Charter Arms...school me.


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Kymasabe
November 28, 2012, 08:32 PM
I just found some old Charter Arms Undercover .38's at a local shop, one from 1980, one from 1978, and an even older 3" barrelled one from 1969.
Finished seemed good on all of them and lock-up on the '78 was rock solid. Trigger doesn't feel to bad. All but one had the small narrow wooden grips, the '80 has a three finger combat grip, looks like made by Pachmyr.

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Cocked & Locked
November 29, 2012, 12:17 AM
I've had three of them...no problems here. The one I don't have was chambered for the 9mm Federal cartridge. I wish I still had that one but the ammo is really expensive when/if you find it. :scrutiny:

http://pic90.picturetrail.com/VOL2169/3082611/6263277/402811502.jpg

http://pic90.picturetrail.com/VOL2169/3082611/6263277/402892409.jpg

Kymasabe
November 29, 2012, 01:00 AM
I see you have the DAO hammer on that Undercover. Did you install it yourself or have a 'smith do it? I saw a pic of your gun before and liked it, just ordered the DAO hammer so I could do the same.

lowercase
November 29, 2012, 04:25 AM
I have two of the old Undercover .38s that i picked up for decent prices at local shops.

Both were apparently "sock drawer guns" that never saw hard service. Finish, lockup, and triggers on both are good. They're good little shooters.

How are the prices on those guns? If cheap, I'd be tempted to just scoop up all three.

Here's a pic of my undercovers. One dates from the late 60s, and the other one is from the 70s.

http://imageshack.us/a/img811/2100/2charters.jpg

Here's a better pic:

http://imageshack.us/a/img515/3422/undercoverb.jpg

Cocked & Locked
November 29, 2012, 09:10 AM
I see you have the DAO hammer on that Undercover. Did you install it yourself or have a 'smith do it? I saw a pic of your gun before and liked it, just ordered the DAO hammer so I could do the same.

I installed the hammer myself. No instructions for doing so came with the hammer. It is very easy though and took about 15 minutes total time.

You can look at a schematic of the gun and it will be easy. There is nothing complicated to take apart.

Remove the grip panels and take the coil spring tension off the hammer by cocking it then pinning it and the pivot ball rod in place with a small finishing nail. There is a hole in the rod that allows that. Remove the hammer screw in the frame and simply pull the hammer out the top of the gun...put new hammer in...replace screw...and reposition the spring and pivot ball...remove small nail.

http://pic90.picturetrail.com/VOL2169/3082611/6263277/403777839.jpg

http://pic90.picturetrail.com/VOL2169/3082611/6263277/403777757.jpg

If you have any problems with it PM me.

bikerdoc
November 29, 2012, 09:26 AM
The old ones are decent guns. The wife carries a 71 4 inch with pachmeyer grips.

the Black Spot
November 29, 2012, 11:56 AM
Make sure the cylinder throats line up square with barrel.

MedWheeler
November 29, 2012, 12:01 PM
I have two. One is from 1987, and I purchased it new that year the day I was sworn in as a LEO. It's tight, smooth, and has a rare (for that era) anodized-aluminum barrel/ejector shroud. The barrel is also a full 2 inches, as opposed to the more common 1.87 inch barrels on snub revolvers. It has a somewhat thicker, checkered wood stock.

The second dates from 1966, and was my dad's. I don't know when he got it, but he didn't get it new. He also carried it as a LEO in the 1980's, but we weren't in contact back then, and I didn't really know him. We re-connected in the early 2000's, and the gun became mine in 2010 upon his death. It's also a slick shooter, but the smooth wood grip is a little small for my hands.

The revolvers that hurt the Charter Arms name the most were among those made and sold after about 1990, until about 2002. During that time frame, the company had changed hands and names; the "worst years" seem to be when they operated under the names "Charco" and "Charter 2000."
The original company is back at the helm and has come a long way to bring back to the market a quality product that remains affordable.

charlie fox
November 29, 2012, 01:47 PM
I've owned both the .38 and .44, both made in the early 80's. I found them to be very servicable and easy to carry. I would like to find one from the mid-late 70's without the shroud.

