Who uses a Pistol Grip ONLY?


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Glockedout17
November 28, 2012, 08:56 PM
I have a Maverick 88 12 gauge with 18.5 inch barrel and I have been seeing alot of people with different stocks and accessories on theirs. I've always heard negative things about "Pistol Grips", but I've never used one and don't have any experience with them. I think they look really cool especially with a single point sling attached, I'm really trying to talk myself out of getting one, but my curious side is winning the battle. I'm looking at the Hogue Tamer grip.

What I want to know is:
1)Are pistol grips that bad? If so, why do people use them?

2)Can accuracy be achieved with a pistol grip?

3)Are there any other advantages to a pistol grip besides looking cool?

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Hunter125
November 28, 2012, 09:04 PM
I think people mostly avoid them because of the lack of accuracy and the recoil. To be accurate you would have to sight down the barrel, anything else would be shooting from the hip or the equivalent. You could learn to be accurate that way, but only with lots of practice.
The only advantage I see is a smaller package and more rounds per same overall length as a shoulder stocked shotty.

T Bran
November 28, 2012, 09:08 PM
Please dont sight down the barrel. ( unless you are good friends with a plastic surgeon ).
T

Hunter125
November 28, 2012, 09:10 PM
Please dont sight down the barrel. ( unless you are good friends with a plastic surgeon ).
T

I have seen people do this holding the gun a little further out than a shoulder stocked shotty, but yeah, don't get too close.

TurtlePhish
November 28, 2012, 09:33 PM
The only real advantage to a pistol grip is for its compactness and ease of use for breaching doors. In other words, it doesn't have much practical use for the average shooter, and for most people it's not nearly as effective as a traditional stock for common shotgun tasks.

Youngster
November 28, 2012, 11:02 PM
They can be shot with respectable speed and accuracy by sighting down the barrel. Even buck and slugs aren't too punishing unless you get into the magnum loads.

You have to apply some muscle tension though, don't just hold it out there like its a cup of coffee or something.

Still, I would prefer a full stock for almost every purpose.

JAshley73
November 29, 2012, 01:12 AM
There's probably more than you wanted to know about P.G.O. shotguns in that thread. I'm sure it won't take you long to get the feeling that P.G.O. shotguns are generally shunned on here. Also, it would probably be beneficial (and entertaining) to read through those 101 threads. Lots of good reading there.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=44465

Gryffydd
November 29, 2012, 01:12 AM
A laser sight or even a weapon light with a small hot spot can make aiming from the hip (or elbow level more likely) fairly accurate.

It will never be as fast as a full stock shorty on recovery or acquisition but that doesn't mean it might as well be a sharp stick as some around here seem to think.

DammitBoy
November 29, 2012, 01:15 AM
The Hogue Tamer grip works awesome. I installed one on my Mossberg 500 and my Remington 870 magnum express.

Highly recommend them!

reckless carolinian
November 29, 2012, 01:21 AM
Do we have to do this again, friends? Our esteemed moderator Mr. McCracken put this in the notes at the top, and in his 101 series. Also, it is a shotgun, not a purse. Who really cares how cool a Pistol Grip (Only) looks. If you don't bust doors, or ride in a cruiser for a paycheck, you probably should have a stock on your shotgun.

Shadow 7D
November 29, 2012, 01:42 AM
Your dental surgeon will thank you....

Justin
November 29, 2012, 02:36 AM
1)Are pistol grips that bad? If so, why do people use them?

Unequivocally, yes, they really are that bad.
People use them because they think that looking cool somehow translates to effectiveness.

2)Can accuracy be achieved with a pistol grip?

Put enough time into anything, and you can achieve impressive feats. There's video of Bob Munden hitting a balloon with a snub-nosed .38 special at 200 yards. That doesn't mean that a snub-nosed .38 is a better choice than a rifle.

3)Are there any other advantages to a pistol grip besides looking cool?

There's an argument to be made that the lack of a stock makes them much easier to stow and use in a tight space like a car, or reduces the amount of weight you have to carry if you intend to do some serious back-woods hiking. Some advocates for PGO shotguns will also claim that these guns are more easily maneuvered in tight quarters, like the inside of a house.

