000+ per project.
generally you will discuss your project and agree upon a price but in the case of one-off it will more than likely be a time and materials job with a ballpark price unless the gunmaker has built similar projects in the past. you might try to find something similar and see who built it.

the way the pricing and deposit works is once you agree on the price and the gunmaker agrees to take on the project you pay 1/3 down. all this does is holds your place in line for the an average of 18-24 months depending on the gunmaker until your project comes into the rotation, if you cancel you generally loose the deposit. when its halfway finished you pay another 1/3rd and the the final 1/3rd on completion

Flyincedar
December 8, 2012, 11:25 AM
Thats definitely a case by case basis dirtyjim. Any custom order in our shop requires a 50% non refundable deposit. We used to do a 20% deposit, but after some cancelled orders that shouldnt have been placed to start with because the customer couldnt afford the end price tag, we went to our current policy.

Jim Watson
December 8, 2012, 02:26 PM
If your Laughable Secret Project can be put on a 1911 action, Joe Chambers has done some very exotic work. He built a mirror image pair of guns and had to fabricate most of the lefthanded parts.

If it cannot, Fred Craig has done some off the wall stuff of his own design. He might be willing to work on your design now that the TCM is in production.

C11H26NO2PS
December 8, 2012, 09:34 PM
@Dirtyjim: If I could put 33% down with the guarantee that the gunsmith would see the project through to completion or my money back if he calls off, then I would be agreeable to 33/33/33. If for whatever reason, 24 months elapses, and I don't hear any thing back, I think it's reasonable to expect a refund so I could find a different gunsmith. I used Hi-Point as an example of "We have our niche, we know what makes us money, we'll make your One-Off, but only when business is slow enough for us to attend to it." (Silly, Dirtyjim... everyone knows that you don't gunsmith a Saturday Night Special like a Hi-Point...)

@Flyincedar: Sucks that a bunch of 'customers' ditched out on their builds, and I can respect your shop's bump up to 50% down. That's all pending an Up-Front assessed price from the gunsmith. I expect this build will be a little more fluid, especially in the department of materials costs: "Oh, you wanted depleted uranium, satellite-guided, discarding-sabots... Well, that'll run ya a little more'n what we quoted you at the beginning." (Not that I'm looking for 'SGDSDU,' but I don't know how large of a billet would be needed to make a longslide?)

@Jim Watson: Joe Chambers's work is quite astounding, and the price tag on his Mirror Image .45's rings about right for the level of work required to make such a Piece/Pair. If I hear back all negatives from the gunsmiths who've PM'd me thus far, I will get into contact with Mr. Chambers.
Thank you.
I mean no offense but Fred Craig doesn't seem to be taking orders as I'm looking for in my One-Off. His Super Duty .45 and the Merc M11 are both impressive platforms, but it seems all of his efforts are towards the Micro-Mag at present.

Additionally, can someone explain the etymology of 'one-off?' I've never heard that term prior to this thread.

-Teddy

*Ahem* Gyroscopically-Stabilized Satellite-Guided Discarding Sabot Depleted Uranium rounds, or GSSGDSDU, is the new term that we're coining from this thread. Coming soon to a fighting force near you!
Armor-Piercing Gyroscopically-Stabilized Discarding Sabot
Flies Through this tank, and that tank, these buildings and this table
Satellite-Guidance--most advanced tech of the future
Input coordinates, pull trigger, flies truer
Not even within eyesight of the target is the shooter

M-Cameron
December 8, 2012, 09:46 PM
Additionally, can someone explain the etymology of 'one-off?' I've never heard that term prior to this thread.


http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/04/magazine/04FOB-onlanguage-t.html?_r=0

C11H26NO2PS
December 8, 2012, 10:24 PM
Thank you, M-Cameron. That was an interesting read. And sates my quota for 'Learn New Things Today.' I tip my proverbial hat to thee.

