44 special +P? why or why not?


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jason41987
November 29, 2012, 03:41 AM
ive read other threads here and on other forums where someone has asked a question reguarding a specific purpose, whether it be defense, hunting, target shooting, or in reguard to accuracy, recoil, etc... and i know how these two cartridges stack up...

357 has less recoil, excellent performance for defense, makes a very nice deer cartridge out of a lever action, and can fit in smaller, lighter, narrower framed pistols

you might ask why not 357 or 44 magnum?.. and well, i see it this way.. when hunting, you can only kill a deer once... in self defence, dead is dead, the 357... 44 magnum in my opinion goes way over the top in practicality and to handle the extra power required thicker cylinders and beefier frames adding more to the weight of it

looking at 44 special +P loads, im seeing loads like 250 grains at 1100fps... this would put the 44 special +P at about the energy level of 357 magnum (around 700ft/lbs) at lower pressure (roughly 27000 PSI)

so in your opinion.. would you personally like a hot 44 special over a 357 magnum if you had the choice between the two in only a slightly larger frame, would you just prefer the ammo availability of a more common 357 mag, or would you step it all the way up to 44 mag for the best all around performance at a variety of tasks? and why?

im just curious as to what you guys are most interest in, what you think works best, and what your opinions are about these?

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Kiln
November 29, 2012, 06:10 AM
Don't know what works best ballistically but I'm betting that a nice .44 special load with LRN bullets would make a pretty big dent in a bad guy.

I've got my new Rossi .44 magnum sitting beside me right now but it is loaded with the .44 specials because they're much less difficult to control recoil wise and still put a nice big hole in your target.

Lucky Derby
November 29, 2012, 07:08 AM
Long time fan of the .44 Special here. A nice +P such as described would be nice. .44 Special guns tend to be a bit trimmer and lighter than their .44 Magnum counterparts.
While .357 can be had in even smaller, easier to carry frames, it does come at the cost of flash & recoil.

snooperman
November 29, 2012, 07:27 AM
Elmer Keith used very hot 44 loads in his S&W guns with 250 gr bullet going 1200 ft/sec. He also blew up a few guns with his loads too. The 44 special was not designed for that. When S&W came out with the 44 magnum , Elmer went straight to it. That would be my advice to you too.

snooperman
November 29, 2012, 07:38 AM
Buffalo Bore makes a 250 gr Keith bullet going about 1000 ft/sec with a low pressure powder. Depending on your gun, you may want to give that a try.

beatledog7
November 29, 2012, 07:43 AM
I like the .44SPL and load it mostly with 240gr SWCs over moderate powder charges for my .44Mag Redhawk. I don't have a chrony, but by the manual I should be achieving about 750FPS.

As I see it, a moderate .44SPL load would be more than plenty to make your point as an SD round, and its soft recoil (in a reasonably heavy gun) allows for rapid follow-up shots. Slamming an assailant with a faster-moving bullet, especially a non-expanding bullet, might make a discernible difference. But it might not. It will undoubtedly make a difference to the shooter. For me, pushing a .44cal bullet to 1100FPS is a job for a Magnum.

powell&hyde
November 29, 2012, 07:50 AM
Take a look at the Aug/Sept 2005 Handloader magazine where Brian Pearce did an excellent 4 page write up on the 44 special.

brnmw
November 29, 2012, 08:02 AM
.357 Mag. vs. .44 Spl. too me in terms of taking down a bad guy are, yes both will get the job done. The .357 Mag. does have a bigger signature recoil, flash, and noise. Owning both a .357 Mag., and .44 Rem. Mag. revolver is always an awsome thing having the advantage of being able to shoot both .38 Spl. and .44 Spl. insead of using the magnum loads. I do not really like .44 pl. / .38 Spl. "designated only" revolvers... too limiting. IMO.

Buffalo Bore
ANTI-PERSONNEL 44 Special Ammo - 200 gr. Hard Cast Wadcutter (1,000 fps)
Heavy .44 Special Ammo - 180 gr. J.H.P. (1,150 fps/M.E. 543 ft.lbs.)

