.243 Against 1/4 Steel Plate


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winter1857
November 28, 2012, 06:17 PM
I went to the range today to mess around with my .375 Model 94 and my Interarms .243. I took along my 1/4 steel buffalo target that I use for rimfire shooting. With the rimfires I shoot away and at the end of the day hit the buffalo with some white spray paint and it's as good as new.

Not so with a 100 grain Remington Core Lokt PSP at 100 yards! Shooting from the bipod on the bench it put a nice hole clean through that measures about .421 inches. It appears that the jacket just peeled off around the hole and the rest of the bullet kept heading downrange...... I went back to shooting paper plates after that first shot.

I tried to take a decent photo of the hole with the jacket embedded around it but that's beyond the capabilities of my camera.

http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj537/Ragman2012/HoleyBuffalo1.jpg

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3twelves
November 28, 2012, 06:25 PM
How long is your range? Willing to bet it will go through at 200 also. My beast goes through 1/2" steel at 200 yards with SP ammo. :)

xfyrfiter
November 28, 2012, 06:27 PM
You need at least AR 500 steel at 1/2" thick at 100yds to withstand a 100 gr pill at 3000fps +. It'll just go right on through anything less.

3twelves
November 28, 2012, 06:28 PM
You need at least AR 500 steel at 1/2" thick at 100yds to withstand a 100 gr pill at 3000fps +. It'll just go right on through anything less.
false

allaroundhunter
November 28, 2012, 06:40 PM
You need at least AR 500 steel at 1/2" thick at 100yds to withstand a 100 gr pill at 3000fps +. It'll just go right on through anything less.

3/8" AR500 is plenty....

56hawk
November 28, 2012, 06:58 PM
Here is a 3/8" AR500 plate I shot with my 243 at 25 yards. It was a 55 grain ballistic tip at 3724 fps.:

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=168486&d=1342667961

Andrew Wyatt
November 28, 2012, 07:51 PM
.243 and .270 will go through 3/8" ar 500.

Birdhunter1
November 28, 2012, 08:00 PM
1/4" mild steel will be penetrated by a bullet at over 2000 fps. Done it, experimented with it, scientifically unproven but given what I've tried it with it has seemed 2000 fps regardless of caliber will penetrate 1/4 mild steel.

allaroundhunter
November 28, 2012, 08:34 PM
.243 and .270 will go through 3/8" ar 500.

....look one post above yours...

3twelves
November 28, 2012, 08:49 PM
lol

Gordon
November 28, 2012, 08:58 PM
http://www.barnesbullets.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/12/Barnes-Customer-Update-Banded-Solids-2012-2.pdf

I'm sure gladI laid in a big supply of .243 Banded solids for this
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i203/gordonhulme/002-17.jpg
and this:
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i203/gordonhulme/074-1.jpg

As the load I brew go 3300fps from a 24" barrel, at 200 yards it holes a 3/4" T1 plate. This would be a useful load in a Red Dawn scenario I believe and I should have laid in .264 and .270 ones too !

3twelves
November 28, 2012, 09:23 PM
http://www.barnesbullets.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/12/Barnes-Customer-Update-Banded-Solids-2012-2.pdf

I'm sure gladI laid in a big supply of .243 Banded solids for this
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i203/gordonhulme/002-17.jpg
and this:
[IMG]http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i203/gordonhulme/074-1.jpg[/IG]

As the load I brew go 3300fps from a 24" barrel, at 200 yards it holes a 3/4" T1 plate. This would be a useful load in a Red Dawn scenario I believe and I should have laid in .264 and .270 ones too !


3/4"? That's pretty good, wasnt aware of the banded solids. Did some tests on 1/2" at 100 yards with TSX .308 168g and .338LM 280g they didn't go through.