Kymasabe
November 29, 2012, 06:20 PM
Well, I bought the 1978 Undercover .38 with the small wooden grips, and I bought the 1980 Undercover .38 with the big combat grip. The 1969 gun with the three inch barrel is still sitting at the gun shop because...well, basically, I ran out of money. Got the guns for $200 each out the door.
I hope I didn't pay too much. Pics coming soon.

rcmodel
November 29, 2012, 06:32 PM
I bought two of them new in 1968 - 69 or thereabouts.

Both misfired badly in DA, and there seemed to be no cure for it.
The first one shot loose in no time, and I got rid of the second one before shooting it enough for the same thing to happen to it.

Never again, as long as they still sell great old S&W Chiefs Specials that always work and will last longer then I will for about the same money!

rc

Elkins45
November 29, 2012, 07:11 PM
My wife had one briefly. It was a giant pile of fail. It was about as reliable as an RG.

silicosys4
November 29, 2012, 07:41 PM
I have a bulldog pug that I overpaid for, and I paid all of $125. I will never buy another revolver that has a life expectancy. Mine has about reached its expiration date if I go by the rattles and play it has developed in the 2 years that I've owned it, and the roughly 200 standard pressure rounds I've put through it.
This was an older model with the alloy frame. I do agree with the general sentiment, if you get one new, and its not a lemon, and you only plan on shooting it occasionally, with standard pressure ammo, then it should be just fine.

Russ Jackson
November 29, 2012, 07:48 PM
David Berkowitz was partial to the 44 bulldog...Russ

Cocked & Locked
November 29, 2012, 08:14 PM
This was an older model with the alloy frame. I do agree with the general sentiment, if you get one new, and its not a lemon, and you only plan on shooting it occasionally, with standard pressure ammo, then it should be just fine.

I'm guessing you are referring to the combo alloy grip frame/trigger guard that CA's have? Or are you talking about the ones with aluminum sleeved steel barrels?

Thanks

lowercase
November 30, 2012, 02:55 AM
David Berkowitz was partial to the 44 bulldog...Russ

Mark David Chapman killed John Lennon with a Charter Undercover .38 special.

Here's a pic of his gun:
http://imageshack.us/a/img836/8103/markdavidchapman.jpg

Mine look the same if I put Pachmayr grips on them.
http://imageshack.us/a/img547/4782/revolver2.jpg

lowercase
November 30, 2012, 03:04 AM
Well, I bought the 1978 Undercover .38 with the small wooden grips, and I bought the 1980 Undercover .38 with the big combat grip. The 1969 gun with the three inch barrel is still sitting at the gun shop because...well, basically, I ran out of money. Got the guns for $200 each out the door.
I hope I didn't pay too much. Pics coming soon.

Congrats! I paid 200 bucks apiece for mine, too.

As far as the 3-inch model, you just need to practice the fine art of "layaway".

I used to pass on guns i would otherwise buy because of budget constraints, i.e., I had already spent my gun budget money for the month. After I started putting them on layaway, nothing got away from me. :D

silicosys4
November 30, 2012, 06:53 PM
C&L,
My mistake, it is a steel framed gun with allow barrel sleeve, grip frame, and trigger guard.

Cocked & Locked
November 30, 2012, 07:24 PM
10-4 Thanks for that info.

I've been fortunate with the three I have I guess. I convinced my brother they were great. He bought one that looks mint but has had some issues with it...hmmmmm:scrutiny:

lobo9er
November 30, 2012, 08:04 PM
the old ones look so much better than the new stuff. I had Bad luck story with a charter 2000 357 mag pug. I agree with RC. just my 2 cents

splithoof
November 30, 2012, 11:16 PM
In a few words: gerumpel, basura, rebut, detrito, haraburdi. All are translated into Charco: JUNK!

Kymasabe
November 30, 2012, 11:19 PM
Yup, I've heard the old Charter Arms stuff was good, but to stay away from the Charco and Charter 2000 guns. Not sure if it's true, but I've heard that the old Charter Arms family that sold the company bought it back and is building guns like they used to again. The new stuff is supposed to be pretty good.
That being said, I'm still a sucker for the old guns.