CraigC
November 29, 2012, 09:12 AM
I'll take the .44Spl any day of the week and twice on Sunday. The .357 needs all that velocity and is very dependent upon bullet expansion to be effective. With that velocity, comes a terribly uncomfortable, concussive muzzle blast. The big bores, like the .44Spl, do not need high velocities or expansion to be effective and will get the job done without making your ears bleed.


Elmer Keith used very hot 44 loads in his S&W guns with 250 gr bullet going 1200 ft/sec. He also blew up a few guns with his loads too. The 44 special was not designed for that. When S&W came out with the 44 magnum , Elmer went straight to it. That would be my advice to you too.
I've been reading Elmer Keith for some time and have most of his work. I have only ever read of ONE sixgun letting go and that was a blackpowder frame Colt SAA .45Colt. Never a .44Spl. In fact, I've never heard of anyone blowing a .44Spl. In reality, there is nothing wrong with the heavy Keith load in appropriate sixguns. In single actions, we have the lovely Colt SAA, its replicas, custom and factory mid-frame Rugers. All of which are much more svelte than their .44Mag brethren. Most the time, a 37oz .44Spl is all you need.

http://photos.imageevent.com/newfrontier45/sixgunsiii/large/IMG_7120e.jpg

USSR
November 29, 2012, 10:25 AM
...looking at 44 special +P loads, im seeing loads like 250 grains at 1100fps... this would put the 44 special +P at about the energy level of 357 magnum (around 700ft/lbs) at lower pressure (roughly 27000 PSI)

I will simply repeat what I posted in another thread in regards to +P loads in .45 Colt, which applies equally to the .44 Special:

"When you're talking about hunting with handgun rounds (whether in a handgun or rifle), forget about energy tables. It's all about bullet caliber, weight and construction, and the ability to completely penetrate the game animal. Game animals don't read energy charts and they only respond to either shutting down the CNS or loss of blood pressure".

Don

wlewisiii
November 29, 2012, 11:19 PM
My decision on the issue was that .44 Special +P <= .45 Colt in a modern revolver. I can do just that bit more than .44 Special with my .45 Colt in a 625 to make a difference without getting into Magnums. I've shot more than a few .357 & .44 Magnums. I prefer .38 Special & .45 Colt instead (both somewhat hot, but still).

jason41987
November 30, 2012, 01:45 AM
as for single actions, hartford makes an 1875 remington they say can chamber and fire 44 magnum... i see some pretty close to accurate looking SAAs firing 44 mag as well... the uberti calahan i think is what im referring to, but im not sure if these are standard size frames...

now, i like the idea of a 44 caliber cartridge, but i do think 44 magnum is way over the top of most practical uses... this is the basis of getting these, or perhaps a smith or ruger, whichever revolver i might like in the 44 special cartridge

and these buffalo bore loads... are these within the standard SAAMI max pressure?.. these loads would top anything an automatic can offer under 10mm, not as excessively powerful as a 44 magnum, able to be chambered in lighter, slimmer frames... it has a lot of advantages and its a cartridge i think i could get behind, and would love to see more available in this load without the excessive "beef" needed for a full on 44 mag revolver

i guess with these buffalo bore loads and the ones ive stated in the +P range it has the potential to be one of the better all-purpose rounds within reason... unfortunately it seems revolver manufacturers are more concerned with over the top power lately (enter the 500 magnum)

jason41987
November 30, 2012, 01:48 AM
also, im not such a fan of the blackhawks.. nothing wrong with them, but im so used to a single action revolver having fixed sights, and seeing an SAA with a more streamlined profile as opposed to the raised top of the blackhawk... it just doesnt look normal to me, because it looks so close to the SAA

aarondhgraham
November 30, 2012, 12:57 PM
When S&W came out with the 44 magnum , Elmer went straight to it. That would be my advice to you too.

Correct me if I am wrong,,,
I don't think Elmer Keith "went straight to it",,,
Didn't Elmer Keith help develop the .44 magnum with S&W?

Aarond

.

jason41987
December 1, 2012, 03:51 AM
this also makes me wonder.... why was there never a .41 special?... as popular as the 40S&W is, id be willing to buy into a more sensible 41 caliber loading in a revolver.... i guess im not as enamored with over-the-top magnum rounds i guess... i guess some people need a handgun that puts out as much power as a military rifle

mnrivrat
December 1, 2012, 06:36 AM
My opinion is that if you would be concerned that the 44 Spl standard loading is not enough, then go to a 44 Magnum gun.