Cosmoline
November 28, 2012, 10:02 PM
IIRC, the banded solids are for very specific hunting scenarios. They're not AP or necessarily for steel punching. I believe they would be no more effective than any ordinary projectile. Perhaps less so, and more given to simply exploding against the harder metal. They're supposed to stay intact through bone and soft tissue, not punch through steel. But I'd be curious about the results. I do suspect the BATFE is once again smoking substances banned by the DEA.

Gordon
November 28, 2012, 10:23 PM
Lathe turned bronze, as the banded Barnes ones are (were), in spitzer shapes do strange thing to armor plate at very high velocity. :evil:

Ratshooter
November 28, 2012, 10:34 PM
I used to grab a few of the tie plates from the railroad when they would change out the wood ties. We would shoot them at 100 yards with our deer rifles, 30-06 for me and 270 for my buddy, both loaded with 150gr bullets. I was using remington coreloks and he nosler partions and both would go through the plates. Both holes looked the same too. And no jackets left behind.

A 223 FMJ fired from a mini-14 made a deep crater but never made it all the way through. But it was way better than that 243 varmint bullet in the other post at 4 times the range.

Jeff H
November 28, 2012, 10:49 PM
1/4" mild steel will be penetrated by a bullet at over 2000 fps. Done it, experimented with it, scientifically unproven but given what I've tried it with it has seemed 2000 fps regardless of caliber will penetrate 1/4 mild steel.

That sounds about right. I have several 1/4 and 5/16" A36 plates I use for pistol practice and 38spec and 45acp are harmless, 9mm does small dents with jacketed ammo and 357mag would put a serious dent, but I won't shoot magnums at any mild steel that I want to keep anymore.

27hand
November 28, 2012, 11:23 PM
I've done some experimental penetration testing of 1/2" mild steel with a variety of pistol and rifle rounds.

I tried 3 pistol rounds. A 9mm out of a 3 1/2" Kahr.// A 180 gr .40 S&W--Glock 23. ///Ruger Redhawk .44 mag. 240 gr .

Rifles were. 170 gr flat nosed 30-30 Marlin 336 // 150 gr Nosler ballistic tip over 57.5 gr IMR 4350-- Rem 760 30.06 pump // 165 gr Wolf gold --.300 Win Mag Savage. // .223 Wolf -- Bushmaster // 7.62X39 (2) Chinese SKS and Chinese AK // 7.62X51 (2) Ishapore 2A1 and Spanish FR-8

Range was about 12 yds from behind steel barrier with minimal exposure and target plate was unsecured against a berm. No spatter came back and hit the barrier steel that I am aware of.


3twelves. Due to limited IT knowledge Ha. Top to bottom is:

Chinese SKS with Wolf 7.62X39
Bushmaster AR Wolf .223 55gr
Kahr P9 Covert 9mm Gold Dot
Remington 760 Pump 30.06 150gr Nosler Ballistic tip over 57.5 gr IMR 4350
Marlin 336 170gr Speer flatnose over 34.5 gr IMR 4350
Glock 23 180gr
Norinco AK Wolf 7.62X39
Ruger Redhawk 7 1/2" 240 gr Speer magnum soft point over 24.7gr W296
Savage .300 WinMag Wolf Gold 165gr----------only complete penetration.
Spanish FR-8 Indian 7.62X51 (1975)
Ishapore 2A1 Indian 7.62X51 (1975 ammo) 147 gr IIRC This was left bottom if you followed it down.

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l103/poofy27/Targets%20and%20steel%20pics/100_0394.jpg

I would be hard pressed to believe a .243 would pass through Abrasion Resistant 500 plate 3/8" thick but I suppose makeup of bullet would determine that. I would like to see pics of that. T1 and A36 are relatively mild IIRC. AR400 doesn't stand up well to rifle fire but is fine for handgun. Mild steel is OK for most non magnum handgun rounds but .357 .41 and .44 will ding mild pretty easily.

3twelves
November 29, 2012, 12:25 AM
^ can you label that pic to what is what?