-Teddy

dirtyjim
December 9, 2012, 01:20 PM
if you were to give a few details of what you have in mind for your project other than its "laughable and ninitindo hard"and what you would want it built from along with a little more info on the wildcat caliber you might get some suggestions on builders and material costs.

i'm also curious to your age, for some reason i get the impression that your under 20.
i know i drove a few gunsmiths and hot rod shops nuts with my oddball requests when i was in my teens.

45_auto
December 9, 2012, 02:21 PM
If I could put 33% down with the guarantee that the gunsmith would see the project through to completion or my money back if he calls off, then I would be agreeable to 33/33/33. If for whatever reason, 24 months elapses, and I don't hear any thing back, I think it's reasonable to expect a refund so I could find a different gunsmith.

So let's say we decide your project is going to take 2 weeks (80 hours) of design/CAD time and 2 weeks (80 hours) of machining at $50/hour. That's $8000. I'll give you the material free, it's going to be a very minimal part of the costs.

At $2500 down, that buys you 50 hours of CAD time. That means that I work on it one 40 hour week and one additional day. You're still short 30 hours of design time before machining even starts.

Now at this point you believe that if you don't come up with any additional funds, and I don't do anything else on your project because I'm waiting on those additional funds from you for 2 years, that I should give you your $2500 back? Even though I put 50 hours of work into it?

I think I've found where I'm going to college once I get the Bachelor's degree I'm currently pursuing

You may want to throw a few business courses in as electives.

Flyincedar
December 9, 2012, 03:30 PM
And the $50 an hour is a low estimate even. Someone that knows what they are doing will easily cost more than that. Even personally being interested in the project, there is no way that I would do it for $50 an hour.

45_auto, the scenario you mentioned perfectly describes why we require a non refundable deposit. No way I'm refunding a penny for work completed, because someone changed their mind. I have before, never again. I can't imagine anyone actually doing that, and can't believe that I ever did.

C11H26NO2PS
December 9, 2012, 10:54 PM
@dirtyjim: Here are more requested details.
Chambered in .454 Casull
10" Barrell Longslide Magazine-fed Semi-Auto
Patterned after Colt 1903 & 1911
Browning Short-Recoil Action (Gas Actuation, like a Wildey or Desert Eagle will not suffice)
Care will need to be taken in regards to the timing, as a 1911 would be out of battery before the round exits a 10" barrel...
Since it's a non-standard round for an Auto, everything will need to be scaled-up proportionately to house a round that is factory hot.
The barrel will need to be very thick to withstand the 59,000+ psi
Additionally, I am 23 years old. I just finished a four-year term in the Army, including a year-long tour in Afghanistan.

@45_auto: The "24 Months" scenario I wrote previously is assuming that the down payment was made solely to 'reserve my place in line,' and that no progress had been made. If $2500 exhausts 6 days of CAD, and more funds are required for further work, then by all means I'll send more money.
On the other hand, it's a certainty that my money was for naught if I'm made to wait 24 months and one magical July morning, "Uh, Mr. So-and-So, I'm about to start drawing up that, uh, what did you want again?"
As for your recommendation of business electives, I select classes Tuesday.

@Flyincedar: Completed work is completed work; No refunds. 24 months, nothing happened; next gunsmith, please.

-Teddy

Jim Watson
December 9, 2012, 11:44 PM
FYI the LAR Grizzly was made in calibers up through .45 Win Mag and .44 Magnum.
There was a 10" barrel version but the barrel protruded 1" - 1.5" so the slide would cover an 8.5" - 9" or thereabouts.
See at
http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg/usa/lar-grizzly-e.html

So what you are talking about is a 15-20% scaleup of an existing firearm that was itself a scaleup of the standard 1911.

I don't see any mechanical reason not to build it.
The regular 6.5" Grizzly only weighs 48 oz, so your big brother ought to come in not much over 4 lbs.
The big hangup will be grip size. The Grizzly has a very broad grip to hold 7x.45WM. Enlarging it to hold .454 Casul with the stagger needed to get rimmed cartridges in a box magazine will make it huge.