I would argue that the functional penalties* that a stockless shotgun incurs are much worse than having to put up with either of those disadvantages. If space/weight is really that much of a concern, you're probably better off jumping through the hoops to get an SBS, or use a pistol or bullpup shotgun or rifle.





*Off the top of my head:

1.) Inability to aim them accurately and with consistency.
2.) Slower to cycle.
3.) Slower transitions from one target to the next.
4.) Inability to use many kinds of ammunition due to the excessive recoil.
5.) Gaining proficiency requires that you invest much more time, energy, and ammunition than with a properly-stocked gun.
6.) Successfully aiming a PGO shotgun from an odd position that you haven't practiced (prone, rollover prone, at a target that is markedly higher or lower than you're used to, or through an oddly-shaped or small port) is much, much harder to do than with a properly stocked shotgun.
7.) An excessive penalty against being able to make rapid, accurate hits at further ranges** with slugs.
8.) An almost complete inability to hit flying targets***.


**Yes, I've seen the Hickock 45 video, and am aware that it can be done, but clearly not quickly, and certainly not without a lot of practice.

***Yes, I know, your PGO shotgun isn't for trap shooting. It doesn't change the fact that removing the stock also removes your odds of hitting a bird, be it clay or otherwise.

oneounceload
November 29, 2012, 10:36 AM
What I want to know is:
1)Are pistol grips that bad? If so, why do people use them?

2)Can accuracy be achieved with a pistol grip?

3)Are there any other advantages to a pistol grip besides looking cool?

1 - only mall ninjas use them
2 - no
3 - they don't even look cool, so no advantages whatsoever

Glockedout17
November 29, 2012, 11:04 AM
There's probably more than you wanted to know about P.G.O. shotguns in that thread. I'm sure it won't take you long to get the feeling that P.G.O. shotguns are generally shunned on here. Also, it would probably be beneficial (and entertaining) to read through those 101 threads. Lots of good reading there.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=44465
Thanks for that thread, very useful info. Wow, everyone seems to hate them, a few people seem to use them. They must really be that bad then. I've seen Hickok45 hit a 80 yard gong with a PGO shotgun so I know it's possible. What everyone seems to hate, is the practice associated with getting efficient with a PGO shotgun. I agree it does take practice, but a shotgun with a full stock also takes practice maybe not as much, but it does take practice. I wanted it for home defense, and was thinking it would be a good idea, but after reading that thread and this one I'm starting to think differently. How do you guys present a full stock in a home defense situation? How do do you maneuver through doors and how do you search corners?

Sam1911
November 29, 2012, 11:12 AM
1)Are pistol grips that bad? If so, why do people use them?
Yes. They are "that" bad. They are not UN-usable. They are simply far, FAR less usable, efficient, effective, quick to handle/aim/point, and achieve accurate hits with than full-stocked guns.

As a range toy they are a lot of fun and quite challenging. As a serious defensive or hunting weapon, they are utter foolishness as you're either risking wounding & loss of a game animal just to play with a "dumb" gun, or you're risking your very life trying to prevent your own death with a tool that is very difficult to make effective hits with.

2)Can accuracy be achieved with a pistol grip?Yes. If you have a lot of time to make your shot -- the luxury of a slow, careful presentation to line up the un-anchored rear of the receiver with the bead on the barrel properly -- you can hit a static target. Wingshooting (or shooting anything on the move) is a whole different problem and takes so much dedicated practice that it would be completely unreasonable for the average "good" shooter to devote him/herself to.

3)Are there any other advantages to a pistol grip besides looking cool?It is certainly the most compact way to store a shotgun in firing condition. If you have NO other room to carry a firearm and compactness will truly trump your need to be most likely to hit what you will shoot at, then they may be a well-considered choice. In most of those cases, a much easier to shoot AND store handgun would probably be a much better idea, but sometimes folks believe they'd be better served by a big impressive-looking gun than a little less-impressive-looking pistol or revolver.

Fred Fuller
November 29, 2012, 11:18 AM
Who uses a Pistol Grip ONLY?

I do - on all my pistols. :D

Not on the shotguns I depend on in for serious use, though. But you should try one for yourself, so you will know for sure from your own experience, not from what a bunch of strangers tell you on the iNt3Rw3Bz.