Like this

This is with 1/2" mild steel also but at longer distance.



http://105.imagebam.com/download/sBkSy044OSZNOmdeTeQIKQ/22307/223061412/back.jpg

squarepants33889
November 29, 2012, 12:44 AM
I was amazed to learn, on a quiet day at the range, that my .204 ruger blows .35" holes in 1/4 mild steel plate. Out to about 250 yards. After that it burns in a hole that looks like it was drilled by a bit. Very impressive

chaser_2332
November 29, 2012, 12:51 AM
mild steel is not to be shot at. if u want to bang steel invest in some ar500 targets, its well worth the money and alot safer.

sscoyote
November 29, 2012, 06:31 AM
I use cinder block molds available (usually free) at the local brickyard when they get out of spec. I have only rarely seen that stuff break upon impact with anything 30 cal. and smaller.

Swampman
November 29, 2012, 07:07 AM
I went to the range today to mess around with my .375 Model 94 and my Interarms .243. I took along my 1/4 steel buffalo target that I use for rimfire shooting. With the rimfires I shoot away and at the end of the day hit the buffalo with some white spray paint and it's as good as new.

Not so with a 100 grain Remington Core Lokt PSP at 100 yards! Shooting from the bipod on the bench it put a nice hole clean through that measures about .421 inches. It appears that the jacket just peeled off around the hole and the rest of the bullet kept heading downrange...... I went back to shooting paper plates after that first shot.

I tried to take a decent photo of the hole with the jacket embedded around it but that's beyond the capabilities of my camera.

And what were you were expecting from a target designed for .22 rimfire...?

Half inch AR500 doesn't do well against 50 cal API either.

Match your load to your target.

Or buy a LOT of new targets!

Also, mind what chaser_2332 said.
It's a lot harder to buy new eyeballs than new targets.

Mencius
November 29, 2012, 10:07 AM
I have angled 1/4" mild steel roughly 30 to 40 degrees from the ground and a 308 FMJ did not penetrate at 25 yards. *shrug*

allaroundhunter
November 29, 2012, 11:27 AM
I have angled 1/4" mild steel roughly 30 to 40 degrees from the ground and a 308 FMJ did not penetrate at 25 yards. *shrug*

But it did probably dent it. A target that has a clean hole through it is safer than one that has a dent.....

3twelves
November 29, 2012, 11:40 AM
I have angled 1/4" mild steel roughly 30 to 40 degrees from the ground and a 308 FMJ did not penetrate at 25 yards. *shrug*
Must be the angle, I had 7.62x51 FMJ go though 3/8" at 50 (16") and 100 yards (22").


http://105.imagebam.com/download/jWTYuAStTcXRfsPBJ1OCQg/22317/223167804/7.62.jpg

BoilerUP
November 29, 2012, 12:18 PM
High velocity KILLS steel...there's a reason tactical matches often have a restriction of <3000fps.

I had a family "friend" blast one of my AR500 3/8" steel at <50yd with an M4gery and XM193. It left very small, shallow craters in the steel but otherwise didn't phase it.

That plate now only gets shot at 300yd or further distance, just to be safe.

Andrew Wyatt
November 29, 2012, 12:38 PM
....look one post above yours...

55 grain .243 has a very low sectional density. What kills steel plates is sectional density and velocity.

Good try, though.

allaroundhunter
November 29, 2012, 01:23 PM
.55 grain .243 has a very low sectional density. What kills steel plates is sectional density and velocity.

Good try, though.

You said:

.243 and .270 will go through 3/8" ar 500.


When the post above you clearly showed that a .243 was stopped by the same AR500 grade steel that you claimed would not stop it.

How is that a "good try"? You were proven wrong, and there is photographic evidence directly above your post to show that.

Will other .243 and .270 rounds go through AR500? Maybe, at some distances.....but making a blanket statement like you did will leave you proven wrong 99% of the time.... This not being part of that other 1%.

