Titegroup User Questions?


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powwowell
November 28, 2012, 03:10 PM
I have a some questions about three, 9mm, Titegroup powder loads.

1) Is 4.4 grains of Titegroup under 124 grain Berry HP's, with an OAL of 1.040 safe?

2) Is 4.4 grains of Titegroup under, 124 grain Berry RN's, with an OAL of 1.150 safe?

3) Is 4.7 grains of Titegroup under, 115 grain Precision Delta FMJ's, with an OAL of 1.135 safe?

The pistols are a full size, all steel, EAA Witness and a Kahr CW9.

I have Lee, Lyman and Hodgdon books. They do not agree on maximum loads. I'm just asking if the above loads are safe. Thanks for opinions.

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Centurian22
November 28, 2012, 04:52 PM
My first opinion is to list the caliber you are loading for near the beginning of your post. It was only through the listing of guns at the end that identified this positively as 9mm. I mean no offense, just trying to be helpful and I see load questions posted without calibers listed on an almost daily basis.

As to the data I would reference a book (several if possible) as well as using online sourses like http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp (if they have titegroup).

RustyFN
November 28, 2012, 05:29 PM
A load manual or two would be a great tool. You can find the answers to your questions in there. My best advice is to start near the starting charge in the manual and work the load up for your guns. Looks to me like what you have written in your post are closer to max.

tightgroup tiger
November 28, 2012, 06:08 PM
1) Is 4.4 grains of Titegroup under 124 grain Berry HP's, with an OAL of 1.040 safe?

2) Is 4.4 grains of Titegroup under, 124 grain Berry RN's, with an OAL of 1.150 safe?

3) Is 4.7 grains of Titegroup under, 115 grain Precision Delta FMJ's, with an OAL of 1.135 safe?


I won't answer if it is safe or not. What I will do is tell you what I have loaded and why I loaded it that way.


I have loaded 4.5 gr of titegroup at 1.035 down to 1.125 and it shot well. I won't go below 1.125"on that load

I have and still do load 4.3gr of titegroup at 1.070"and won't go below that OAL.

Titegroup is a little spikey at times and unlike Unique, it isn't very forgiving if my powder measure adds an extra .1 of a grain at an already near max charge on a round that is already way under what the published data states for OAL.

I have to load some of my 9mms short (1.070) because my Keltec pf9 is short chambered, and I also have to load at 4.3 grains of titegroup so it will reliably cycle,
That doesn't give me a lot of safety margin to work with on a gun that doesn't have a 100% +P rating.

That's as far as I'm willing to go.

GLOOB
November 28, 2012, 11:59 PM
My first opinion is to list the caliber you are loading for near the beginning of your post. It was only through the listing of guns at the end that identified this positively as 9mm. I mean no offense, just trying to be helpful and I see load questions posted without calibers listed on an almost daily basis.
And now we have a responder giving powder charges and OAL's without listing a bullet weight. He also seems to have a wandering 1/0 in there, somewhere. :)

evan price
November 29, 2012, 06:57 AM
I will say that I load the plated 124 RN and HP bullets with 4.4 of Titegroup. My OAL for the RNs is 1.125". I don't recall offhand the OAL for the HP bullet but I did it such that the same depth of bullet was in the case (so obviously it was a shorter OAL).

I have loaded 115-gr Nosler 115-gr JHPs with 4.7 gr of Titegroup at 1.125" OAL and they worked quite well. This is .1 under max published data. I also load to a +P charge with a personally worked up load that is not published.

I load a +P 9mm with a personally worked-up, over max published data, not in a book, using Rainier 124-grain plated HP with Titegroup and it works great in my Keltec Sub-2000 carbine and as a good analogue to Speer Gold Dot 124-gr +P for practice.

tightgroup tiger
November 29, 2012, 07:01 AM
And now we have a responder giving powder charges and OAL's without listing a bullet weight. He also seems to have a wandering 1/0 in there, somewhere.

Look at the top of my post at the quote from the op.

frankge
November 29, 2012, 07:21 AM
For USPSA production 9mm Minor

124g Montana Gold JHP/FMJ, 4.1g TG, 1.135 - Glock 34/17 makes power factor all day

jwrowland77
November 29, 2012, 07:55 AM
4.7 for even a 115gr sure seems like a lot. I think my Hornady manual say 4.5-4.6 as max.

My load for my Walther PPS is:
OAL 1.150
115 FMJ Winchester
4.1 gr Titegroup

918v
November 29, 2012, 11:59 AM
Why are you loading it so hot with the fastest burning powder and then asking if its safe?

You'll get best accuracy in the 3.7-4 grain range and it will operate all your guns reliably. Even at max pressure, TG won't simulate factory ammo recoil so there is no good reason to go there.

powwowell
November 29, 2012, 01:28 PM
"Why are you loading it so hot with the fastest burning powder and then asking if its safe?

You'll get best accuracy in the 3.7-4 grain range and it will operate all your guns reliably. Even at max pressure, TG won't simulate factory ammo recoil so there is no good reason to go there."

Bad judgement on my part. I've loaded some rounds, then had second thoughts.

Mild Titegroup loads have been exceptionally dirty for me. I don't give a rat's, you know what, about factory recoil. I read the 4.8 Titegroup as max and thought I would be OK with 4.7. One poster has responded that it was OK. I'll either fire them, or pull them. If I fire them, I'll report back my findings.

You have 3,288 posts and I assume that you have much experience in reloading. Haven't you ever questioned yourself? Especially in your first year? Thanks for the 3.7 to 4 grain load recommendation.

918v
November 29, 2012, 01:40 PM
Dirty how? Because there's soot on the outside of the case? Can you measure the difference in the smount of soot between 3.7 and 4.7 grains? Does the extra 1/10,000th of a grain in soot induce malfunctions in your gun? Or is this about how your brass looks?

floydster
November 29, 2012, 03:25 PM
Now boys, be nice, we are all here to learn:)

powwowell
November 29, 2012, 03:58 PM
Yeah, soot on the cases. I don't know what difference the soot level would be between 3.7 and 4.7 grains.

Thanks anyway, but I'm gone, with my questions, elsewhere.

918v
November 29, 2012, 04:13 PM
So the appearance of a fired case is more important than cartridge performance. I'm just trying to learn what my priorities should be.

tightgroup tiger
November 29, 2012, 06:30 PM
The suiting on the cases with 9mms, in my experience, usually come from the cases being shot enough time that they are work hardened to the point that they don't conform to the chamber as well as new soft supple brass will. That's why (in my opinion) factory loads always look so clean after they are fired.
The powder the factory uses is probably cleaner then what we get but with my brass, the once fired new stuff stay really clean until it's been shot a few times.

Normal life cycle of the 9mm, do we throw them away when we start seeing soot? No, it cost to much. I don't throw mine away until I start seeing split cases.

Part of the life cycle of old brass, you can't defeat the soot by loading them hotter, I have tried it and it don't work and 9mm is to short to safely re-anneal.

evan price
November 30, 2012, 10:18 AM
In my experience I get the best groups, function and clean brass from running Titegroup up towards max loads.

I tried the 4.0 grain loads and had FTF/FTE problems in some pistols and my Sub-2000 had lots of jams. Bumped to 4.2 grains and pistols were happier but sub2K still had some issues. Bumping to 4.4 grains Titegroup with a 124 grain at 1.125" got me exactly what I wanted. Works in everything reliably, cycles everything well, not a beating to shoot.

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