BTW, I DO have ONE shotgun with a pistol grip... a High Standard 10A semiautomatic.

http://www.imfdb.org/images/f/f4/HIghStandardM10Shotgun.jpg

- image from http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/High_Standard_Model_10

DammitBoy
November 29, 2012, 11:27 AM
you should try one for yourself, so you will know for sure from your own experience, not from what a bunch of strangers tell you on the iNt3Rw3Bz.



This for the win. No matter what you post about here, you will find plenty of people telling you it is the worst thing ever.

Even when it flies in the face of your own experience, plenty of folks just live to tell you you're wrong.

Rob0321
November 29, 2012, 11:40 AM
The only time I have ever used a PGO shotgun was for ballistically breaching doors. As soon as the door was breached it went back onto my back and my carbine was in my hands. There was no aiming involved as I merely had to hold the end of the barrel about an inch off of the hinges.

Now, if you are thinking about breaching doors, ballistic breaching is slow, loud and not nearly as effective as explosive or mechanical.

If you don't plan on doing any breaching you might want to think about just going with a standard stock.

Fred Fuller
November 29, 2012, 11:45 AM
How do you guys present a full stock in a home defense situation? How do do you maneuver through doors and how do you search corners?

Simple - I let the dogs (two Fila Brasileiros and a Brittany) do the searching part :D. Meanwhile I'm behind the bed opposite the bedroom door with my back against the wall, with the 'house gun' pointed at the door.

Training is the answer to most "how do..." questions. A good fighting shotgun class will address moving in structures with a shotgun. The NRA's Personal Protection In The Home class is IMHO the gold standard basic guide to home defense, even though this class emphasizes handguns rather than shotguns. It teaches hunkering down with a firearm and a phone, rather than going forth and looking for trouble. Folks I know who do house clearing for a living consider solo efforts in house clearing suicidal. I don't generally argue with people who know more than I do.

The big thing is KNOWING whether there really are intruders, or if the noise that woke you up was just the cat knocking over something. And the answer to that is that security comes in layers. Make sure no one can get into your home without raising a ruckus, and then you won't have to worry about whether it was the cat, or some latter day Charles Manson crew that made that noise.

odorf
November 29, 2012, 11:50 AM
I own a mossberg 300 A 12 gauge pump
with pistol grips. its my home defense weapon
i find it a very good weapon to grab aholt of in the middle of the night an point towards the door. it rests in a old saddle rifle scabbard on my bed post
loaded with # 7 shot then 3- 00 bucks then slugs
It's short enough to be able to walk thru the house without bumping into door jambs.and lets face it, if you hear that chik-chik as you eject the #7 and load a 00 buck. that alone will scare the pi$$ out of most folks:)
its a shotgun, i fire it from the hip. i figure in a home invasion situation i will be shootin no more than 20 feet
and in 20 feet, your leg is gone perp is stopped cold.
the 00 is for stopping him. the slugs are for killing him as he runs twards the door.
I may be wrong in my thinking, but if your in my house. at nite .I will shoot you in the back,side, front
this is not the old west. I wont feel bad about a back shot at all

oneounceload
November 29, 2012, 11:53 AM
How do you guys present a full stock in a home defense situation? How do do you maneuver through doors and how do you search corners?

Simple - I let the dogs (two Fila Brasileiros and a Brittany) do the searching part . Meanwhile I'm behind the bed opposite the bedroom door with my back against the wall, with the 'house gun' pointed at the door.

+1

Breaching your own doors and doing room sweeps looks good in video games and on police shows, reality is something entirely different

MarshallDodge
November 29, 2012, 11:54 AM
I bought the Mossberg Combo kit 22 years ago. It came with the two barrels, full length stock, and the pistol grip.

I put the pistol grip on the gun one time, took it to the range and shot it, and as soon as I got home I put the full length stock back on. For a little fun it is fine but like others have stated, in a hunting or defense scenario it makes the gun more difficult to control.

RustHunter87
November 29, 2012, 12:41 PM
Ive got a Hogue tamer, with 2 3/4 shells its not so bad I've even put some buckshot threw it, haven't punched my self in the face yet! a friend did though :p
I use it just to waste shells mostly

Teachu2
November 29, 2012, 12:56 PM
I have a Hogue Tamer on a Mossy 500 - until this weekend, when I'm putting a pistol-grip stock on it. Waste of time and money, IMO.