Geezer Glide
December 1, 2012, 02:40 PM
I have an old Under Cover .38 and a Bulldog .44, both are the early Bridgeport, CT models. They are a lot better that some of the stuff that the "brand name" manufacturers are putting out these days.

rjsixgun
December 1, 2012, 02:51 PM
So what about the new ones? How are they made? All steel, combo of steel and aluminum if so what parts are what????

kerreckt
December 1, 2012, 03:17 PM
Bridgeport and Stratford Conn. guns are well made. Charco and the others are junk. Don't know about the real new stuff. I have a Stratford Buuldog Pug .44 and it is a good quality gun.

Kymasabe
December 1, 2012, 05:52 PM
Was at a small gun show today. Had brand new all blue Undercover .38's for $319. Was tempted to add a new Charter Arms to the others.

lowercase
December 1, 2012, 11:14 PM
All this talk about Charters made me have to go grab another one. :D

Actually, I stumbled across it at my LGS for a good price and couldn't pass it up.

It's a "Police Bulldog" 4" chambered for .38 special, and was made in the Stratford factory.

Beautiful condition, and appears to have barely ever been fired. It will fit in to my collection nicely.

http://imageshack.us/a/img231/6051/pc010875b.jpg

Owen Sparks
December 1, 2012, 11:28 PM
They are meant to be carried a lot and shot a little. I have had half a dozen .44 Bulldogs and wore my first one out. If you put a few boxes a year through one it will hold up just fine. They are reliable. I carry one often in the Summer and would bet my life on it. Just don't expect it to hold up to thousands of rounds.

Nasty
December 2, 2012, 08:14 AM
The new ones are fine...and there is nothing lacking in the stainless models. I sometimes carry a 44 Pug and my wife recently got a Lavender Lady 38 Special.

These were never built to be daily range or target work firearms...they were designed to be carried often.

They are reliable...simple...and go bang when they are supposed to.

We have other firearms for shooting mass quantities of lead.

I have a S&W 696 and she has a S&W 65 Ladysmith...they get shot a lot.




oh...yes, we have many others as well, just referencing the S&Ws due to caliber analogy.

JohnnyOrygun
December 2, 2012, 08:43 AM
I have a charter arms undercover that I got when my Mom passed away. Dad had bought it used for her from an estate auction, good little gun. But for some reason it seems that the cylinder release needs adjusted, doesn't quite push ejector rod out all of the way, have to pull it a very little bit to get the cylinder out. Any ideas on adjusting it to work properly? It's a nice little gun, was my Mom's purse and nightstand gun. Not shot a lot, but not taken care of very well either, has some surface issues from where my Mom would hold it and then not wipe it down. Its not my favorite gun, but it has so much sentimental value, never sell it. I also have the S&W model 60 I bought for my Dad for Fathers day one year, its SS and a really nice gun. Again inherited it when Dad passed away. Again, too much sentimental value to ever get rid of it and it has no lock on it.

Kymasabe
December 2, 2012, 10:10 AM
Well, I wasn't planning on carrying the Undercover .38, was going to keep them both in the house. I have a little Kel-Tec P32 that I keep in my work van. Is small, discreet, disappears in a pocket, and is 7 rounds. Long story short, yesterday I had a situation where I felt the need to quietly unholster it and chamber a round...and it jammed !! So then I had to rack it and clear it and maintain situational awareness, the whole time thinking to myself "this wouldn't happen with my little .38". So, breaking down the Kel-Tec for a thorough cleaning and change in ammo, but I think another .38 purchae is in the works and is going to be my new truck gun.

always be closing
December 2, 2012, 08:12 PM
I just bought a 70's charter arms undercover .38 special yesterday. Produced in the second factory, Stratford, CT. According to what ive seen and specifically .32 magnum's postings, I think this will be a nice pistol.

I got to check out two of these at the pawn shop I was at, and both required the extractor plunger to be pulled towards teh front to swing the cylinder out, I dont know if this is by design or if adjustment is needed, maybe some of the guys here with more experience know?

Also, what about IWB holsters and speed loaders? S&W model 10 stuff work best?

Kymasabe
December 2, 2012, 08:43 PM
I have a S&W J-frame holster that my Charter Arms Undercover .38 fits in perfectly.

Blue Brick
December 2, 2012, 11:55 PM
Remove the grip panels and take the coil spring tension off the hammer by cocking it then pinning it and the pivot ball rod in place with a small finishing nail. There is a hole in the rod that allows that. Remove the hammer screw in the frame and simply pull the hammer out the top of the gun...put new hammer in...replace screw...and reposition the spring and pivot ball...remove small nail.