Andrew Wyatt
November 29, 2012, 03:17 PM
There's a difference between what i said, which is ".243 and .270 will go through 3/8" ar 500"

and what you want me to have said, which is: "there is no circumstance where a .243 diameter projectile will fail to penetrate 3/8" ar-500 plate."

Swampman
November 29, 2012, 03:58 PM
I use cinder block molds available (usually free) at the local brickyard when they get out of spec. I have only rarely seen that stuff break upon impact with anything 30 cal. and smaller

I'm unfamiliar with this type mold, do you know what they're made of?
How thick are they?

56hawk
November 29, 2012, 04:41 PM
There's a difference between what i said, which is ".243 and .270 will go through 3/8" ar 500"

and what you want me to have said, which is: "there is no circumstance where a .243 diameter projectile will fail to penetrate 3/8" ar-500 plate."

Would you mind sharing what the circumstances were when you shot through 3/8" AR-500 plate?

27hand
November 29, 2012, 06:18 PM
There always seems to be differing schools of thought about shooting steel whether it's mild or varying degrees of hardness up to armor plate.

I look at it as personal risk assessment and it is up to each individual to determine how much risk they are willing to take.

I agree that steel that doesn't crater or dimple is the safest way to go. Is it the ONLY way to do it? My opinion is no but an opinion is like an anal aperture, everyone has one. I shoot handguns at mild steel as close as 7 yds.


Factors in shooting steel safely are hardness of steel, velocity and makeup of bullet, distance to target. I have made steel targets of mild steel and have had numerous thousands of rounds fired at them with no adverse effects (injury wise).

Here are a few. The 3 rectangular plates were suspended from a swing. The spring plates were shot at with a 9mm pistol cal carbine. When we realized the 2" pipe was getting dinged pretty much, we stopped the use of these carbines and magnum caliber handguns. The supports were replaced and the target faces were angled downward. I later got some 8" round 3/8" AR500 replacement plates as well. The 2 colt speed plates were purchased from MGM targets. the material is 3/8" AR500 and they reset automatically.

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l103/poofy27/Targets%20and%20steel%20pics/100_0325-1.jpg

On another forum, the question of steel core Chinese ammo came up so I tested some of what I had ( the question was steel core ammo being AP). Left to right (bottom first) is Chinese steel core as is the one above it. Top left is German plastic core. Then Golden Tiger, another German plastic core, a Wolf. The top right made the nicest petal design. It was Egyptian lead core. This angle iron was also 1/2" thick.

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l103/poofy27/Targets%20and%20steel%20pics/010-1.jpg

Here is a club target I had the opportunity to shoot with a 8 3/8" bbl S&W500 and a Corbon round (?gr). The bullet actually stuck in the 3/8" thick plate.

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l103/poofy27/Targets%20and%20steel%20pics/003-1-1.jpg

This was a piece of 3/8" stainless steel with a .44 mag (same load as above) and I think a 180 gr .40

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l103/poofy27/Targets%20and%20steel%20pics/100_0391-1.jpg

Gordon
November 29, 2012, 08:50 PM
Bronze pointy projos at Mach 3 and above are murder on T-1 . I don't have any of that 500 or newer stuff. The sectional density lengthens the range they still penetrate. The Barnes 75 grain Banded spitzer at 3300 fps muzzle velocity goes thru 3/4" T-1 at 200 yards as does old type .50 BMG armor piercing. The 30-06 AP out of an M-1 puts a good crater in it but no hole, that is all I have tried. I bought the .243 Banded solids for a specific purpose, like the UN small arms treaty enforced in the US. :(

27hand
November 29, 2012, 09:34 PM
Gordon, T1 steel is only in the mid 300's of Brinnel hardness.