Glockedout17
November 29, 2012, 01:01 PM
You guys have successfully talked me out of buying a pistol grip. I also watched a few videos and see why they get such negative feedback. Thanks for your input, you guys are always helpful.

Skribs
November 29, 2012, 04:16 PM
Fred, I'd rather have a PGO shotgun than that lefty-death-trap.

odorf
November 29, 2012, 05:11 PM
in defense of the pistol grip shotgun. it is NOT meant to be held up like a pistol and fired. that would be insane. it is meant to be held low
belly high. one hand on the pistol grip the other on the top of barrel
a foot or so back from the end of barrel. to steady and control
a shot gun is not a rifle, you do not "aim" it. It is "pointed" at its intended target.
shooting at your boogie man across the bedroom is only 20 ft MAX
more than likely 10 or 15 ft.
point and shoot. it can be done with sleep in your eyes

would i go hunting with it, he)( no. its no good for that. i have other guns for that.

its a close quarter, man killer only. not good for anything else
this was just my humble opinion, not meaning to be arguemenative

Skribs
November 29, 2012, 05:30 PM
Wow odorf...the whole "you don't aim a shotgun, you point it" generally has to do more with the fact that wing shooters use a well fit shotgun to point towards the target. PGO shotguns are not well fit.

At 5 yards, the shotgun blast will probably only spread maybe 3-5", depending on barrel length, choke, wad, and other factors. You still need to get very close in order to score hits with any pellets, and need a good solid hit to hit with all of the pellets.

Teachu2
November 29, 2012, 06:13 PM
There's a reason pretty much every patrol car in the US has a stocked, short-barrelled, pump 12ga shotgun mounted inside instead of a pistol-gripped one - because they are much easier to use effectively.

The pistol-gripped full-length stocks are gaining popularity, I suspect riding the ARs coattails. I can see some real advantages to these, especially if I need to move while using my left hand for other things. They can be shoulder-fired or hip-fired using the same techniques as a standard riot gun, and retain the balance of one.

I'll report back when I get mine out to shoot.

Youngster
November 29, 2012, 06:22 PM
in defense of the pistol grip shotgun. it is NOT meant to be held up like a pistol and fired. that would be insane. it is meant to be held low belly high. one hand on the pistol grip the other on the top of barrel a foot or so back from the end of barrel. to steady and control a shot gun is not a rifle, you do not "aim" it. It is "pointed" at its intended target. shooting at your boogie man across the bedroom is only 20 ft MAX more than likely 10 or 15 ft. point and shoot. it can be done with sleep in your eyes.

would i go hunting with it, he)( no. its no good for that. i have other guns for that.

its a close quarter, man killer only. not good for anything else this was just my humble opinion, not meaning to be arguemenative

Have you attempted to shoot one at eye level? I found that not only is it not dangerous to do so but you don't even necessarily need two hands, even with buck or slugs.

Eye or shoulder level fire is the way to go with PGO.

Skribs
November 29, 2012, 06:29 PM
Those advocating the SBS over the standard shotgun for compact, I have to ask: Is a 10" shotgun with a stock going to be more compact than an 18.5" PGO without? What about the Super Shorty which has both a short barrel and no stock?

I'm speaking specifically from the idea of portability/concealability. The PGO has THAT going for it.

Youngster
November 29, 2012, 06:40 PM
My 12.5" barrel 870 with short Hogue stock isn't much longer than an 18.5" PGO, and worlds easier to shoot.

If it weren't for legal restrictions I'm guessing you wouldn't see many PGOs *unless* they were on really short barrelled breaching type guns like the Serbu.

Glockedout17
November 29, 2012, 07:43 PM
Have you attempted to shoot one at eye level? I found that not only is it not dangerous to do so but you don't even necessarily need two hands, even with buck or slugs.

Eye or shoulder level fire is the way to go with PGO.
Finally, someone that likes a pistol grip. So your saying that a pistol grip is actually manageable and that you can actually get hits with it? I see alot of people that are really accurate with them, but then again I won't really get time to practice as much as they probably do.