Sounds like a Ruger.

MedWheeler
December 3, 2012, 06:28 PM
A five-round speedloader for the S&W M60 and other J-frame five-shooters will fit the Charter Arms Undercover. I have one (one HKS loader; two Undercover revolvers.) Holsters also for the J-frame snub will be fine. Not the model 10; that's a bigger-frame gun with a six-round cylinder.

jolly roger
December 4, 2012, 02:51 PM
I had a bright nickel 44 Bulldog in 1981. Shoulda kept that since I have never seen another one ever. Solid gun

larryh1108
December 5, 2012, 08:46 PM
I also have an older model. Nice little gun. Solid, fun to shoot, accurate. Countless rounds thru it and still tight.
http://i342.photobucket.com/albums/o435/larryh1108/Charter%20Arms/CA38left1.jpg

Kaeto
December 6, 2012, 10:54 AM
I have the Undercover Southpaw and I love it! I bought it just over a year ago and have put several hundred rounds through it without a single problem. And that included fifty +P rounds in rapid succession. I just find the +P rounds to be too punishing to my hand due to the lightness of the gun.

http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/p565/kaeto3/DCP00454.jpg

Kymasabe
December 6, 2012, 09:20 PM
Sorry, lighting was the greatest but finally managed to take a few pics. I think I should try again during the daylight.
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i206/Kymasabe/CharterArms002.jpg[/IMG]
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i206/Kymasabe/CharterArms001.jpg[/IMG]

USAF_Vet
December 7, 2012, 02:42 AM
I've been looking at both the southpaw and the 9mm. I have to get them both side by side and see if I can swap cylinders. A 9mm southpaw revolver would be awesome. Then my wife could have the .38 cylinder and the right handed frame.

Anyone know if that would work?

Kaeto
December 7, 2012, 04:48 AM
Won't work due to the ejector shroud opening being on the wrong side.

lowercase
December 7, 2012, 05:54 PM
Kymasabe, those two Undercover snubbies look great.

Good score!

USAF_Vet
December 7, 2012, 09:41 PM
Won't work due to the ejector shroud opening being on the wrong side.
I know the cylinder swing arm wouldn't be able to be swapped. Just the cylinder itself. I'm not a revolver guy, only mildly curious, so I might not be following the terminology here.

Although, for some reason I'm really digging the OD/ Black tiger striped .38

Kaeto
December 7, 2012, 09:53 PM
A .38 barrel can't be used as .38 converts to 9.36 mm. And 9 mm is .35 inch so you'd have to swap the 9mm barrel and the slot in the barrel for the axis pin would be on the wrong side.

USAF_Vet
December 7, 2012, 10:20 PM
gotcha. well so much for that idea.

I'd like to get a wheel gun as a bug, but really don't want to stock another caliber. The 9mm was promising, but as a lefty, it's just not gonna cut it. I like single actions due to the fact that the loading port is on the right side. Makes them easier for a lefty.

Come on Charter, make a 9mm Southpaw in OD/ Black tiger stripes!

Confederate
December 8, 2012, 12:46 AM
Well, you got 'em for a good price, so that was good. I'd keep them around for defense and for situations where you need a small, light, cheap revolver. I certainly wouldn't shoot them much as the frames are subject to being battered, especially with +P ammo. I had a number of Charter Arms in the late 70s and early 80s, and many of them had problems binding. I loved the .44 Bulldog, but I had nothing but problems with all of them.

Back in the 70s, I saw some extremely cheap .38s that were clearly intended to be shot ONLY for defense...like a fire extinguisher. One pawnshop owner showed me one that had been fired with only six standard rounds with round-nose bullets. The forcing cone was slightly cracked at the six o'clock position and the chambers were slightly cracked in the rear. Nothing like that happened with the Charter Arms, but I did experience binding when double-action firing the gun.

Taurus revolvers were durable enough, but were very inaccurate. And Rossis were great for the price. Early on they had weird grip shapes, but I should have bought 5-6 of them. They were cheap, reliable, durable, and accurate.

I don't know how the modern Charter Arms are, but the design looks characteristically flimsy.