C11H26NO2PS
December 10, 2012, 12:47 AM
I had forgotten the LAR Grizzly. When it was mentioned to me as a candidate for the parent-gun, my favorite near-by gun store had one in stock but it's long since been purchased. That would be the closest thing to what I seek, and only a few components would need to be remade big enough to contain .454.

Yeah, I guess a 115-120% 1911 would be about the same frame size.
Just elongate the frame, slide and barrel out to ten inches.
4 Pounds seems light for a handgun that large... My Mark 23 with it's full kit weighs easily 5 pounds, and that's on a polymer frame. I was anticipating between 7 to 10 pounds, which would be preferable to tame the .454. I mean, It's certainly not going to be my quickdraw handgun, right?

You mentioned that the Rimmed casing will need to be staggered. The gunsmiths that I have spoken to thus far all told me the same thing that it wouldn't be worth their time to do all the effort for a Rimmed cartridge, and that the magazines would need to be specially designed to accommodate it. Could you expound upon that a little more, please? Would it work as a single-stack magazine? How did Coonan make the .357 semi-automatic feed properly?
I'm expecting nothing more than a 6 + 1 capacity.

Jim Watson
December 10, 2012, 01:01 AM
When I say staggered, I do not mean double column like a Browning or a Mauser.

The internal cross section of the magazine is tapered, either made that way or with ribs impressed near the front. That lets the bullet and case neck stack vertically and the rimmed caseheads set out with just enough stagger to stay vertical.
Look at the Desert Eagle magazine
http://www.magnumresearch.com/Desert-Eagle-Magazines/Desert-Eagle-Magazines.asp
and see how the ribs narrow it at the front but let the rims splay out at the rear.

Or you could go with a plain single column like a S&W M52 but would be limited to 5 shots before the nose down position of the top round limited feeding.


Maybe I was conservative on the weight. But there are aluminum and titanium to work with.

dirtyjim
December 10, 2012, 11:03 AM
there are a ton of grizzly 45's on gunbroker and it should be possible to use one as a base. on the grip you'll need to come up with around .200" more room lengthwise & around .040" more width at the rear for the rim for the magazine. you might also be able to lengthen the standard desert eagle magazine by .200" and rebuild the grip around that.

since your in texas you might try buying a grizzly, a desert eagly 44 magazine, a box of 454casull and filling a wheelbarrow full of money.
place the grizzly, the ammo and the magazine on top of the wheelbarrow full of money and push it inside briley pistol in houston and say combine these.

who knows, you may end up with something like this
http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs14/f/2007/064/4/5/Hellsing_ARM__454_Casull_Auto_by_Rethana.jpg

C11H26NO2PS
December 10, 2012, 12:57 PM
@Jim Watson: Thank you for the clarification. I have a thing for titanium, so I'd gladly be on board with that. Also, Desert Eagle magazines are only $47!? HK factory Mark 23 magazines are $70.

@dirtyjim: Your unnecessary sarcasm aside, that's exactly what I'm seeking. Thank you for the input on what areas of the parent gun will require modification. And I prefer this image for the multiple angles: http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100810170149/hellsing/images/5/51/Casull_Profile.jpg
Your snide remark about the wheelbarrow full o' money may be what is necessary to get a gunsmith to take this project seriously. I made this thread to find out how it CAN be done.

Jim Watson
December 10, 2012, 02:09 PM
The prototype might take two Grizzlys.

Cut the frames vertically but unequally through the butt.
Weld the long sections together to form a magazine well long enough for .454.
It worked for John Martz making up .45 ACP Lugers.

Cut the front end off of one slide and weld it to the other to accomodate a 10" barrel.
That worked for Jim Clark making up Longslide target pistols.

Fabricate a barrel, magazine, and trigger.
Open up the breechface for the larger .454 rim, and if necessary, modify for longer slide travel to pick up the longer round out of the magazine.

After that, it is timing of the action, setting of spring strengths and general tinkering to get it to shoot.