I tried copying steel info from the Action Target website.

http://www.actiontarget.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/pt_Steel_Target_Resource_Guide.pdf

Andrew Wyatt
November 30, 2012, 05:34 PM
Would you mind sharing what the circumstances were when you shot through 3/8" AR-500 plate?


the 75 and 90 grain .243 and the 130 and 150 grain in the .270 are the ones that are most likely to go through, provided its not a reduced loading.

chaser_2332
November 30, 2012, 10:45 PM
if ur shooting a 243 and 270 through a ar500 plate, then you need to smack your dealer passing off steel as ar500 that clearly isnt

27hand
December 1, 2012, 08:25 PM
Andrew, I have to agree with the posters about the penetration of those bullets through 3/8" AR500.

I think that plate was not AR500. I don't doubt the penetration. I doubt it was actually AR500.

But then again , I live to be wrong on the internet. It's like a job.

I don't have a .243 or 270 or I would try it.

I bought these 8" rounds from a guy on this board ( Mcosman ). They are 3/8" AR500 & were $25 ea. but I never tried shooting rifles at them.

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l103/poofy27/Targets%20and%20steel%20pics/100_0131.jpg

Landis45
December 2, 2012, 03:59 AM
We have 10 "real" 3/8" AR 500 plates so we decided to use one for testing to see just what kind of abuse they would actually take, shot everything from 300 winmag, .243, .260, .223 green tips and several other calibers ... even racked off a couple 12 ga slugs just for the hell of it. All from 30 yds away... Nothing penetrated, but the .223 did leave slight indentations but no major damage.

sscoyote
December 2, 2012, 09:27 AM
Sorry on the cinder block mold ? Just got back here. Don't know what kinda' steel it is--just know it's usually free when they trash it at brickyards that use it--

6.5 WSM/140 A-Max at 300 yds.--

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t49/sscoyote1/HPIM0140.jpg

rodinal220
December 2, 2012, 12:07 PM
A lot of your cheaper steel targets made for RF are made out of A36 structural steel.Ok for RF use over .125"(.125 gets beaten up pretty good at close range).People are amazed that 5.56 M193 will burn a hole right thru 1/4" A36 out to 100 yards(farthest Ive shot it).makes that nice hole with a copper grommet around it.

Picher
December 2, 2012, 12:43 PM
High velocity isn't the only reason that bullets penetrate steel. The major factor is that lead-core jacketed bullets function much like a bazooka or RPG with their "shaped charges".

They are really "burning" their way through. The lead is contained by the jacket and gets heated instantaneously, by compression, into a liquid "torch" that melts the steel. That's why such bullet holes have crowns at both entrance and exit.

I've hit the same 3/8" steel targets at over 200 yards with Barnes TSX and Hornady GMX .243 Win and .270 Win bullets and neither would go through, but some stay trapped in the cratered steel. Conversely, lead-core bullets driven at the same velocity bore through easily.

Gordon
December 2, 2012, 12:46 PM
Hey Steve that is the coolest looking XP I've ever seen and it sounds like a great cartridge!!!!!!

juk
December 2, 2012, 01:53 PM
I found out that steel core light ball 7.62x54R won't penetrate a square tube metal fence post at 300 yards. It burns a hole in the front and dents the heck out of the back. And it makes the coolest ringing sound I've ever heard. lol. Same results all 3 times I hit that post.

56hawk
December 2, 2012, 02:43 PM
All from 30 yds away... Nothing penetrated, but the .223 did leave slight indentations but no major damage.

You need to get a bigger gun. :D Below are pictures of AR500 plates I shot with a 458 Lott 400 grain lead flat point at 2499 fps. Top picture is a 3/8" plate and the bottom is a 1/2" plate.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=168488&d=1342670023

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=170825&d=1346385519

Landis45
December 2, 2012, 05:09 PM
Good Gawwwwd Son!!

27hand
December 2, 2012, 11:17 PM
56,

Cool pics.

It was pointed out to me on another board that AR500 penetrations do not have the expanded "petals" on either side of the plate as mild steel does.

I'm not sure at what point of steel hardness this occurs. AR400 or harder? Not sure.

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