Youngster
November 29, 2012, 09:05 PM
Finally, someone that likes a pistol grip. So your saying that a pistol grip is actually manageable and that you can actually get hits with it? I see alot of people that are really accurate with them, but then again I won't really get time to practice as much as they probably do.

I don't know about "like", but I wanted to see for myself if they were as bad as usually depicted, the answer to that is "not necessarily", though as has been said many times there's not much a shoulder stock doesn't do better.

Grunt
November 29, 2012, 10:19 PM
Well, one of my Remington 870s has the LE top-folding stock on it. I mainly have it because it's as legally close (non SBS barrel length) to the couple of 870s I carried in the Marines on a couple occasions when I was on barracks duty. Have I shot it with the stock folded and using the pistol grip? Yup. Can I say that this method sucks? Yup! It's great for compact storage but that's about it. Around the house, I always keep the stock unfolded and it's a rare event I ever fire it with it folded. Yeah, it sucks that bad!!!:barf:
I know there is a lot of hatered towards the Remington LE folding stock as well but either I got a pretty well made one or I manage some technique oddly enough that I haven't found it uncomfortable to shoot so I don't know what the problems others have with this stock. Really though, if you want to find out first hand why PGO stocks are widely shunned, try a folder be it a Remington LE, Choate side folder or something similar. This way you can see for yourself why they are not well liked yet you still have a buttstock that does work well yet allows you to keep it in more compact spaces.
In all honesty though, that is the only folding shotgun stock I have. While it's still quite serviceable, I just prefer the traditional stocks when it comes to shotguns.

DammitBoy
November 29, 2012, 11:03 PM
Finally, someone that likes a pistol grip. So your saying that a pistol grip is actually manageable and that you can actually get hits with it?

I have no problem with mine. It's not as hard to do as some claim, and it isn't going to break your wrist either. Use two hands.

Axel Larson
November 30, 2012, 12:59 AM
To odorf I would advise rethinking your home defense plan if I were you and I am not talking about weapons but if you shoot a intruder in the back, you will most likely spend jail time. remember all we care about is eliminating the threat if the intruder is running away the threat has been eliminated. No further action needed.
To op look through the fighting shotgun thread.

Youngster
November 30, 2012, 01:02 AM
One thing I avoid doing when shooting a PGO is shooting from the hip, as not only is it very difficult to be accurate but it seems to cost you a lot in terms of alignment and the ability to use muscle tension when using a more vertically oriented pistol grip.

A bird's head or cut down regular stock would probably work better for hip shooting, though at the price of not being as good to shoot at eye or shoulder level.

Glockedout17
November 30, 2012, 11:17 AM
I know a PGO probably won't break a wrist or bash me in the face, but having the traditional stock feels a bit more natural to me. Having that extra shoulder support, aides in accuracy and follow up shots. Keeping my shotgun the way it is now, I think is the way to go. I will be trying my friends PGO today at the range, just to get a first hand experience.

Guvnor
November 30, 2012, 11:55 AM
I put a Choate pistol grip (like 25 bucks from midwayusa) on my single shot H&R pardner 410 back when I was younger and dumber. I was on some lean times financially and it was all i had for home defense. At the time i figured it would make the gun more handy and most home defense scenarios are probably going to happen at spitting distances anyway. It had pretty mild recoil being a 410, probably wouldn't be much fun to shoot in bigger gauges though.

I have other guns now, and i have something much more effective for home defense but i still like to take out the pardner for fun. Ill admit a pistol grip 410 serves no practical purpose but it sure is a fun range toy.

ATLDave
November 30, 2012, 12:01 PM
I only fooled around with a PGO once, and that was more than enough for me. The web and heel of my right hand was sore for a day or two afterward. I'm not generally recoil-sensitive, and can bang away for hundreds of rounds with 10mm or .357 handguns, or from shoulder-fired 12 gauges without much complaint. Maybe I was doing it wrong, but that PGO hurt.

Fred Fuller
November 30, 2012, 12:05 PM
Fred, I'd rather have a PGO shotgun than that lefty-death-trap.

It's very clearly labeled with a warning not to fire it from the left shoulder...

Fiv3r
November 30, 2012, 12:56 PM
I bought a PG for my first 870 thinking that having the option to swap out the stock would give me a short gun better for HD. Of course, after half a box of target load shells, that puppy was off and I put the stock back on it.

