JHP's damaging feed ramp?


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Pyro
November 28, 2012, 05:08 PM
I was purchasing an older Ballister Molina, to which I told the store worker I know "If you polish that feed ramp I'll buy it". It's fed JHP's like a champ since but I've noticed the feed ramp actually starting to rough up as a result of shooting JHP's I'm guessing, the edge of the jacket causing minute indents where it impacts the feed ramp before chambering. Anyone else seen this before in guns not designed to carry JHP's?

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holdencm9
November 28, 2012, 05:11 PM
I am not familiar with this pistol. Does it have an exceptionally steep feed ramp? What is it made of? I guess I just don't see how the copper jacket could damage hardened steel, even with a ton of repetitive hits. Are you sure what you see isn't just superficial marks?

beatledog7
November 28, 2012, 05:16 PM
Sounds like what you're seeing is bits of your bullets being deposited on the ramp rather than gouging the ramp.

del4
November 28, 2012, 05:19 PM
I'm with holdercm9. I don't see where lead and copper can damage a steel ramp. See if you can clean it off.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I997 using Tapatalk 2

Certaindeaf
November 28, 2012, 05:51 PM
Never heard of that.. can't see how it's possible. Maybe it's from the case mouths and steel cases?

NG VI
November 28, 2012, 09:09 PM
Are you using diamond dusted JHPs?

gamestalker
November 28, 2012, 11:22 PM
Na, I shoot JHP's nearly exclusively through my AL's and have never seen that happen, and I've been using them for over 4 decades. If a copper jacket could do that to the ramp, it would destroy a barrel in one shooting session or so. Try polishing it, I'll bet it goes away?

GS

chris in va
November 29, 2012, 01:26 AM
I have 'matte' marks on my CZ's otherwise polished ramp, basically where it's been hit by the cases.

Skylerbone
November 29, 2012, 12:28 PM
For those of you with 1911s having several thousand rounds, pull the barrels and inspect the chamber at 12 'clock. One material being harder than another does not mean the softer cannot damage the harder. Don't buy it? Sharpen a brass drift punch, put the frame in a vise, place the point on the feed ramp and give the punch a good whack with a dead blow hammer. I don't really advise this and I'd bet no one will rush out to try it.

To the OP, if you're going to shoot that pistol I'd recommend cast bullets and I'd recommend inspecting all brass before loading it. .45ACP brass runs short and it sure don't get longer with shooting so trimming damaged case mouths is asking for trouble; throw them out.

Bovice
November 29, 2012, 12:55 PM
I'll second what skylarbone says. The damage is going to come from stress concentrations, I.e. the edge of the jhp bullet nose. Stress is force/area. If you exceed the yield stress limit, you get deformation.

holdencm9
November 29, 2012, 01:02 PM
I agree that a softer material can damage a harder material with enough cycles and concentration of stress, but it sounded at first like he was talking a few hundred rounds, not a few thousand. On second-read, it doesn't really indicate either way.

OP, how many rounds are we talking?

RustHunter87
November 29, 2012, 01:11 PM
I would not buy that ^ ever dent a hammer?
If brass dents steel its some poor steel, and were not talkin about a Sharped Punch but a relative soft and rounded bullet nose with a glancing blow at that, if the stuff the bullets were made out of was that hard you would have not riffling left

Skylerbone
November 29, 2012, 01:47 PM
RH, we're talking about jagged edges and often crimped serrations, both copper and brass getting a running start on the feed ramp. On rifling, a good guesstimate on barrel life shooting jacketed bullets is around 50,000. Not bad until compared with 200,000 for those shooting lead. Regardless of which you shoot, have a look at the chambers of your well used auto loaders.

There is also a big difference between hard and tough. Carbide steel is hard, ever wonder why they don't make firearms with it?

Another possibility I neglected to mention during the bullet debate, would be the magazine follower- depending on the magazines used.

beatledog7
November 29, 2012, 02:51 PM
Every 8th grader knows that relative hardness is defined by which thing can scratch the other. Unless copper is harder than steel, how can it be scratching the feed ramp?

Skylerbone
November 29, 2012, 04:13 PM
Can you tell me how saw blades and drill bits can wear out when cutting wood? Any 8th graders explain why I still sharpen my knives after cleaning game? Guessing you haven't taken the Pepsi Challenge with that drift punch yet, perhaps you think your frame is made of poor steel?

rcmodel
November 29, 2012, 04:19 PM
It is a known problem in early alloy-frame guns such as the old Colt LW Commander after JHP ammo came along in the 1960's.

Never seen it or heard of it happening on a steel frame 1911, which your gun is one version of.
Even after many thousands of rounds.

You sure it isn't just brass scuffing stuck to the feed ramp?

Try cleaning it off with copper solvent and see what it looks like then.

rc

Certaindeaf
November 29, 2012, 06:28 PM
It's probably ganks of lead smooshed on there.

brickeyee
November 29, 2012, 06:32 PM
Steel mag followers have been known to start damaging feed ramps.