For SD and other uses I am pleased with the 44 Spl's performance with standard pressure loads. I have shot a lot of 357 magnum rounds and have no issue with that caliber either. Either would serve well for most any situation of SD . The 44 Spl is more pleasant to shoot .

Lucky Derby
December 1, 2012, 06:59 AM
Jason, there is a .41 Special. It is a wildcat cartridge made from cut down .41 Magnum brass. It is most commonly found in rechambered S&W L frames.

jason41987
December 1, 2012, 02:49 PM
i like 44 special, in the buffalo bore loads they seem to have a ton of performance while remaining under saami pressures as theyre not listed as +P... so i think 44 special is fine in the hotter loads... but 44 magnum is just way over the top for anything practical outside of hunting

jfh
December 1, 2012, 11:33 PM
a relative newcomer to all of its loadings. I have chased reloading data for it, however, and have numerous loads ready for testing (which was set aside for this year because of health issues).

So, to make a good decision on this, you really should look at what Powell&Hyde said: Get the Handloader 236 (and 260) issues for a comprehensive examination of loading modern .44 S&W Spl. guns to three pressure levels.

They have successfully identified a number of powders that work well at, IIRC 15,000 (SAAMI) 22,000 their "Level II" and Level III (>=25,000) and the guns that handle them well.

If for no other reason than the fact that I found out Power Pistol is nominally a functional equivalent to the ubiquitous Unique loads for .44 Spl the articles are worth their weight in--well, in Power Pistol (flash be damned, but it meters so much better).

Also, go over to reloading and search for Float Pilot--he's got relaoding research underway for the alloy / 3" barrel guns. Personally, I shoot mine from a 624-4" and a 396, and I am happy with the Level II loads. But, I am not really loading for hunting, either.

I got mine a couple seasons ago--but they may well still have some. Check it out.

Jim H.

56hawk
December 2, 2012, 12:46 AM
As far as I know there is no SAAMI specifications for 44 Special +P which makes it a little difficult to compare. For self defense I like to use factory ammo from well known large manufactures. There are lots of good choices for 357 Magnum and even a few for 44 Magnum. However in 44 Special there aren't very many. And all of the factory ammo I could find was less powerful than even 45 ACP.

meef
December 2, 2012, 01:26 AM
For self defense I like to use factory ammo from well known large manufactures. There are lots of good choices for 357 Magnum and even a few for 44 Magnum. However in 44 Special there aren't very many. And all of the factory ammo I could find was less powerful than even 45 ACP.I would recommend that you look at Buffalo Bore in that case.

For example:

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=282

If that won't handle your self defense needs, you need to stop hanging out in Terminator bars.

:D

jason41987
December 2, 2012, 01:37 AM
that buffalo bore stuff looks promising for 44 special.. anyone know the pressures on them?

jmr40
December 2, 2012, 08:26 AM
I had several 357 revolvers untl I bought my 1st 4" 629. After shooting it a while, and doing a little measuring I sold every 357 I owned and bought a 2nd 3" 629. I found that the 629 actually weighed LESS than my 4" GP-100 and 686. The cylinder was only 1/8" thicker across and they would fit in many of the same holsters as my 357's.

I have shot quite a few 44 Specials through them, but for SD settled on a 44 mag load with a 240 gr HP @ 1100 fps. It is far more pleasant to shoot than any hot 357 load. Less blast and recoil. And in my opinion would be a far more effective SD load. I'm sure that load could be duplicated, or come very close to in a 44 Special case for guns that won't take 44 mag's.

I think it is an excellent idea.

meef
December 2, 2012, 02:05 PM
jason41987: that buffalo bore stuff looks promising for 44 special.. anyone know the pressures on them?

I don't see where they list the pressures, but this info from their description should put to rest any concerns about overly hot loads.