I have gravitated toward full stocks and wood furniture. The old Ithaca 37 DSPS is my go to gun, and it's stock as it came from the factory back in the 60's.

I would say that if you HAVE to have a shorter shotgun, just get an adjustable AR style of stock. At least then you have SOMETHING to put against your shoulder if you need to fire a Shortie. I rather like my AR stock on my, well, AR simply because it packs smaller if I don't want to lug around the full case. Plus .223 isn't that punishing even if your arm is "too bent" with a short stock.

Never really cared for them on the 12 gauge, but if I felt the NEED, that's the way I would go.

kayak-man
November 30, 2012, 03:29 PM
GlockedOut17,

Last time I checked, most pistol grips aren't terribly expensive. I'd just buy one, try it out, and decide for yourself. If you don't like it, you can always put the old stock back on. There are some things that deep down, we know are probably a bad idea, but we still just have try it out.

I know when I first started shooting shotguns, I was told to pull the gun into my shoulder when shooting it. It worked all right. Over the summer, I took a shotgun class, and the instructor recommended "stretching" the gun - pushing forward with your forward hand, and pulling with your rear hand. It definitely reduced the amount of recoil, and I think that using this same technique with a PGO shotgun might yield better results than trying to shoot from the hip or anchoring it against your shoulder.

Chris "the Kayak-Man" Johnson

Justin
November 30, 2012, 04:59 PM
If you decide to try it out, I would strongly suggest picking up a shot timer (http://www.brownells.com/shooting-accessories/range-gear/shot-timers/index.htm) to take with you. That way you can quantify your practice session to see how long it takes you to complete a particular action.

If you really want to quantify it, take both the PG and the regular stock with you, switch them out while at the range. Run the same drills and record the times off of your shot timer. I suspect you'll be fairly surprised at the results.

Sheepdog1968
November 30, 2012, 07:02 PM
How do you guys present a full stock in a home defense situation? How do do you maneuver through doors and how do you search corners?

Simple - I let the dogs (two Fila Brasileiros and a Brittany) do the searching part :D. Meanwhile I'm behind the bed opposite the bedroom door with my back against the wall, with the 'house gun' pointed at the door.

Training is the answer to most "how do..." questions. A good fighting shotgun class will address moving in structures with a shotgun. The NRA's Personal Protection In The Home class is IMHO the gold standard basic guide to home defense, even though this class emphasizes handguns rather than shotguns. It teaches hunkering down with a firearm and a phone, rather than going forth and looking for trouble. Folks I know who do house clearing for a living consider solo efforts in house clearing suicidal. I don't generally argue with people who know more than I do.

The big thing is KNOWING whether there really are intruders, or if the noise that woke you up was just the cat knocking over something. And the answer to that is that security comes in layers. Make sure no one can get into your home without raising a ruckus, and then you won't have to worry about whether it was the cat, or some latter day Charles Manson crew that made that noise.
Only when I was young and ignorant did I keep my shotgun with a pistol grip. It is much better to have a stock on it. Fred is correct regarding training to learn how to use it. Yes, the training will cost as much if not more than the shotgun but it is well with it. Own few guns and take as much training as you can. Much better than many guns a little training.

DammitBoy
November 30, 2012, 09:41 PM
Alsoplustoo - lots more fun on a 20 gauge or 16 gauge shotgun than the 12 gauge...

(which is why my sawed-off double barrel with a birdshead grip is a 16 gauge)

Glockedout17
December 1, 2012, 12:13 PM
Shot my friend PG shotgun yesterday. It wasn't all that bad, I was hitting targets out to 15 yards with it. I'm 5*9 200 lbs , would that make a difference? My hand was killing me afterwards, that took all the fun out of my range session. After we put the 12 ga down, my accuracy with my handgun blowed. I wouldn't use the pistol grip on 12 gauge, maybe my 20 gauge will be more forgiving.

Youngster
December 1, 2012, 02:37 PM
Keep your whole hand tight to the grip, not just your fingers, take out any slack.

Also use more forward muscle tension with your lead hand.

Shotguns kick hard, but barring crazy loads or lightweight guns, its more of a heavy push than a snappy punch.

As long as you have good slignment, properly applied muscle tension and the gun does't have a running start to smack you with, then nothing should be battered or sore.