MedWheeler
December 8, 2012, 12:31 PM
USAF-Vet, I'm a lefty, too, and also own a Charter Arms Undercover. Bought it the day I was sworn in as a LEO in 1987. (I actually have two of them, having inherited my father's circa-1966 one in 2010.)
When I was in the LE academy, there were few LH-ed instructors around, and it was some time before someone came along who knew of a tactical-reload technique we southpaws could use. I got so used to revolvers, both service and snubs, that, were I to be handed a southpaw revolver today, I don't think I would be able to figure out what to do with it.


I kind of like the idea of having one in 9mm, too, simply because there is so much available these days in the way of performance ammunition in that caliber. But, I'll never get one just because I already have the two .38s, and my EDC is a 9mm pistol.

lobo9er
December 8, 2012, 01:33 PM
Just a brief update I was at a gun shop and a kid was carrying a older charter 38. he said he liked it and was always reliable he said if he was shooting alot though the cylinder screw would loosen like others have said but he wasn't really bothered by it and that as a carry gun obviously never shot a couple boxes while carrying - made a good point. He said he wouldn't shoot +p's through it and was the only thing that he saw as a set back. In short he liked his.

lowercase
December 8, 2012, 01:45 PM
Here's my daily carry.

It's a new-production Bulldog Pug. Easy to carry, especially with the small, wood grips (NOS Undercover grips). I carry at 4:00 in a OWB belt slide. Nice to have a big bore snubby. :)

http://imageshack.us/a/img43/7140/bulldogwoodgrips.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img194/8700/bulldog5q.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img838/3541/bulldog4.jpg

Hal
December 8, 2012, 04:06 PM
David Berkowitz was partial to the 44 bulldog...Russ
& it performed pretty poorly.
No doubt some blame could be placed on the ammunition - but - still a dismal performance.

Kaeto
December 8, 2012, 04:48 PM
Berkowitz was just a lousy shot.

Hal
December 8, 2012, 06:38 PM
12 people were shot at.
2 were a clean miss.
6 died in total out of the 10 that were hit.
2 were killed immeditatly

Nope - he was a decent engough shot - better than most according to the figures.
60% fatality says over half his shots were well placed.

The dismal part is that only 2 of the 10 people hit were what could be considered a OSS.

I'd say that's a pretty dismal showing for the .44Spl Bulldog.

Geezer Glide
December 8, 2012, 09:32 PM
In addition to my older Charter Arms revolvers, I also have a current Off Duty. I have had this one about three years. It weighs only 12 ounces and makes a wonderful pocket carry gun. I carry this one a lot and have fired a lot of practice rounds through it.

http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h174/horry_dresser/od1.jpg

larryh1108
December 8, 2012, 10:55 PM
I never realized that a OSS meant death. I thought it meant stopping the attack? I see a 60% mortality rate. Pretty effective if you ask me.

Hal
December 9, 2012, 08:23 AM
60% mortality is deceiving.
Sorry, my bad for putting it that way.
Yes. 60% did succumb to their wounds, but, it was some time after the initial attack.
My point is that while they suffered fatal gun shot wounds, they were not "stopped".
If you check the details of each shooting - which I did some ten years ago - it's a reasonable assumtion that, had it been a gunfight where the victims were armed and/or equipped to return fire, Berkowitz would have been in serious trouble.

The term "one shot stop" does not directly apply since there was no "threat" to stop.
However - had a threat existed, only two of the twelve died immediatly.

Feel free to sift through the tons of material out there. I did at one time and I'm 100% convinced the .44spl is not all that effective.
It can be, however, it's very questionable the Bulldog is up to the task of being the platform.
I didn't and still don't believe it is.

Kaeto
December 9, 2012, 10:00 AM
'One Shot Stop' does not mean automatic death. It means that the shootee stops what they are doing before they were shot. If you use 'OSS' to only mean the shootee immediately dies next to no guns do it with any reliability.

Hal
December 9, 2012, 10:23 AM
If you use 'OSS' to only mean the shootee immediately dies next to no guns do it with any reliability.
That makes absolutly no sense....