This load was developed to be used in ALL/ANY 44 SPL firearms including Charter Arms. Our other heavy 44 SPL loads exclude the Charter Arms as suitable for use with them. Due to popular request to make a potent defensive load in 44 SPL that can be fired in ALL 44 SPL or 44 MAG. firearms, we’ve developed this hard cast Wadcutter 200gr. load. It utilizes a “low flash” powder as nearly all defensive shooting in the US occur in low light when the criminal element is at work and it would place the shooter in a defenseless position if he or she were blinded by the flash of their own gun fire on the first shotAlso:

This load is designed to permanently and quickly disable human threats. The big flat wadcutter nose crushes living tissue as it passes through, unlike mushroomed bullets that are slightly rounded on the nose and tend to slip and slide through living tissue. The crushing action of the flat nose keeps penetration straight and when penetration remains straight, it is generally very deep—deep enough to obtain full penetration on the largest human from any angle. The hard cast construction will not deform on flesh and bone at these velocities so the nose profile remains constant along with bullet path and terminal damage. Noted NYPD “stake out” officer and gun fighter Jim Cirillo used full wadcutters in his 38 SPL revolvers because they incapacitated his human targets with certainty. See our Item 20D (38 SPL)

Expect about 24 inches of straight-line penetration in living mammalian tissue with this load.

This load utilizes a hard cast (not soft lead) properly lubed bullet and will not substantially lead foul your barrel, even if you fire hundreds of rounds.Sounds good enough I'd trust it. But then, I like their stuff a lot. I utilize a number of their different offerings.

wanderinwalker
December 2, 2012, 02:53 PM
I had several 357 revolvers untl I bought my 1st 4" 629. After shooting it a while, and doing a little measuring I sold every 357 I owned and bought a 2nd 3" 629. I found that the 629 actually weighed LESS than my 4" GP-100 and 686. The cylinder was only 1/8" thicker across and they would fit in many of the same holsters as my 357's.

So you'd agree with all I have read and heard where people say the L-frame S&Ws fit better in an N-frame holster and are a bit too big for a K-frame holster?

As for the premise of the OP, I no longer have my .44 Magnum (6" 629) but my favorite load was a 240gr SWC at about 1000-fps. Sure, I got the "if you want to shoot reduced loads get a .45 ACP" a few times. That ignores the fact that my reduced load was still more potent than any .45 ACP load around. At that speed and in a gun the size of an N-frame S&W, I would consider that the upper limit of controllability and power for a social round. Going to 1100-fps with a 240-250gr .44 slug in my mind is well into Magnum territory and now your getting into something better suited for critter control. I still think a .44 Special loaded to 1000-fps with a 200gr bullet would make a great defensive round.

The reason I no longer have the .44 is I have settled on the .357 in the smaller frames as being better suited for me and my uses. The N-frame is borderline too big for me to manage in fast DA fire, but an L or K is perfect. Which I think is also why the .41s aren't more popular; it takes the same frame as a .44 or .45 to house 6 .41s, so most people are going to go with the bigger cartridges. (Same reasoning why .357 and .44 Magnum leverguns get little love with the "general public"; if they're going to carry a rifle it might as well be in a "real" rifle round.)

jason41987
December 2, 2012, 07:36 PM
i love pistol caliber lever actions.. i like being able to go on a hunting trip carrying a box of only one kind of ammunition, and if i run out in the rifle i can just take it from the handgun.. great concept and saves a lot of money too when reloading a good general purpose round for both

my point on the 44 mag though is it is a pretty big handgun.. theres a lot of "beef" on these to handle the pressure, the recoil, and the sheer concussive force the round has on the metal and for what?..

i dont really see a purpose for most 44 magnums out there... surely im not going to carry one of these things concealed.. heck, ive read court cases where the fact a 10mm came into question as an attempt to say the guy shooting out of self defense was out to kill and that has about half the power of the 44 mag, besides weight, theres a lot of recoil which does lead to slower follow up shots and i just dont see much practical purpose for it unless im outdoors in grizzly country

ive seen some 44 special only handguns that were pretty light, easy to handle, could handle the +Ps as well but it seems most people dont make them anymore because more people are obsessed with massive magnum revolvers... i dont know, maybe im missing something here.. it just seems like in the world of revolvers, the general population avoids practical and goes straight for hollywood huge

jason41987
December 2, 2012, 07:41 PM
let me use this as an example...