Pete D.
December 1, 2012, 07:55 PM
is "pointed" at its intended target. shooting at your boogie man across the bedroom is only 20 ft MAX more than likely 10 or 15 ft. point and shoot. it can be done with
Tweny feet is less than seven yards. Fifteen feet is five yards.
The standard figures of shotgun pattern are that a FC pattern will open at one inch per yard. A cylinder choke will be about twice that.
Using modern loads, we often find that patterns will be tighter yet than those figures show.
So.....that shotgun that is being pointed from the hip under a stressful and maybe not fully awake condition is going to throw a pattern that - in the situations cited - is about one foot wide at best and may be smaller than five inches if the gun is choked.
You don't think that a miss is possible from an unaimed gun?

Shotguns kick hard, but barring crazy loads or lightweight guns
A PGO is a lightweight gun.
Pete

Drail
December 1, 2012, 08:49 PM
Unless you're clearing hallways and rooms in a crack house don't even consider a PGO. It is a very specialized tool that offers advantages in tight spaces but takes a much higher level of skill and practice to use anywhere else. A full stock allows use of slugs with a good deal of accuracy. A full stock also allows you to shoot from the hip if you don't have time to mount the gun. But the all time best advantage of having a full stock ? - the Marine Corps buttstroke.

TurkeyOak
December 1, 2012, 09:04 PM
I bought an AR style stock, pistol grip with adjustable stock. See http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/SHT-286
I think you need to shoulder a shotgun for accuracy. When I shoot from the hip I'm wild, but shoulder it and im dead on.
You can shorten it up for home defense or extend it for clays, etc.

GWARGHOUL
December 1, 2012, 09:33 PM
http://www.gunslot.com/files/gunslot/images/40815.jpg

I have this setup on my Mossberg 590.

I like it a lot. Best of both worlds kinda thing. If I had a decent hunting shotgun, I would put this on it too.

oneounceload
December 1, 2012, 09:49 PM
I wouldn't use the pistol grip on 12 gauge, maybe my 20 gauge will be more forgiving.

Not really as the 20 is typically lighter than the 12 ans can actually have MORE recoil than a 12. Even a way-too-short youth stock is better than a PGO grip; but if you really MUST have something like that -at least get the "bird'shead" grip - a more relaxed angle, it doesn't hurt as much

http://shockwavetechnologies.com/site/?page_id=14

Youngster
December 1, 2012, 09:58 PM
A PGO is a lightweight gun.

Not really in typical riot length barrel 12 gauge pump guise, when I think of lightweight in a 12 gauge I think of sub 6 lbers like the Ithaca 37 Ultralight or the H&R singles.

Now the entry/breaching length guns like the Serbu Super Shorty are certainly light, though they don't have as much recoil as you'd think as they lose a lot of power on both ends with their short barrels.

Pete D.
December 2, 2012, 07:53 AM
Quote:
A PGO is a lightweight gun.
Not really in typical riot length barrel 12 gauge pump guise, when I think of lightweight in a 12 gauge I think of sub 6 lbers like the Ithaca 37 Ultralight or the H&R singles.

Now the entry/breaching length guns like the Serbu Super Shorty are certainly light, though they don't have as much recoil as you'd think as they lose a lot of power on both ends with their short barrels.
Well...I am gonna argue with that a bit, if you don't mind.
A - the singles from H&R/NEF really don't fit into this discussion.
B - when one takes a full length stock off a gun, as well as a few inches of barrel, a substantial amount of weight has been removed. In my book, anything under seven pounds is a lightweight SG..YMMV.
C - Having never shot a Shorty, I have no first hand experience. I do know that recoil is a function of weight (of shot, powder, gun) and velocity. Given the same powder and shot stats for both a SS at 4lbs and a FL SG at seven pounds (most FL SGs weigh more than this) reducing the velocity to 900 fps for the SS (from 1200 for the FL SG) the recoil of the small gun is actually more that the FL gun. At 850 fps, they are the same. Of course, I am only guessing at the SS velocity. (Does anyone know what the velocity is out of 6.5" bbl.?)
The point of this set of data is that PGOs do have more recoil....they weigh less than the same gun with a longer barrel and longer stock. Lighter guns have more recoil, all other factors being the same. They would have to lose a whole lot of velocity for that to change.