MedWheeler
December 9, 2012, 03:32 PM
Hal, I'll try to help you out. He's saying that, if "OSS" means "drops dead right there with one shot", then there are "next to no" handguns (meaning virtually none) that can be considered reliable "one-shot-stoppers".

the Black Spot
December 9, 2012, 06:39 PM
I would think head shots would only count as OSS

MedWheeler
December 9, 2012, 11:53 PM
^^There are a few different schools of thought on the definition of "one-shot stop."^^

1) Any shot that renders the person shot physically incapable of continuing whatever activity in which he was involved that prompted the shooting in the first place, whether or not he survives the shooting.

2) Any shot that either meets the above definition, or causes the person shot to intentionally cease the activity in which he was involved that prompted the shooting in the first place.

3) Any shot that meets the criteria in No. 1 above, due to the immediate death of the person shot.

Because No. 1 includes any incident described in No. 3, it is the most-commonly-accepted definition of "one-shot stop."
As you can see, though, it's very abstract. If I fire at an attacker and miss, and he still ceases his attack, is that a "one-shot stop", or a "no-shot stop"? If I don't even fire before he ceases his threat, is that a "no-shot stop"?

In any of those three above, "head shots" certainly may apply, but they would in no way be the "only" shots that could. They also would not automatically be considered as one-shot stops simply because people do frequently survive them, and some continue the behavior that prompted the shooting (though this is rare.)

Because head-shots are so hard to make in combat, cops and others training to use firearms in defensive fighting are still being trained to shoot for "center-of-mass."

Kymasabe
December 10, 2012, 03:00 AM
Hijack my thread much?

JERRY
December 10, 2012, 03:29 AM
in my experience, when charter arms was the school, the short bus the was ride. i had a 1 out of 3 gun success rate.

the Black Spot
December 10, 2012, 08:28 AM
Kymasabe, my apologies, I strayed from the thread as well.

Hal
December 10, 2012, 09:04 AM
Hijack my thread much?
You did say "school me"....

My experince w/Charter Arms isn't one that's all warm and fuzzy.
I had a very nice Dan Wesson .22 in excellent condition complete with barrel wrench,feeler gauge and in a soft case. Since I never shot it anymore, I decided to sell or trade it off a 15 years ago years ago.
long story short, nobody wnated it excpet one dealer at a gun show.
He offered me a beat to crap Charter Arms .38 that rattled like a can of nails as a straight up trade. I declined.

I started looking at CA in better condition after that and found I didn't really like their triggers.
The only good point CA had to offer to me was that they made the only snub nose .44.
So,,,,I started digging around to see how good both a Bulldog and the .44spl were.
That naturally lead me to The Son of Sam.
So...I spent a great deal of time reading through all the forensic reports online and gathered as much information about each individual shooting as possible.

I concluded the .44spl wasn't all that hot.
It could be, but, it needs something a bit "more".
That something a bit "more" isn't something a Bulldog could really handle without turning into a rattle can like the POS .38spl I saw.
My "normal" .44 spl handload is a 240 gr SWC of a dose of 2400 powder for about 900 to 1000 fps out of a S&W M29.
That's a bit on the stout side for a CA .44spl.

Back then there was only three real choices in .44spl
- hanload
- Silver Tip
- 246 gr RNL
Silver Tips were ok as long as they had enough barrel ahead of them - something a Bulldog didn't. Handloads were out simply because the Bulldog wasn't a good platform.
The 246gr RNL - probably the load Berkowitz used, didn't really do the job.

Moral?
Use the best load you can shoot well and make sure what you launch it with is reliable and accurate enough to do the job.

Catshooter
December 10, 2012, 11:42 PM
To the poster that said that the .38 comes out to 9.36 mm and the 9mm is a .35, you're close. But not really. :)

Nine mm is typically .355-.356. Thirty eight is typically .357-.358. As it's not really a .38 you can't convert it like it is.

A 9mm and a .38 can use the same barrel. Ruger has sold a Blackhawk revolver with a cylinder for each for many years. The .38 cylinder is chambered for the .357, but of course a .38 works well in it.

Bear in mind that these numbers are what's called 'nominal'. Meaning somewhat close. The 357 mag is supposed to be .357-.358, but I've had them from a tight .355 to almost .360.

Just so you know.


Cat

Kymasabe
December 11, 2012, 10:45 PM
Thank you all for your input.

lobo9er
December 11, 2012, 11:45 PM
this a thread about charter arms not berkowitz or his victims.

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