Then get out the BIG checkbook to have a nice one made up from scratch with the cosmetics you want.

rcmodel
December 10, 2012, 02:10 PM
Seems to me what you want is a .50 AE Desert Eagle.

It is a gas operated rotary bolt design much better suited to handling the recoil and pressures you are talking about.

They already make it in a few rimmed Magnum revolver calibers.

But I don't know of any company ever making a browning long-recoil design strong enough to handle a .454 Casull's 65,000 PSI pressure. Or even tried too.

I personally think you are barking up a pretty tall tree, no matter how much money you have to spend.

rc

dirtyjim
December 10, 2012, 02:11 PM
at briley the wheelbarrew full of money is just to get them to unlock the door.
i'm not even sure if they still take on that kind of work, but about 20 years ago they had a guy there from south africa that was more than capable of building exactly what your asking for. he actualy started their pistol division and may be retired now, i can't even remember his name anymore.

Jim Watson
December 10, 2012, 02:11 PM
But he said he did not want gas operation.
John Browning knew best.

a guy there from south africa

That was Claudio Salassa.
I would send it to Jim Boland... if he were still alive.

rcmodel
December 10, 2012, 02:18 PM
But he said he did not want gas operation.Regardless of what he said.

He is going to have to use it to handle .454 pressure.

rc

C11H26NO2PS
December 10, 2012, 08:35 PM
It's unfortunate that many of the great gunsmiths of the golden age of handmade firearms are dying off without an apprentice or heir. It's a diminishing trade.

I'm certain that I'm not looking for a Desert Eagle for this project, unless it's to adapt the ribbed magazines. Jim Watson's example of the Two-Grizzly Prototype is actually something to look into, especially in that the endeavor has worked for other projects. And I will keep in mind Briley & Claudio Salassa.

If it's properly reinforced, and granted that will take considerable effort, then it will handle .454's chamber pressures.

-Teddy

C11H26NO2PS
December 17, 2012, 06:56 AM
Quick Update to those that are following this thread:

I've gotten a few interested inquiries, waiting on a final verdict before anything can start moving forward.

BBBBill
December 17, 2012, 11:25 AM
I seriously doubt that a Grizzly slide could be used for prototyping. The 454 is .020"/5mm longer than a 45 WinMag. Don't think it would clear the ejection port. If so, the ejection port would need to be opened up further forward. To allow room for that, the locking lugs would have to be machined further forward in the slide/on the barrel and I would add at least one more lug. Possibly go to a square profile ala SIG/Glock, though that would be dictated by the dimensions of the pressure vessel required to contain it. Fitting would definitely have to be on the scale of a bullseye gun to get all lugs engaging/working. The usual loose fit of some lugs that works on my beloved 1911 would never let a 454 chambered gun survive.

Jim K
December 17, 2012, 10:13 PM
Is the idea to use a link? That was not one of JMB's better ideas and was a carryover from the double link pistols. Using a system like the BHP or better yet like the CZ 75 will allow a significant increase in dwell time without increasing frame length that much.

That should allow more flexibility in dealing with high pressure before bullet exit.

Jim

C11H26NO2PS
December 19, 2012, 01:34 AM
@BBBBill: Yeah, heavy modifications would need to be made all around to facilitate a Casull. It's a pretty square profile to begin with, based off the pictures. And yes, I'd expect match-grade accuracy for the kind of money I'll have to put into this.

@Jim K: What do you mean a 'Link?' I'm not familiar with that term either. I love my CZ 75 to death, but I don't want a second handgun that looks just like it (Unless it's a Short-Rail... but that's not the point). I'm least concerned with increasing frame length; I expect this beast to rock a 10" barrel on a 39 cm frame.

As always, your feedback is much appreciated.
-Teddy

45_auto
December 19, 2012, 07:19 AM
You're designing a semi-automatic pistol and you're not familiar with how a 1911 works? Kind of like starting out with square wheels on your car. Research is your friend.

The link Jim K was referring to is the link on a 1911 that connects the barrel to the frame. It allows the rear of the barrel to pivot downwards and disengages the recoil lugs from the slide after the slide/barrel has traveled rearward a specific distance, at which time the bullet has exited the barrel and chamber pressures have dropped to a safe level.