The weight difference between a Mossberg Persuader/Cruiser when going from FS to PGO is one pound and a 16% increase in free recoil.

Glockedout17
December 2, 2012, 10:52 AM
Lol, that shockwave grip looks ridiculous. I've curved myself off of the whole pistol grip thing, after reading this thread and a few others, it all makes sense. You need that added shoulder support to send lead where you want it to go.

Sam1911
December 2, 2012, 01:39 PM
Maybe there's some middle ground for shorty 12 ga. guns?

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=675617

Miked7762
December 2, 2012, 03:54 PM
Maybe there's some middle ground for shorty 12 ga. guns?

Aaaw, they've already discontinued that while they devise a new product that "does not transmit any force to the jaw." Too bad, one of those and an AR stock adapter on something like a Mossberg 535 would have made legendary YouTube videos.

Youngster
December 2, 2012, 03:56 PM
Well...I am gonna argue with that a bit, if you don't mind.
A - the singles from H&R/NEF really don't fit into this discussion.
B - when one takes a full length stock off a gun, as well as a few inches of barrel, a substantial amount of weight has been removed. In my book, anything under seven pounds is a lightweight SG..YMMV.
C - Having never shot a Shorty, I have no first hand experience. I do know that recoil is a function of weight (of shot, powder, gun) and velocity. Given the same powder and shot stats for both a SS at 4lbs and a FL SG at seven pounds (most FL SGs weigh more than this) reducing the velocity to 900 fps for the SS (from 1200 for the FL SG) the recoil of the small gun is actually more that the FL gun. At 850 fps, they are the same. Of course, I am only guessing at the SS velocity. (Does anyone know what the velocity is out of 6.5" bbl.?)

The point of this set of data is that PGOs do have more recoil....they weigh less than the same gun with a longer barrel and longer stock. Lighter guns have more recoil, all other factors being the same. They would have to lose a whole lot of velocity for that to change.

The weight difference between a Mossberg Persuader/Cruiser when going from FS to PGO is one pound and a 16% increase in free recoil.

You are technically correct but for me and the purposes of talking recoil, "lightweight" is the point where a shotgun subjectively starts becoming somewhat uncomfortable to shoot heavy loads out of even with good shooting form.

The typical 870 and Mossberg riot length PGOs aren't really there unless you get into magnum loads.

The same with the Serbu type guns, t exactly the most scientific of oberservations, if you go on Youtube you'll see that for most folks they are at least as easy to handle for a given load than full sized PGOs.

Except for the muzzle blast I didn't find these intimidating to shoot at all.

I believe the Serbu, which has an actual barrel length of something like 7 3/16s, typically clocks from 950-1150 with regular full power buckshot.

Pete D.
December 3, 2012, 09:19 AM
You are technically correct but for me and the purposes of talking recoil, "lightweight" is the point where a shotgun subjectively starts becoming somewhat uncomfortable to shoot heavy loads out of even with good shooting form.

The typical 870 and Mossberg riot length PGOs aren't really there unless you get into magnum loads.

The same with the Serbu type guns, t exactly the most scientific of oberservations, if you go on Youtube you'll see that for most folks they are at least as easy to handle for a given load than full sized PGOs.

Except for the muzzle blast I didn't find these intimidating to shoot at all.

I believe the Serbu, which has an actual barrel length of something like 7 3/16s, typically clocks from 950-1150 with regular full power buckshot.

OK. Having never shot a Serbu or the like, I will defer to your experience with their felt recoil.

JERRY
December 3, 2012, 09:31 AM
breacher grip, takes ALL the sting out of shooting, can do slugs with one hand just to see the recoil reduction....it really makes a difference...

jim goose
December 30, 2012, 08:45 PM
I think pistol grips get a bad rap. Most HD sitation will be very up close and personal, and a 12,or 20 GA, pistol grip will put a bad guy 5-10 feet away down hard. Id take one over a 9mm anyday in my hallway.

Also, Hockok45 was hitting his gong, one handed with slugs without a problem.

Its raw knock down power.

TreeDoc
December 31, 2012, 04:24 AM
Have a Houge tamer pistol grip for sale cheap. Use a full stock.

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