Bovice
November 30, 2012, 11:30 AM
You might not dent a hammer, but find me one that's hit 500 nails and tell me there aren't any scuffs. We're talking about forceful impact, not rubbing to compare surface hardness. Those are very different things.

If I am thinking of the right gun, he's referring to an old mexican copy of the 1911. Old enough to have been around before JHPs.

1911Tuner
November 30, 2012, 12:28 PM
The Ballester Molina was manufactured in Argentina by Hispano Argentina Fábrica de Automotores between 1938 and 1953 as a less expensive alternative to the Colt, and they were issued along with the Modelo 1927...aka Argentine Colt aka Sistema.

They were very good pistols, but it's unlikely that any of the frames were heat-treated at all, nor were the slides prior to 1946, if even that early. Copied more closely from the Spanish Star than the 1911, it shared with the 1911 the barrel, barrel bushing, recoil spring, and magazine.

You might not dent a hammer, but find me one that's hit 500 nails and tell me there aren't any scuffs. We're talking about forceful impact, not rubbing to compare surface hardness.

The bullet to feed ramp impact isn't a dead-on 90 degree impact, either. The bullet nose impacts at an angle and glances upward...so there's likely more rubbing than beating.

Without being able to examine the gun, I'd venture a guess that the forward edge of a magazine follower has done the damage...and if the proper 7-round magazine had been used...it couldn't have hit the feed ramp. I've owned and extensively fired over a dozen Colt LW Commanders with both hollowpoint and hardball, and have never had frame damage because I've always used the proper magazines.

Best WAG...somebody used a McCormick Shooting Star or Powermag in the gun.

ku4hx
November 30, 2012, 01:26 PM
Wow! If I had a gun whose feed ramp was so soft a bullet properly hitting it truly caused damaged, I'd destroy it. Any gun with steel that soft and delicate is not safe to shoot.

beatledog7
November 30, 2012, 01:40 PM
Can you tell me how saw blades and drill bits can wear out when cutting wood? Any 8th graders explain why I still sharpen my knives after cleaning game? Guessing you haven't taken the Pepsi Challenge with that drift punch yet, perhaps you think your frame is made of poor steel?

Edges get dulled from use. I was talking purely about hardness, not toughness. Deer flesh cannot scratch your blade. Wood cannot scratch a drill bit.

Skylerbone
November 30, 2012, 02:19 PM
Edges get dulled from use.

Can't happen. Flesh, skin, hair, wood, all soft compared to cutting instruments, couldn't possibly remove metal and that's what has to happen if it's getting dull...which is harder, the knife or the stones it's sharpened with?

There's no problem shooting the pistol but again consider the ammo and magazine used to do so. They ain't exactly mass producing spare parts for 'em.

1911Tuner
November 30, 2012, 02:37 PM
Can't happen. Flesh, skin, hair, wood, all soft compared to cutting instruments, couldn't possibly remove metal and that's what has to happen if it's getting dull.

Yet, they do get dulled with use. Otherwise, there would be no need for sharpening stones.

Now then, back to the Ballester Molina's feed ramp...

Texan Scott
November 30, 2012, 03:23 PM
Tuner, did I understand you correctly? Are you of the opinion that McComicks mags do bad things to 1911 feed ramps over time?

(not arguing- genuinely don't know) :confused:

1911Tuner
November 30, 2012, 04:29 PM
Tuner, did I understand you correctly? Are you of the opinion that McComicks mags do bad things to 1911 feed ramps over time?

Yes, and it's not an opinion. It's been observed by several people besides me. The last round drags the follower forward and down and the front edge hits the feed ramp. The reason that 7-round magazines don't move forward and tip is due to the rear leg of the follower being long enough for three spring coils to stabilize it. One in the top corner...one about mid-way...and another one near the bottom. The CMC/Devel follower only has two...one in the corner and one in the middle.

Note that they don't damage modern steel frames. Only aluminum alloy.

Older, soft steel frames...a possibility.

Texan Scott
November 30, 2012, 04:36 PM
Good to know... and a sound mechanical explanation for the problem as well, thank you. Scraping aluminum with steel = noticable abrasion... good thing I've been eyeballing a steel frame, then. Thanks!

Fishslayer
November 30, 2012, 04:37 PM
Best WAG...somebody used a McCormick Shooting Star or Powermag in the gun.

Not just 1911s. Ruger P90 mags with Devel followers are notorious for gouging up the magwell.:fire: I replace the guts in mine with WC follower & spring.

Skirted followers for 1911s. Why do they even make anything else?:confused:

1911Tuner
November 30, 2012, 05:51 PM
Skirted followers for 1911s. Why do they even make anything else?

Repeat:

The standard 7-round magazine doesn't hit the feed ramp.

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