ruger redhawk 4 inch barrel 44 magnum... 47 ounces
smith and wesson 629 4 inch 44 mag...... 41 ounces
charter arms bulldog 4 inch 44 special.... 23 ounces

granted the charter is a 5-shot... it seems to me like a better defense/carry revolver than any 44 mag out there

saltydog452
December 2, 2012, 08:14 PM
Post #1 was framed as an either/or. Given that, I'd have to go with a .357. The reason, I 'think' its just about the most versatile center-fire handgun ctg available.

sd.

joneb
December 3, 2012, 12:59 AM
I have a 44spl/44mag and 38spl/357mag and like them all. I am also interested in the 41 magnum, I think this maybe the ultimate revolver cartridge but I have never shot one :(

jason41987
December 3, 2012, 04:28 AM
if you could get a 41 special on a 357 mag frame loaded to muzzle energy levels similar to the hot .40S&Ws i think it would be a very nice carry package

lower pressures would mean you could get by with slightly thinner cylinder walls and .41 isnt a big jump from .357, on the right revolver it could work

jmr40
December 3, 2012, 04:08 PM
my point on the 44 mag though is it is a pretty big handgun.. theres a lot of "beef" on these to handle the pressure, the recoil, and the sheer concussive force the round has on the metal and for what?..



Have you actually measured and weighed some guns, or are you just assuming. When most people ask these questions they are comparing a standard 4" Gp-100 or S&W 686 with a 44 mag. When you use those guns as your benchmark a S&W 629 with a 4" barrel is 1/2 oz heavier and will fit in most of the same holsters. You don't have to use full power loads in a 44. Mid range loads are fine for 99% of applications and full power loads are available if needed.

Sure, you can use a smaller framed 357 with a shorter barrel, but if you look at the real world ballistics from 357's with shorter barrels you will find that 9mm+p will equal or often out perform it in an even smaller more compact gun. If you want a full size revolver there is no reason to choose 357 over 44.

CZF
December 3, 2012, 04:31 PM
Either of these two Double Tap loads were enough of a +P or even Magnum load for me
out of the 3 inch .44 Bulldog.
http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb26/czrami/DT-357%20SIG/DOUBLE%20TAP%20-Summer%202012/DOUBLE%20TAP%2044%20SPECIALs/DT-Old-large.jpg
http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb26/czrami/DT-357%20SIG/DOUBLE%20TAP%20-Summer%202012/DOUBLE%20TAP%2044%20SPECIALs/DTlong.jpg
They put big holes into the targets.
http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb26/czrami/DT-357%20SIG/DOUBLE%20TAP%20-Summer%202012/DOUBLE%20TAP%2044%20SPECIALs/DT6.jpg
Perfect if someone is looking for hot .44 Special loads for personal
or trail defense.


That said:

I'm a confirmed Ruger LCR junkie and truly wish that Ruger would
offer a Security Six or even GP 100 sized polymer framed .44 Special.

Others have wished for the same.

jason41987
December 3, 2012, 07:20 PM
ive never actually fired the LCR... fired a friends SP101 and absolutely hated it... it fit my hand about as well as a shoe... just utterly uncomfortable for my large hands... i tend to need a six shot for my hands... still though, i should give something like the LCR a try

jhvaughan2
December 3, 2012, 11:15 PM
I agree that you can only be dead once. The 44 magnum was not made because the .44 special could not stop the bad guy. 44 special was doing just fine with that.

Self defense is about shooting flesh and bone at < 10 yards. Anything else is probably combat.

.44 special, 45 Colt, 45, ACP. Honestly has anything really surpassed them for stoping people in self defense situations?
(note: I don't even carry .4x for SD.)

22-rimfire
December 4, 2012, 12:25 AM
Interesting thread. I'm not going to run out and buy a 44 Spl revolver as there really aren't many choices, but I do see the merits of the caliber in a smaller frame size relative to the 44 Mag for self defense.

For me, the 38spl is my choice for self defense in a revolver and 40 S&W in a semi-auto.

As a hunting caliber, I see no advantage over a 41 mag, 44 mag or a 45 Colt and couldn't see it as a viable choice unless you already own one.

jason41987
December 4, 2012, 01:33 AM
22-rimfire, 38 special in a revolver but 40S&W in an auto?.. if someone was manufacturing 6-shot 41 specials on a 357 frame would you switch to that?

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