The link was eliminated in later pistol designs.

You can see the link just below the chamber and how it works in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3NRyP7uFI0

Jim K
December 19, 2012, 08:51 PM
The link system was fine with the .45 ACP (and earlier with the .38 ACP) but it does not allow much adjustment to the timing. The link has to be a certain length (OK, you can fudge a bit) and that pretty well precludes any adjustment to the dwell time. But with a cartridge like the .454, it seems to me you want an extended locked time to allow the residual pressure to drop. Even if you can keep the breech closed until the bullet leaves the barrel, the residual pressure of that round might be enough to blow/bulge cases if the breech is allowed to open too soon.

Many folks consider John Browning a genius at gun design, and he was. But he was not an engineer and had no help from a CAD program. He was an empirical designer of the old school, working out ideas on paper then going to metal, with maybe a wooden model for proof of concept along the way. Today's engineers and designers have advantages JMB never had; much of the work can be done on a computer, not on a milling machine or lathe, and dirt under the finger nails and spirals of steel in the shoe soles are no longer signs of a designer at work. (Joke: How do you know a man is a machinist in the winter time? He is the one who doesn't slip on the ice.)

Jim

lathedog
December 20, 2012, 12:16 AM
I see you are getting plenty of advice.

Be sure to post pics and a range report when this new pistol is complete.

C11H26NO2PS
December 20, 2012, 01:10 AM
@45_auto: Ok, so I'm not a wizard with technical names of components. I'm also not a 1911 owner or shooter. I could probably name 80% of the components in an M16A2, but I'm not trying to design a gas impingement, rotating-bolt system. Thank you for the video, it was helpful in completing the explanation. I made this thread to learn, get advice, and recommendations for the project. I am accomplishing all three of those tasks.

@Jim K: Thank you for the added detail about the link system. I'm aware that timing is going to be the biggest (well, there'll be a lot of big) functional obstacle in making this work. Today's engineers and designers also design things like... Jiminez & Raven Arms... so, just because they have CAD doesn't mean they're taking advantage of it. Heh.

@lathedog: Once design and production start (I still don't have a start date), I will post updates, and the occasional bump, as I receive them. Range Performance and Gallery will also be posted. When available. I fear that might not be for years though, as per estimates earlier posters gave on wait-times.

On an unrelated subject: What are you guys thinking about the scarcity of AR15's? Not to mention the price gouging.

Regards,
-Teddy

45_auto
December 20, 2012, 05:53 AM
If you can design, produce, and market a better gun at the same price point as a Jiminez or Raven, you'll easily make enough to fund your project within the first few weeks of sales.

C11H26NO2PS
December 20, 2012, 08:32 PM
Touché!

Moreover, I got something in mind I call the 'Petite,' but I'd be marketing to female shooters. :-/

RpRR
December 24, 2012, 02:57 AM
Gentlemen:
I discovered this thread while searching for any new info on the LAR Grizzly pistols of which I have several including one being modified by Huntington to take the Wildey .475 cartridge.
Anyway.
Why bother with designing a new pistol to take rimmed .454 cartridges when the .45 Colt can be loaded to same performance as can the .45 Win. Mag. (the long case only serves the purpose not allowing it to be fitted into .45 Colt revolvers.)

Even at that the .450 NAA Magnum cartridge is already rimless and the same length as the .454 Casull for all practical purposes (I have one).

There seems to be no logical reason to build this firearm as many already exist can equal, or surpass, its supposed performance and would fit the hand far better.
If one insists on spending a bucket load of money, a modified, heavily if desired, Grizzly pistol to take cartridge x,y or z would logically make far more sense.

Well I just wanted to add my two-bits.
Merry Christmas to all and to all a good night!

C11H26NO2PS
December 25, 2012, 01:17 AM
To everyone keeping up with this thread: Merry Christmas to you & your's!

-Teddy

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